Sparring a 14 yr old BB

[AceHBK]

Ok I need some advice here you guys.
My Master let me know last night that we will have a 14 yr old 2Dan BB coming to join us for awhile and may join if she likes it. She wants more intense training and a good Master to learn from so that is why she is trying us out.

Here is the issue....

Being I am the highest ranked student at Blue Belt I will have to spar against her. I feel weird sparring at 14 yr old then a girl at that. Yes she is a 2nd Dan but damn. She ompeted at the US Open and all here in Texas. My Master said she is really good.

1..Do I call her Master? (Im 28..even though age has nothing to do with it but 14yr old and I call her Master, I wont lie, it will feel very weird)

2. Do you take it easy on her? I mean hell it will be hard to go full out...now maybe if she caught me one good time I may not be able to hold back but you understand.

3. How would you handle the situation?

[terryl965]

Ok I need some advice here you guys.
My Master let me know last night that we will have a 14 yr old 2Dan BB coming to join us for awhile and may join if she likes it. She wants more intense training and a good Master to learn from so that is why she is trying us out.

Here is the issue....

Being I am the highest ranked student at Blue Belt I will have to spar against her. I feel weird sparring at 14 yr old then a girl at that. Yes she is a 2nd Dan but damn. She ompeted at the US Open and all here in Texas. My Master said she is really good.

1..Do I call her Master? (Im 28..even though age has nothing to do with it but 14yr old and I call her Master, I wont lie, it will feel very weird)

2. Do you take it easy on her? I mean hell it will be hard to go full out...now maybe if she caught me one good time I may not be able to hold back but you understand.

3. How would you handle the situation?

Let start out like this what is her name since I'm in Texas I know just about every Elite BB there is also I was at the US Open for the entire wek so I probaly saw her, Here is the thing she is a second so not a DAN she is a Poom until 15 and then if she is Kukkiwon she has to declare to change from Poom to Dan ranking second thing she is not a Master in TKD she is a 2nd noty a 4th so why would you call her Master at all.

Now on to your question she is 14 so her division is 14-17 years old and she is as good as your instructor says she is then she is also fighting 17-32 year old division and if that is the case then all is far and on equal ground in the ring her skill level will certainly over come your strength against her at this point in your training.

I would treat her like any BB at the school with respect she has earned over her career. Competing at the US Open her in Dallas means she is of upper calibur they do not send average players to get themself hurt or injured.

Just out of cureiosty who is your instructor and what school do you go to here in Texas.

Master Stopker
Twin Dragons MAS
Arlington Texas

This is me.

[Martial Tucker]

Ok I need some advice here you guys.
My Master let me know last night that we will have a 14 yr old 2Dan BB coming to join us for awhile and may join if she likes it. She wants more intense training and a good Master to learn from so that is why she is trying us out.

Here is the issue....

Being I am the highest ranked student at Blue Belt I will have to spar against her. I feel weird sparring at 14 yr old then a girl at that. Yes she is a 2nd Dan but damn. She ompeted at the US Open and all here in Texas. My Master said she is really good.

1..Do I call her Master? (Im 28..even though age has nothing to do with it but 14yr old and I call her Master, I wont lie, it will feel very weird)

2. Do you take it easy on her? I mean hell it will be hard to go full out...now maybe if she caught me one good time I may not be able to hold back but you understand.

3. How would you handle the situation?

1. She is not a Master. She is not even a Sabumnin. Call her ma'am.

2. I would try as hard as I can to hit her, but not with full force. After all, she IS a 14 year old girl, and you're 28 (and male, I assume). If she goes all out on you, turn it up a notch, but there's still no reason to hurt her. Maybe she is good, maybe she isn't, but I'm guessing you can learn from her. I have a big problem with the concept of a 14 yr old second dan, but if your teacher says she's good, forget about rank and try to learn something.

[IcemanSK]

Humilty is one of the great lessons of the martial arts. Its a bummer that in this one place in the world, a 14 year old girl garners more respect than you. But she's earned it. And you may just learn something from her.

I don't mean to be harsh: believe me, I get it. I've been training for more than 24 years (yet I'm a Second Dan). The kid (all 18 years of him) who teaches the kids karate class I assist in is a 3rd Dan. Yes, I've got uniforms older than him, but I give him as much respect as I do all 3rd Dans. And he's got good skills & I learn things from him.

It will work out fine. She'll help you & you will be able to help her, too.

[AceHBK]

Let start out like this what is her name since I'm in Texas I know just about every Elite BB there is also I was at the US Open for the entire wek so I probaly saw her, Here is the thing she is a second so not a DAN she is a Poom until 15 and then if she is Kukkiwon she has to declare to change from Poom to Dan ranking second thing she is not a Master in TKD she is a 2nd noty a 4th so why would you call her Master at all.

Now on to your question she is 14 so her division is 14-17 years old and she is as good as your instructor says she is then she is also fighting 17-32 year old division and if that is the case then all is far and on equal ground in the ring her skill level will certainly over come your strength against her at this point in your training.

I would treat her like any BB at the school with respect she has earned over her career. Competing at the US Open her in Dallas means she is of upper calibur they do not send average players to get themself hurt or injured.

Just out of cureiosty who is your instructor and what school do you go to here in Texas.

Master Stopker
Twin Dragons MAS
Arlington Texas

This is me.

Ok I will take everyone's advise and not go into the situation with a closed mind.
I called my master earlier and asked him these questions and it was then (after i started the thread) that I dont have to call her Master. Not saying if I wouldnt if that was the proper greeting.
I guess this part of TKD and all has me like, "ok this seems totally weird".

Terry we right now have our school in Gold Gym in Carrollton until we get enough students to start our own school. Martial Arts USA is the name of the school. My Master name is Mike Hammoud and he is a 4th Dan. As for the girl I don't know her name or anything. I wont get to meet her till later this week.

[BrandiJo]

i would say good advice by all, but me being a girl i want to add in she is 14 shes growing and changing and her body is rather sensitve right now (the chest area ...atleast mine was) so i would sparr with her like anyone else but keep in mind she is still a child and is still growing so be more careful as to not hurt her...rank does not mean shes any less injrable. just my two cents :)

[terryl965]

Ok I will take everyone's advise and not go into the situation with a closed mind.
I called my master earlier and asked him these questions and it was then (after i started the thread) that I dont have to call her Master. Not saying if I wouldnt if that was the proper greeting.
I guess this part of TKD and all has me like, "ok this seems totally weird".

Terry we right now have our school in Gold Gym in Carrollton until we get enough students to start our own school. Martial Arts USA is the name of the school. My Master name is Mike Hammoud and he is a 4th Dan. As for the girl I don't know her name or anything. I wont get to meet her till later this week.

I'm glad to got the answer you where looking for and keep thye mind open. I do not know your school but I know your Master, tell him I said hello.
Terry

[AceHBK]

I'm glad to got the answer you where looking for and keep thye mind open. I do not know your school but I know your Master, tell him I said hello.
Terry

I will thanks!! He started the school a lil over a year ago and we have a lot of kids in the kids class but trying to get some more adults so that we can get our own school.
I will tell him you said hello. I did mention your name but couldnt remember the last name for the life of me yesterday.

[AceHBK]

Brandi..I will, thanks.

I wonder for the guys who have sparred against females, how do u feel?
I have this thing about throwing punches and kicks towards a female, I just cant do it!!! LOL.

My g/f and I may wrestle but I can't even act like we are sparring cause I feel weird about it.

Does it take for a woman to hit u one good time before any reservations you had about hitting her hard went out the window??

[BrandiJo]

well dont worry about hitting us, we sign up just like eveyone else and know what we are getting into. I have had had guys who are so worried about hurting me that it takes all the fun out of it and i have had guys who go so hard that i have brused my ribs. It would be nice if everyone knew that happy balance between controling power and being overly protective...it willt ake practice i guess but dont be afraid to treat her like you would any other 14 yr old you are sparring...i think if you keep in account her age the fact that she is female wont be much of an issue.

but for the record getting hit in the boobs do hurt but you learn to block quickly :)

[TigerWoman]

I would go with the skill vs strength, but pull back your strikes as she is, a smaller frame, weight and is tender in the chest. I can't see a 14 yr. old being that good. In our school she would have gotten 1st poom at age 11, joined at age 8. About the same as my son who was a great technician and could hit really hard but he had weight on him at 14.

She would have not had they physical strength requirements of an adult - half boards before age 13. Technically she should be advanced though. So you should not be able to hit her especially if she moves real well. I think it will be an adjustment for you and all the students who spar her, just ease into it slowly. TW

[Kacey]

I would have to agree with the previous posters - at 2nd Dan, she is not a Master, so that is a non-issue - like any other female student, you should address her as "ma'am" or "Ms. ______".

As far as sparring her goes - if she's competing at the level you say she is, then she has the technical ability necessary to defend herself. The concern should be about the size and strength difference between the two of you - not her age or gender, although they affect the size and strength issue. One of the most proficient martial artists I have ever seen was a gentleman who was 5'4" - but he could spar on an equal level with people a foot taller than himself and 100 pounds heavier, because he had an amazing amount of skill.

Rank is based on skill - not age, size or gender, although those all play into a student's ability to learn the skills necessary to earn the rank. Rather than concerning yourself with this young woman's age and gender, you need to observe the skills that she has learned in attaining her current rank, so that you may improve your own skills as well.

[SAVAGE]

I am the oldest guy in my Judo Dojo..I am a white belt!

I am the oldest guy in my Karate Dojo..I am a orange belt!

Alot of the juniors (in age) are higher ranked than me...do I have a problem being corrected by a 14 year old 2nd dan...hell no! I learn from a six year old if what he said made sense (and six year olds do make alot of sense)!

I bow to a 7 year old green belt...why because that is the way I was raised in my MA...he put in the time...he got the rank...he deserves the respect that goes along with it....PERIOD!

Just enjoy yourself with her...train hard and push her to her limits (that is why she is coming to you guys right...for more challanges)!

Dont get caught up in the rank issue and what you have to call her...its just the way it is!

[tshadowchaser]

jumping into this late but here are my 2 cents worth

1. She is a 2nd dan she damn well better be able to block I dont care how old she is if she is wearing that rank she had better be able to handle herslef in the ring/age division she signs up for.
2. A 2nd degree has no business being in the same ring as a purple belt but sparring one in class is different. She should have more knowledge and be faster than you so find out if she is. If she trys to hurt you to prove she is better , well you work that out ( i only know how I would react) No you dont want to hurt her if not nessicary but you dont want to get hurt either so protect yourslef
3. call her mam she is far from being a master (in age, mentality, and rank)

[Laborn]

I've beat 2 adults in tournaments, but i was also totally destroyed, by a 13 year old, age doesn't make much dif in some cases.

[Gary Crawford]

I feel for you! I have a 14 yr old son who is a 1st dan and is damn fast! I think what all the previous poster have said about respecting her rank is right on the money(and I think you knew that already at blue belt). Yes you can and should learn allot from sparring with her,however,what has been said about not hurting her is also very true. You can pull your power without pulling your speed. Speed and footwork is probably the lesson you will learn from her,especially the speed! Also, keep in mind,since she is 14,she may not see the need to pull her kicks,so watch out! If nothing else,you will learn to keep your hands up! Good luck to you!

[kenpojujitsu]

Ok I need some advice here you guys.
My Master let me know last night that we will have a 14 yr old 2Dan BB coming to join us for awhile and may join if she likes it. She wants more intense training and a good Master to learn from so that is why she is trying us out.

Here is the issue....

Being I am the highest ranked student at Blue Belt I will have to spar against her. I feel weird sparring at 14 yr old then a girl at that. Yes she is a 2nd Dan but damn. She ompeted at the US Open and all here in Texas. My Master said she is really good.

1..Do I call her Master? (Im 28..even though age has nothing to do with it but 14yr old and I call her Master, I wont lie, it will feel very weird)

2. Do you take it easy on her? I mean hell it will be hard to go full out...now maybe if she caught me one good time I may not be able to hold back but you understand.

3. How would you handle the situation?

3) A 14 year old black belt is ridiculous. I would look for a school with more realistic standards.
2) If she is a true 2nd Dan, then there is no reason for you to have to hold back. She can take it. If she can't, see the answer to #3.
1) A mere 2nd Dan is 6 degrees away from being a master. A 14 year old is 40 years away from being a master. If you want to call her master, that is your choice. A 14 year old master is more ridiculous than a 14 year old black belt. If you are required to call her master, you may want to follow the advice given in the answer to #3.

[cali_tkdbruin]

Ok, let me weigh in with my opinion. First, since she's only 14 and a 2nd black belt, she normally would be considered a 2nd poom black belt, not a second dan black. This is the Kukkiwon guideline. Second, as was previously mentioned, she is certainly not yet a master. That's reserved for 4th dan black belt holders and above.

I respect all of the hard work required to reach 2nd black, but I wouldn't call her a Sabumnim just yet...:asian:

[kenposikh]

Hi Personally her age should not come into question, however some issues do unfortunately rear their ugly heads for example child protection.

Technically she is a child and sparring with adults certainly here in the UK with child protection this and child protection that it would certainly be frowned upon.

Just wondering what issues would be raised in your area let's say for instance she takes a knock takes it gracefully and then decides to sue at a later time.

just my thoughts

[Zepp]

Just wondering what issues would be raised in your area let's say for instance she takes a knock takes it gracefully and then decides to sue at a later time.

That shouldn't be an issue anywhere in the U.S., just so long as the child is partcipating with her parents' permission. I would assume that in this case the instructor requires the girl's parents to sign a waiver. Whether it's an adult or a child, to sue for an accident in sparring they would have to prove that either the instructor was negligent, or that someone deliberately tried to cause them injury.

BTW, personally, I wouldn't care if someone is a 10th dan and 80 years old, I still wouldn't call them "master" when speaking to them. "Sir," "ma'am," and "Mr./Ms. So-and-so" are acceptable under any situation.

[kenposikh]

That shouldn't be an issue anywhere in the U.S., just so long as the child is partcipating with her parents' permission. I would assume that in this case the instructor requires the girl's parents to sign a waiver. Whether it's an adult or a child, to sue for an accident in sparring they would have to prove that either the instructor was negligent, or that someone deliberately tried to cause them injury.

BTW, personally, I wouldn't care if someone is a 10th dan and 80 years old, I still wouldn't call them "master" when speaking to them. "Sir," "ma'am," and "Mr./Ms. So-and-so" are acceptable under any situation.

Ok thanks for that, This is an issue that has come to my mind recently and I still see loopholes maybe where there aren't any. BUt I suppose a waiver signed by parents and student should cover it.

[terryl965]

Hi Personally her age should not come into question, however some issues do unfortunately rear their ugly heads for example child protection.

Technically she is a child and sparring with adults certainly here in the UK with child protection this and child protection that it would certainly be frowned upon.

Just wondering what issues would be raised in your area let's say for instance she takes a knock takes it gracefully and then decides to sue at a later time.

just my thoughts
-
Here she can spar 14-17 year old division and also 18-32 year old if she chooses to and is good enough and please child laws we have athletes that compete at the olympic games when the are 12 if they are good enough against grown adults what make you think in sport TKD this can;t be done. You say you are from the UK well they was at the US open just last week and had a 15 year old guy compete in the 19-32 year old brackets so it happens all the time. Does it make it right maybe maybe not.
Terry

[kenposikh]

-
Here she can spar 14-17 year old division and also 18-32 year old if she chooses to and is good enough and please child laws we have athletes that compete at the olympic games when the are 12 if they are good enough against grown adults what make you think in sport TKD this can;t be done. You say you are from the UK well they was at the US open just last week and had a 15 year old guy compete in the 19-32 year old brackets so it happens all the time. Does it make it right maybe maybe not.
Terry

Hi Terry,

I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way I didn't mean to.

if yo re-read my posts I just wanted to know how these situations are handled in the studios and not the public sport arena. This question was answered.

Amrik

[terryl965]

Hi Terry,

I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way I didn't mean to.

if yo re-read my posts I just wanted to know how these situations are handled in the studios and not the public sport arena. This question was answered.

Amrik
No offense was taken just always looking at other point of views, sport TKD is so much different than a real SD stituation and alot of people ndo not undrstand the concept.
Terry

[kenposikh]

No offense was taken just always looking at other point of views, sport TKD is so much different than a real SD stituation and alot of people ndo not undrstand the concept.
Terry

I understand :)

[AceHBK]

Thanks for all the info in here.
We will see how it goes this friday if we spar as planned and see how good she is at foot tag. lol
I am open to learn all that I can from her and I have the get past the metal block of her being 14. Even tho I do TKD I am not a fan of WTF sparring. I feel it takes a dimension away from a fighter especially if you are taking TKD for SD and not for just the sport aspect of it.

I will be honest and admit calling a kid ma'am or sir is kind of hard. It is like going to my job and having a 14 yr old boss and calling them the samething. Naturally you would be like "u gotta b kidding me" Hell I call my boss and my V.P. of engineering of my company by their first name. I guess being by myself for so long in TKD I still have yet to learn the "finer points" of TKD.
I sometimes teach the kids and adult classes and of course I see a 14yr old as a kid. Now I may need to adjust that thinking in MA when it comes to rank but I still see a kid.

I will take what everyone said and will apply it and see how it goes.
I really hope it works out well.

Now will someone just remind me what sparring rules are?
I know we do WTF.

When y Master and I spar, I can kick anywhere and punch anywhere. I have been doing this since I started TKD a year ago. I will say making the adjustment to just feet to the chest will be difficult if that is all that is allowed. I could call and ask him...BUT you all are so great with advice and help why not ask u all??

[wynnema]

she should be a junior blackbelt so although she has reached the required technical acumen - she is not seen by the Kukkiwon as mature. I dont agree with some comments people have made that she should be able to take on anyone because she is a 2nd Dan. This is the reason the Kukkiwon system doesnt allow you to hold full Dan status until you are 16 - maybe we shouldnt allow any blackbelts before 16. I've heard of clubs with 3rd Dans at 14 - but believe the individuals were truly talented and commited. We have a couple of 2nd Dan kids (I am 2nd Dan). They are helpful to the lower belts with technical elements even adults in their 30's and 40's but they are still kids and there is no sir/maam - that would be ridiculous.. Having said that our club is relaxed with things like that, I still call the Chief Instructor by his first name even though he is a 5th Dan.

[kenpojujitsu]

That shouldn't be an issue anywhere in the U.S., just so long as the child is partcipating with her parents' permission.

Actually, it IS an issue.
Ask your lawyer on this:
Liability waivers do not protect you in the case of negligence.

Putting a black belt on a 14 year old girl and having her spar with an adult is negligent.

In the event of injury, this girl's parents can sue the instructor and the adult that hurt her and they will win.

[terryl965]

Actually, it IS an issue.
Ask your lawyer on this:
Liability waivers do not protect you in the case of negligence.

Putting a black belt on a 14 year old girl and having her spar with an adult is negligent.

In the event of injury, this girl's parents can sue the instructor and the adult that hurt her and they will win.

It has all the time in Sport TKD the US OPen was in town last week and we had 14 years old fighting the 18-32 year old brackets and let see Basketball leagues for the Elites that are 12-15 are going against grown men in these summer leagues and lets not forget about Baseball they use 12 year old if they are good enough and lets not even get into hockey or football.

We send athletes to the Olympics games with childern participating look at the tennis players at wimberdon at the age of 12 going against grown ups..

My God people have everybody been living in the deepest part of the woods for the last thirty year or have we as a society just grown to accept certain things as being alright and other as off limits.

Wait did'nt girl start to compete in football Ou my god what is next, that is right MA it is the football basketball and baseball of yester year get use to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Terry Lee Stoker

PM my brothe ris a corporate Attorney and the waiver that most school have will save your bUtt if it comes down to it.

[AceHBK]

I have to agree with Terry on this issue.
Negligence would mean the school letting her spar without signing a waiver as well as sparring without the proper sparring gear.

Also presedence will have been set if she competes at such events as the US Open and has been in brackets where she faces older people. There is a implied danger than can occur and she knows of this. Just like you can't sue if u get hit by a baseball during a pop fly at a baseball game. By going you understand certain risks are involved.

Again you have to DEFINE negligence and apply it to this case and you se that it cant be applied unless certain precautions didnt take place.

[Touch Of Death]

Ok I need some advice here you guys.
My Master let me know last night that we will have a 14 yr old 2Dan BB coming to join us for awhile and may join if she likes it. She wants more intense training and a good Master to learn from so that is why she is trying us out.

Here is the issue....

Being I am the highest ranked student at Blue Belt I will have to spar against her. I feel weird sparring at 14 yr old then a girl at that. Yes she is a 2nd Dan but damn. She ompeted at the US Open and all here in Texas. My Master said she is really good.

1..Do I call her Master? (Im 28..even though age has nothing to do with it but 14yr old and I call her Master, I wont lie, it will feel very weird)

2. Do you take it easy on her? I mean hell it will be hard to go full out...now maybe if she caught me one good time I may not be able to hold back but you understand.

3. How would you handle the situation?First of all you are full grown adult male and she is a fourteen year old girl. If you don't think you can hold back then you need to tell your instructor you know you don't have control and that you should not be sparring her or anyone that he hopes to keep as a student. Next, you need some serious lessons in control. Your instructor will appreciate your concern. This is a timing issue and they can literaly beat it out of you. One of two things usualy happen, you'll either stay and become a mature martial artist or you will not stay. This is a crucial time for you. Good luck on your journey.
Sean

[AceHBK]

First of all you are full grown adult male and she is a fourteen year old girl. If you don't think you can hold back then you need to tell your instructor you know you don't have control and that you should not be sparring her or anyone that he hopes to keep as a student. Next, you need some serious lessons in control. Your instructor will appreciate your concern. This is a timing issue and they can literaly beat it out of you. One of two things usualy happen, you'll either stay and become a mature martial artist or you will not stay. This is a crucial time for you. Good luck on your journey.
Sean

I understand what you are saying and can agree.
I wont go and try to hit with full power but at the same time as someone pointed out, if she is a 2nd Dan (and competes at the US Open) then she should know how to protect herself.

[terryl965]

I understand what you are saying and can agree.
I wont go and try to hit with full power but at the same time as someone pointed out, if she is a 2nd Dan (and competes at the US Open) then she should know how to protect herself.

At this stage in here life she better or take up underwater basket weaving it is a great sport you know!!!!

Terry

[BrandiJo]

I understand what you are saying and can agree.
I wont go and try to hit with full power but at the same time as someone pointed out, if she is a 2nd Dan (and competes at the US Open) then she should know how to protect herself.

regardless of her rank you still must respect that she is a child, i am not sure how the US open works but i dont think mearly competing in an event qualifyers you to be able to hit her full power, after all even the greatest MA's still may miss and take a hit once in awhile

[Kacey]

but they are still kids and there is no sir/maam - that would be ridiculous..

In my opinion, this is no reason not to show respect - in many ways, it is a reason to do so. I call all of my students sir/ma'am - regardless of age, gender, or rank. This has spilled over from my TKD students to the students I teach math to in a middle school - and I firmly believe that the respect I show them is part of why I get respect in return, and have very few discipline problems with my middle school students.


Having said that our club is relaxed with things like that, I still call the Chief Instructor by his first name even though he is a 5th Dan.

This is a different issue entirely. If you don't call your instructor sir, then it would follow that more junior students would also be addressed informally. Respect can be demonstrated in many ways - formality of address is only one way, using a familiar form of address is not disrespectful unless the person addressing someone informally is going against the norms of the situation. Again, however, in my opinion, respect is due for a variety of reasons, and simply because a student is younger than a certain age does not mean that respect should not be shown.

[Marginal]

regardless of her rank you still must respect that she is a child, i am not sure how the US open works but i dont think mearly competing in an event qualifyers you to be able to hit her full power, after all even the greatest MA's still may miss and take a hit once in awhile

Since most people I've sparred kinda feel out the power level during the first few exchanges, I'm wondering how good an idea it is to go in with a predetermined level of force without even having met the other party in the sparring session.

Can't remember the last time I sat around thinking "Ok, they're going to have me spar a 5th dan next week. I better go 89% vs my usual 56.8%..."

[Kacey]

Since most people I've sparred kinda feel out the power level during the first few exchanges, I'm wondering how good an idea it is to go in with a predetermined level of force without even having met the other party in the sparring session.

Indeed. Assuming things can lead to misconceptions. One of my female students, now a 1st Dan but then a yellow or green belt, was, at 14, 5'11" - making her the second-tallest person in the class (the other being a young man of 16, who was 6' even) and a good 6 inches taller than I am. Now she's almost 20 (gad, I'm old...) and 6'2".

[cali_tkdbruin]

.
.
.
We have a couple of 2nd Dan kids (I am 2nd Dan). They are helpful to the lower belts with technical elements even adults in their 30's and 40's but they are still kids and there is no sir/maam - that would be ridiculous.. Having said that our club is relaxed with things like that, I still call the Chief Instructor by his first name even though he is a 5th Dan.

Sounds like it's kinda casual at your dojang. I'm a grown man, and I train under a Saubumnim who's just a month older than me, but he's been training for in TKD for a lot of years now. He started in Korea when he was 7, and he has a bunch more gold stripes on his BB than I do (he's a 7th dan, I'm just a pissant 2nd). I always refer to him as sir or Sabumnim. I have never addressed him by his first name even though I've been training under him for years now.

[Jonathan Randall]

In my opinion, this is no reason not to show respect - in many ways, it is a reason to do so. I call all of my students sir/ma'am - regardless of age, gender, or rank. This has spilled over from my TKD students to the students I teach math to in a middle school - and I firmly believe that the respect I show them is part of why I get respect in return, and have very few discipline problems with my middle school students.

As usual, you are full of wisdom! I couldn't agree with you more. This teaches respect and courtesy by example and is an extremely powerful method of indoctrinating young people in basic manners.

[hong kong fooey]

I don't think you will have to call her Master.

and just because she's 14 dosen't mean you have to go easy with her but don't go nuts either

[CrankyDragon]

I don't think you will have to call her Master.

and just because she's 14 dosen't mean you have to go easy with her but don't go nuts either

I agree, if shes a GOOD BB, then she should be able to be victorious in a match, given the rank. But Id maker her earn the victory. :-)

[DeLamar.J]

Ok I need some advice here you guys.
My Master let me know last night that we will have a 14 yr old 2Dan BB coming to join us for awhile and may join if she likes it. She wants more intense training and a good Master to learn from so that is why she is trying us out.

Here is the issue....

Being I am the highest ranked student at Blue Belt I will have to spar against her. I feel weird sparring at 14 yr old then a girl at that. Yes she is a 2nd Dan but damn. She ompeted at the US Open and all here in Texas. My Master said she is really good.

1..Do I call her Master? (Im 28..even though age has nothing to do with it but 14yr old and I call her Master, I wont lie, it will feel very weird)

2. Do you take it easy on her? I mean hell it will be hard to go full out...now maybe if she caught me one good time I may not be able to hold back but you understand.

3. How would you handle the situation?I think that unless this 14 year old can handle adult contact, then this 14 yearold should not be called by adult titles. Very simple.

[Touch Of Death]

I think that unless this 14 year old can handle adult contact, then this 14 yearold should not be called by adult titles. Very simple.Adult contact and adults having a lack of control are two different things. I doubt she would ever be able to take a full on roundhouse kick to the head from a six foot ten 350 lb assailant. Does that mean she should never hold an adult title? Should any woman hold that rank... ever?
Sean

[Kacey]

I think that unless this 14 year old can handle adult contact, then this 14 yearold should not be called by adult titles. Very simple.

So does that mean that adults who cannot handle adult contact should not be called by adult titles? I know a woman who is a high red belt... and also a 68 year-old grandmother, about 5'2" - I suspect that the 14 year-old BB could handle 'adult contact' much more easily than this lady can. Does that mean that she, also, should not be called by adult titles? What about a woman I knew who was only 5' tall, 100 pounds, and a III Dan? She coudln't take 'adult contact' - she didn't have the body mass, despite being in her 30s. What about a student I had some years ago who, at 15, was 6'2" and lifted weights? He could take 'adult contact'... so did he deserve a different title than a 14 year-old girl who outranks him (he was a green belt at the time)?

Rank is earned through hard work - and that hard work deserves respect. Formal address is one form of address; given that AceHBK calls his instructor by his first name, that may not be the demonstration of respect that is appropriate in his class - but that does not change the fact that this young woman has earned the same amount of respect as any other person who has earned that rank. Her size, age, and gender may dictate the level of contact she can take - but not the amount of respect her rank is due.

[DeLamar.J]

In responce to the two above posts, I feel that rank and titles are given out way to easy nowadays. If you are a master, or blackbelt, but cant even spar with a bigger stronger opponent without getting hurt, I see that as a problem.
If your an old man or woman who has earned the right in the past to wear a black belt and be called master, then that is a whole different story. There are countless situations, what if this or that, ect ect.
To be a master requires alot of years of training, and no 14 year old is cabable of this because they have not lived long enough to study the years required for this title. No teenager should be called master, its absurd.
Martial arts isnt all about fighting, I realize this. But if you cant get out there and bang with the big dogs, or was able to at one point, then the title of master, or a black belt should not be given. The standards for blackbelt are so FREAKING LOW. Its unbelievable!
There should be higher standards for rank. If you are just too small framed and weak to meet the standard, or too old, you should not be awarded the rank. When anyone can get a rank based on effort, the rank does not mean anything anymore. If you cant get out there and spar hard contact with strong fighters, then your rank should never go beyond a certain point until you are able to do that. In most schools, if you just stick it out long enough you will get your blackbelt, regardless if your capable of using what you have learned or not.
Having a blackbelt is just a joke now, and its just going to get worse. In a system of 12, 12 being black belt, If you cannot handle, or at least put up a damn good fight against a big strong fighter, you should never get past the 6th or 7th belt until you can. These are my standards, and I dont expect everyone to agree. But you have to agree that a blackbelt is a joke now.

[Marginal]

When anyone can get a rank based on effort, the rank does not mean anything anymore.

That's silly. A black belt's always been a subjective measure. All it'll ever mean is whatever you load up onto the concept. Some think it's a certificate that proves they're an offical hardcase, some think it's an invitation to an exclusive manners club that for some reason involves wearing pajamas and kinda speaking Korean every once and awhile. If someone is on the floor who can't handle themselves, how exactly does that devalue your BB? Why does an old master who can't keep up with the younger students get his belt rescinded in your ideal system? He's terrible now, who cares what he knows, or what he can pass on, he can't take a hit from Bob Sapp! (This proves whatever he's done in the past is a waste of time.)

[DeLamar.J]

That's silly. A black belt's always been a subjective measure. All it'll ever mean is whatever you load up onto the concept. Some think it's a certificate that proves they're an offical hardcase, some think it's an invitation to an exclusive manners club that for some reason involves wearing pajamas and kinda speaking Korean every once and awhile. If someone is on the floor who can't handle themselves, how exactly does that devalue your BB? Why does an old master who can't keep up with the younger students get his belt rescinded in your ideal system? He's terrible now, who cares what he knows, or what he can pass on, he can't take a hit from Bob Sapp! (This proves whatever he's done in the past is a waste of time.)I think you missed what I said about an old master. If he has proven his effectiveness in the past, then its ok.

[Adept]

These are my standards

No, they appear to be the standards you want everyone else to abide by.

Personally, I don't give a rats pyjamas about what ranks or belts other people are given any more. It used to be something that bothered me, seeing people being awarded rank that I didn't feel they'd earned, or seeing people given the same or better rank than myself, when I knew I was a superior fighter, it used to make me feel de-valued.

But in reflection, it's a petty and small-minded way to think. I don't care what ranks other people have any more, and I encourage everyone else to stop focusing on who earns what belt (or not) and instead focus on their own training and skills.

In terms of rank, not everyone needs to be able to 'bang with the big boys' to be eligible for any kind of rank. I wouldn't expect the #1 bantam weight boxer to get in the ring with the #1 super heavyweight. But that doesn't de-value anyones rank. In fact, it doesn't mean anything at all.

[terryl965]

I have to agree with Adept rank means absolutely nothing in the scheme of training, all it means here in the states for the most part is either you and a bunch of body cross ranked each other so everybody can be a Master or you are ranked fort he sole purpose of being able to get your school ranked with some affiliation so they believe it is worth something.

People hold to much into it here, this 14 year old girl is a prime example of western TKD and the sport, she probaly train 2-4 a day to be at the top of her game in sport TKD and she is good enough to compete at the US Open big event here, but in no way is she a Master even if she has a 4th at 15 I would not call her Master, I would give her respect for she and everybody else I meet I call them sir or maam no-mattewr how old just the way I was bought up.

Fianally given respect is the right thing to do n-matter race, religion, or age, it is something that most of us was given at a young age and the society of today is trying to take away from our ancestors, me for one will always give into the ideal of respect, courtesy and indomital spirit for that is the only way.

Terry Lee Stoker

[Marginal]

I think you missed what I said about an old master. If he has proven his effectiveness in the past, then its ok.

No it's not because he cannot take such a hit any more. Therefore, he's unqualified to be a BB. I mean, if he can't meet minimum standards, why should he be allowed to maintain a rank he now cheapens?

[wynnema]

No it's not because he cannot take such a hit any more. Therefore, he's unqualified to be a BB. I mean, if he can't meet minimum standards, why should he be allowed to maintain a rank he now cheapens?

so are you saying a master who has been training for 30/40 years should be as effective as say a 21 year old.? And if not he should give up his dan status?

[Adept]

so are you saying a master who has been training for 30/40 years should be as effective as say a 21 year old.? And if not he should give up his dan status?

No, Marginal is highlighting that point in order to discredit DeLamar.J's point about ranks and standards.

[IcemanSK]

So Ace, how is it going? I'm guessing you've met this gal by now. What have your impressions & experiences been?

[AceHBK]

So Ace, how is it going? I'm guessing you've met this gal by now. What have your impressions & experiences been?

LOL!! I was going to give u all a update but this thread took a different turn and I didnt want to interrupt. :)

Funny thing is, we had a thunderstorm here this past friday and she no called/no showed. *shrugs* Hopefully she will call or something. I will definately keep everyone posted though.

[IcemanSK]

LOL!! I was going to give u all a update but this thread took a different turn and I didnt want to interrupt. :)

Funny thing is, we had a thunderstorm here this past friday and she no called/no showed. *shrugs* Hopefully she will call or something. I will definately keep everyone posted though.

Yeah, we did kinda make this train take a dirt road, didn't we?

Hopefully she'll letcha know what happened &/or call. That's the bummer about 14 year olds....They're at the mercy of a parent driving 'em.:)

[Marginal]

No, Marginal is highlighting that point in order to discredit DeLamar.J's point about ranks and standards.

Yah. I thought it was a strange double standard. .

[deadhand31]

Sparring a young student, hmm? Well, in our dojang, I've sparred with the junior black belts who range in age from 10-14. I even sparred a 12 year old Deputy Black today for his class (this is because at 12, the kid is already as tall as most adults, and no other kid wanted to spar him.) We allow adult-child sparring for several reasons:
1. It teaches kids humility. While they may be the top dogs while sparring other kids, they suddenly learn that they have alot more to learn.
2. It teaches the kids how to get in on an opponent who has a much longer reach than they do.
3. It gives the edge for the kids when they spar other kids in tournaments. If they are able to at least hold their ground against an adult, then any fear or apprehension they have going into a tournament soon diminishes.
4. It teaches the adults control. The only adults who spar kids are Deputy Black and up, so control isn't that hard to maintain. (Though I had a snafu and made a hole in the wall shaped like my instructor's son. that was very... bad.)

As for ettiquette, when addressing a higher rank in the adult classes, it's "Sir" or "Ma'am" for a higher rank. If an adult is helping in a kid's class, then the adult is addressed as "Sir" or "Ma'am". Black belts are able to call other black belts by their first name. At least that's how our school does it.

[DeLamar.J]

No, they appear to be the standards you want everyone else to abide by.

Personally, I don't give a rats pyjamas about what ranks or belts other people are given any more. It used to be something that bothered me, seeing people being awarded rank that I didn't feel they'd earned, or seeing people given the same or better rank than myself, when I knew I was a superior fighter, it used to make me feel de-valued.

But in reflection, it's a petty and small-minded way to think. I don't care what ranks other people have any more, and I encourage everyone else to stop focusing on who earns what belt (or not) and instead focus on their own training and skills.

In terms of rank, not everyone needs to be able to 'bang with the big boys' to be eligible for any kind of rank. I wouldn't expect the #1 bantam weight boxer to get in the ring with the #1 super heavyweight. But that doesn't de-value anyones rank. In fact, it doesn't mean anything at all.I understand what your saying, of course a bantam weight wouldnt do to great against a heavy wieght. I just think rank and titles are given out way to easy, and that just increases peoples pretentiousness . There are many many exeptions to the rule though. Ali was a great fighter, but just because maywether could not beat him, does not mean he isnt a great fighter, because he proves it everytime he fights.
All of these people handing out black belts to keep the money flowing are just 1.Making martial arts a joke, and 2. Making people think they are something when they are not. I cant count the ammount of times I have seen someone wearing a black belt acting like they are some top dogg, that couldnt even execute basic techniques properly, or most importantly, use them when it counts. If you cannot fight and show some pretty darn good skill while doing so, then you should not be called MASTER, or wear a black belt. A black belt means alot of things, but what it dont mean is not being able to fight. Say you have a pretty roundhouse and a great tripple spinning wheel kick, if you cant use those moves for what martial arts techniques are supposed to be used for, then what good are they? Some manuvers may be good cordination drills or warm ups, but people use fancy moves to make people believe that they are something they are not.

[terryl965]

I understand what your saying, of course a bantam weight wouldnt do to great against a heavy wieght. I just think rank and titles are given out way to easy, and that just increases peoples pretentiousness . There are many many exeptions to the rule though. Ali was a great fighter, but just because maywether could not beat him, does not mean he isnt a great fighter, because he proves it everytime he fights.
All of these people handing out black belts to keep the money flowing are just 1.Making martial arts a joke, and 2. Making people think they are something when they are not. I cant count the ammount of times I have seen someone wearing a black belt acting like they are some top dogg, that couldnt even execute basic techniques properly, or most importantly, use them when it counts. If you cannot fight and show some pretty darn good skill while doing so, then you should not be called MASTER, or wear a black belt. A black belt means alot of things, but what it dont mean is not being able to fight. Say you have a pretty roundhouse and a great tripple spinning wheel kick, if you cant use those moves for what martial arts techniques are supposed to be used for, then what good are they? Some manuvers may be good cordination drills or warm ups, but people use fancy moves to make people believe that they are something they are not.

Delamar.J this is one fine post and well thought out, but I have to dis agree that a BB must be able to fight, I believe a BB is more than just fighting it is a way of life and how you run your life for all to see. I have seen some very captiable Bb that have never been in a fight and they probaly could not fight for that very reason, one must be a fighter to be a fighter, but one must be a whole to be a true BB>
Terry

[DeLamar.J]

ADEPT/MARGINAL

I would also like to add that I do not feel that an old master should give up his rank, that was misunderstood completely. An old master has earned that rank from years of training and proving that what he or she does, is effective and not some joke.
I just feel that if you cannot at least make an effective display of martial art techniques while your fighting a worthy opponent, then you realy should not be given a black belt. If you have earned this rank in the past, and met the high standards that a black belt should be able to meet, and have became to old to do those things, then of course I dont think there rank should be taken. Thats insane.
However, I do feel that if you begin martial arts training at too old of an age, or you have phyisical limitations that keep you from performing as other do, then your rank should not go past a certain level. Some people have alot of heart, and that can be admirable, but if you cant meet the standards than you cant meet the standards. I dont feel that mercy rank should be given based on a persons dedication.
I realize this sounds quite harsh, but the rank means so much more when there is a standard that must be met with no exeptions. This increases the integrity of martial arts, the instructor, and the rank that people earn. Its kind of like special forces in the military, if everyone who showed heart and would give it there all were accepted regardless if the standard was met, THEN IT IS NOT SPECIAL ANYMORE. I see martial arts the same way.

[Marginal]

ADEPT/MARGINAL

I would also like to add that I do not feel that an old master should give up his rank, that was misunderstood completely.

I was pointing out that the distinction made no sense. I understood what you were saying. I also understood how deeply inconsistant the statement was.


An old master has earned that rank from years of training and proving that what he or she does, is effective and not some joke.

Except they can't do that anymore. Therefore, they cheapen the rank.


I just feel that if you cannot at least make an effective display of martial art techniques while your fighting a worthy opponent, then you realy should not be given a black belt.

Which is why old dudes that can no longer take a hit cannot qualify as BB's any more.


If you have earned this rank in the past, and met the high standards that a black belt should be able to meet, and have became to old to do those things, then of course I dont think there rank should be taken. Thats insane.

Why? Unsuitable is unsuitable. They have the same physical qualifications that the 60 year "old never gonna be, never should be" has.


However, I do feel that if you begin martial arts training at too old of an age, or you have phyisical limitations that keep you from performing as other do, then your rank should not go past a certain level.

Which is why rank should be revoked when that level becomes unmaintainable. Otherwise, the belt is horribly, and unendingly desecrated.


Its kind of like special forces in the military,

Well, except for the fact that it's not like that at all. It's not like the army recalls a 77 year old special forces alum back to active duty.


if everyone who showed heart and would give it there all were accepted regardless if the standard was met, THEN IT IS NOT SPECIAL ANYMORE. I see martial arts the same way.

Then why don't you want to to be really special? Why do you want your belt sullied by a host of can't do's?

[DeLamar.J]

I was pointing out that the distinction made no sense. I understood what you were saying. I also understood how deeply inconsistant the statement was.



Except they can't do that anymore. Therefore, they cheapen the rank.



Which is why old dudes that can no longer take a hit cannot qualify as BB's any more.



Why? Unsuitable is unsuitable. They have the same physical qualifications that the 60 year "old never gonna be, never should be" has.



Which is why rank should be revoked when that level becomes unmaintainable. Otherwise, the belt is horribly, and unendingly desecrated.



Well, except for the fact that it's not like that at all. It's not like the army recalls a 77 year old special forces alum back to active duty.



Then why don't you want to to be really special? Why do you want your belt sullied by a host of can't do's?Man, I can tell that we are just not going to see eye to eye on this. I guess we are beating a dead horse now. I think Im done.

[Marginal]

As I said in my first response, the rank is subjective. At its most basic level, it's just a book mark for the instructors you come across. Someone within your system sees a first dan, and they know what their general technique base is. It also is a book marker for the student. They know roughly how much time and experience they've put in relative to other students.

There are other subtle pressures like trying to measure up to your perceptions of a given rank, how you think you should appear to the lower belts, and how you should appear vs how you do in the eyes of the higher belts etc... But at its core, that's all a belt rank is. The rest is romanticising the rank, if not the journey.