Long 3

[ikenpo]

When I first learned this form I thought it was very boring. I think I was introduced to it with that kind of attitude and I adopted it. It wasn't until later that I could appreciate the value of the form.

The questions I have are 1) at the end of destructive twins I noticed on Mr. Billings site he listed to...

5. With that left hand, grab them and pull them into a right reverse punch as you shift into a horsestance facing 10:30.

6. Execute a right push-down block as you pull back slightly; execute a right reverse punch again to the attacker's solar plexus.

7. Execute a right backfist to your attacker's face.

Here are my questions...is the grab after the spear hand to the eyes "new", I didn't learn that grab back in 80's, it seems like a logical move. Also, when you reverse punch at step 6 doesn't the opponent grab your hand? and does the "right push-down block" come out/or after a mini figure 8 that gets your hand free from that grab?

Finally, what are the main points to be taken out of this form?

Thanks, jb:asian:

p.s. This isn't picking on Mr. B's site, but he has nice enough to list the info so I'm using it for reference and as a learning tool. I am very grateful for this tool, as are many others I'm sure.

[Goldendragon7]

the grab has been in for years..... just depends who you learn from.

Step 6 ...... no it is a seperate move.... a wrist release.

Main Points to this form:

1. How to use a horse stance as a transitional
Point of Reference when moving from one side of a
technique to another.

2. Various attacks of the Web of Knowledge:
a. Grabs: single wrist front
double wrist front
off shoulder front
one shoulder - side
two shoulders - side
b. Pushes: 2 hands front
c. Hugs: arms free rear
Holds: Full Nelson - rear
d. Locks: double armlock - rear
Chokes: two hand front

3. Various principles contained within the
Individual techniques.

4. The ability to perform with equal agility on
either side of the body (right or left).

5. The use of an ideal positioning of the body as
a Point of Reference which will enable you to
move rapidly, easily, and without hesitation.

6. The benefits of the use of BODY FUSION.

7. The need for instantaneous action or reaction
that ignites and bursts from inside out with
repetitive succession.

8. The importance of HARNESSING THE FORCE.

9. The employment of INTERCEPTING FORCES during
your defensive or offensive action.

10. The ability to observe and evaluate all
surroundings without concentrating on any one
specific area.

11. Viewing your particular predicament by taking
fleeting glances.

12. The use of SYMMETRICAL MOVEMENTS to develop
naturally flowing CORRESPONDING ANGLES in
both your basic and sequential movement. This
will ultimately lead to better balance in
your transitional moves.

13. The correct manner and value of TWIRLING.

14. The repetitive emphasis on ALIGNMENT to
insure the precise adjustment of your torso
and limbs so that they are arranged in
direct line with each other for the purpose of utilizing total body mass.

15. Stresses the importance of ARTICULATION OF
MOTION.

16. The proper use of COUNTER ROTATION, when
reversing the action and path of your torque,
or twirling in the opposite direction from a
previous twirling move.

17. How to use GRAFTED TECHNIQUES.

18. How to defend against simultaneous flank
attacks by two men.

19. Others.......

:asian:

[Michael Billings]

Dennis,

Nail it down so it can't wiggle away.
Thanks for more "Notes"

Oos,
-Michael

[ikenpo]

Yeah, real good stuff. Thanks for the additional info when we talked yesterday as well.

jb:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

get anything new?
:asian:

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

get anything new?
:asian:

What is articulation of motion?

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

(1) The combination of individual basics into a sequential flow of uninterrupted motion whereby each basic move remains "crisp" or sharp in its application.

(2) The extemporaneous use of basic combinations where, regardless of number, each move is delivered with clarity and precision..

:asian:

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

(1) The combination of individual basics into a sequential flow of uninterrupted motion whereby each basic move remains "crisp" or sharp in its application.

(2) The extemporaneous use of basic combinations where, regardless of number, each move is delivered with clarity and precision..

:asian:

Interesting. What is the difference between technique, combinations and articulation of motion?

How do movements become extemporaneous in a form?

:asian:

[Michael Billings]

Dennis,

Maybe you stressed, or having the chance to read it again, some areas I had not paid attention to. My notes are probably similar to yours circa 1990, but the work you have continued since, your notes from travelling with and for Mr. Parker, is something I cannot ever get on my own.

I place new emphasis on:

The need for instantaneous action or reaction that ignites and bursts from inside out with repetitive succession.

I am not sure I know what you mean by "The importance of HARNESSING THE FORCE." Then again maybe I do know. Are you talking about a synergistic concept? You know, Height, Width, Depth (Grav. Marriage, Rotation, Body Momentum) sychronized with correct Bracing Angles, Weapons, Targets, Angles of Entry, Angles of Incidence (to create the most devestating strike possible) and Body Fusion, while Borrowing Force to create a strike or technique that is greater than the sum of it's parts?

And of course, Intercepting Forces is one of my favorite examples of Physical Physics in Kenpo.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

[Goldendragon7]

:wink:

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

:wink:

:asian:

Stop using all that AK terminology, you guys are beginning to infect me, and no antidote is avaiable!:eek:

[Goldendragon7]

Resistance is futile!!

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Resistance is futile!!

:asian:

Could be. I picked up an orphaned AKKI person last nite in class. Let's see who converts who!:eek:

[Goldendragon7]

Anybody know?

:confused:

:asian:

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Anybody know?

:confused:

:asian:

I didn't know it had a nick name... do they all?


:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

:asian:

[Rainman]

Don't tell me short 2 is called "cat set":flammad:

:rofl:

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Ahhaaa ahaaa ahaaaa .............

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
No..... lol
:asian:

[Rainman]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

okay you win- I don't recall hearing them by anything but their regular names:confused: ever.


:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

:asian:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

:asian:

I have no clue, but does it have anything to do with a mirror, or reflection or opposite since you do each techique right and left?

jb:confused:

[Goldendragon7]

:rolleyes:

[jfarnsworth]

Mr. C.
Does this have something to do with train tracks, or a railroad or am I incorrect once again? I seem to remember Mr. Wedlake once talking about railroading on different lines when you start the form and when you end the form?????
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth

[Rainman]

:lookie:


Well, looks like no one else has this answer.





:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

"Horse Form"

:asian:

[Rainman]

:D

That's pretty cool, and so fitting- Mr. Parker coin that?

:asian:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

"Horse Form"

:asian:

Mr. C,

what are the nicknames for the others?:D

[Goldendragon7]

I'd have to kill ya'

maybe in a private lesson

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Rainman :D
That's pretty cool, and so fitting- Mr. Parker coin that?
:asian:

Yes.

:asian:

[Seig]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I'd have to kill ya'

maybe in a private lesson

:asian:
You're gonna kill him in a private lesson?:eek:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Seig


You're gonna kill him in a private lesson?:eek:

I have a front row seat for that one!:eek:

[Sandor]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

"Horse Form"

:asian:

Mr.C,

The nick name I have for it is the 'Two Horse Form'. Ever heard it refered to as that?

Not that I want to take this O/T but there are lots of nick names for the forms. Maybe that would be a good thread to start too.

For eg. Short III I've heard called 'The long line form' and both of the three's referred to as 'Elbow sets'

anyways..just me a ramblin this was a good thread I shoulda followed it a little more closely when it was posted...

Peace,
Sandor

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by RCastillo



I have a front row seat for that one!:eek:

lol,

Reeeeeaalllly.....:shrug:

jb

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I'd have to kill ya'

maybe in a private lesson

:asian:

I never knew they had nicknames. I'll have to ask my instructor and see if he knows them.

So long 3 is known as the "horse form", hmmmm.......


:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by RCastillo
I have a front row seat for that one!:eek:

"You are Part of the Texas Rebel Alliance and a Traitor....Now take him away!!!!!!!!!!

[Seig]

Darth Conatser is on the loose!

