boxing stance

[Ric Flair]

Hey guys/girls. I've noticed that there are a few boxing gyms that tell their students to "have a Fencers stance with the forward foot pointing towards their opponent".

I hear this is the wrong way to stance and have balance in a boxing ring since, a Fencer's stance emphasizes mostly on mainly foward and backward movements.

This "fencer stance" would often give a boxer a major disadvantage in a ring if he ever fights another boxer who knows how to move side to side and circle's well.

What are your thoughts and opinions on coaches who teach their students the "fencer stance" instead of the proper boxing stance?

[ajs1976]

Which way is the foot pointing in the proper stance?

[Ric Flair]

Alright, lets say your forward foot is your left foot, and your back foot is your right foot.

They both would be pointing slightly to your right while your body faces your opponent.

front foot is /



back foot is /

shoulders width apart. heel to toe alignment
knee's slightly bent. balance is to be the middle of both your legs.

[BlackSheep]

Hey guys/girls. I've noticed that there are a few boxing gyms that tell their students to "have a Fencers stance with the forward foot pointing towards their opponent".

This is the first that I’ve heard/read about a “boxing club teaching a fencing stance”.

But yes your lead foot should be pointing at your opponent’s center, generally speaking.






Alright, lets say your forward foot is your left foot, and your back foot is your right foot.

They both would be pointing slightly to your right while your body faces your opponent.

front foot is /



back foot is /

shoulders width apart. heel to toe alignment
knee's slightly bent. balance is to be the middle of both your legs.

I don’t know what you mean by a “heel to toe alignment”

I like to add that your feet most defiantly should not be parallel to each other. Also your weight should be on the balls of your feet. And how far ahead your lead foot is placed depends on the type of stance you assume. There are different stances in boxing, for an orthodox stance your feet should be on about a 45 degree line.

[Ric Flair]

This is the first that I’ve heard/read about a “boxing club teaching a fencing stance”.

But yes your lead foot should be pointing at your opponent’s center, generally speaking.







I don’t know what you mean by a “heel to toe alignment”

I like to add that your feet most defiantly should not be parallel to each other. Also your weight should be on the balls of your feet. And how far ahead your lead foot is placed depends on the type of stance you assume. There are different stances in boxing, for an orthodox stance your feet should be on about a 45 degree line.


Yeah the balls of your feet should be an obvious.

Your front foot's toes however should not be exactly pointing towards your opponent. Unless you want to fight just linear and not use your sides effectively.

[Ric Flair]

Yeah the balls of your feet should be an obvious.

Your front foot's toes however should not be exactly pointing towards your opponent. Unless you want to fight just linear and not use your sides effectively.


My coach was simply comparing the stances of a boxer vs a stance of a fencer.

Modernized Fencing for the most part is linear. I heard however the older "combat" fencing utilized circular AND linear attack forms (in regards to footwork)
So the older fencing stance is like today's boxing stance.

Except the few boxing places that tell their boxers to have a modern day linear fencing stance.

[BlackSheep]

Your front foot's toes however should not be exactly pointing towards your opponent. Unless you want to fight just linear and not use your sides effectively.

This is totally wrong!

I’m not up on the history of fencing stances and how they relate to boxing but I will say again, this is the first that I’ve heard/read about fencing stances in boxing.

[bushidomartialarts]

just wanted to say that anybody, and i mean anybody, can learn a lot from watching a boxer's footwork.

[BlackSheep]

just wanted to say that anybody, and i mean anybody, can learn a lot from watching a boxer's footwork.

I like to combine a boxer’s waltz with a wrestler’s whizzer, this is a great way to break the clinch.

[green meanie]

When I first learned how to wrestle I was taught to point my foot forward toward my opponent. When I first made the transition to MMA I took a nasty roundhouse to the side of my knee that wrecked it badly.

When I was finally able to walk again I hobbled into a few boxing clubs and kenpo schools and they taught me to turn my foot in the way 'Rick Flair' described. I'll never point my foot forward again. :)

[Ric Flair]

When I first learned how to wrestle I was taught to point my foot forward toward my opponent. When I first made the transition to MMA I took a nasty roundhouse to the side of my knee that wrecked it badly.

When I was finally able to walk again I hobbled into a few boxing clubs and kenpo schools and they taught me to turn my foot in the way 'Rick Flair' described. I'll never point my foot forward again. :)

lol woooooooooooooooo! I never thought of the injury risk, i just thought the correct boxer stance is a good way to move around your attacker. It was mainly mobility that caught me on to it.

But now I feel this principle/guideline even more because of your injury story. Thanks ;)

[Ric Flair]

This is totally wrong!

I’m not up on the history of fencing stances and how they relate to boxing but I will say again, this is the first that I’ve heard/read about fencing stances in boxing.

Believe it or not but, my coach told me a few coaches he came across taught their students to have the front foot pointed forward with the toes towards the opponent! Only the back leg was ever sideways with these students.

My coach even said he took one of these "fencer boxers" on as a new student, he couldn't break the habit outta the kid though cuz the bad habit has been ingrained in him for over 4 or so years. The kid could only box good forward and backward (linear) and eventually many boxers who knew how to sidestep, circle caught on and beat him almost all the time by sidestepping and circling in with punches since the kid couldn't react quickly enough to side/circle attacks due to his "Fencing forward foot" lol.

My coach said once a boxer has picked up a habit and does it for many years, it is hard for him to change these habits.

[BlackSheep]

http://www.theonetwopunch.com/images/fittip1199.jpg
Here is a guy in a boxing stance. If you were to stand right in front of him his lead foot would be pointing right at you. I don’t know what you guys are talking about.

[Ric Flair]

http://www.theonetwopunch.com/images/fittip1199.jpg
Here is a guy in a boxing stance. If you were to stand right in front of him his lead foot would be pointing right at you. I don’t know what you guys are talking about.


Actually the boxer above is proving my point exactly. What i was talking about is different.

Just get some fencer stance pictures and post them and you'll know what i'm talking about. thanks for the pic too.

The correct boxer stance starts with the toe to heel alignment like in the pic, shoulders width apart, on the balls of the feet, and turned slightly sideways. However, when a boxer starts moving about, chances are there will be times when the front foot faces the opponent depending on his angle and positioning.

[Jonathan Randall]

Believe it or not but, my coach told me a few coaches he came across taught their students to have the front foot pointed forward with the toes towards the opponent! Only the back leg was ever sideways with these students.

My coach even said he took one of these "fencer boxers" on as a new student, he couldn't break the habit outta the kid though cuz the bad habit has been ingrained in him for over 4 or so years. The kid could only box good forward and backward (linear) and eventually many boxers who knew how to sidestep, circle caught on and beat him almost all the time by sidestepping and circling in with punches since the kid couldn't react quickly enough to side/circle attacks due to his "Fencing forward foot" lol.

My coach said once a boxer has picked up a habit and does it for many years, it is hard for him to change these habits.

I have never heard of a regular boxing gym teaching anything but the regular side parallel stance. Perhaps this persons instructor was worried about their student being vulnerable to one-legged takedowns? Some kickboxers use the front foot facing the opponent stance, but a boxer, fighting under boxing rules, should never, IMO.

[BlackSheep]

What are your thoughts and opinions on coaches who teach their students the "fencer stance" instead of the proper boxing stance?

They don’t have a clue and are bullshido artists!

[Cujo]

The picture has the stance correct. I never heard of anyone using a fencers stance, but it sounds like a bad idea to me.
Pax
Cujo

[Ken Pfrenger]

Older styles of boxing almost always pointed the lead toe at the opponent(don't forget Muay Thai does this as well) for several reasons....one of which is the fact that standing wrestling was permitted. This style of wrestling used alot of leg trips and hooks making the toe forward a bit more usable...also linear punch was alot more popular in the older styles since the distance people fought at was larger due to the fact that grappling was allowed.

Another factor is power generation...Although not seen too much now, the drop step was used extensively by the early bareknucklers. Drop step and an inward aligned lead toe could lead to a twisted or even possibly broken ankle. See Dempseys manual for more info on the drop/falling or trigger step(as you prefer to call it)

Boxing stances have changed over the years, mostly due to rules but also just out of shear fashion and what was popular or unpopular with the crowds....late LPR rules is where you see most of the fencing like stances. Personally I can't stand to fight like that but i havve seen some people do a fairly good job from a fencing stance....not modern boxing of course but still workable if you apply it and understand it.

[monkey]

I sugguest to look at old boxing film & see how they move-stand-deploy from stance ect.John L Sullivan is a good place to start.They you might try some savate footage.

[Shaggy]

well thanks guys for your discussion on stance i have been doing boxing for a little bit and my coach told me to stand completely sideways he said it was to stop any bad punching habits at the beginning but then he said me stance was wrong and when he showed me how to stand i keep falling over but u guys helped me out

[lklawson]

This is the first that I’ve heard/read about a “boxing club teaching a fencing stance”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:John_L_Sullivan.jpg

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[lklawson]

My coach was simply comparing the stances of a boxer vs a stance of a fencer.

Modernized Fencing for the most part is linear. I heard however the older "combat" fencing utilized circular AND linear attack forms (in regards to footwork)
This is true, sorta. Modern sport/olympic fencing is far different in many important ways from Classical Fencing. The stances were somewhat different, often, and there was a great deal of non-linear movement. But the stances and footwork weren't always similar. Some were, some were not. Certain classical knife fighting stances (such as Navaja) were more similar to a squared off modern boxing stance.

