I've been teaching for a while and I've done a few self-defense classes for men and women. It seems that women are uneasy about striking, even to pads? I know that most of the people here are martial artists, but do you find this common?

There are alternative self defense classes that teach more of how to conquer the adreneline response, using scenario drills to help you learn to not freeze up and keep the attacker at bay. Do you find these more appropriate or should it be added to a contact class?


My particular view is that you should have contact in self defense courses, just so you know how to react when it comes down to it. Otherwise you can just get a book. My particular class format has them learn the strikes (no punches, just heel palms, elbows and such), then strike to pads, and then finally, striking a moving, live attacker. But if having contact classes mean the difference between not training or training, is it really any better?

What is the female perspective?

WhiteBirch

Hi,

I personally feel you cannot do self defence without close contact. I'll admit when I first started training, I found it very odd to have someone in my 'space'. However, I now realise that as I do Shotokan, I don't really have anyone 'that' close to me. Most of what I have been taught so far has been at arms length. So I took up self defence.

In the first few lessons of any martial art you have to overcome the language barrier, the odd manouvers and the ettiquette. Then they ask you to try and hit some one you've never met before. It is a little off-putting, however, you do not (and should not IMO) enter training for a martial art without realising you will get sweaty, dirty, bruised and possibly end up hurting some one else. I have seen other female recruits that just can't handle this, which is fair enough.

I am no one special, never, ever been in a fight in my life before (before I started or since I started training), I weigh 9 stone and am 5'5" but if you don't have the right attitude to learning self defence you won't pick it up.

I recently wrote an article about self defence awareness on another forum (not sure if I'm allowed to link so won't :) ) but basically, I don't think my training has made me invicible or anything - just taught me to be aware of my surroundings and I hope! to react to any aggressive physical intent towards me.

Without contact (person or bags/pads) in my training, I am sure I wouldn't learn timing, speed, reaction or self control. You should keep it in the class I reckon. :)

Originally posted by Shoto Tiger

I recently wrote an article about self defence awareness on another forum (not sure if I'm allowed to link so won't :) )

It's certainly fine by us. We link to articles on sites like E-Budo all the time.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-

Thank you arnisador

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=75

well I'm not female but I'll throw in my opinion anyway.

Most self deffence situations come about by poor awareness of your environment, I think simply educating people as to how to spot a potential attacker, when/where not to be, etc.. you could prevent alot of self deffence situations. Physical self deffence starts to operate once things have gone down hill quite a bit, so it might be posable to seperate self deffence into two classes, awareness education and physical, that way someone who doesn't want to hit people could take one and at leaste get some benafit.

Sweeper,

Right on Dude... ya .. you gotta be aware of where your are going.. if you end up in a situation where there or 3 attackers and 2 of them know how to use a knife (meaning not held up in plain view if you get my drift) WHAT WHERE YOU DOING THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE???? Trust me.. if the road is dark Im not going down it!!!

Thats all..


oh p.s.... I love the hard kicking that we do in class.. a bounus side of it, besides that fact that im learning to breaks other peoples bones.. its a GREAT Stress reliever.. ooooo when my forman (yes he's a man.. uggg, no offence guys) is a royal jerk.. its always so nice to go to the dojang and swipe away at the kicking pads.. hehehehhe and you can guess who im thinking of at that precise time too!! LOL :rofl:


OK now that's all....

You get out of the martial arts or self defense classes what you put into them. In other words, if you play 'patty cake' in class, your techniques won't matter a bit in the street. To train realisticaly for street situations, you have to train the defenses full contact so you won't pull your punches out of habit

Originally posted by Shoto Tiger

Thank you arnisador

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=75

Thanks for the link and your insight on your training. And thanks everyone for your comments as well. Do you find that other women look strangely at you because you study MA, as if you're too aggressive or something? In my regular classes, the women tend to work out OK, hitting the pads good enough, but not really getting into the contact sparring yet. But in the self-defense side, they seem to be really, really shy. Is it their attitude in general about being non-agressive, or is it perhaps they just don't know me yet, and don't know what to expect? Any ideas on how to break through that attitude?