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



"You are Part of the Texas Rebel Alliance and a Traitor....Now take him away!!!!!!!!!!

That figures, that Lord Vader would be an "AK" guy!:wah:

[Seig]

won't work on me! You are merely trying to cloud the.......oooo....look....shiny.......

[Scott Bonner]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I'd have to kill ya'

maybe in a private lesson

:asian:

What is the point of keeping form nicknames secret? Seems silly to me.

[tunetigress]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



"You are Part of the Texas Rebel Alliance and a Traitor....Now take him away!!!!!!!!!!

And you can take my plotting and spying little (Tracy's-brainwashed) brat as well as that evil and treacherous Tracy's housekeeper that keeps sneaking around in here trying to steal the AK secret codes. We will prevail Lord Dragon! The devious Tracy's Alliance WILL be defeated!!! :D

[Klondike93]

Thanks for posting the pic. This whole time I had this mental image of Dark Helmet from Spaceballs.


:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Scott Bonner
What is the point of keeping form nicknames secret? Seems silly to me.

Hi Scott,

I understand your statement however I'd like you to understand my position..... I enjoy the forums as a tool to discuss Kenpo material..... however I would like you to consider that some of us make this our living. I have already come under attack from other Individuals for (putting too much information out) on this and other forums. Now, I hear what other Seniors say to me and I choose to "share" what I want. I do however, at times reserve information for my direct students that assist me in the survival of this world..... Not trying to be silly or selfish ....... I hope you enjoy what I do choose to share and respect that which I do not openly share on this media.

Kenpoaloha,
D

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Hi Scott,

I understand your statement however I'd like you to understand my position..... I enjoy the forums as a tool to discuss Kenpo material..... however I would like you to consider that some of us make this our living. I have already come under attack from other Individuals for (putting too much information out) on this and other forums. Now, I hear what other Seniors say to me and I choose to "share" what I want. I do however, at times reserve information for my direct students that assist me in the survival of this world..... Not trying to be silly or selfish ....... I hope you enjoy what I do choose to share and respect that which I do not openly share on this media.

Kenpoaloha,
D

Ya know, that is one of the reasons I don't go to the other forums too much... To give information freely is one thing and even to ask for it is okay. To demand is a bad thing. Well said Mr. Conatser, I agree.


:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Rainman



Ya know, that is one of the reasons I don't go to the other forums too much... To give information freely is one thing and even to ask for it is okay. To demand is a bad thing. Well said Mr. Conatser, I agree.


:asian:

Yep, you have to be a "Fledgling",like me to get info from a eyedropper from the Golden One!:eek:

[Rainman]

Originally posted by RCastillo



Yep, you have to be a "Fledgling",like me to get info from a eyedropper from the Golden One!:eek:

You have not mastered the force yet... back to basics- slice, parry, fillet-

:jediduel:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Rainman



You have not mastered the force yet... back to basics- slice, parry, fillet-

:jediduel:

Fillet?!? Am I a Kenpoist, or a cook???:confused:

[Goldendragon7]

:idunno:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

:idunno:

Yeah, Do that! My belt can stand up by itself!
(No jokes):soapbox:

[Goldendragon7]

:rofl:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

:rofl:

I'm crushed!:wah:

[Goldendragon7]

STOP THAT RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!

We all love to eat!

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

STOP THAT RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!

We all love to eat!

:asian:

I wanna be a REAL KENPOIST like DC!:wah:

[Goldendragon7]

Cooking is jsut one Phase of a Kenpoists.... just a stage.... stop whinnning.
:shrug:

[jfarnsworth]

Mr. C.
I guess I'm just 1 more phase down on the kenpo food chain. Is that why you told me to eat more when I was over there?
Jason Farnsworth:D

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

Mr. C.
I guess I'm just 1 more phase down on the kenpo food chain. Is that why you told me to eat more when I was over there?
Jason Farnsworth:D

He's setting you up for the kill!

Remember the Twilight Zone episode, "To Serve Man"?

Well, you could be the main course!:eek:

[Klondike93]

It's real easy to forget your also making a living at this as well. Me this isn't a full time job for me, but it's also more than a hobby too. Someday I want to retire from my everyday job and open my own school, but I'm not at all buisness orientated and wouldn't have a clue what I'm doing :(



:asian:

[jfarnsworth]

Twilight Zone??!!
What are you talking about. To serve man.

He's setting you up for the kill!

Remember the Twilight Zone episode, "To Serve Man"?

Well, you could be the main course!

I actually don't think there's enough of me to eat.

Jason Farnsworth:)

[Seig]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

Twilight Zone??!!

I actually don't think there's enough of me to eat.

Jason Farnsworth:)
That's why he told you to eat more.

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by RCastillo



He's setting you up for the kill!

Remember the Twilight Zone episode, "To Serve Man"?

Well, you could be the main course!:eek:

I was watching that episode today on Sci-Fi channel too :eek:



:asian:

[Rainman]

Originally posted by RCastillo



Fillet?!? Am I a Kenpoist, or a cook???:confused:

Can't you do both at the same time? Follow me again Castillowalker: parry, slice, fillet, tenderize (BUTTE STRIKE), OOOPS!:uhohh:


:jediduel:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Rainman



Can't you do both at the same time? Follow me again Castillowalker: parry, slice, fillet, tenderize (BUTTE STRIKE), OOOPS!:uhohh:


:jediduel:

I better copy that down, sounds complicated. I better get Mr. Conatser to do a seminar for me on that one.:erg:

[Goldendragon7]

The sounds of twin Parker knives hitting the sharpening stone........

:samurai:

[Seig]

Have the first aid kits standing by!

[tunetigress]

Oh how I would LOVE to witness GD carving up a little Armadillo!! GD could ya video tape that for me??? Your students could greatly benefit, I'm sure, from seeing those dandy Kenpo Knives of yours in action! Oh, and I'll take mine sliced thinly, and a little on the rare side please! :rofl:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by tunetigress

Oh how I would LOVE to witness GD carving up a little Armadillo!! GD could ya video tape that for me??? Your students could greatly benefit, I'm sure, from seeing those dandy Kenpo Knives of yours in action! Oh, and I'll take mine sliced thinly, and a little on the rare side please! :rofl:

You'll find Tracy Kenpoists, tough, salty. Not reccomended for the "weak hearted!" Texans are steroid grown, no little ones here!

I stand ready, bring on those butter knives!:samurai:

[tunetigress]

Originally posted by RCastillo



You'll find Tracy Kenpoists, tough, salty. Not reccomended for the "weak hearted!" Texans are steroid grown, no little ones here!

I stand ready, bring on those butter knives!:samurai:

And probably far too stringy and overdone to be worth the bother! IKKO people have far more discerning *taste*! GD, he's already pretty dried up, let's make him into jerky!! He might make good 'Beggin' Strips' !!! Hee hee heeeeeee!!! :D

[Doc]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jbkenpo

------The questions I have are 1) at the end of destructive twins I noticed on Mr. Billings site he listed to...

5. With that left hand, grab them and pull them into a right reverse punch as you shift into a horsestance facing 10:30.---------

Actually it is not a grab but a counter wrist-flex (as I learned it)

------6. Execute a right push-down block as you pull back slightly; execute a right reverse punch again to the attacker's solar plexus.--------

No push down, but a Control Manipulation as you take hi arm to a Bouyant Hand Position creating a Negative Body Posture to accentuate the next move.

-----7. Execute a right backfist to your attacker's face.----

The backfist is not to the face but attacks gall blader point.

----=Here are my questions...is the grab after the spear hand to the eyes "new",----

There is nothing "new." Only what you haven't been taught which will be "new" to you. Dennis knows.

