Crashing Wings

[pineapple head]

Hi all......
We were doing Crashing Wings tonight in class and i am now not completely convinced that the initial clearance of the arms would actually shift an oponent that actually wants to really hurt you.
No matter how much you sink deep into the stance and deliver a powerful strike with your elbows , are you going to shift a commited attacker????
I believe this would only work if you intercepted the bear hug before the grab was actually on.

Have a nice day.

:)

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by pineapple head

Hi all......
We were doing Crashing Wings tonight in class and i am now not completely convinced that the initial clearance of the arms would actually shift an oponent that actually wants to really hurt you.
No matter how much you sink deep into the stance and deliver a powerful strike with your elbows , are you going to shift a commited attacker????
I believe this would only work if you intercepted the bear hug before the grab was actually on.

Have a nice day.

:)

Some of the techniques are designed to be done during the "attempt" or before it is locked in I guess.

[headkick]

Originally posted by pineapple head

Hi all......
We were doing Crashing Wings tonight in class and i am now not completely convinced that the initial clearance of the arms would actually shift an oponent that actually wants to really hurt you.
No matter how much you sink deep into the stance and deliver a powerful strike with your elbows , are you going to shift a commited attacker????
I believe this would only work if you intercepted the bear hug before the grab was actually on.

Have a nice day.

:)

Think about what you're after with the 'Crashing Wings'. Get the attacker to release. Possible options could be throwing your head back to head-butt them before dropping into the horse with the downward elbows. Maybe then break off a finger or two to get them to let go. Perhaps a heel down the shin to stomp the instep.

Just ideas... After all, that's what crashing wings is teaching you: one possible way to defeat that attack.

R

[cdhall]

Originally posted by pineapple head

Hi all......
We were doing Crashing Wings tonight in class and i am now not completely convinced that the initial clearance of the arms would actually shift an oponent that actually wants to really hurt you.
No matter how much you sink deep into the stance and deliver a powerful strike with your elbows , are you going to shift a commited attacker????
I believe this would only work if you intercepted the bear hug before the grab was actually on.

Have a nice day.

:)

I believe it works against an actual grab if you can employ some or all of these methods which we teach for this technique:
1. Drop your weight when you step off
2. Strike the Radial nerve of the wrists with your elbows
3. Continue to track your elbows back to strike the biceps
4. Continue to push your elbows back while keeping your arms tight to your body

Mr. Duffy can reliably make this work although, as you have noticed as well, I sometimes can not make it work against a stronger opponent hanging on tight. Since Mr. Duffy never fails, I assume I am missing something and I may have missed something here in this description as well.
:asian:

[Klondike93]

That sounds a little like myself. I can get it to work against someone my own size or smaller, but against a bigger stronger one I tend to struggle a bit. I do think it's all in the details though, the strike with the elbows to the radial nerve in the arms is where I think most mess it up.

Also you could add a center knuckle strike to the backs of the hands like in Sprialing Twig.



:asian:

[tarabos]

you really need to dig those elbows in well to get the desired effect, and sometimes you have to do it a few times. I often see people hit the arms with the triceps or back of the arm rather than the elbows, that just won't cause enough pain for them to let go of you.

don't forget the "softening" techniques described above as well (headbuts, shin scrape and foot stomp, reaching behind and going for an eye gouge with the thumbs, bending back a finger...). sometimes a guy is just too strong and big and requires a little more work. just remember, when you do it for real, it usually isn't pretty, and won't be as smooth as when you do it on someone that is dummying for you. Use all the tools you have and try to stay relaxed, relaxation can really help.

The part of crashing wings that is most often omitted i think however, is the leg check while delivering the elbow before the hammerfist. It's around this time in the cirriculum (depending on the cirriculum) when a student should really start to become aware of the leg check if they haven't already. A good instructor would have brought it to their attention long ago in other techniques, but leg checking can be tough for some to learn. it does take a certain degree of coordination that some do not naturally have.

[pineapple head]

Originally posted by Klondike93

That sounds a little like myself. I can get it to work against someone my own size or smaller, but against a bigger stronger one I tend to struggle a bit. I do think it's all in the details though, the strike with the elbows to the radial nerve in the arms is where I think most mess it up.

Also you could add a center knuckle strike to the backs of the hands like in Sprialing Twig.



:asian:

Center knuckle strike...i also this would be inefective against a guy who is determined...

Thanks for the advice and replys guys on the previous..:cool:

[Kempojujutsu]

After doing your stun, and they have loosen their grip try spinning inside there arms. Now you are in a bear hug from the front, with all your weapons facing the attacker. I have done this many times in are class. Also could do elbow to face, palm heel to groin, side step and step behind them for a scooping throw or winding throw, hook the elbow and do arm drag type throw to the front.
Bob :asian:

[pineapple head]

Originally posted by tarabos

[The part of crashing wings that is most often omitted i think however, is the leg check while delivering the elbow before the hammerfist. It's around this time in the cirriculum (depending on the cirriculum) when a student should really start to become aware of the leg check if they haven't already. A good instructor would have brought it to their attention long ago in other techniques, but leg checking can be tough for some to learn. it does take a certain degree of coordination that some do not naturally have. [/B]

Ever since i started Kenpo my instuctor has always insisted that we must check the leg/knee at all given oppertunities.

Maybe a kick to the shin with your heel....together with a reverse head butt.

Hope i never have todo this for real...haha:confused:

[cdhall]

Originally posted by pineapple head



Center knuckle strike...i also this would be inefective against a guy who is determined...

Thanks for the advice and replys guys on the previous..:cool:

I respectfully disagree with you here. If you have ever been struck in the back of your hand with a center knuckle strike, you will let go. I can do this every time. Also, it has a good chance of breaking some of the metacarpals in your hand. If the strike is insufficient at first, then hit and "rub" with your knuckle a bit, this also works well and I may be including it in my assertion that it works "every time."

Also, as to my previous comment, I think there is a nerve point just below the elbow/up from the radial nerve at the wrist that you can strike if you can't hit the radial nerve at the wrist. Then you can continue as I described by going into and against the biceps with your elbows. I may check on this in class tonight if I can remember.
:asian:

[tarabos]

Originally posted by pineapple head



Ever since i started Kenpo my instuctor has always insisted that we must check the leg/knee at all given oppertunities.



Then you my friend have a good instructor...:)

my other point that was not made as strongly is that for some, it takes more time than others for the leg check to come naturally. the problem arises when the checks are not stressed enough and the necessary practice that is needed never happens.

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by pineapple head

Hi all......
We were doing Crashing Wings tonight in class and i am now not completely convinced that the initial clearance of the arms would actually shift an oponent that actually wants to really hurt you.
No matter how much you sink deep into the stance and deliver a powerful strike with your elbows , are you going to shift a commited attacker????
I believe this would only work if you intercepted the bear hug before the grab was actually on.

Have a nice day.

:)

PH,

There is the idea, that if it is a low hug, the points of your elbows should come crashing down on the high points of their forearms. Disrupting the neuro-muscular group on the forearms can not only open the grip but also have a tendency to nail the attacker to the ground a bit....being that you are sinking with your weight as well. Remember also that there are five points of the elbow (top, bottom, side, side and front.....imaging the elbow bent and pointed forward), you are using the front point. As there is nothing wrong with prefixing, inserting, etc., the base move has always served me well in the first move.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

[Roland]

I mean, why spend all that time working on getting his arms off if you fail in the first attempt?

[headkick]

Originally posted by Roland

I mean, why spend all that time working on getting his arms off if you fail in the first attempt?

No, just loosen his grip so you can capture his leg and introduce your elbow to his chin.

R

[Blindside]

If you fail to get him to release his face/chin will likely be within the arc of your elbow. If you knee check him hard enough you will both go to the ground.

Most kenpoists I know don't like going to the ground....

If the guy grabbing you is a good wrestler, you may be looking at a suplex if you don't get him to release. Of course if he is a good wrestler, you are probably going down regardless, given that he has already gotten ahold of you.

[Doc]

I guess the technique manuals really don't tell you "how" to do a technique as some suggest. If it did, this section on techniques would probably not exist. Everyone talks about the "way" they do it, not "how" it should be done because it only exists for the individual.

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by Doc

I guess the technique manuals really don't tell you "how" to do a technique as some suggest. If it did, this section on techniques would probably not exist. Everyone talks about the "way" they do it, not "how" it should be done because it only exists for the individual.

Mr. C.,

Nothing happens without an instructor, and we have no idea what version this student has, or what type of an instructor they study with. I respect your time in the Arts and I hope you don't take this as some type of attack, but you sound like your committed to discrediting Parker's final material. I know you were friends, and that you have strong feelings and respect for him, I'm only sharing what your post sounds like.

Lastly, this is a forum..........that's why people talk about the why's and how's.......because the communication is what is enjoyable, not withstanding learning a few things.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

[Les]

Originally posted by Wes Idol


Nothing happens without an instructor, and we have no idea what version this student has, or what type of an instructor they study with.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems


Wes,

The poor guy has me for his instructor, but despite that he's doing pretty well, having recently been promoted to Purple Belt.

As to the version of Crashing Wings, we're pretty much working with the version in the IKKA Manuals.

The original question came up in class, and while I answered it then I also suggested that Gary post it here.

It has been interesting for both he and I to compare the answers here with the ones I gave in class at the time.

I think we have both learned something from it.

Les

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by Les



Wes,

The poor guy has me for his instructor, but despite that he's doing pretty well, having recently been promoted to Purple Belt.

As to the version of Crashing Wings, we're pretty much working with the version in the IKKA Manuals.



Les,

No offense intended. I was more talking to Ron Chapel about his post, as opposed to the student in question.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

[Seig]

Wes,
I am just submitting a piece of friendly advice. Mr. C and Doc are two different people, with different views and approaches. Each does what they believe to be the best with what they were taught. While I may disagree more or agree more with one than the other, they each are travelling their own journey.
Respectfully,
Seig:asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by Seig

Wes,
I am just submitting a piece of friendly advice. Mr. C and Doc are two different people, with different views and approaches. Each does what they believe to be the best with what they were taught. While I may disagree more or agree more with one than the other, they each are travelling their own journey.
Respectfully,
Seig:asian:

Thanks Les, and Seig. It's always amazing to me how some people see and interpret things from their own perspective than try to assign it to the writer. Some folks are just waaaaay in left field and don't seem to, or want to understand anything. Those type of people are not worth a response because where can you go but down?

"Common Sense" is an oxymoron. Common sense is no longer common.

[Doc]

Originally posted by brianhunter



Some of the techniques are designed to be done during the "attempt" or before it is locked in I guess.

No sir. What would be the point of "breaking the grip" of someone who hasn't really grabbed you? All the "attempt" techniques are labeled as such according to Ed Parker's WOK. Believe me, he knew what he was doing. If a technique "idea" is defined as a "rear bear hug, arms free," than the idea of the lesson plan in the WOK is to force you to examine that particular assault. The "teachers" should have the answers without turning such techniques into "attempts," which do not teach you how to defend yourself when you are really grabbed.

Unfortunately most teachers are lacking in this area because the "ideas of extrication" are not included in Motion-Kenpo materials, only the assault is represented. So if a "teacher" is a product of Motion-Kenpo, he is not likely to have such knowledge without further assistance from someone with that expertise within Kenpo, or going outside of Kenpo to acquire information.

However the information is in Kenpo, and most of the pre-motion Seniors can share it with you should you seek them out. What do you bet Dave german doesn't have an answer? Or Sigung LaBounty, (it's gonna hurt). Don't you find it interesting that the "grab" techniques are always the hardest ones for people to understand? And they comprise 2/3 of the lesson plan technique ideas in the WOK. Ummmmmm.

[Seig]

Most of the grabbing techniques have the answers in them.You have to look for them though. It requires employing things such as leverage and knowing your center of gravity, just to name two. I have learned much simply by reexamining the techniques rather than simply employing them. It seems to me that quite a bit of the material is designed to be thought provoking as wellas practical. It's not enough to be a trained chimp. We are Men and Women with a God given gift for intellect. That very same intellect should allow us to apply logic and learn insight, not to simply regurgitate material.

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by Seig

Wes,
I am just submitting a piece of friendly advice. Mr. C and Doc are two different people, with different views and approaches. Each does what they believe to be the best with what they were taught. While I may disagree more or agree more with one than the other, they each are travelling their own journey.
Respectfully,
Seig:asian:

Seig,

Thank you for your help and concern. Very creepy, I must say. If they are two people, why do they use the same name, same sign off and same voice? Strange world we live in.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by Doc



Thanks Les, and Seig. It's always amazing to me how some people see and interpret things from their own perspective than try to assign it to the writer. Some folks are just waaaaay in left field and don't seem to, or want to understand anything. Those type of people are not worth a response because where can you go but down?

"Common Sense" is an oxymoron. Common sense is no longer common.

What from left field are you talking about? I'm doing my best to speak to with respect, regardless of the sardonic tone of your post. Very easily it can be to speak poorly of one another, either directly or towards others in front of each other.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems

[Seig]

Originally posted by Wes Idol



Seig,

Thank you for your help and concern. Very creepy, I must say. If they are two people, why do they use the same name, same sign off and same voice? Strange world we live in.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com
No, Mr. Dennis Conatser aka Mr.C uses the Golden Dragon screen moniker.

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by Seig


No, Mr. Dennis Conatser aka Mr.C uses the Golden Dragon screen moniker.

Seig,

I feel very certain that I was the first to refer to those two by Mr. C....as well as many others by the first letter of one's last name. So yes, I do know that "Doc" and "Golden Dragon" are two different people. I thought you were saying "Doc" is two different people.

But once again, thank you for your kindness.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

[Seig]

Originally posted by Wes Idol



Seig,

I feel very certain that I was the first to refer to those two by Mr. C....as well as many others by the first letter of one's last name. So yes, I do know that "Doc" and "Golden Dragon" are two different people. I thought you were saying "Doc" is two different people.

But once again, thank you for your kindness.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com
Ok, was not aware that you knew both men. Thank you for the setup, but since I do not know Doc that well, I will have to refrain. All I know is that we all have different interpretations and we will not all always like one another.
Seig

[Doc]

Originally posted by Seig


Ok, was not aware that you knew both men. Thank you for the setup, but since I do not know Doc that well, I will have to refrain. All I know is that we all have different interpretations and we will not all always like one another.
Seig

Another long string because one person doesn't understand what is obvious to many others. Seig Sir, you are all right in my book, agree or disagree. We can always examine and enjoy the process with intelligence.

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by Doc



Another long string because one person doesn't understand what is obvious to many others. Seig Sir, you are all right in my book, agree or disagree. We can always examine and enjoy the process with intelligence.

No misunderstanding here. But a very interesting Spin-Doctoring on your part.

WI

[Goldendragon7]

Well, I Have went by Mr. C for about 26 years...... lol........ but Ron ChaP'el also has a last name that starts with "C" and some refer (I'm sure to him in his circles as the same)

Im so confused..........:rofl: :boing2: :wah: :idunno:

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Well, I Have went by Mr. C for about 26 years...... lol........ but Ron ChaP'el also has a last name that starts with "C" and some refer (I'm sure to him in his circles as the same)

Im so confused..........:rofl: :boing2: :wah: :idunno:

No biggie, DC. I knew who I was talking to all along (not withstanding two seconds of a miscommunication with Seig). Then as Seig and Les were talking about two separate things, which didn't support anyone's point, perse, RC decided to thank them for their support and Spin Doctor it around into "Some people just don't understand".....basically turning into a strange discrediting of me. All very odd.

WI

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Wes Idol
Turning into a strange discrediting of me. All very odd.


Well, no discrediting towards you was intended!!

:)

:asian:

[GaryM]

Guys, I must very respectfully disagree with pretty much the whole philosophy of the technique as everyone on this thread has written it. Yes you are hitting nerve points ect. NO you are not trying to 'break the hold'. As you go to the side and strike and squat down you are trapping his arms and placing all the weight on his one leg and putting strain on his back in an awkward position. This works every time, try it before you pillory me. From this point there is no defence against the rest of the technique because his arms are trapped. Gary

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Well, no discrediting towards you was intended!!

:)

:asian:

Then what was Ron Chapel doing? It definately looked like he was slingin crap at Wes, while placing the credit squarely at the feet of Seig and Les.

They weren't discrediting Wes, but Chapel certainly was. (You know that as well as I do).

Sincerely,
-B- (http://www.geocities.com/williamtlear) :asian:

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
Then what was Ron Chapel doing? It definately looked like he was slingin crap at Wes, while placing the credit squarely at the feet of Seig and Les.

They weren't discrediting Wes, but Chapel certainly was. (You know that as well as I do).

Sincerely,
-B- (http://www.geocities.com/williamtlear) :asian:

Doc's initial post ... The one that seemed to set this whole thing off was nothing that he has not said before regarding the interpretation of EPAK technique... Not a really big interpretation issue there. His next post was muchas I probably would have done in the face of continued mudslinging ... towit: An indirect reference to Wes thinking that everything Doc says is a personal affront to him.

Good grief... I thought we had gotten over the ganging up and fighting/bickering like little old men.

Dan

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Sigung86
Good grief... I thought we had gotten over the ganging up and fighting/bickering like little old men.

Dan

Agreed! I for one am very tired of seeing this time and time again.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Brian Hunter
Some of the techniques are designed to be done during the "attempt" or before it is locked in I guess.


Then what happens if you are to slow to stop the "ATTEMPT"? What is your plan of action from this particular point.


CDHall
-I sometimes can not make it work against a stronger opponent hanging on tight.

-I respectfully disagree with you here. If you have ever been struck in the back of your hand with a center knuckle strike, you will let go. I can do this every time.... If the strike is insufficient at first, then hit and "rub" with your knuckle a bit, this also works well and I may be including it in my assertion that it works "every time."


You can make it work "every time", but you can't make it work when someone holds on tight or is bigger than you?


Blindside
If the guy grabbing you is a good wrestler, you may be looking at a suplex if you don't get him to release. Of course if he is a good wrestler, you are probably going down regardless, given that he has already gotten ahold of you.


I agree, He doesn't even have to be a good wrestler, he just has to have already made up his mind that you are going to the ground and you will undoubtably be there.


Various
If the strike is insufficient at first, then hit and "rub" with your knuckle a bit....

...you really need to dig those elbows in well to get the desired effect, and sometimes you have to do it a few times...


How much time do we have to deal with the situation? In another thread, we discussed how grabs are generally precursors to such things as throws, takedowns, and strikes. You don't have a whole lot of time to establish your defense before the scenery changes.

Just some thoughts.