WhiteBirch

Originally posted by lvwhitebir


Do you find that other women look strangely at you because you study MA, as if you're too aggressive or something?

I have been looking for another job on and off over the past few months and about 2 months ago I applied for a position, basically exactly the same role I am in now and liked my chances to make it to an interview. I found out shortly afterwards that they didn't even want to interview me. I called up to find out why and was told that as I had put down Martial Arts as an interest, they were concerned I was going to be 'violent and ill-tempered'!!!

This is before they even met me and found out I did stick fighting!

I think I would have understood to a certain degree if they had said because they were worried about injuries, but this...???

Out of my circle of female friends I suppose a couple of the girls have said its not very femine and 'how could you hit someone?' but most think its a great idea but like the idea of aerobics more (???).

"In my regular classes, the women tend to work out OK, hitting the pads good enough, but not really getting into the contact sparring yet."

I have to admit I had trouble with this myself. I have never been involved in a fight and had this silly desire to not be hit when I first started. I guess its down to a persons background and upbringing. Most girls play hopscotch at school and patta cake, most boys play football and hit each other for fun (?). I soon got into the adrenaline rush though and the fact I could hit others with a vague chance that if I moved fast enough they wouldn't be able to hit me back. Still waiting for that to happen though :(

"But in the self-defense side, they seem to be really, really shy. Is it their attitude in general about being non-agressive, or is it perhaps they just don't know me yet, and don't know what to expect? Any ideas on how to break through that attitude?"

Easy...tell them from the first day and demonstrate how close you will eventually end up working. I know normally you don't want to put people (women) off at the beginning but unfortunately some women have real 'issues' which led them to take up self defence in the first place. As they are new to the class and you they may not feel to happy about explaining them to you either. At the last dojo I was at we had a woman who had been attacked and raped, she found it difficult to work with women almost as much as the men, it was the physical closeness that bothered her. I am pleased to say she has now moved onto other martial arts and is now a Green belt. She's done very well. I believe it is as much that as the fact that 'most' women have a more closeted upbringing and don't get expected to rough and tumble it as the boys do. Social pressures and peer groups design a peson as much as their home life does.

Most people really have no idea what to expect from MA training, I sure didn't. I had no idea it was going to be so repetitive for a start and that level of commitment isn't everyones cup of tea.

You seem very sympathetic and open to suggestions though. I would personally be delighted to attend one of your classes were that possible :)

I have to admit I had trouble with this myself. I have never been involved in a fight and had this silly desire to not be hit when I first started. I guess its down to a persons background and upbringing. Most girls play hopscotch at school and patta cake, most boys play football and hit each other for fun (?). I soon got into the adrenaline rush though and the fact I could hit others with a vague chance that if I moved fast enough they wouldn't be able to hit me back. Still waiting for that to happen though

I know what you mean. I have met very few women who were willing to even visit a martial arts class.. but I do know some that don't seem to care about hitting and getting hit. In my class it seems that women initialy might be a little uneasy about getting hit, but after they get over that it takes them a wial to feal comfortable hitting others.. they always go realy light.

I actualy had the oposite problem.. years of soccer have ingrained in me to try to smack my head up against round objects moving twards me at high speed... you have no idea how many punches I have eaten.. one time I litteraly choked on my mouthguard from ducking into a punch combo.

I think Contact in a self-defense class is important. A person is going to have contact if they really get attacked anyway.

This is a little silly but I'll tell it anyway. I've always been one of those girls who doesn't really care for public displays of affection and I really didn't enjoy being around those girls who go around hugging everybody in friendship. :erg: It took quite awhile for me to get used to the extremly "up close and personal" part of Aikido but now I'm so used to it that I don't think twice about it. Because of that, I don't mind all those people who go around hugging people anymore and that's just one little thing that's nice that I don't have to worry about. :rolleyes: :D

Also for the Contact Self-Defense, I'm still a big "flincher" and I have a hard time even punching the pads/bags/whatever-they-
are. I still have a lot to learn and a lot of "hurdles" to get over.

Robyn :asian:

:yinyang:

Everyone, especially women, feel awkward hitting or kicking something at first. the more you do it, the more you get used to it. You can't do self defense without contact, although it should probably be light contact.

hmmmm, here's a thought... I never grew up in school playing patty cake and skip(dont' get me wrong im sure it was fun) BUT I was with the boys playing street hockey, soccer, baseball,
Is that why i like being thrown around at times??? hehehehe ROFL.. Who knows!!:confused:

I grew up around boys also. It wasn't deliberate, it was just that I was the only girl in my neighborhood, so my early childhood was surrounded with boys my age. We played cowboys and indians, kickball, and tag. I continued the associations with boys through gradeschool and high school and college, and I find a lot of females are very vicious and catty. I don't play games, I'm a very straightforward person, and if I've got a problem with you, I come right out and say it and don't play the "guess what's bothering me" game. I think I don't play those games because I never learned how. LOL.

I got used to rough play, and I frequently played baseball (not softball! They're two different games, darnit!) and tackle football with my friends (and yes, I can throw a decent spiral), who sometimes actually FORGOT that I was female, because I was just one of the gang. I wouldn't have been caught dead in a dress. (now, I actually enjoy being girly on occasion, but not in grade school) I guess I just kind of got used to the bumps and bruises, so karate and I get along quite well.

as a sidenote:
I didn't own a barbie doll until I was 10, and when I got it (a gift from my aunt) I had no idea whatsoever what to do with it. LOL. It sat on the shelf, discarded in favor of the new baseball glove my friend Brent gave me.

I do have a few female friends, but they mostly tend to be tomboys like me. I don't tend to get along well with people who are afraid to get their hands dirty or afraid they might break a nail. Also, most females aren't interested in the stuff I'm interested in: Star Trek, Karate, and Classic Mustangs.

NIght...

I think we both fell out of the same tree.. your childhood seems very similar to mine (though i did spend most of it out in the backyard swamp catching various frogs, turltles and things)
You'll never see me in a dress (ok i can count on one hand how many times ive worn one and that was because i was standing up in a wedding) I love football, Hockey, Nascar, and of course MA.. and im quite proud of my cuts and bruises!! :D

Therefore.. contact in my MA hasn't been a problem for me, now I have Friends that wouldn't dream of taking MA.. they rely on their husbands to protect them.. sheesh.. (shaking my head):shrug:

Hey ladies...

Lets not give them the wrong impression!

We can still turn on the old charm when we want right? To be honest to be a tomboy most of the time and then turn on the charm can be considered the most disarming thing of all!

They start to treat as just one of the blokes and we turn it on and make them quake in their shoes! ;)

I really enjoy getting dressed up and going out somewhere and looking pretty... but I must admit that I did check to make sure I could do a sidekick in my prom dress. lol.

for some reason, though, I get approached by guys (read: hit on) more often when I'm outside in the parking lot of my apartment building changing the oil in my car rather than when I'm looking nice and wearing make-up. dunno what it is about the wearing coveralls and smeared with grease and motor oil look. I really don't get it.

<shrug>

Hahahahahaha...I think we both get that! ;)

Figures dunnit...they call us helpless and all they want is a hand with the car.

;)

Anyway...should let this get back to subject really - sorry folks :)

As a woman who got into Martial Arts quite late in life, I have practically been kicking myself for not getting into it when I was younger, and have given quite a bit of thought to why such training had seemed so inaccessible for so long. One reason that stands out in my mind is the intensity of public reactions towards women who engage in activities considered 'unfeminine' or 'violent' in our culture. For the most part, people have reacted with shock and disbelief upon discovering that I trained in Karate and enjoyed all things to do with MA. I can't tell you how many people have told me, "OMG you don't seem like a violent person to me!!!" Or, "Gee, what does you husband think about you doing THAT????" Or, "Why on earth would you want to hit people??" I'd been taught that girls are demure, hang their heads, and avert their eyes when spoken to. I'd been taught that girls dont make fists, or kick or punch. That kind of behaviour just wasn't considered appropriate for a well-brought -up young lady. I didn't want my daughter growing up without pride in her own physical power. I wanted her to have the opportunity to be something more than some man's doormat. That was why I signed her up in the first place. The fact that she wanted me to train with her was my original inspiration to give it a try. The same people who are shocked that I trained, are all for the idea that my daughter "learn to defend herself against all those sexual predators out to get young girls these days." Then they turn around and say "bit of a tom-boy, isn't she?" Jeesh!!!

Sometimes I really don't know what to think about the opinions of other people anymore. 'Popular Opinion' seems to influence people's personal opinions far more than their own experiences or common sense. I am constantly expected to justify why I am not raising my kids as 'everyone else' is. Or not behaving as 'other mothers do." Well, if my kids turn out just like everyone else's, I suppose I will feel as if I have failed as a parent. My own parents felt they had failed with me, because I had *not* turned out just like everyone else's daughter. The pendulum swings...

So, recently my daughter, now 10, a Blue Belt soon to be Green, has discovered she is far more accepted by her peers, as well as some adults, if she speaks, acts and dresses more 'girly.' No other girls she knows are into Martial Arts. Since I was disabled and have been unable to train, she seems to be feeling like the 'odd girl out.' I want her to feel that even though the other girls in our area don't train, that it's OK if she still does. But with puberty suddenly rearing it's ugly head, and her feelings running amok, she is suddenly feeling the pressure of 'Popular Opinion' more intensely than before, and now seems to be wondering why she seems so different from the other girls. I've moved her to a new school for 5th grade, and she wants desperately to fit in with the other girls. If anyone has any suggestions that will help me to encourage her to stick with Kenpo even though 'nobody else' does it, yet still fit in with the 'girly girls' I would appreciate you sharing your ideas with me. With only two weeks until school is back in session here, the pressure is mounting to choose the 'right' school clothes and be a sexy little airhead, just like everyone else. I'd especially appreciate the advice of any young women who trained in childhood and continued to train through puberty. :confused:

Well, I haven't trained from childhood or even through puberty since I've only been doing Aikido for 2 years and I'm 20 but as for the school thing.........have you considered homeschooling? I know homeschooling isn't for everyone but I've been homeschooled from 4th grade on up and I got a lot out of it. I never really had all the peer pressure either even though my family got together regularly with homeschool groups.

Robyn :asian:

Luckily I have a smart wife!

Originally posted by arnisador

Luckily I have a smart wife!

Cool! I like to hear of other people homeschooling! I hope your kid/kids are enjoying it. I personally liked homeschooling (even though it was still school) 100 times better than when I was in private school! I was teased somewhat at the private school.:( The only thing I didn't like was I still had to do my work even if I was sick since I was home anyway. :shrug:

Robyn;)

>GASP< I FINALLY HIT "GREEN BELT"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:cool::D HURRAY!!!!!!:D:cool:

Originally posted by tunetigress

One reason that stands out in my mind is the intensity of public reactions towards women who engage in activities considered 'unfeminine' or 'violent' in our culture. For the most part, people have reacted with shock and disbelief upon discovering that I trained in Karate and enjoyed all things to do with MA. I can't tell you how many people have told me, "OMG you don't seem like a violent person to me!!!" Or, "Gee, what does you husband think about you doing THAT????" Or, "Why on earth would you want to hit people??" I'd been taught that girls are demure, hang their heads, and avert their eyes when spoken to. I'd been taught that girls dont make fists, or kick or punch. That kind of behaviour just wasn't considered appropriate for a well-brought -up young lady.

This is why I brought up my post. Although I'm a man, I see it in a lot of the women around me. I think that the "recent" Fitness Kickboxing craze has turned this around a little, but still there's this apprehension about hitting people. They'll punch the air and some even punch bags, but sparring, no way...

Maybe it's a pipe dream until we can change people's perception of what the martial arts is. Wasn't it designed for the weaker person to defend themselves?

By the way, the tangent did prove very helpful to me. The problem I knew I had going in was that this was a MA forum and I was going to get biased opinions. The tangent showed me that women in the MA, at least the women that responded, see themselves as "tom boys", or at least did growing up. Do you think the big growth spurt of having kids in the MA will help the perception of women in the future? They'll already be exposed to it and can come back to it later on in life?

OK, here are some other thoughts. I've found that the women that I've been around the longest have a little easier time sparring with me (ok that doesn't sound right for some reason, they know me more so they hit me, hmmm :shrug:). I'm thinking about offering self-defense classes that start very easy and work into contact over time, allowing them to get comfortable with me and the training. Maybe start with seminars with little pad work and then work up to contact against a live attacker. Unfortunately that means it's not a 1 hour self-defense class, but will be over a several months. Thoughts?

WhiteBirch

what I've used to recruit a couple of girls into the studio

"Its like Tae Bo only much cooler"

Tune,

Has your daughter ever talk about her MA in school.. it might swing a couple of girls in her favor (sort of speak) I think that most kids (girls and boys) just don't think about MA and the practicalities (sp??) We as adults.. know what it does for us.. and what it can do for kids... maybe if your daughter did like a show and tell thing in school (geez do they still even do that anymore???) the kids might think she's cool and show interest.. maybe talk to her instuctor about doing a demo for the school.. I know that when our school does demo's.. all the kids just love us and we usually get a few to sigh up later too!!

Just my 2 cents

Best of luck to you!!
:asian:

Eraser and friends,
In little Tashtigress' old French Immersion school, which was in the same town as her Kenpo school, she did do a show and tell, and prior to Tournament they even gave her practice space so she could train at lunchtimes. They all thought she was awesomely kewl and the school population was very accepting of all kinds of different lifestyles. Unfortunately, my disability resulting from last year's chemical poisoning keeps me totally housebound and I had to pull my kids out of the school in town and put them into the country school which has a bus route that goes by our house.

The girls that go to the new school, many of them belonging to certain religious sects, are unbelievably 'girlie.' She was, for instance, informed that her favorite book, the Harry Potter series, is the 'work of the devil' and most of the girls in her new class had been forbidden to read it! She came home in shock about that one, precipitating a big discussion about the religions of the world. She really wants to fit in, but I think it came as a big surprise to her when I put her in that new school in May, that the girls seemed so different and unfriendly. Hair and clothes became the big focus as little Tash tried to fit in. But it just ain't 'her' and she didn't make one single girlfriend to hang with over the summer, tho she has made friends with a few of the boys that live nearby who like to bike and swim etc. I'm hoping that she can maintain pride in her accomplishments despite finding that not everyone in the world 'approves' of her lifestyle and interests. She is also very musical, like her momma, and perhaps she can capitalise on being a Violinist, which is, I suppose, a more acceptable activity for a 'girl' to be engaged in. I am just hesitating about 'briefing' her on how to act or what to say before she goes back to this school, as I really didn't want her to have to alter her already awesome personality and appearance for the benefit of a bunch of narrow-minded little girls who only like those just like themselves. But puberty approaches, and the pressure to fit in mounts. There's no sense wishing to go back to the old school, as I have no way to get her there, and she will have to learn to cope with the neighborhood school for the next 2 years.

Any tips on what to say to a 10 year old Kenpo Tomboy to help her understand and cope with her dismal lot in life would be of great help to me. I've just tried to keep it upbeat so far, and keep telling her it will be a whole new year, new kids, new friends and all, but after meeting a few of these girls, I am glad she doesn't like them, cuz they irritated the daylights out of me too! It is sooooo hard for a mother to keep her mouth shut, but until I can find the right words to say, I think that approach is best, lol. Thanks for your interest and ideas. :confused:

well hmmm....

If she plays violin, has she considered joining her school's orchestra?

Perhaps she could start a martial arts club on campus?

Try to get her involved in something like academic decathalon or science olympiad. Those kids tend to be a tight knit bunch, and a little more open minded than your average middle or high school age fluffbrain. Get her in groups of kids where intelligence and smart choices are valued rather than hair and clothes.

Keep in mind that there's nothing wrong with hanging out with the guys. As long as she has friends, in this day and age, it doesn't matter what gender they are.

The best scenario would be to find some way to get her back into the other school, but if that isn't possible, getting her involved in her new school is probably the way to go.

Well there's no turning back now! My hubby has gone and signed the kid up for another full year of private lessons and Saturday Group classes. We figured that two years from now when she enters Junior High school, she'll be a Brown Belt , and the rest of those girls will still be as silly and pathetic as they are today. The new school she will soon attend has no orchestra, or very many other extra-curricular activities, as it is out in the country and virtually all kids are bused.

Another thing good ole hubby did, was bring out to our house one of Tash's former classmates, the class 'brain' in fact, lol and they have been having a great time. The girl is still here after two days, and shows no sign of wanting to go back to town. I guess we might have to get creative in order for our daughter to have a social life without changing who she is.

I can really notice how many girls out here in this rural area are still expected to wear dresses and behave demurely, just as they were 40 years ago when I was a child. Until last year my kids and I spent all our time in town where there is an airbase, a big harbor, and people of all kinds from all over the world, many of whom sent their children to the French School that my daughter used to attend. The children there were quite accepting of the different appearance and interests of others, and these differences were celebrated and encouraged.

It really proves to me that it does matter where and how a girl is raised for her to feel comfortable with such things as hitting and being hit, or even to have the interest in attempting a traditionally 'male-oriented' activity such as a Martial Art, contact or no contact. The very idea of it is still highly unacceptable to a surprisingly large segment of the population. Sure its a good idea for a woman to be able to defend herself, but it still seems like the bottom line in our society is whether she will still be 'attractive' to men if she can. :rolleyes:

My reasoning is that if a guy doesn't like me for who I am, he's probably not worth the trouble. And if he's so insecure that he has issues with me taking karate, then I KNOW he's not the right guy for me.

My ex boyfriend (we broke up for non karate related reasons and still remain friends) used to tell me that he was really glad that I took karate, because when I went out with my friends, he felt that he didn't have to worry about me as much....course, he made this comment after watching me compete in a self defense division at a tournament. beforehand, he didn't believe me when I told him about some of the stuff I could do in karate and was always making comments when I asked him to do something like open a jelly jar like "sweetie, you're a wimp!" he was just teasing, but it bugged anyway, however, after dragging him to that tournament, the "wimp" comments stopped, and he thought it was kinda cool to have a girlfriend who could do stuff like that. I calmly explained to him that flipping 250 lb karate instructors to the ground and opening jelly jars use two different sets of muscles. <G>

Tune,

Its good to hear that you are still keeping your daughter in MA, From what you are saying it seems like she really enjoys it, and it might have been heartbreaking if she stopped... DOn't worry to much about her hanging with "the boys" I was the same way... never liked wearing dresses (still don't to this day.. yuck!) and I love going to my MA class.. Have faith she may find that one person there that she can connect with and have a long lasting freindship... I know that I would rather have one BEST friend rather than a dozen casual ones...

Tell your daughter keep up the good work in MA.. and High School will be much better.. I know it was for me!!!!

LOL! The issues with you adn your daughter sound mirror to mine, even down to the fact that our kids are blue belts and we study kempo!!

Right now, my daughter is 7 and starting first grade. She has, even in kindergarten, gotten some flack for not being a midriff baring lolita wanna-be. She is admonished to NOT use her karate in school. Her teacher told her that she is too stubborn and too loud. (Scuse me, but how the hell do you think women got the right to VOTE??) Little girls today are facing more in social pressure than ever before.

(I must say though, it is nauseating and disgusting that parents have balls to put their eight year olds in thongs and tiny tees and then ***** about sexual predators!! I wouldn't tie a steak around my kid's neck and then throw them in the lions cage!)

My answer, and saving grace in me and my daughter's life, is ROLE MODELS. Attach yourself and encourage friendships in strong women that set an example. They are everywhere. And there are young women craving role models like yourself, tunetigress! So many young people these days are robbed of someone to look up to- they are bounced from broken marriages to after school clubs to violent video games to crappy malls. I have attached myself to strong women of all sorts- from professors at my work, to Catholic housewives- and I have learned and been inspired by so many of them! They are the people your daughter will draw strength from when she has a bad day at school with small minded bullies and catty Lolita clones.

It is sad that as an american society, we have lost the place of the wise women in our lives. We answer no longer to our learned ancestors, but the call of the career and the big house and SUV. i am learning to replace the empty status of material with the love and wisdom of trusted friends. It is like comparing wishes to mountains- one is gone in a flash, and the other stands thourgh the ages.

We don't have to eschew our feminine side to succeed in martial arts- we simply have to learn to embrace ourselves as a whole. That is one of the most fun things about being a woman- having the ability to give birth, be maternal and loving, and yet go from an evening gown to a GI and kick some ass.

As for the rest of them that don't get it, ***** 'em.

Those are great comments about female role models. I have a young neighbor (5th grade or so?) whose life seems to revolve around the current female teen idol, whomever it may be at the time. My dad has often encouraged me to chat with her, and just be around, and wants me to be a potential role model for this girl. So I'm sneakily infiltrating over the fence, muahaha! I hope I'm a decent influence ^_^.

Anyway, my dad often talks to this girl's father, and happened to mention my activity in Kempo, and how reassured he felt with the things I was learning and all. The girl's dad seemed interested, perhaps it would be something she would be interested in also.

I also feel the same sense of being a good role model with two of my cousins. They live in Germany, and are visiting for my brother's wedding, so it'd been 5 years since I last saw them. It amazed me how much they look up to me! O.o I'm resolved to keep better contact with them, I wasn't aware that I was a role model without even realizing it.

So yes, I think finding strong female role models for young girls is important, and it is also important to *act* as a role model, because you're often doing it without knowing it, hehe.

talk to the girl about it without pressuring her, tell her how cool martial arts is and how much fun... if she thinks you're cool, she'll be begging her dad for lessons, no convincing required.

well I'm not a woman but I thought I would comment anyway. about girls being seen as tomboys, my opinion on the matter is "should you trust someone who would say "bit of a tom-boy, isn't she?" Don't they have a pre determined or at leaste jaded point of view?" The most important thing I learned socialy in school was it's not so much important to be freinds with the "in" crowd as much as it is to have good freinds.. but than again this is comming from someone who has always been quite anti-social (so I didn't mind if I only had a few freinds) Also from someone who was always very quick to retort to any agressive comment and to launch very effective verbal "counter strikes" (so I didn't catch any flack for anything I did from my pier group). But from a third person perspective, watching freinds and fammily grow up in simular situations, what is important to the child is to have options, it seems the worst thing would be for her to feal forced to abandon the people at school or to be forced to mimic them. I would say give her every oportunity to see the outside world (outside of the local community) let her see that being like those girls at school is most deffinatly not the only option. Also if at all posable give her every oportunity to hang around her old freinds.. they sounded like the kind of people that were accepting of her and it sounded like she liked them. Wether she would chose to quit kempo or ignore the peopel at school or what ever, if she has options she will realise what is best.

As to the question of guys hitting on galls doing guyish (is that even a word?) stuff, It has been my experience guys tend to like women who have simularities to themselves, athletic guys like athletic women, role players like roleplayers, chess fiends like chess fiends, the only exception that comes to mind is the typical highschool jock/chearleader situation (wich doesn't seem to apear as much in adult life). And as for high school and to give an example, of all my soccer team mates, I don't think I recal one that dident comment at sometime about likeing female soccer players and alot of them dated other soccer players.. As for martial arts, alot of guys I know have had their girl freinds visit their martial arts school.. There realy isn't anything inherantly unattractive about someone being a "tomboy" if anything it's easyer to relate to the person.