------I didn't learn that grab back in 80's, it seems like a logical move. Also, when you reverse punch at step 6 doesn't the opponent grab your hand?-----

Multi-level answer. See? Now you know why there is a Control manipulation. You're smarter than I thought. Of course if you hadn't messed up I'd be teaching that move in a month or so. :)

Secondly at the lower level it is not a punch but a hip displacement misalign in preparation for a takedown in the Default Technique Sequence as I teach it.

----and does the "right push-down block" come out/or after a mini figure 8 that gets your hand free from that grab?----

That will not extricate your hand or arm.

:asian:

[ikenpo]

Thanks to everyone for the great info.

jb:asian:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Doc

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jbkenpo


You're smarter than I thought. Of course if you hadn't messed up I'd be teaching that move in a month or so. :)

:asian:

OUCH!!!!!!!!!! and ouch......LOL

jb:asian:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by jbkenpo



OUCH!!!!!!!!!! and ouch......LOL

jb:asian:


Good thing I know you only treat those you love this way...:rofl:

jb

[Doc]

Originally posted by jbkenpo




Good thing I know you only treat those you love this way...:rofl:

jb

You got it grasshopper. :asian:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Doc



You got it grasshopper. :asian:

Yeah,

Remember this...

http://www.geocities.com/kenpo_2000/Photopg.html


jb:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

I don't want anyone to know I know you on a personal basis...... geezzzzzzz those are copyrighted photos.....!!

What on earth were you thinking......

:rofl:
:asian:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I don't want anyone to know I know you on a personal basis...... geezzzzzzz those are copyrighted photos.....!!

What on earth were you thinking......

:rofl:
:asian:

As they say, be careful who you let take your picture. You never know how they'll use it. :D

jb:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

use them to make me famous!
:D :rofl:

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

use them to make me famous!
:D :rofl:

Or sell them to make money.........:D .

Michael

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by AvPKenpo



Or sell them to make money.........:D .

Michael

Pictures of Kenpo Brotherhood and friendship not for sale here...

jb:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

:asian:

[KenpoTess]

while attending the IKC in Boston, I was amazed to see in just about every upper rank division, Someone performing Long 3 in competition. upper ranking black belts, to even blue belts. And the multitude of ways it was performed astounded me. There were 2 guys representing Mexico in the mens brown belt division and they both did one side of Long 3, all the Left side.. nothing at all done on the right. Some people did the form slow motion, almost isometrically, some combined the techniques into more of a ballet, others when it came to Dominating circles .. Pushed those palm heels out ever so slowly...............I saw Long 3 done as a Team competition form with 3 people doing it simultaneously.

I, myself like the form for most part, it does flow pretty well other than Wings of Silk which I really really don't like :) (coined twirly whirlys with our team :)

just an observation

[Chronuss]

...there is also another term that our team concocted that is...less than politically correct. :D

[Chronuss]

also, with Tess's observations...we also saw varying renditions of Long 1 with sidekicks place throughout...hmph. There was an orange belt that, after the two uppercuts at the end of the form, executed a shoulder roll onto her side, then planted a side kick head high whilst on the floor, then came back up to her feet then did two down blocks, and that concluded her version of Long 1...and she placed... :soapbox:

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Chronuss
There was an orange belt that, after the two uppercuts at the end of the form, executed a shoulder roll onto her side, then planted a side kick head high whilst on the floor, then came back up to her feet then did two down blocks, and that concluded her version of Long 1...and she placed

Yeah, that stuff happens.

[Kenpo Mama]

while attending the IKC in Boston, I was amazed to see in just about every upper rank division, Someone performing Long 3 in competition. upper ranking black belts, to even blue belts.

Hi Kenpo Tess,

I was one of the black belt women that performed Long 3 at the IKC. I have really grown to appreciate this form and all it has to offer. It really was amazing to see the different interpretations of this form. I also enjoyed seeing the "twirly whirlys" shown by various competitors! Some were quite "unique"!

I saw you once at the tournament, but it was just before your division performed forms, and I didn't want to interrupt you then. And well, then the throngs of people descended and I lost track of you! Next time! Sorry to hear about your sparring experience!

Peace,

Donna :asian:

[KenpoTess]

Originally posted by Kenpo Mama
Hi Kenpo Tess,

I was one of the black belt women that performed Long 3 at the IKC. I have really grown to appreciate this form and all it has to offer. It really was amazing to see the different interpretations of this form. I also enjoyed seeing the "twirly whirlys" shown by various competitors! Some were quite "unique"!

I saw you once at the tournament, but it was just before your division performed forms, and I didn't want to interrupt you then. And well, then the throngs of people descended and I lost track of you! Next time! Sorry to hear about your sparring experience!

Peace,

Donna :asian:

Donna,

I'm sorry we weren't able to meet in Boston, but I'm sure there will be another time :) There were sooo many people constantly moving around it was difficult to keep track of anyone ~! We're already planning on making it to Dublin next year, and who know's where we may run into each other before then~!

You're so right about the unique ways the tecs were performed, some made me smile and some made me scratch my head in wonder.. but all in all it was well worth the trip :)

Take care~!
:asian:
Tess

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Chronuss
...and she placed... :soapbox:

Sometimes participants will start their form, "(Long 1,2,3, etc...) modified for competition". Certainly they didn't allow her to place just for a couple of fancy moves added. There must have been some technical proficiency, or the other participants were just that bad...Also, I think we should get away from the idea of instilling judgemental views in our students. If we spend too much time talking about how bad the other guys are doing things, how they aren't "doing it the way Mr. Parker would have wanted", we don't save enough time for our own people to get better.

Also forms are very subjective and can be political. I never took/take forms too personally. In terms of fighting, develop a level of skill so that there isn't any doubt "who got that point". "Lengthen your line" to take a term from Mr. Hyams. "I should of got....", yeah so...you didn't now move on. Get the next five points and don't allow yourself to become mentally trapped by the one (point) that got away. I've been on both sides, "been robbed" and got a point when I "whiffed" a guy. I never complained to the judge in either case. Particularly when they gave me one :rofl: .

Just my thoughts, jb:asian:

[FUZZYJ692000]

Okay, I'm fairly new to the whole competition thing. But to me it seems like if a competitor introduces themselve as studying the system of Ed Parker then they should go by the way he created the form??? To me if a person changes that form in any way it's no longer that form, but a variation of that form. If a person puts changes or modifies lets say Long 3 then it is technically no longer Long 3, they are adding their own creativity, adjustments, and experience into that form. I'm not saying that it is wrong but it's no longer Mr. Parker's Long 3 so it shouldn't be introduced as Long 3 under Mr. Parker's system. I know that there are some techniques that as we gain experience can be modified and adjusted to us due to maybe height differences or maybe our own weakness due to knee problems, back problems, or other physical issues. Even in forms there are positions that may be hindering to others so they may have to change it. But as Chronuss said, a shoulder roll and a kick in Long 1??? That I don't remember in Mr. Parker's Long 1 and it sure wasn't a modification due to handicaps on that persons behalf. Like I said I'm new to the competition thing and could be way out of line on this, but shouldn't something like that fall more under creative forms or something similiar to creative forms?

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by FUZZYJ692000
then they should go by the way he created the form???

So who teaches the way "he created the forms"? And if there are any variations between the way high level instructors do them, which one is right? I'm not going to get into a drawn out "who does the forms the right way discussion"...I'll leave that for others to intellectualize, but I've have had several discussions on various forms with some of those really sharp folks like Mr. C, Doc, Mr. Duffy, etc... and seen some of the videos with Mr. Tatum, Mr. Planas, Mr. Tabatabai, Mr. Fowler, Mr. Bulot and several others. The one thing that is consistant is that there is no consistency. Everyone uses different small tweeks that Mr. Parker showed them, or that they came up with from their training with SGM Parker. I mean the differences aren't huge (well, sometimes they are), but for someone that studies motion they are.

jb :asian: