The effectiveness of Acupuncture.

[Bob Hubbard]

(This is based on a post I made on KenpoTalk. I welcome comments)

==
Ok, I can't find my original notes, so I did some new digging.

My desire for a better approach to the ideas of the traditionally trained doctors I've encountered began several years ago. They informed me that I would have to deal with certain pains. They offered expensive pills to take to hide the pain...pills that had some nasty side effects associated with them, including foggy brain (sorry, don't know the clinical term). More recently, I was diagnosed with high blood pressure. My traditional solution? Here, eat this chemical and see if it works (oh and heres all the side effects it can cause you). I also have several herniated disks (from a car accident). Both my traditional doctor and my chiropractor (remember, chiropractors are also considered quacks. My neck and back tell me otherwise) have recommended that rather than going under the knife (the only solution traditional medicine can offer me, besides pain pills to mask the pain and poison my body further), that I seek the services of a TCM trained acupuncturist. I've been researching that option and checking out my local options and will be making a visit shortly.

I am tired of doctors prescribing the "pill of the week", who don't understand half the side effects it can cause (I asked 1 doctor a few years back if the pill they were prescribing had any side effects. He said "nothing major". I looked it up and read the paper I got with it. I dunno about you, but I would call loss of sex drive, irritability, and kidney failure to be major.) I can take 2,000 mg of ibuprophen for my headaches, or I can do acupressure, and other non-toxic herbal treatments. I prefer the latter as kidney failure is not on my lists of things to experience.

TCM practices have been working in China for 2,000 years. Studies on how the bodies neural pathways are layed out have found that 2,000 year old meridian charts are very similar in these "modern scientific" charts. In addition, acupuncture is approved by the FDA, the National Institutes of Health list is as safe and effective, and

Traditional medicine has it's place. It's foundations go back just as far, with many of the basic techniques and tools having been devised in the Greek and later Roman eras. There are things a needle in the arm cannot cure. Unfortunately, todays traditional medicine relies on surgery and chemicals to treat patients problems, often times with tragic results. How many drugs have been pulled from the market after being fast-tracked through the FDA? How many needless surgeries are performed each day?

Traditional medicine says "you have a pain. here, hide the pain with this pill, and hope you do not pee blood."
TCM says "you have a pain. Let us remove the source of that pain and restore you to balance."

I seek balance over illusion.

My research is below. One can read through these Government and Educational Institution resource sites and decide for oneself if TCM and Acupuncture are valid options for their health care.


From NCCAM, National Institutes of Health
Is acupuncture safe?

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved acupuncture needles for use by licensed practitioners in 1996. The FDA requires that sterile, nontoxic needles be used and that they be labeled for single use by qualified practitioners only.5

Relatively few complications from the use of acupuncture have been reported to the FDA in light of the millions of people treated each year and the number of acupuncture needles used.

Does acupuncture work?

According to the NIH Consensus Statement on Acupuncture, there have been many studies on acupuncture's potential usefulness, but results have been mixed because of complexities with study design and size, as well as difficulties with choosing and using placebos or sham acupuncture. However, promising results have emerged, showing efficacy of acupuncture, for example, in adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and in postoperative dental pain. There are other situations--such as addiction, stroke rehabilitation, headache, menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, osteoarthritis, low-back pain, carpal tunnel syndrome, and asthma--in which acupuncture may be useful as an adjunct treatment or an acceptable alternative or be included in a comprehensive management program. An NCCAM-funded study recently showed that acupuncture provides pain relief, improves function for people with osteoarthritis of the knee, and serves as an effective complement to standard care. Further research is likely to uncover additional areas where acupuncture interventions will be useful.


For acupuncture information: http://www.acupuncture.com/

American Academy of Medical Acupuncture
http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/

NCCAM, National Institutes of Health
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/

British Acupuncture Council
http://www.acupuncture.org.uk/
Article on treating sports related injuries with acupuncture (http://www.acupuncture.org.uk/content/Library/pdf/sports_bp11.pdf)
On treating Migranes (http://www.acupuncture.org.uk/content/Library/pdf/migraine_bp1.pdf)
Gynaecological Disorders (http://www.acupuncture.org.uk/content/Library/pdf/gynaecology_bp4.pdf)

Articles evidencing the existence of energy meridians
(Compiled from the internet by Fred Gallo, PhD)
http://www.emofree.com/Research/meridianexistence.htm

[Xue Sheng]

Bob

Yes it works, but you need to find a person that is well trained. Also you need to know that if an MD does acupuncture that does not necessarily mean they are well trained. MDs in NYS do not have to train as much as other acupuncturists do in NYS.

However the problem is that very few acupuncturists in the US get all of the training they need before they are let loose to practice. This is not to say that they cannot be good at acupuncture.
And if you are talking a true herbologist that knows much beyond basic stuff that is harder to find. My wife has had a lot of patients come to her with basic stuff that is not strong enough or mixed properly to fix the problem.

Also just because they are Chinese does not mean they are well trained. Many Chinese MDs and western medical people come to the US and cannot work in the same field as they did in China so they turn to acupuncture.

I currently know of only 3 well trained Chinese acupuncturists in the US. But I am certain there are more. 1 is in Oregon 1 is my wife (yes I know that makes me bias in many peoples eyes, but it is true.) There is also one in Syracuse.

All are graduates of Beijing university of TCM and the one in Oregon and my wife worked for an extended period of time in Beijing hospital (the one the government uses). Actually there are 2 in Syracuse from Beijing University of TCM. Both in the same clinic, but neither worked in Beijing hospital. One worked in a Chinese hospital, but I do not know which one and the other came directly to the US from China after graduation.

I have also been told that most Americans can be very good, and that they tend to take what they do seriously. The problem is they lack the extensive training they get in China but some are still very good.

However I did go to an acupuncturist that was a graduate of the New England School of Acupuncture long before I meant my wife and he was pretty good.

Also it is not a miracle cure. If you have been receiving other medication or cortisone shots or if it is an old injury with lots of scar tissue it is harder to treat but not impossible. Depending on the condition or injury it can start as 2 or 3 visits a week, change to 1 to 2 then to a couple a month until you are either pain free or on a maintenance schedule.

I will send you a link to my wife's website via e-mail. I am not sure if posting it here would be considered advertising.

The down side here is we live a long way from Buffalo and obviously Oregon is further, but Syracuse isn't too far.

[Bob Hubbard]

I've got a name of someone who (if I remember right) works in Toronto, Buffalo and NYC who is one of 2 "names" in my area. (Can't recall it now though). I've had a number of good referrals to him from my local clients (I believe the name is Wu but I'm not sure, it's written down at home).

I got the link, and appreciate it. Albany's a bit of a drive for me, but there was a lot of good information there. Thank you.

[Xue Sheng]

I've got a name of someone who (if I remember right) works in Toronto, Buffalo and NYC who is one of 2 "names" in my area. (Can't recall it now though). I've had a number of good referrals to him from my local clients (I believe the name is Wu but I'm not sure, it's written down at home).

I got the link, and appreciate it. Albany's a bit of a drive for me, but there was a lot of good information there. Thank you.

I figured that Albany was too far, that is why I mentioned Syracuse.

Also there is a person in Canada possibly Toronto that may have been one of my wife's acupuncture students that she taught at Beijing hospital.

I do not know Wu, but that means absolutely nothing. Find out where he/she trained.

China is not a good enough answer, like I said a lot of Chinese MDs come here and switch to Acupuncture. One of the Universities of TCM is a good answer and there are many in China. The best ones are either generally the same name as the province they are in. Beijing University of TCM Hebei University of TCM, etc.

However if WU did not graduate from one of these does not mean that he is not good. I know an acupuncturist that is Chinese that is in his late 60s that is very good and learned in the old way by following a Sifu for many years.

Also Northern and Southern schools of TCM do have some different approaches, but I would be very hard pressed to say one was better than the other.

I can say I have been a pin cushion on many occasions and it has help immensely with the myriad of injuries I have accumulated over the years. I have also had herbal treatments, cupping and acupressure. All have helped.

I will say this; acupressure hurts more than acupuncture if done correctly.

Good luck

[Ceicei]

Well, I had accupuncture treatments for six weeks when I was a kid. It supposedly was to help "cure my deafness". Needless to say, I'm still as deaf now as I ever was....

- Ceicei

[Flying Crane]

I think acupuncture can aid in healing, but is not a magic pill. Your body still needs to go thru the healing process, but acupuncture, like other treatments, can help it do that.

Here in San Francisco we have many good acupuncturists. I used to go to an 80 year old Chinese woman who was on the review board for practitioners in California. She was quite good.

[Xue Sheng]

Well, I had accupuncture treatments for six weeks when I was a kid. It supposedly was to help "cure my deafness". Needless to say, I'm still as deaf now as I ever was....

- Ceicei

Acupuncture like everything else has it share of charlatans; it is possible that your condition is not treatable via TCM.

My wife as well as anyone from Beijing University of TCM has a lot Traditional Chinese medical training and also is required to have Western medicine training too. And there are things that TCM treats better than western medicine and things western medicine treats better than TCM.

In Beijing hospital (the government hospital – the one Mao used) a TCM doc sends patients for x-rays and examinations just like an MD here. And on occasion prescribe western medication, but not often.

She has had people call her here and she has told them whether or not she feels that they can be treated by TCM and on occasion told them to see an MD. She also explains thoroughly the treatment and how long she thinks it will take.

First let me say, I am not saying that you did the following, you went for 6 weeks and I think it is the fault of the acupuncturist.

A problem occurs when people come and expect a miracle cure. After being in pain or having some condition for years and being treated by western medicine for years they come to one treatment that does not cure them instantly and they leave and never come back even though they have been told prior to that it will take at least X amount of treatments before they are pain free or until they are on a maintenance program.

[Bob Hubbard]

See also this thread: http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1802

[theletch1]

Bob, I've been seeing an acupunturist for several weeks over the squashed vertabrae in my lower back. She's a LAC as well as a Doctor of Oriental Meds and is therefore able to deal with the herbology needed to help my body help itself. I dealt with the same thing from western doctors after my initial injury. Take this pill, you won't feel a thing. Trouble is I'm a truck driver. Do you really want someone stoned on pain killers behind the wheel of an 80,000 pound truck? I couldn't take the drugs and work so just dealt with the constant pain for a year and a half. I can't believe the difference in how well I feel and how much better I move in the dojo after seeing the acupuncturist. Call the practitioner and talk to them. If you don't get a good vibe from them go somewhere else. I truly feel that to make the technique work at it's best requires a full mind/body commitment. Finding an acupuncturist for me was like picking the dojo and instructor that I've been with for the last 3 years. I called around, interviewed and went with the one that suited me best.

[theletch1]

Acupuncture like everything else has it share of charlatans; it is possible that your condition is not treatable via TCM.

My wife as well as anyone from Beijing University of TCM has a lot Traditional Chinese medical training and also is required to have Western medicine training too. And there are things that TCM treats better than western medicine and things western medicine treats better than TCM.

In Beijing hospital (the government hospital – the one Mao used) a TCM doc sends patients for x-rays and examinations just like an MD here. And on occasion prescribe western medication, but not often.


A problem occurs when people come and expect a miracle cure. After being in pain or having some condition for years and being treated by western medicine for years they come to one treatment that does not cure them instantly and they leave and never come back even though they have been told prior to that it will take at least X amount of treatments before they are pain free or until they are on a maintenance program.My acupunturist and I had a conversation last week regarding the mixing of western medicine and TCM. Both have their bonuses and detractions. If I break my arm then by all means take me to the ER to have it set...just set it with a removable cast so that my acupuncturist can get to the site of the break for acupuncture if she needs to to help it heal.

I went to the acupuncturist figuring I had nothing left to lose instead of looking for a miracle. After the FIRST visit about 75% of my pain was gone. The remaining 25% has proven to be rather tenacious, though so I continue to see her. Certainly not a miracle cure but indeed a treatment for the ailment and not just something to mask the symptoms.

[Xue Sheng]

See also this thread: http://kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1802

I reference to this thread and as a bit of a side note.

I once told my wife that when TCM came to America that Western MDs said it was worthless garbage.

She responded with that is very interesting because when western medicine came to China the TCM docs said it was worthless garbage.

It is all a matter of perspective I guess.

[Xue Sheng]

My acupunturist and I had a conversation last week regarding the mixing of western medicine and TCM. Both have their bonuses and detractions. If I break my arm then by all means take me to the ER to have it set...just set it with a removable cast so that my acupuncturist can get to the site of the break for acupuncture if she needs to to help it heal.

I went to the acupuncturist figuring I had nothing left to lose instead of looking for a miracle. After the FIRST visit about 75% of my pain was gone. The remaining 25% has proven to be rather tenacious, though so I continue to see her. Certainly not a miracle cure but indeed a treatment for the ailment and not just something to mask the symptoms.

That is great and I am glad to hear it. Some pain and some conditions are harder than others. It sometimes depends on how long you were on pain medication or the amount of scaring involved.

There are conditions where someone is in pain for a long time and they go to her office and get a treatment. Many times they are amazed at how well it works. Chronic Neck pain is a good example of this. But as my wife describes it, they pain goes away after the first treatment but may come back in a couple of days and then the second treatment and the pain goes away but this time the pain does not come back as intense and or you are pain free for 3 or 4 days possibly longer and as long as you go to the treatments it is likely the periods between pain get longer and longer until eventually they are gone.

I will have to post a list she has of what acupuncture is used to treat, successfully, in China.

[Ceicei]

Acupuncture like everything else has it share of charlatans; it is possible that your condition is not treatable via TCM.


That's possible. Of course, very little was known about acupuncture back then, so my parents really did not know how to find a good one. Whether the one I went to was good or not, I have no idea. All I know is that she was a doctor in China, highly qualified with Acupuncture, and came to America to study Western medicine. That said, my parents had difficulty accepting my deafness when I grew up, so went seeking for remedies of all types. I was born hearing and lost it around 2 years old. My deafness is partial nerve damage in the cochlea. Maybe some day, technology and science may advance to the point how nerves develop would be better understood and a way found to grow new ones. Nevertheless, I am used to being deaf, and enjoy the life I lead.

- Ceicei

- Ceicei

[Xue Sheng]

That's possible. Of course, very little was known about acupuncture back then, so my parents really did not know how to find a good one. Whether the one I went to was good or not, I have no idea. All I know is that she was a doctor in China, highly qualified with Acupuncture, and came to America to study Western medicine. That said, my parents had difficulty accepting my deafness when I grew up, so went seeking for remedies of all types. I was born hearing and lost it around 2 years old. My deafness is partial nerve damage in the cochlea. Maybe some day, technology and science may advance to the point how nerves develop would be better understood and a way found to grow new ones. Nevertheless, I am used to being deaf, and enjoy the life I lead.

- Ceicei

- Ceicei

There are 2 types of doctors in China, ones trained in Western medicine (MD) and those trained in Eastern medicine (OMD). Many western style doctors from china that come here cannot practice western medicine without additional education. They may be very good MDs but the US does not accept the training in full in many states. But what happens a lot is they come here and turn to acupuncture to make a living, it is easier to become a licensed acupuncturist than an MD in the US. They may be very good at it, but they lack the intense training of an OMD (what my wife is) in TCM herbal and acupuncture.

And in some cases many years ago no license was required and if it was it was simply a matter of filling out the form. My Tai Chi Sifu is also highly trained in acupuncture (he followed an acupuncture Sifu). And he has been in the US for almost 40 years and he has said there was no license required when he first got here and that when they first started requiring a license he could have got one simply by applying without additional training. Things are very different now.

I believe my wife once said that some types or all types of nerve damage is not treatable with acupuncture, but I could be wrong, I will check with her and post here answer if you like.

[Xue Sheng]

I believe my wife once said that some types or all types of nerve damage is not treatable with acupuncture, but I could be wrong, I will check with her and post here answer if you like.

I am wrong on this point. Acupuncture is very good a treating nerve damage. However per my wife hear issues and nerve damage it really depends on how the damage occurred and how long it has been damaged.

Damage from a very loud noise she says is generally treatable. But there are conditions that acupuncture can do nothing about and those generally would require surgery

But she says it really depends in a situation with hearing.

Sorry for the error

[Carol]

Since we're on the subject of nerves, do you mind if I ask how effective is accupuncture at treating nervous disorders?

[Xue Sheng]

Since we're on the subject of nerves, do you mind if I ask how effective is accupuncture at treating nervous disorders?

I imagine it would depend on the nervous disorder and I would have to ask. I know it does well with stress.

I will PM you my wife's website it has a list of some things, not all, that have been treated successfully. There is also an e-mail contact there as well.

[ibba]

I have also had good experience with an acupuncturist out in Co. at a UMAA camp, I was experiencing serious back pain and I was amazed how effective the treatment was!

[Carol]

I imagine it would depend on the nervous disorder and I would have to ask. I know it does well with stress.

I will PM you my wife's website it has a list of some things, not all, that have been treated successfully. There is also an e-mail contact there as well.


I have narcolepsy, which isn't a stress disorder, its more of a depressed (underactive) central nervous system. I am a strong believer in naturopathic options, but I have yet to meet a naturopath of any sort that has successfully knocked any kind of -epsy in to remission.

I have never opened up a conversation with an accupuncturist. I get very schitzy around needles :blush: but a wise person has since advised me how painless accupuncture is.

[Xue Sheng]

I have narcolepsy, which isn't a stress disorder, its more of a depressed (underactive) central nervous system. I am a strong believer in naturopathic options, but I have yet to meet a naturopath of any sort that has successfully knocked any kind of -epsy in to remission.

I have never opened up a conversation with an accupuncturist. I get very schitzy around needles :blush: but a wise person has since advised me how painless accupuncture is.

She has treated a couple of cases succesfully but it really depends on the severity.

In Chinese medicine, from the Chinese OMD perspective, they would not work with the Western Diagnosis. They would talk to you about your symptoms and basically do a TCM examination and give it a Chinese name and depending on severity and cause the name would be different and in Chinese.

Also depending on severity and the cause, per a Chinese Diagnosis, it may or may not be treatable. Sever with specific causes (and I do not know what those causes would be) is not treatable. Sever with other causes might be treatable all the way too mild is very treatable.

It really depends on your particular situation.

[Carol]

She has treated a couple of cases succesfully but it really depends on the severity.

In Chinese medicine, from the Chinese OMD perspective, they would not work with the Western Diagnosis. They would talk to you about your symptoms and basically do a TCM examination and give it a Chinese name and depending on severity and cause the name would be different and in Chinese.

Also depending on severity and the cause, per a Chinese Diagnosis, it may or may not be treatable. Sever with specific causes (and I do not know what those causes would be) is not treatable. Sever with other causes might be treatable all the way too mild is very treatable.

It really depends on your particular situation.


I think that is the most informed response that I have ever received on the subject. :asian:

I appreciate your insight and her insight very much. I may PM you in the near future. :)

[Xue Sheng]

I think that is the most informed response that I have ever received on the subject. :asian:

I appreciate your insight and her insight very much. I may PM you in the near future. :)

Thank you but all the insight is hers.

PM me anytime.

[shifu]

One of my students has a shoulder injury from his work and is currently undergoing acupuncture for same. He swears by its benefits. I have also undergone acupuncture for releasing Chi/qi and found it to be most pleasing and effective.

[Drac]

Me I swear my it..Messed my lower back up doing squats..One session and I was able to walk upright and not all bent over...

[Xue Sheng]

I swear by it as well, but I can be considered biased.

About 2 years before I started forced acupuncture treatments I had a solid year of nothing but injuries that started with a partially torn ligament in my elbow and ended with a tree falling on me. I will spare you the entire detailed list.

When the year was done I had constant pain in my low back, shooting pain between my left foot and left knee and an entirely numb right foot, fairly regular (not constant) shoulder and neck pain, and doing Tai Chi hurt.

I meant my wife and after we were married I was "told" I was getting acupuncture and herbal treatments (they were free so I listened).

I still have occasional minor back pain, but it doesn't stop me and that is a very old injury, however the rest is gone.

Now I just got to work on getting back in shape...and after 40 that ain't easy.

OK. I’ll stop now, I’m starting to sound like a commercial.

[TKDmel]

I currently know of only 3 well trained Chinese acupuncturists in the US. But I am certain there are more. 1 is in Oregon 1 is my wife (yes I know that makes me bias in many peoples eyes, but it is true.) There is also one in Syracuse.


Xue Sheng, Could you PM me with any contact info you may have on the practitioners here in Syracuse? I had wonderful results with accupunture here many years ago but can not find the gentleman anymore. He may no longer practice as he was fairly old back then.

I am pretty new to MT so I hope asking this is allowed. If its not then please forgive my ignorance.

[Wey]

I wish to have acupuncture done to me as well, though I do not have any real ailments, other than flexibility problems. D:

Xue Sheng, could you ask your wife about the effects, if any, of acupuncture on flexibility? It would be much appreciated. And, does she have any referrral of an acupuncturist around the Atlanta area? Thanks.

[Xue Sheng]

I wish to have acupuncture done to me as well, though I do not have any real ailments, other than flexibility problems. D:

Xue Sheng, could you ask your wife about the effects, if any, of acupuncture on flexibility? It would be much appreciated. And, does she have any referrral of an acupuncturist around the Atlanta area? Thanks.


I will ask her

Also she does not know anyine in Atlanta. You can chack the NCCAOM (http://www.nccaom.org/find/index.html) website to see who is there.

Also if you find someone that is saying they were trained in China make sure you find out what they were trained in China. Trained in China does not necessarily mean trained in Traditional Chinese Medicine in China.

There are a lot of Chinese that ended up in acupuncture in the US that claim trained in China, and they were, just not in acupuncture. I have seen that claim made by people trained as nurses in China and Western Medicine in China and the training is not the same. I even saw one that was claiming trained in China and he actually was trained in China... as an accountant.

There are also some very good practitioners trained here in the US as well.

[Wey]

Oh boy, gotta check their credentials eh? Thanks for your help.

[wushuguy]

finding a good acupuncturist is difficult, sometimes credentials and certificates aren't everything, some times people with skill come to the usa by alternate means so they couldn't get a certificate or bring one with them. my wife and i found one by accident, he came from china and was doing skin care (in china he was a doctor of internal medicine. he did skin care because it was easier to make money as people could see results with their eyes, not waiting for some time guessing whether the herbal medicine worked.)
anyway, talking with him more, he does acupuncture but only for his family and close friends, but he liked us so did acupuncture for my wife's knees. her knees hurt every winter and sometimes unbearable. but after that session, for two years now, winter has come and gone, and she didn't have knee pains.

so, when looking, rather than just the credentials, have to know how long they've been practicing and what kind of success they've been having treating those patients, and what kind of patients they have experience treating. very experienced doctors can tell much just by feeling the pulse and observing the patient. like by feeling the pulse and looking, they will be able to tell what illness you have without you having to tell them. (verifiable by visiting a western doctor and having tests done, or already knowing your illness before visiting).

[Xue Sheng]

very experienced doctors can tell much just by feeling the pulse and observing the patient. like by feeling the pulse and looking, they will be able to tell what illness you have without you having to tell them. (verifiable by visiting a western doctor and having tests done, or already knowing your illness before visiting).

You are talking abu0t a traditional Chinese medical diagnosis and most well trained TCM docs don't really need and at times don't want the western medical diagnosis. Basically TCM Docs are looking to treat the cause not the result. And just because patient A has a headache does not mean that you treat patient B's headache the same way. They may have different cause.

But in China a TCM Doctor will also send patients for MRIs, X-Rays, etc. and at times prescribe western medication. They do not always have these options here.