For instance, go look at Hope's New Method of fencing (as an extreme example). About the only similarity is the shoulders squared stance. Agrippa and some of the Itallian Rapier guys might be closer but we're stretching my knowledge of Classical Rapier/Classical Fencing.



So the older fencing stance is like today's boxing stance.

Except for how it isn't. ;)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[lklawson]

This is totally wrong!

I’m not up on the history of fencing stances and how they relate to boxing but I will say again, this is the first that I’ve heard/read about fencing stances in boxing.
In the 17th & 18th Century, it was fairly common. Fencing methods and Boxing methods were taught together as an integrated system. Boxing was sometimes thought of as "Fencing with Fists."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[lklawson]

just wanted to say that anybody, and i mean anybody, can learn a lot from watching a boxer's footwork.
You'd think, but that isn't nessasarily so.

Aside from the basics of moving (move the foot closest to the direction you're going first), it doesn't always apply. This is particularly true for bladed weapons.

If you try to "give point" with a sword or a knife the way you throw a (modern boxing) punch, you're going to die on your opponent's blade. The closest "safe" analog would be a rabbit punch or a lighting-fast jab. There's no place for knock-out power in blade work. And boxing footwork is a major element of knockout power.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of boxing footwork, but it just doesn't always apply. It's not near universal. (Works well for stick-fighting though.)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[lklawson]

Older styles of boxing almost always pointed the lead toe at the opponent(don't forget Muay Thai does this as well) for several reasons....one of which is the fact that standing wrestling was permitted. This style of wrestling used alot of leg trips and hooks making the toe forward a bit more usable...also linear punch was alot more popular in the older styles since the distance people fought at was larger due to the fact that grappling was allowed.

Another factor is power generation...Although not seen too much now, the drop step was used extensively by the early bareknucklers. Drop step and an inward aligned lead toe could lead to a twisted or even possibly broken ankle. See Dempseys manual for more info on the drop/falling or trigger step(as you prefer to call it)

Boxing stances have changed over the years, mostly due to rules but also just out of shear fashion and what was popular or unpopular with the crowds....late LPR rules is where you see most of the fencing like stances. Personally I can't stand to fight like that but i havve seen some people do a fairly good job from a fencing stance....not modern boxing of course but still workable if you apply it and understand it.
Drat.

I shoulda knowed Ken would beat me to this thread. [pouting]

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[lklawson]

Here's what Fox's Atheletic Library Police Gazette had to say,


One of the most essential things now is to stand firmly upon
the feet in a position to get about quickly and safelyâ€"slow legs are
as much to the detriment of success as slow hands. One must be
always ready to use his feet to retreat and to advance, or to quickly
step into position. In this position the toes of the right foot must
be directly behind and in a line with the left heel.
Easily balanced on your feet, the right arm should be across
the "mark" (that point where the ribs begin to arch), the hand
being an inch below the left breast. To obtain the exact position
of the left arm, advance the left shoulder, drop the arm by the side,
and then raise the forearm until the hand is on a level with the
elbow. In sparring it should be worked easily forward and back-
ward. Throw the right shoulder well back and slightly sink it, so
that of the two the left shoulder is the higher. I Lower the chin,
turn the face a little to the right, and bend the head slightly over
the right shoulder. The object of turning the face is to prevent
both eyes being hit at once, while the head is bent to the right in
order that it may not be directly in a line with your opponent‘sleft
hand, and thus afford him an easy target.
Some consideration must be given to the position of the
hands. They must be tightly clinched. If this precaution is not
observed the force of the blow is diminished and a sprained or
otherwise injured wrist would be the penalty involved. The left
hand, in the position to lead at the head, should be closed with the
palm upwards, the arm almost perfectly straight, with the elbow
turned up.

Associated pics:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=45&pictureid=649
Fox's pic to go along with above text

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=45&pictureid=643
Allanson-Winn

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=45&pictureid=642
Diagram from Allanson-Winn

See also some of the pics from the "which knuckles" thread.

You get the idea. :)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[lklawson]

Just added a few more historic pics illustrating the evolution of the stance in Boxing.

First:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=45&pictureid=1128
Mendoza vs. Humphries - demonstrates Broughton era style stances - from Mendoza's "Lessons" on boxing. Courtesy of the Linacre School of Defense

Second:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=45&pictureid=1126
Broughton era style stance from Owen Swift's "Boxing"

Third:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=45&pictureid=1127
London Prize-ring Rules style stance from Owen Swift's "Boxing"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk