UFC Style Fighting

[7starmantis]

One of the other threads here, got me thinking about this. Why is it that you never see an accomplished MAist enter one of these tournaments and do very well? I know the "moral" aspect, and all, but aside from that, why is it no one enters who can just finish everyone off in a few min and rake up on them all? Do you think they stop people from competing if they are to "advanced" in a particular style?

Just a thought, what does everyone think ?

[fist of fury]

Beccause those accomplished M.A'ist have nothing to prove. And unless the competetive nature appeals to you why bother.

[7starmantis]

I guess I didn't make my point exactly. I see people in there all the time claiming different MA styles. Why is it they never get anywhere in the tournaments? Why is it there training doesn't prove more useful? Is it lack of training?

7sm

PS I'm just trying to stir up some conversation in here

[Master of Blades]

You know I have no idea!

[KennethKu]

Probably the same reason that most people drive but very few become Formular 1 racers. Many people play baseball but only a few play professionally.

It is a safe bet to say that many can prevail in the ring, but it will probably result in serious injury to the other person. UFC is a sport business. Serious injury is bad for business.

JMHO, of course.

[Kempojujutsu]

I know Tito Ortiz clams he traines 8 hrs a day 6 days a week. This is not teaching, it is sweating your ass off for 48 hours a week. Then probably another 4 to 5 hours per day training other people. Most Martial Artist don't train like this. This way Tito is the light heavy weigth champ.
Bob :asian:

[tmanifold]

I think it boils down to a few thing.
UFC athletes are just that, elite athletes.
Most martial arts contain techniques that are contrary to good sportsmanship. Such as techniques that break limbs for example or attack the eyes.
And third the one on one style in a confined space makes certain techniques more appropriate. Obviously, grappling is at a huge advatage.
Also, very few traditional MAist train full contact for obvious reasons.

Tony

[Master of Blades]

I think another thing is, in many Martial Arts the winner is chosen by his style and so on. In UFC the winner is the one who isnt bleeding on the floor unconsciouse!

[J-kid]

99.9 people MA or not dont have what it takes to do one 10 minute round and two 5 minute rounds. Second alot of MAs dont work agaist a fully rounded fighters . Not only that but you gotta train almost 20 hours a day every day to do UFC fighting. This is not sparing were you hit your openent softly and go for 3 mins or so its full out no holds bars almost fighting., for 20 mins Not many people can take that kind of adrilen DUMP, Your Friend judo-kid.

[sweeper]

(edit) Warning, I seem to have rambaled on in this even more than normal :-p(/edit)

it's all in the training, UFC is a sport, there are rules and to be good you have to be in realy good shape + have alot of experience. Asking why martial artists don't win is like asking why a martial art famed for it's hand tehcniques doesn't produce alot of heavy weight boxing champs.. well boxers are good at what they do. If you want to be good at something you have to go out and do it. You can't do somthing simular a whole bunch and than hope it will translate.. you can't train a bunch in kali than go and be an olympic fencer just because both kali and foiul fencing use swords (or sticks depending on your perspective). even between simular arts there isn't alot of cross over, you don't see alot of good mauy thai fighters winning in olympic TKD (unless they have alot of experience in TKD) just like you don't see alot of good Mauy Thai fighters that only have a TKD backround. Both arts use alot of kicks, but there are diffrent rules and that forces you to use diffrent tactics to win.

If you look at early UFC fights you can see alot of various styles being used, some of them worked and some of them didn't. Some were used in the "wrong way" some the fighters were simply inferior to others.. In my opinion UFC is interesting not simply because of what is/isn't alowed in the ring, but rather because it is so new you get to see the evolution of the style of fighting that people win with, you got to see everything from sumo to mauy thai enter fights and you saw what happened. Over time things have evened out more and fighters look more simular, but in my opinion it's alot of fun to look at how things changed over time.

Back to the question at hand, I have had very little exposure to traditional arts, just one my brother practiced that sounded like it was simular to kempo, and a few that my freinds practice. I don't know any experts on any of them and I havn't set foot in a school that teaches any of them (unless you count kali wich some do and some don't). But form what I have seen of themand what I learn through JKD and Kali, it seems alot of such arts utalise alot of techniques that are illegal in the ring. without alowing things like throught strikes or chokes that are intended to cut off air, or eye gouges or groin shots or small joint submisions or kicking an opponant when they are down, you realy start to cut apart the tactics and strategies that a traditional artist might use, these things seem minor but the add up to someone having to change their whole fighting style and not nessisaraly being prepared for holes that appear because of the change or how to properly exploit holes that apear with their now limited arsinal of techniques.

[Carbon]

I think this topic comes up more than any other discussion.

Its simple numbers people, an average person that goes to a MA school 3 times a week isn't going to beable to compete with a well trained athlete.

Also the average MA competitor or enthuasiast doesn't have the nerve or the ability to do what the people in the UFC do.

This is why you only see a limited number of people join the Navy Seals because its not easy. Some people are cut out for it and no matter how much other people want to do that it just doesn't come to them as easily as some of the other fighters.

I want to ask all the people here who think they are good MAist that say ya I don't have anything to prove. Except you talk about your skillz, I would like to know how many people here have competed in full contact National Competitions and really put themselves up to the test.

Not because they had something to prove, but because they wanted to see how good they really were.

[Deathtrap101]

just to throw my opinion in which is adding on to what just about all of you ahve bin saying. The UFC is a sport it has rules(i havnt watched it but im sure there are rules.)keeping you from using moves that can completely disable an apponent. Traditional MA are taught to disable there apponent as quickly as possible using any means neciserry. ANd depending on the person and situation varies how much damage will be done and how.

just my 2-bits.

[J-kid]

What do you mean, The rules in Ufc there arnt many one no poking the eyes out. two no head butting and no -breaking the neck or so forth so what are you saying Just admit it MAs arnt built to fight people who train in all the loop wholes and are super rounded fighters. I have never seen one MA guy besides Diffrent styles of Kickboxing and jujitsu judo etc, not many arts can meet the challengs of UFC . And what do you mean disable the target, You can still kick punch armbar legbar chock out pritty much 90% street fight 10 % rules,

[fist of fury]

Sportfighting and street fighting are 2 completely different things. What works in the ring won't always work in the street and what works in the street won't always work in the ring or be allowed in the ring. Most m.a.'ist aren't interested in training for sport fighting and I don't know of many street fights that have 3 minute rounds.

[KennethKu]

There are many reasons why people learn MA. Stepping into the ring to knock someone out cold may not necessarily be the primary reason for the majority of practitoners. Most MA practitioners can fight and defend themselves and they are satisfied at that.

[fanged_seamus]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

What do you mean, The rules in Ufc there arnt many one no poking the eyes out. two no head butting and no -breaking the neck or so forth so what are you saying Just admit it MAs arnt built to fight people who train in all the loop wholes and are super rounded fighters. I have never seen one MA guy besides Diffrent styles of Kickboxing and jujitsu judo etc, not many arts can meet the challengs of UFC . And what do you mean disable the target, You can still kick punch armbar legbar chock out pritty much 90% street fight 10 % rules,

:soapbox:
I'm REALLY tired of this silly argument. UFC is NOT real fighting -- it is a simulation, a 1-on-1, no weapons, wrestling bout with some punches and kicks thrown in. Sparring is NOT real fighting -- boxing is NOT real fighting -- the list goes on. All of these things are attempts to SAFELY MIMIC a real fight.

REAL fighting is what a soldier does when he loses his weapon and three guys come at him with bayonets. It is what happened on Iwo Jima and Wake Island and a million other places. There is no "winner" in a real fight, only a survivor.

If some jackass wanting to deck you is your idea of a street fight, then the UFC is for you. If a multi-person drunken brawl is you idea of a street fight, good for you. We all train for that sort of thing....

But what rules are there when someone draws a gun or knife on you? What rules are there when four guys kick in your door to rob you after you answer it? In these confrontations (what I consider "real fights"), there is only one rule: Be the survivor.

UFC fighters are GREAT at UFC fighting; go figure. MAists are GREAT at martial arts. But put a fencing guy in a kendo match, and the kendo guys will clean his clock. Put a UFC guy in the middle of a WWI trench charge, and I bet he lasts all of 3 seconds.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'd like to say that I hope it changes with time. And I hope it doesn't take someone stabbing a knife into your ribcage when you get someone in the mount position to change it.

Tad

[7starmantis]

Yeah, I hear all that about not wanting to hurt people, and not having anything to prove. And alot of people are saying, well, the average MAist who goes to class three days a week. Thats not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the MAist who trains 18 hours a day, who enjoys full contact sports just to puch themselves. I know I can't be the only one out there who pushes themselves to that level! Am I ?
Anyways, I agree with alot of the statements, but I just want to see it one day. I truly great MAist walk in there, not talk trash, just win! You have to admit, it would be awesome to see!!!


7sm

[bscastro]

This is an interesting discussion. I think the UFC and NHB have done alot for martial arts in general. I think it has exposed the pure strikers to grappling and the pure grapplers to striking (notice that few NHB fighters are "purely" a single art anymore). I used to think that grappling was not practical for self-defense until I got tackled by a friend and found myself on the ground wondering what to do. Luckily, it was a friend tackling me. Now I have found grappling to be fun and great exercise as well as possibly useful for self-defense situations.

Also, as many have said, these guys at the top levels are basically pro athletes. In the older UFC you saw guys who were black belts in their style, but now it has become a new animal with guys who train striking, grappling, and conditioning 6-10 hours a day. The top fighters are well-rounded and in good shape. Even the guys like Mark Coleman who they say doesn't have much "endurance" probably has more endurance than a majority of the martial artists practicing.

As another person said, people do MA's for different reasons. I think people who can't fight in UFC (for conditioning for example) could still defend themselves successfully. I think we can enjoy events like the UFC and still practice martial arts very well whether we do no-holds-barred-style fighting or not.

Thanks for reading my babbling post.

Bryan

:)

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by fanged_seamus

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'd like to say that I hope it changes with time. And I hope it doesn't take someone stabbing a knife into your ribcage when you get someone in the mount position to change it.

Tad

I had to respons to this....
I am not saying it is "real" fighting. I never said that. I don't believe it is even close, it is simply a competition like anything else. I jsut am wondering why more MAist don't enter, I though it was curious.
I want to say that I am in no way trying to take away from what our soldiers, and my grandfathers died for, I'm looking at it as a competition and thats all.
And just a side note, I study 7 Star Praying Mantis Kung Fu, I don't use the mount position, and I pity anyone who tries it on me! :D


7sm

[fanged_seamus]

7starmantis,

I was actually responding to the message posted by Judo-kid. I didn't mean for the comments to be directed towards you or your post. This time I'll contribute rather than rant....

I agree that UFC and NHB have shown MANY martial arts weaknesses they'd never considered before (usually in grappling). And grapplers got a wake-up call when the "second generation" strikers came into the ring.

But, IMO, the rules of UFC require an extremely well-rounded (in terms of range) competitor. Few if any traditional martial arts are equally strong at all ranges. So the person who trains to be strong in all ranges has an advantage over someone who is an expert at one or two ranges, but weak in the others. After all, competition is all about exploiting the weaknesses of your rivals....

I think age plays a factor as well. For someone to truly master a particular martial art takes decades, if not a life-time. At the age of 35 or 40, would you be willing to step into a UFC match to face a young, strong opponent who is skilled at many different martial arts? I'm not sure I would be....

Just my thoughts and opinions,
Tad Finnegan

[7starmantis]

Sorry about that!

Very very true, maybe thats it, but I sure would like to see it happen! :)

[tmanifold]

I think that sport fighter can do well on the street for two main reasons.
1. The are excellent athletes with good strength and coordination.
2. The are not afraid of getting hit.

The main argument as I see it is this:
Pro NHB Guy: "NHB is the greatest for the street, Tito would kick ass in a street fight."
Anti NHB guy: "The NHB fighting style is not practical for the street because is features rules and is in a controlled enviroment"

Basically the pro guys say NHB fighters could do well in the street and the anti guys say NHB style fighting isn't good for the street. I look at it this way. NHB style fighting is not street style fighting, period. Second, I had the pleasure of Meeting Oleg Taktarov (the only UFC fighter I have met) once and he was the first guy I had ever met whom I thought could kill me fairly easy. Athletes are athlete are athletes. Whether they practice NHB, WW2 Combatives or Penjak Silat, they will be very hard to beat because of their athletic attributes. I am sorry but the myth of a slow, fat, weak man beating a highly condintioned combative athlete because of his amazing technique are false. However, Those elite athletes that practice a True No-holds barred fighting style would have the advantage.

Tony

[KennethKu]

Since the UFC competitors are strong and fit, and they are going to just take the few strikes you can throw at them and taggle you to the ground. As a striker, your options would be limited to making those few strikes count. How many people can knock someone out with one punch or one kick? Against an average opponent, not uncommon. Now these competitors are not average guys. But I am sure someone can do it.

[Master of Blades]

Wow..........."Just admit it MAs arnt built to fight people who train in all the loop wholes and are super rounded fighters."

That coming from a guy who trains in Martial Arts and wants to fight in UFC. I suggest you think about your wording in future...Cuz your setting yourself up for a big fall.

[Hansson]

I belive that to be a good fighter you need to fight. The second best thing is sparring as close to fighting as possible.

If you train a style where sparring is not allowed, or very restricted because the techniques are 'too dangerous', I think a real fighting situation will come as a total shock. Nothing can prepare you for it.

If you train your art daily with full power on resisting opponents, I think you're in a way better position to handle a real fight. The few dirty tricks, eye gouging and so on, can be applicated by anyone, and you'll have a far greater chance of making them succesfull if you're used to fighting a resisting opponents.

Talking about defending against four robbers or three guys with bayonets is pretty off I think... noone can handle that. Also defending against knife attacks... I'm really talking beyond my knowledge here, I admit that... but I doubt any systems could prepare you so well the odds is on your side...

[J-kid]

To answer fanged over there, Why would you state its not a real fight when 1 no MA or anything else is gonna last under your surcomstances 2 They would proble do alot better then you vs people with weapons 3 what dos WWII have anything to do with UFC fighting or street fight , LAST but not least if you throw anyone right now in the WWII they would die also. Do you think a MA guy is gonna do any better then a UFC fighter , When someone Draws a gun. Thats real lamo think:soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:

[KennethKu]

Here is an article that discuss how to defeat a grappler.

http://www.chihand.com/Archive/FacingAGrappler.htm

[fanged_seamus]

Here are the points I'm trying to make:

1) UFC is NOT real fighting or street fighting
2) To say UFC is the closest thing to street fighting is stretching the truth
3) To say that MA sparring is street fighting is stretching the truth
4) To assume street fighting is a 1-on-1 event a bad assumption
5) Real fights and street fights are bloody, dangerous events where you don't have a winner, only a survivor
6) I do not think a martial artist would do any better or worse than a UFC guy in real fight

I tried to use the example of WWII to show what a real fight is: a life-or-death struggle where the best you can hope for is to walk away from it alive. Drunk guys picking fights and wanting to brawl is one thing (almost any UFC or MA can handle that), but a SERIOUS fight is bad, no matter who you are or what you system you study.

My complaint is this constant belief that UFC is anything other than a contact sport. Same with MA sparring. I don't think anything can truly prepare you for the dangers of a real fight. I was hoping you'd get the point I was trying to make is all....

Now, let me spell out the rest of my points:
1) Training in a MA system (including UFC) is better than not training
2) Training for realistic encounters is best
3) Real fights should be avoided at all costs
4) You can't win in a real fight; you can only survive it

I think UFC has done a lot for the martial arts, and I like how it's expanded the martial arts. I don't believe that MA is superior to UFC (or the other way around), just different. I respect those who train, regardless of system. But I will NEVER believe that UFC-style fighting is close to real, just as I will NEVER believe sparring is close to real.

Hope my points are clearer now...

Tad Finnegan

PS: Hansson said that he thought my examples were "off." I was exaggerating to make a point: real fights are overwhelmingly bad and should be avoided. To assume you can handle a real fight because you've trained in (insert system name here) is idiocy. I don't mean to sound totally pessimistic, but that's the way I see it.

[tmanifold]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

To answer fanged over there, Why would you state its not a real fight when 1 no MA or anything else is gonna last under your surcomstances 2 They would proble do alot better then you vs people with weapons 3 what dos WWII have anything to do with UFC fighting or street fight , LAST but not least if you throw anyone right now in the WWII they would die also. Do you think a MA guy is gonna do any better then a UFC fighter , When someone Draws a gun.

First of all, How do you think Mark Kerr would react if he had to fight some one with a knife? He would probably shoot for the legs because as a wrestler and NHB fighter, that is what he knows best and in stressfull situations you always go with your bread and butter. Not because it is the best thing to do but because it is the first thing that comes to mind.

Second, "what does WW2 have to do with stree fighting?" Did you really think that through? Are you saying H2H in WW2 is easier or harder than Street fighting? If you could survive H2H combat in WW2 then you will handle yourself alright on the street.

Third, You are flat out wrong, that anyone right now would die in WW2. As a former soldier that offends me and I am sure that it would offend anybody who has carried a rifle for there country. Yes some would die, but others would not. I disagree that a UFC fighter wouldn't last in a trench but I also disagree with the statement that "anyone here would die too"

Last, I think that a MA guy who has practiced realistic gun disarms would have an advantage to a UFC fighter Who has only trained NHB style. The odds may still be against the MA guy but when practicing gun disarms the only other option is death for you and yours.

You obviously have a skewed view of street fights. They are not high school fights. If I am fighting on the street it is not because some drunk guy bumped in to me, it is because some one has threatened my family. I have known a lot of people who tread on the wrong side of the law. These people would think nothing of stomping you to death with there friends of pulling a knife if they are losing. One must acount for this is one is preparing for self preservation.


Hey, If you love NHB and are willing to make the take the time to become an elite athlete, more power to you. However, realise you are training for a sport, not self preservation.

Cheers,
Tony

[J-kid]

What i was trying to point out is that the common person wouldnt survive army or not just because of the death ratio , Bombs are droping bullets flying etc. And i was talking about one on one fights where no one pulls out a gun or a knife out of there pocket, MMA is as close as you will get to a street fight without a lawsuit . Just pointing somthing out to you.

[Carbon]

Its funny seamus how you say put a fencer in with a kendo but you say put a UFC fighter in a WWI trench.

Its quite ovbious you are making the comparisons unbalanced. Put any man in a WWI and the chances of his survival are minimal I don't care how good of a soldier he is.

Maybe if you said put a UFC fighter in a Kickboxing, Grappling, or Boxing match and he would probably go farther then the average MAist.

Also 7 person sorry I dont' know your full name. I know for a fact you don't train for 18 hours a day. I'm sorry but this is called physically impossible and you would do more damage then good.

Also if you want to talk about real situations? 4 guys kicking in your door to rob you. Sorry not a likely scenario, maybe if you were working in a place where robbery accured but it doesn't take 4 people to rob a house.

Also what person in the world can disable a crook standing 10ft. away with a handgun? Ya makes you think if he was only 8ft. closer I could do anything but he's not. So what it comes down to isn't whats real or what training you do because I bet UFC fighting has alot more real-world application then most MA styles.

You can pretty much rule out any grappling art in the real world. I would say kicking would be very effective and a boxer is very effective in reality fights.

This is really all I have to say its late and I have to go to bed :) So have fun reading this post.

[Bob Hubbard]

I believe I heard it said that in a street fight, anything goes. The average street thug may or may not be an experienced fighter. The other part of this equation however is that they often travel in packs, and will not wait for you to take em on 1 by 1. They will jump you enmasse and pound you...no refs, not stopping for blood.

The common person cant fight worth beans. They throw haymakers. They swing wide. Put 5 together. Now, you have a problem. Human wave technique works wonders.

As to WW2...I'm glad I wasn't there. 2x glad I wasn't in Korea, and 10x glad I wasn't in Vietnam. I've heard stories...that was enough. I know a guy who was recently in Afganistan...he's got a different look in his eyes now...its scary. (2nd BB Kenpo, had MMA experience)

My grandfather told me a story once..about a unit in the 3rd Army during WW2...guy was a boxer...bragged about how tough he was, how many fights he won, etc... first firefight he froze up. Right after the guy next to him splashed his brains on him. He snapped. So much for the tough guy.

The common person wouldn't survive in the army...thats why they have the training they do. Hell, I can't think of more than 3-4 people that I know who would make it thru basic (I wouldn't).

No one pulls a gun or knife? Read the paper. Talk to the cops.

MMA may be as close to a street fight as you can get legally....

Microsoft Flight Simulator is also as close to flying a plane as you can get without a plane and a pilots licence.

Neither truely prepare you for the reality of the true experience.

If you want to train for a sport, train for a sport. If you want to train for war, train for war. Neither prepares you for the other.

:asian:

[Hansson]

Microsoft Flight Simulator is also as close to flying a plane as you can get without a plane and a pilots licence.

Neither truely prepare you for the reality of the true experience.

If you want to train for a sport, train for a sport. If you want to train for war, train for war. Neither prepares you for the other.


So... the question still remains... how to train for war (if the analogy (?) holds true for a streetfight situation)? Is dirty secret street techniques, practiced in a form, or defense against three opponents, practiced in a form, a better preparation than 'sport' training in full power with resisting opponents in BJJ or Muay Thai? I don't think so, but I'm sure others do.

[The 14th Style]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I believe I heard it said that in a street fight, anything goes. The average street thug may or may not be an experienced fighter. The other part of this equation however is that they often travel in packs, and will not wait for you to take em on 1 by 1. They will jump you enmasse and pound you...no refs, not stopping for blood.

No one pulls a gun or knife? Read the paper. Talk to the cops.

MMA may be as close to a street fight as you can get legally....

Microsoft Flight Simulator is also as close to flying a plane as you can get without a plane and a pilots licence.

Neither truely prepare you for the reality of the true experience.

If you want to train for a sport, train for a sport. If you want to train for war, train for war. Neither prepares you for the other.



You make a great point.
But isn't this just the flavor of the month? Every couple of years one art gets popular and is hailed as almost unbeatable or the most realistic art ever. Back in the 80s, it was the Ninja craze and then god knows what else. Wasn't Jkd huge for awhile ? Just a few years ago it was the Gracie's and Brazilian Ju Jitsu. Everybody and their mothers said it was unbeatable. Now these are all fine arts and I mean no disrespect to anybody. But no art is perfect and to say this art or that art is the greatest ever. Or that that anybody that doesn't do it a certain way, can't defend themselves. Or doesn't know what they are doing, is just silly in my humble opinion.
The UFC and Pride are great and I respect the Martial Artists that participate. But it is in a ring, you are fighting for money, you know ahead of time who you are going to fight, there are TV cameras on. YOU KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT. If you are outclassed and getting your ass kicked, more than likely the ref will stop the fight.
When someone is breaking into your house and you are the only thing that stands between your family and god knows what. Or someone in an alley or bar or mall has decided that it's time for you to die, well that's a whole different ball game. Some people will fight, some will run and some will freeze. No matter what art. You just never know. Just my opinion.
Respectfully Russ

[fanged_seamus]

We're drifting off-topic on this thread, but I want to make my point (once again, hopefully clearly) here. Ignore the exaggerated examples from earlier to make this easy:

I do NOT believe a real or street fight is EVER a 1-on-1, weaponless encounter.

A UFC competitor AND a skilled martial artist should be able to handle a confrontation against a single, weaponless attacker if they have trained for it (after all, that's why many of us take martial arts). But that's a CONFRONTATION, not a fight. Half the time, you can talk your way out of these or walk away.

From my viewpoint, a real or street fight is a multiple attacker scenario, usually with weapons. This is MUCH more common than you are acknowledging. Literally, each week, someone is robbed in my neighborhood at gunpoint. Two to three attackers do the robbing, and they pick single targets (and never more than a group of two). Home invasions occur occasionally, too, and that's usually three to six people, armed, bursting into your house to rob you. Dealing with THESE situations is dangerous beyond belief, and that's what I would consider a "real fight."

I DON'T think MA has a major advantage over UFC in these cases, except at the VERY HIGHEST training levels. I don't think ANY of us are truly prepared to deal with that kind of situation.

My WHOLE POINT is that if you think a street fight is some testosterone-laden frat boy (no offense to any of you on the thread) looking at your girlfriend, you're a fool. Those situations are common, we all train to deal with them, but they aren't "real" from my point of view. It's a confrontation, a puffing up of the chest. In fact, resorting to violence in those cases is a sign that you've already lost the confrontation. UFC, MA, whichever can handle it. But that's not a street fight as I see it.

I'll try to keep on-topic from now on....

Tad

[Carbon]

Ya I agree with you about that fanged_seamus, I mean most street fights are a group of people beating up 1 person because they are to scared to lose a fight.

I don't know what it is, but why are people scared to lose a fight? I mean it doesn't really matter sure you get hurt and such but nothing is proved no one is better than the other person you lost a fight and that is all that it is. You might have a hurt ego but thats about it.

The only thing that pisses me off is when someone knows they have won a fight and are still determined to beat the person and try to mess them up as much as they can for what reason? I don't know.

Its funny how people at my school think they are bad @$$'s because 1 of them and 3 of their friends beat-up 1 person and then think no one can touch them.

[KennethKu]

MA is not the end all, be all security tool , all by itself. If you are talking about total security, you inevitably end up talking about firearms. :uzi: MA is about unarmed combat. Clint Eastwood :"A man got to know his limitation" :D

MA does not pretend to make anyone a Super Human Being. (Unless you are that guy who claims to KO you without touching you , but with his 'GI' or whatever :rolleyes: )

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Carbon


Also 7 person sorry I dont' know your full name. I know for a fact you don't train for 18 hours a day. I'm sorry but this is called physically impossible and you would do more damage then good.


Let me calrify for you, I wasn't saying that I train 18 hours a day, I was refereing to a post earlier about pro athletes who do nothign but train all day as their job. I was saying that there have to be somewhere out there people who train like the pro UFC guys "all day" (that again is an exageration to make a point) but who study MA.

I also want to say that I don't share the opinion here that a MAist is trained to fight an unarmed confrontation against one attacker. Maybe you guys, but I train against multiple attackers with multiple weapons.

7sm

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

........I also want to say that I don't share the opinion here that a MAist is trained to fight an unarmed confrontation against one attacker. Maybe you guys, but I train against multiple attackers with multiple weapons...


How do you handle 3-4 guys coming at you at the same time, unarmed, let alone with baseball bats, lead pipes or machete/samurai blades?

LOL I would hope:

1. Never get into that kind of situation
2. Have a gun with me
3. Run faster than a speedy bullet :D

[7starmantis]

HAHA, I totaly agree with your theories on that situation. I do however train with several buddies those very situations, don't ask me why, but we have this really large imagination I guess!!

Really keeps you in shape though!!


7sm

[bscastro]

I think it is true that fighter multiple attackers is not the most desirable situation. However, I think it helps to train these type of situations because it will expose the nervous system to that type of stress, so that if it does happen to come up (hopefully not for most of us) we might have a clue as to what to do...even if that means finding the nearest exit and running like the wind!

I think the training is not to teach that one can "win" against multiple attackers, but maybe how to handle the stress and look towards "survival."

Bryan

[Hansson]

Originally posted by bscastro



I think the training is not to teach that one can "win" against multiple attackers, but maybe how to handle the stress and look towards "survival."

Bryan

You mean like sprint training? :)

[Zujitsuka]

I just couldn't resist putting my two cents in.

Let me preface my post by first stating that I am not martial arts expert. Nor do I profess to be the toughest guy this side of the Mississippi. I'm a student that became aware of things that I had to work on to be the best that I can be as a martial artist, and be able to defend myself and my loved ones if necessary.

I live in NYC, and I have seen A LOT of people, including my former self, develop a false sense of security in their skills despite the fact that they never tested themselves or their complex techniques in the ring and/or on the mat.

First of all, in regards to streetfighting, most 'street fights' happen where alcohol (and maybe drugs) are in abundance like dance clubs, bars, and concerts.

If you stay alert and sober, and make a few lifestyle changes, and use your GOD-given common sense, you will avoid most 'street fights.'

A lot of people say that real fighting includes eye pokes, biting, head butts, etc.

I have a question for those who don't want to bother with sport fighting because that isn't 'real fighting'...

If you can't punch someone in the face with a 14oz glove, what in the heck makes you think that you can poke them in the eye?

'Sports' like Western Boxing, Kickboxing (in all its forms), and wrestling (in all its forms) help you develop timing, distancing, footwork, endurance, mental toughness, and the ability to "take a licking and keep on ticking" while under fire (i.e. someone is trying to kick your butt).

When you are in a "too deadly to spar" martial art, your pulling your punches and hitting intentionally off target will come back to haunt you. That is what will be programmed into you muscle memory. Hey, you're going to fight the way you train and when you get into a real fight, and your punches and kicks fall short of their target, you very well may have blown your only chance and you could be in deep doo-doo.

Let's be real here, NO ONE is going to just let you walk up to them and apply a joint lock, a throw, or strike them.

A non-cooperative opponent keeps you honest to yourself about what you need to work on, and what is and isn't effective.

Great men like the founder of Judo, Jigoro Kano, took up the martial arts to strengthen his body - to become tougher. And he realized that the only way you can test your technique and conditioning is to actually go against a non-cooperative opponent - NOT AN UKE/COOPERATIVE PARTNER! Thus the advent of what is called "Randori."

Famous Karateka, Mas Oyama is well-known because and his Kyokushin Karate style and its offshoots like Seido Karate are known as "knockout karate." Knocking out who? A non-cooperative, agressive, determined opponent, that is who.

If you are a martial artist, you need to hit some, and get hit some.

How are you going to know what works and doesn't work? Of course everything works against an uke, but the ring and/or the mat will be the laboratory in which you can test technique and learn new things.

Yeah, okay....

Keep on planning to poke a Boxer/Kickboxer or grappler in the eye or kick him in the groin. All of the "too deadly to spar" types always have a great plan - UNTIL THEY GET HIT!

In regards to multiple opponents, you must have superior endurance and you have to be use to being hit - because you will be hit. You have to stick and move...and then RUN! Same thing with weapons. I've seen people stabbed and shanked and if you think that you will have time to stand toe-to-toe with a determined attacker and work you technique and not be cut, you are very mistaken.

Remember, everything works in the dojo and at martial arts demos. If you want to see what will not work, take a field trip to your a popular bar or club during college spring break when excess testosterone is floating around.

"The more you sweat during peace, the less you will bleed in war." - Sun Tzu

Respectfully,

Tyrone Turner
"Zujitsuka"
Queens, NY
http://www.tyroneturner.com

[Zujitsuka]

Further my last post in this thread, in the military, you're given live rounds to shoot at practice targets at the rifle and pistol range. This is how you can develop your skill as a marksman.

Now, the million dollar question: How can you develop your skill as a marksman without every firing live rounds?

Answer: You can't!

Laser tag (i.e. Miles gear) will not let you know if you're truly on target. This is the same as not actually hitting someone who is trying to do the same. Punching or kicking heavybag or a focus mit will not give you a true gauge of your abilities, because they don't hit back.

It wouldn't be so smart to wait until a soldier is in the middle of a battle to then give him/her live rounds. They will not have had the experience of feeling the recoil of the weapon, or the "bang" that goes along with discharging a round.

Peace & blessings,

Tyrone Turner
"Zujitsuka"
Queens, NY
http://www.tyroneturner.com

[Hansson]

Well spoken Zujitsuka...

I also have a hard time recognizing the 'reality' of some people. Of course, it depends on where you live.

Here, in Stockholm, robberies occur pretty frequently, mostly in and around the subway. In most cases, the robbers use knives and do not stab their victims, except from maybe a small cut to scare them. Not a situation where it's worthwhile to fight back (better to just hand them your cellular and wallet).

Situations (I think someone described above) where families out on a day in town are attacked by mad killers do not happen very frequently. Actually, I've never heard of it.

The vast majority of the non-domestic violence is either between criminal groups or at places where alcohol is served (or around these places). If you go out a few times a month you're almost certain to find yourself in a potentially threatening situation. Then it's up to you what you make out of it.

[7starmantis]

I agree that extreme situations do not happen very often, but to say "never" is a little gulible. As a former paramedic in two of the nations largest cities, I can tell you that extreme situations do happen. If it never happens to you, you are doing great! But whats the hurt in being prepared for a situation that never happens to you ? That is the question.



7sm

[sweeper]

ok, first. I don't think this thred was about who would do better in a street fight, a NHB fifghter or a TMA fighter.. It was why don't TMA fighters fight in the UFC, and my post was directed at thet, I didn't say anything about TMA not training full contact or that I didn't..

second who says you are gona use an "illegal" move in the situations you mention? in JKD we use lead finger jabs as feints, they aren't intended to do real dammage, if the slip than you should have another weapon already on it's way to a target, if they don't they just got a finger in the eye.. where it becomes usefull is in grappling and ground fighting where you are relativly imobile, do I do full contact sparring? yes. Do I do ground fighting? Yes. I don't practice UFC style (though I would like to, just havn't had much time) but I do know that if you are grappling it is easy to get a thumb in your opponant's eye.. it's easy to elbo, bunch claw, bite, whatever because your opponant can't get out of the way. What I was saying is there are alot of attacks and counters in UHC style fighting that aren't all that great in a real fight because they ignore some "illegal" tactic. Here's an example I used before, When sparring with one of my freinds that tends to treat sparring matches more like competitions than dynamic training (how I view it) I slipped a punch and shot in kinda high (aorund his waist) he countered with a guilatine choke. He does it every time.. it's a great counter in a situation where groin strikes are illegal.. but when it doesn't matter, than grabbing a good hold of your opponant's sack and pulling down is gona break that lock (unless they are REALY drugged up) (and no I didn't do that, I just tapped him on the cup). I see this thing all the time with people who train in "martial sports" (he haad a judo background), not to say I have much expeience fighting or in any martial sport, or to say I'm a good fighter (I'm none of those things). Just People need to be aware that the slightest rule will totaly change how you fight.. another example would be in JKD we practice alot of our kicks assumming you will have shoes on. We throw kicks diffrent to maximise the dammage you can do because of this. That means when we are sparring low kicks have alot more potential than if we were barefoot because you can in diffrent ways to cxause alot more pain (it's hard to scrape the skin off someone's shin with a bare foot, it's easy with a shoe). That means all other aspects of our training, our deffence, our offence, everything changes because of that small diffrence.. now you go into grappling and you say I can't strike the groin, I can't bite, I can't gouge eyes, I can't break someone's pinky to get out of a hold? well I'm gona have a big dis advantage if I pend alot of time training to do this and how to fight to prevent your oppoant from doing this.. I'm not talking about who would have a better chance in a street fight, Or who would be better off when 4 guys with baseball bats kick in my door (in that situation I'm going out the window and sprinting like the wind..). For the amount of time I spend training (wich isn't much relative to how much NHB fighter train) I think I pritty much optimise my time.

Now to the issue of war.. neither martial art or martial sport is gona prepare you for that.. it hasn't been a large part of infantry training for a long time because if you get there, basicly something has gone wrong.. or to put it another way, why train your least powerfull weapon and niglect your most powerfull? Being a soldier is nothing like being a fighter or an athlete or anything else there may be aspects that over lap but over all they are dissimular.

Now as to who will do better ina street fight, a TMA or a NHB fighter, I would say that deppends.. Alot of people use the example of a very skilled TMA fighting in self deffencs as aposed to a top notch NHB fighter, But I would point out most people that are very skilled in TMA are alot older than top notch competetors in NHB fights, I would say if you wanted to learn to deffend yourself as quickly as posable that something like NHB school would be better than alot of martial arts simply because of the volume of information alot of TMA schools try to teach you, the NHB fighting is more to the point, and if you take into account some other simple factors (like dealing with weapons and fighting multiple people) I think in a relativly short period of time (year or two) you would have a better chance of deffending yourself than in alot of TMA.. This also takes into account that alot of TMA schools aren't all that good on account of their instructors simply being bad (if you had a top notch instructor it might be diffrent). But in my opinion it's a matter of optimisation, a NHB fighter trains in the most basic of basics in an attempt to optimise them where as genneraly you learn a boader spectrum of information in a TMA school.

another aspect would be dealing with high stress situations that would respond with a "fight or flight" responce, in these situations your body goes under some changes, your fine motor skills decrease in acuracy, you tend to act out of instinct and your gross mottor skills genneraly are faster and stronger, you get tunnle vission, you loose depther perception, and many other changes that unless you specialy prepare for could affect either a TMA or a NHB fighter adversly, in those situations (if neither trained for them) I would argue that a NHB fighter would do better, because alot of the techniques that utalise fine motor skills are illegal in MMA fights most techniques trained use gross motor movement, and are trained more (per the amount of time training) than someone who would train both.

and as to the rules of the UFC, there are 31 fouls in UHC fighting, a couple are in regards to it being a match like "no attacking in between rounds" but most are limitations on fighting style.

http://www.ufc.tv/history/rules.asp

If you want to know what is legal and what isn't go there and take a look around.. and Judo kid, If you realy want to be in the UFC I'm supprised you aren't fammiliar with the rules...