The Point in Forms

[J-kid]

At the moment i am cross training at 2 gyms one teachs a form of Judo Jujitsu Wrestling/boxing the second teachs karate( which i just joined for to inprove my kicking. My question what the are Forms for they look funny and i dont see the need for them. I mean if it is for fighting what part. I would love to see someone try doing that to me ., can you say knock out for them , Give me your input thanks much.

Cya in a few years in UFC fights

[Kempojujutsu]

There are several threads in the karate forum. Maybe you should go there to find out. It sounds like you have been watching to much karate kid. The forms you mention ( called kata's in Okinawa karate) have alot of self defense techniques in them. Without knowing what type of "karate" it is hard to explain. Most of the TKD forms are just to teach basic techniques. Okinawa kata's and Chinese forms teach mostly self defense. These were used for solo training tools.
Bob:asian:

[fist of fury]

They can serve the same purpose as shadow boxing.

[Cthulhu]

I'll say this again:

If you can't see the benefit of forms, you've either never actually trained with them, or never trained with them correctly.

Cthulhu

[karatekid1975]

I agree, Cth. I love forms for the vast knowledge in them.

I have a question, Judo-kid. There isn't forms in Judo?

[Bob Hubbard]

Forms server many uses.
- coordination - in many cases they show you some of the logiclal progressions from 1 technique to another.
- shadow boxing - many forms are done with the idea that you are sparing an imaginary attacker(s).
- Basic traits - Kenpos short 1 is an example of this...its all blocks.

Theres a ton of good information you can pull from seing and doing forms. Its not -everything- but is 1 part of the options available to you in your training.

:asian:

[Dronak]

Yes, this does sound like something that was brought up somewhere else around here. I seem to recall seeing it before. Didn't someone else say that the forms are like a catalog of moves? They provide a simple way to teach and practice a variety of things. It's a way to preserve the moves of the art. No one ever said you have to do all of them in a fight or in the form's exact order. But they provide a vehicle for passing the art on to new students. As I understand it, and Kaith mentioned, they're also generally arranged to imitate a fight sequence. Every move in the form has its applications if you can see them, some are fairly obvious, some are more hidden and require some thought to figure out. Kaith's point about coordination and basic traits are good, too. I believe the tan tui routines we do serve a similar purpose although I don't have many details about them. They can be useful just for practicing the moves over and over. For example, the Yang tai chi form we're learning has the Peng, Lu, Ji, An (Ward off, Rollback, Press, Push) combination performed like 8 times in this long form. Why? Because they are a few of the most basic moves in the style and by repeating them so many times in the form, you get more practice at peforming them. It's certainly true as Kaith said that forms aren't everything in your training. However, they can be an important part of it. Cthulhu's probably right, too, that if you don't see the benefit of forms you haven't trained them (properly). As a beginner, I'm sure I don't see all the points in our forms, but I do see some of them and our teacher points out some of them. I would imagine that at this stage he's more interested in us learning the moves than worry too much about the point behind every single one. I suspect more about the point of the moves in the form will come later for us.

[Rob_Broad]

I think the Judo-Kid should do more reading here to see if there are any topics related to what he wants to know instead of just asking the questions straight out. I am not trying to be rude or mean but there are several threads on the value of forms.

[sweeper]

I would suggest asking your karate instructor.. if his answer isn't very good maybe it's time for a new karate instructor.

[Master of Blades]

Hes almost as bad as me :asian:

[J-kid]

Have you been in a fight with someone that kickboxed befor or another MA. If i were to punch at someone with horse stance the karate way i would get punched right in the face. without a good guard you will get hurt. If you dont believe me fight a boxer with karate and no kicks see how long you last

[Kempojujutsu]

I guest you having be taught what a horse stands is for. I am surprise since you do judo. Have you done a standing arm bar look at the stands you are in. from a grappling aspect when in the guard what are you doing, a modified verison of a horse stand.
Bob:asian:

[J-kid]

Thats not really horse stance at all

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

Have you been in a fight with someone that kickboxed befor or another MA. If i were to punch at someone with horse stance the karate way i would get punched right in the face. without a good guard you will get hurt. If you dont believe me fight a boxer with karate and no kicks see how long you last

Forms are forms- freestyle is freestyle - techniques are techniques and Isolation training is just that. Provided the person you are studying under is not a fake everything has a place. Should not be over emphasized or ignored. If you are competition oriented an art that focuses on self defense is not a wise choice for you. There are conflicting ideas...

[Kempojujutsu]

Bob:confused:

[J-kid]

Well since i have sparred 5-6 green belts or higher that just do tkd kempo etc they have bad punchs , first thing i do is run in close and box with them they get hit start moving back to try kicking and i rush in for the take down. Like i said if you dont wanna believe me on this one challeng a boxer to a boxing match and use your karate etc

GO for it just dont get mad at me when you get hurt

[sweeper]

karatekid1975 I don't think his judo coach teaches any forms, not sure if judo has forms or not though.

[Dronak]

You may be right, sweeper, I don't know. What I'm wondering is what Judo-kid's posted sparring experience has to do with the original question about usefulness of forms. I don't really see what it has to do with the original subject.

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

Well since i have sparred 5-6 green belts or higher that just do tkd kempo etc they have bad punchs , first thing i do is run in close and box with them they get hit start moving back to try kicking and i rush in for the take down. Like i said if you dont wanna believe me on this one challeng a boxer to a boxing match and use your karate etc

GO for it just dont get mad at me when you get hurt

Where at in WA do you train and who is your judo coach? Not olympic judo is it?

[J-kid]

Yeah it is why do you say that/

[J-kid]

O yeah and i am there offen so you can talk to me in real life about your veiws and check out what we do, I dont mind at all

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

Yeah it is why do you say that/


used to know the old man that was the coach... the bowing thing- I remember that from many years ago- He tried to get it removed from competitive judo. He didn't like the submission ideas behind the bow. where is the school at nowadays? not in bellvue anymore is it?

[J-kid]

His school is in renton

[Bob Hubbard]

Backtracking abit..... I believe any qualified instructor will agree that one does -not- fight from a horse stance, unless one is riding a horse. It is however used to help isolate movements and build attributes.

There is a difference between a training stance and a fighting stance.

Also, the likelyhood of you encountering an experienced martial artist in a street fight is very slim...the likelyhood of running into someone studying the same art as you slimmer too... unless one likes to pick fights in the parking lot after the tourniment. :D

[Klondike93]

The more I read the more I'm reminded of the saying
"can't see the forest for the trees".





:asian:

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

Well since i have sparred 5-6 green belts or higher that just do tkd kempo etc they have bad punchs , first thing i do is run in close and box with them they get hit start moving back to try kicking and i rush in for the take down. Like i said if you dont wanna believe me on this one challeng a boxer to a boxing match and use your karate etc

GO for it just dont get mad at me when you get hurt


So does sparring 5-6 people make you a seasoned fighter? And how old were they? Seeing as how you are 16, were they younger than you? What was there experience in MA, before you boxed them? And you know what my kenpo does work in the ring. It works against boxing-becuase we use boxing drills. It works against TKD pratitioners becuase we know how to counter. It works in ground fighting becuase we train in that too. What do you want to hear?
Your in Washington state right? Look up a school in WA. It is Aaction Kenpo, the instructors name is Gerald Mitchell. If you want to learn an effective street art, then he will help. If you are just looking for fights the local pub will do for you.

Michael

[karatekid1975]

sweeper wrote:

"karatekid1975 I don't think his judo coach teaches any forms, not sure if judo has forms or not though."

Thank you Sweeper. I'm glad you answered my question. Judo-kid didn't (bows gracefully :p ..... showing my RESPECT to sweeper ...... related to the bowing thing )

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

Well since i have sparred 5-6 green belts or higher that just do tkd kempo etc they have bad punchs , first thing i do is run in close and box with them they get hit start moving back to try kicking and i rush in for the take down. Like i said if you dont wanna believe me on this one challeng a boxer to a boxing match and use your karate etc

GO for it just dont get mad at me when you get hurt

Try that with someone who studies Wing Chun or EPAK.

[J-kid]

To answer the questions at hand yes the people i did fight where Green belt and higher in kUnG fu and TkD , and age is 16-21 . I am working on becoming a greater fighter. And sure i will come down and see what you do. how far away from kent is it thanks/

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

To answer the questions at hand yes the people i did fight where Green belt and higher in kUnG fu and TkD , and age is 16-21 . I am working on becoming a greater fighter. And sure i will come down and see what you do. how far away from kent is it thanks/

I am in Springfield Missouri, but in your profile it says WA state. One of our instructors has a school up there also. We have some awesome programs at our school. I think that you would actually find training there enjoyable, even if you were just coming once every few months.

Michael

[AvPKenpo]

The school is just east of Spokane.

Michael

[sweeper]

just east of spokan = idaho = other side of the state of washington..

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by AvPKenpo

The school is just east of Spokane.

Michael


:shrug: I guess I should have looked at a map. It is West of Spokane.......sorry.

Michael

[fissure]

Judo-kid, if you hope to stay around long enough to become a 'great fighter' as you put it, I suggest NOT running in on a fully trained martial artist.Teenage green belts are one thing, seasoned, experienced fighters are another.Use your new found confidence wisley, or it could get you into a place you are not ready to be in.Remember that many of the people here have trained far longer than you have been alive.Your perceptions of individual arts, as well as fighting concepts will almost certainly change as you grow in experience.Things that you now pass off as insignificant (such as forms) may become invaluable to you in the future ( beleive me I've been there)
As to the horse-riding stance: If you brake down almost any counter situation, where you shift from defensive to offensive motion, you will probably find that the transition stance is horse- riding (or at the least a variant such as the rooted or Sochin type stance).


Most of the TKD forms are just to teach basic techniques.
This tends to be true. I find that TKD forms take "longer" to use complex tech. than most other arts.I would say that most Karate 2nd /1st kyu forms, are on par with 2nd/3rd Dan TKD poomse.
Just one man's opinion:EG:

[J-kid]

I didnt know much about forms only that from time to time people tryed using forms agaist me i have seen. Wether it is good for training i have yet to see. BUT being open minded i will try it out.
Final Thoughts. True it seems like a teenager is mouthing off on things he might not under stand (points to himself) but sometimes asking the hard questions is the only way to get things done. I really cant say much about some forms or there point. perhaps condioning ) But i am glad that in a respectable manner many have given there input , (Future plans) I do plan on learning all powerful martial arts, and becoming a UFC fighter, The path ahead may be ruff but its one i chose to take,.

Wether or not i give you my adograph is yet to be seen . :D

[Shinzu]

forms = balance, coordination, focus, spirit, speed, relaxation, tension, concentration, endurance, and power.

some forms are the foundation of the art. never loose sight of your goal. there is always a lesson to be learned. instead of being judgemental, be open minded and humble.

[artful dodger]

Shinzu has clearly put time into patterns. People who see patterns as just a series of techniques that may be able to be applied to sparring or self defense, are missing out on a really amazing training tool. It takes a lot of repetitions of patterns/forms to even start to realise their true value, many of which Shinzu stated.

[Chiduce]

Judo Kid;
Forms are far more than just conditioning. They are your introduction to basic motion and it's dynamics. At first the forms just seem like repetition, because of your practicing them in their by the numbers phase of understanding. As you develop in your motion studies by practicing these forms, they will start to reveal to you, intermediate motion within this same movement, etc, etc, etc,. The more you practice the form, the more you begin to see that there are other movements, angles of application, and angles of motion within it. As in a previous post about ward-off, roll back, etc, forms reveal your true combative skills. Even a karate kata reveals this same motion analogy. Slow your kata down to the timing of a tai chi form. Execute each movement at this slow speed and examine angles of attack, distance to target, how blocks transform into strikes and how strikes transform into blocks. Examine how any kicking motion will develop and how the mind, and body's lower extremities coordinate to form the kicking motion. Kicking is just an extension of walking. You will find that each form and kata consists of an infinte number of progressive options for your exploration. This is what martial learning is all about. For it is always how you practice on your own which reveals how you learn in class. Also, ask you instructor about training in qi gong or chi kung to help improve your motion dynamics!
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by fissure

This tends to be true. I find that TKD forms take "longer" to use complex tech. than most other arts.I would say that most Karate 2nd /1st kyu forms, are on par with 2nd/3rd Dan TKD poomse.

Back in 1988ish, the Kuk Ki Won (sp?) changed all the forms of TKD thanks to an expose article in Black Belt magazine that demonstrated the incredible similarity between Shotokan forms and TKD forms of the time... Within a year, all TKD forms had been redone, recreated, rechoreographed...

Why do TKD forms take longer to use for complex techniques? Why do the forms of other MAs seem to be of higher quality in comparison? Maybe it is due to the longevity of some forms and their having been created as living documents of actual technique combinations that were used in real life, as opposed to a thrown together set of movements...? :confused:

Just a theory, but it seems to fit.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

[fissure]

Why do TKD forms take longer to use for complex techniques? Why do the forms of other MAs seem to be of higher quality in comparison? Maybe it is due to the longevity of some forms and their having been created as living documents of actual technique combinations that were used in real life, as opposed to a thrown together set of movements...?
My personal opinion is that they made the initial and intermediate form simple so that they would be easy to learn.I believe the goal was to make TKD the fastest growing MA around, to this end they succeded.TKD has out paced every other art over the last 20 yrs. or so.In the long term this process basically sucks.Some of the advanced poomse are strong, with the same kind of feel as Shotokan kata that I practice.I think in the long run the Kukkiwon's decision was bad.

[fissure]

Sorry to double post - dinner was ready!
I don't think that TKD forms where "thrown together" anymore so than Karate forms.Also I find it hard to beleive that say the Heian kata are really
living documents of actual technique combinations that were used in real life . They seem about as basic as the Taeguek forms, and are still very similar in base pattern.I'm just trying to answer your question, I don't want to get into a 'my kata are better than yours' debate.:asian:

[tonbo]

What kind of idiot uses forms as an actual attack?

Okay, I will be one of the first to raise my hand and say that I believe in the value of having forms. There is a LOT that they can teach you (I won't repeat all the things, since they have been discussed better and clearer than I could put them), but how to actually SPAR is not on the list, IMHO.

Anyone who fights you from a horse stance deserves every bit of the beating he gets. That's just plain stupid. Most of the people I have seen, from a number of different arts, use a modified fighting stance. You might use a "T" stance or more of a boxer/Muay Thai/Savate type "front" stance, but in almost all cases, you DON'T just face forward. That's insane, in my opinion.

Judo-Kid, not to be rude, but green belts don't spar anywhere NEAR how a true competitor is going to spar. For that matter, neither do beginning boxers. For most of the beginning to intermediate phase of learning *any* martial art, you are focusing more on the basics, and learning what does and doesn't work. Only when you hit the more advanced levels do you start to see not only what does and doesn't work, but *why* it does or doesn't work.

If you really want to get an edge on your competition, don't spar green belts. *Start* with sparring green belts, then spar all the brown and Black Belts that you can. Ask them to point out openings that they see; ask them to give you tips. Spar other styles, especially styles that are non-conventional (capoeira, for example). Spar grapplers, kickers, boxers, streetfighters--anyone that you can interact with. Another major point--spar people *older* than you are (not just someone in the 17-21 range). Some of the best tips I have received, I received from guys 10-20 years older than me. Trust me--their knowledge, when they give it to you, can be worth a LOT. When sparring any of these people, ask them to point out what openings and weaknesses they see. Get their input, and tell them what your goals are. Ask humbly for help, and ask if they will work with you. You would be surprised at what people will help you with, if you ask the right way.

If you are in a martial art that doesn't use forms, that's fine. If you don't know why other arts use forms, then ask--but ask politely. Relaying stories about why forms suck is not a good way to get the honest answer you are looking for.

Okay, I wandered off topic a bit here. I apologize. But the main thrust is that forms, like anything else in a martial art, have their place; more for some arts than others. If you really want to know why people use forms, go to other schools and strike up conversations with some of the senior students. Ask *them* the questions (and ask *politely*). During the conversation, again, tell them what you are doing and what your goals are--see if they can help you out. You never know......

--Rant mode off (again)--

Good luck!!

Peace--

[DKI Girl]

Originally posted by tonbo

What kind of idiot uses forms as an actual attack?

Anyone who fights you from a horse stance deserves every bit of the beating he gets. That's just plain stupid. Most of the people I have seen, from a number of different arts, use a modified fighting stance. You might use a "T" stance or more of a boxer/Muay Thai/Savate type "front" stance, but in almost all cases, you DON'T just face forward. That's insane, in my opinion.




Okay...I'll bite.....I will use my katas in an actual attack.....every time I practice that down "block" in my kata, I picture in my head.....punch into the stomach (soloplex), reach around their head, grab an ear or handful of hair, step back and make my turn, and break the neck.....

That's one of the many applications of a down "block" that I practice....I and pull it right out of my katas....every time.

Each technique out of the kata can represent many different applications......for example....horse stance.....think about when you are grappling on the ground and you are in the mount position.....isn't that similar to a horse stance....then take your hand movements from the kata and execute the technique from the ground.

Just some ideas.......

dki girl

[Master of Blades]

no offense, but I hope you are pretty awesome if you wanna be in UFC! Otherwise you are gonna be down and out before the bell rings. I think you underestimate the buissness and the skill needed!

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by tonbo


Anyone who fights you from a horse stance deserves every bit of the beating he gets.

I agree.
Stances are used to tranfer from one position to another not to stop and "pose".
I sparred someone that used a horse stance once............I kicked him right in the nuts. He learned a good lesson the hard way.
Ancient Chinese saying: "Good medicine taste bad"



Originally posted by tonbo

Judo-Kid, not to be rude, but green belts don't spar anywhere NEAR how a true competitor is going to spar. For that matter, neither do beginning boxers. For most of the beginning to intermediate phase of learning *any* martial art, you are focusing more on the basics, and learning what does and doesn't work. Only when you hit the more advanced levels do you start to see not only what does and doesn't work, but *why* it does or doesn't work.

Judo Kid,
Also not to be rude but taken it from someone that has trained about twice as long as you have been alive............you have a lot to learn.

I have seen white belts that could pound the crap out of black belts.
Rule #1: Belts don't mean d**k.




Originally posted by tonbo

If you really want to get an edge on your competition, don't spar green belts. *Start* with sparring green belts, then spar all the brown and Black Belts that you can. Ask them to point out openings that they see; ask them to give you tips. Spar other styles, especially styles that are non-conventional (capoeira, for example). Spar grapplers, kickers, boxers, streetfighters--anyone that you can interact with. Another major point--spar people *older* than you are (not just someone in the 17-21 range). Some of the best tips I have received, I received from guys 10-20 years older than me. Trust me--their knowledge, when they give it to you, can be worth a LOT. When sparring any of these people, ask them to point out what openings and weaknesses they see. Get their input, and tell them what your goals are. Ask humbly for help, and ask if they will work with you. You would be surprised at what people will help you with, if you ask the right way.


Excellent advice.
You wanna play Tarzan you better know what kind of animals live in the jungle first................learn as much as you can from everywhere.
I can't stress enough the importance of asking *politely* for advice because saying things like "forms are useless" to someone that *knows* what forms are for might get you one of 2 responses.
One might be a polite explanation followed by a demonstration.
Another might be they simply rip the guys head off and drop a big brown down the hole where his head used to be.

[sweeper]

for some reason that reminds me of an old computer game :-p

[YiLiJingLei]

Hi, Judo-Kid,
Is this the school where you train?

Judo-Boxing-Ju Jitsu-Wrestling Gym
355 Rainier N RENTON, WA 98055-1321
tel (425) 226-1655

Just curious, it would be interesting to see what's taught in classes at your school. If this is the wrong place, please let us know. It's been a long time since I was studying Judo.
Kind of a side note, but I remember my Judo teacher telling us Dr. Jigoro Kano (Judo's founder) taught Judo forms as part of the original cirriculum, but most've been forgotten, even in Japan. Obviously, the founder of your art thought forms have value, though they were likeley quite different than the Karate/TaeKwonDo forms you've witnessed. Perhaps something else for you to consider before jumping to wild conclusions.


:asian:

[sweeper]

if a form is usefull... how does it get lost?

[tonbo]

I can see your point, and I will agree that I will use parts of techniques out of either katas or techniques in sparring---*parts*, not whole techniques. And yes, a mount position is *similar* to horse stance, but horse stance is definitely NOT a fighting stance.

The point that I was trying to make was essentially that forms serve many good purposes, but that teaching whole sparring combinations wasn't actually one of them. Maybe other people are very different from me, but I don't find that I actually have the *time* to pull of a series of complex moves during sparring. My situation usually changes within seconds. If I am in the middle of a technique and my opponent changes up on me, I gotta think fast. I think it is easier to just "go with the flow" instead of trying to pull off a set technique.

I value forms, I just don't use them as much in my sparring. It's just the way I do things...;)

No offense, btw, intended or implied.

Peace--

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by fissure

I don't think that TKD forms where "thrown together" anymore so than Karate forms.

Perhaps "thrown together" is a bad phrase, but they were not assembled over a great period of time, that's for sure... One day they are done one way (the same as Shotokan, just with higher stances and kicks), and about a year later they are all significantly different...


And it hard to beleive that say the Heian kata are really "living documents of actual technique combinations that were used in real life." They seem about as basic as the Taeguek forms, and are still very similar in base pattern.[/B]

Why is that? Because extremely complex combinations don't jump right out at you? There are some very complex and advanced techniques contained in forms that are considered to be "basic." While there are forms that seem to have had a strong inclination toward the practice of basic techniques, there still are combinations of intermediate and advanced application contained therein...


...I don't want to get into a 'my kata are better than yours' debate.

Never went that way, not going to go that way... Not saying that there may not well be some very good techniques contained in the "new" TKD forms, just that they are, in point of fact, "new" in comparison to the forms they replaced.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

[fissure]

Indeed they are new.It seems to me that all forms where at one time or another 'new'. Since Shotokan keeps coming up (Trained in it for over 3 yrs - loved it!), are all of their kata ancient.I know some like bassai-dai are old, but are they all taken from other older arts?I've read that Itosu may have created the heian kata.If this is so then one day they did'nt exsist (other that in a mental 'library') and the next day they did. Even if he is not the creator of the forms - someone is.Some idividual used their experience to invision the pattern and movements.I don't see how this is different from Korean Masters using their experience to create seperate TKD poomse.

Also I find it hard to beleive that say the Heian kata are reallyquote: living documents of actual technique combinations that were used in real life

Why is that? Because extremely complex combinations don't jump right out at you? There are some very complex and advanced techniques contained in forms that are considered to be "basic."
No.I'm refering to say - the 3 high blocks performed in sucssesion.I just can't imagine an actuall conflict where this happened.I'm not saying there are not useful movements to be found, even combination of several tech.And I understand about reverse engineering and such,the chamber of a down block could BE the block and the rest of the motion could be any of half a dozen things depending on who you talk too.Rember I was defending forms practice here!At this point in my MA life, forms practice and study is becoming more and more interesting to me.
Even with the change of forms by the WTF, you can still see the influences.Pyong won still looks like the Tekki katas!I think they should have left well enough alone, and addmitted than TKD was basically Shotokan.If they wanted their 'own' forms they should have just added them to the exsisting ones.
Many schools still practice the older forms in addition to the new WTF ones.We still use Bassai and Lo hai (ro hai - I think Meikyo is Shotokan version?) and Sip su (not sure about the origins of this one!).Anyway I'm starting to ramble.....:EG:

[tshadowchaser]

There have been some excellent posts in this thread.
Much of what we learn in the Martial Arts is not always obvious to the outside world. Nonmartial arts people see us as learning only how to kick punch, throw and make people submit. What they don't realise is that hundred no thousands of hours go into getting a technique correct and learning what its is really all about and how to preform it correctly without the need to think about it.
A form , as has been stated by many, instructs one in the proper movement of the body when doing a movement. Learning what that movement is all about is a journey in and of itslef.
Lessons in life are much like forms. Even the most simple things we do are the foundation of the complex. If learning a form is no more than learning to do what is asked of you without crying and complaining it is a lesson that can be carried over into your daily life. When you go a little further and put forth effort into the form and make/do it the best you can, trying to always improve, that lesson also will start to carry over into your everyday life.
Shadow

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by tonbo

What kind of idiot uses forms as an actual attack?

Okay, I will be one of the first to raise my hand and say that I believe in the value of having forms. There is a LOT that they can teach you (I won't repeat all the things, since they have been discussed better and clearer than I could put them), but how to actually SPAR is not on the list, IMHO.

Anyone who fights you from a horse stance deserves every bit of the beating he gets. That's just plain stupid. Most of the people I have seen, from a number of different arts, use a modified fighting stance. You might use a "T" stance or more of a boxer/Muay Thai/Savate type "front" stance, but in almost all cases, you DON'T just face forward. That's insane, in my opinion.

Judo-Kid, not to be rude, but green belts don't spar anywhere NEAR how a true competitor is going to spar. For that matter, neither do beginning boxers. For most of the beginning to intermediate phase of learning *any* martial art, you are focusing more on the basics, and learning what does and doesn't work. Only when you hit the more advanced levels do you start to see not only what does and doesn't work, but *why* it does or doesn't work.

If you really want to get an edge on your competition, don't spar green belts. *Start* with sparring green belts, then spar all the brown and Black Belts that you can. Ask them to point out openings that they see; ask them to give you tips. Spar other styles, especially styles that are non-conventional (capoeira, for example). Spar grapplers, kickers, boxers, streetfighters--anyone that you can interact with. Another major point--spar people *older* than you are (not just someone in the 17-21 range). Some of the best tips I have received, I received from guys 10-20 years older than me. Trust me--their knowledge, when they give it to you, can be worth a LOT. When sparring any of these people, ask them to point out what openings and weaknesses they see. Get their input, and tell them what your goals are. Ask humbly for help, and ask if they will work with you. You would be surprised at what people will help you with, if you ask the right way.

If you are in a martial art that doesn't use forms, that's fine. If you don't know why other arts use forms, then ask--but ask politely. Relaying stories about why forms suck is not a good way to get the honest answer you are looking for.

Okay, I wandered off topic a bit here. I apologize. But the main thrust is that forms, like anything else in a martial art, have their place; more for some arts than others. If you really want to know why people use forms, go to other schools and strike up conversations with some of the senior students. Ask *them* the questions (and ask *politely*). During the conversation, again, tell them what you are doing and what your goals are--see if they can help you out. You never know......

--Rant mode off (again)--

Good luck!!

Peace-- Tonbo, you make a very good point here about forms in fighting. Yet, their are fighting forms or specifically "Fighting Jin" patterns used in qi gong for actual violent confrontation. Like many other martial art teachers, i have developed a short form for women to use in practice as well as actual street combat. This is also a qi gong form. It's name is Poision Fan. The beginner will use it for strenthening the arms, hands, fingers, shoulders, tendons, muscles, and legs. As the beginner develops into the intermediate level practitioner, she can then start to use segments of the form in actual confrontation. When she gets the advanced level down, then the complete form and it's variations can be used as a close quarter's self-defense style within the original system she is learning. The men in the class can also use the form as a self defense tool for their over-all martial street defensive development. They will specifically use it as a teaching tool. Poision Fan consists of Dragon Crape checks; Eagle's Talon Clawing, Right and Left Fanning, Double Fanning, Double Palm Pushing, Right and Left Pushing, And The Transforming Fans!
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[tonbo]

I'll buy that. I don't deny that parts of forms get used in actual sparring or combat. I just find it hard to believe that someone would actually be able to pull off a full technique that consists of more than a couple of moves.

Then again, I ain't all that experienced, IMHO...;)

For example: a very simple technique that I know is as follows, against a right punch: From a right guarding stance, right inward block to opponent's punch. Follow with a right back knuckle to the temple, then a right back knuckle to the solar plexus. Right elbow smash to the left pin of the jaw, followed by a right outward shuto to opponent's right side of neck. End with a right inward shuto to the opponent's left side of the neck.

Okay, please understand, this is a VERY basic technique, and I have left out checks, use of the left hand, and other "cool" bits--just put in the very bare bones.

Now, even if I change the targeting of the elbow to hit the chest (to be more "legal" in sparring), I *still* can't pull this whole technique off. Usually, I get about half of it before all bets are off (before my opponent either hits me or gets too close to hitting me).

Maybe I don't think or move fast enough, I don't know. However, I have been told before that my situation is fairly typical. I have also been told not to rely on being able to get off whole techniques, whether from forms or not--stick to the simple moves, put together in short, simple sets. For me, flowing and doing the old "stick and move" works much better than pulling in sets from a form or whole techniques.

I won't deny that there are some forms more geared toward combat. Makes sense. However, I will stick to the belief that "forms is forms and sparring is sparring"; forms, like techniques, were created for "ideal" situations. I have yet to have an opponent hit me or attempt to hit me in an "ideal" situation. There is usually more going on....;)

Anyway, not to argue with you. If you or your students pull off techniques, or if anyone else does, hey....more power to you. My opinions are my own, based on my experience. If I am wrong, so be it (I know I need to train more, anyway--always will!).

Thanks for the reply!!

Peace--

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by tonbo

I'll buy that. I don't deny that parts of forms get used in actual sparring or combat. I just find it hard to believe that someone would actually be able to pull off a full technique that consists of more than a couple of moves.

Real fights usually don't last longer than "a couple of moves."


For example: a very simple technique that I know is as follows, against a right punch: From a right guarding stance, right inward block to opponent's punch. Follow with a right back knuckle to the temple, then a right back knuckle to the solar plexus. Right elbow smash to the left pin of the jaw, followed by a right outward shuto to opponent's right side of neck. End with a right inward shuto to the opponent's left side of the neck.

Why is everything done with the right hand? A backfist strike to the solar plexus? :confused: That technique is unsuitable for such a target - there is simply too little penetration possible. Also, do you assume that the opponent is going to stand still and allow all these strikes to happen, or that after one or two strikes there will have been no effect that causes his posture to change? After the elbow strike, I would think he would have moved a bit, hopefully toward sucking floor... Two knifehand strikes with the same hand to both sides of the neck? No need... if one is done properly, there is no need for both...


Okay, please understand, this is a VERY basic technique, and I have left out checks, use of the left hand, and other "cool" bits--just put in the very bare bones.

If this is a basic form technique used in your school, it is no wonder why people have difficulty understanding how forms translate to a real fight... The number of techniques used, the targets they are aimed at, and the way they are being used all make me think that whoever put that series together (and I admit that you stated that you did not include everything in your example - I am responding only to what you shared with us) wasn't thinking too clearly... And if those techniques are being explained as all applying to the same opponent, they are being taught improperly...


Now, even if I change the targeting of the elbow to hit the chest (to be more "legal" in sparring), I *still* can't pull this whole technique off. Usually, I get about half of it before all bets are off (before my opponent either hits me or gets too close to hitting me).

And the ugly reality of thinking sparring equals fighting rears its head... The reason the series of techniques is difficult if not impossible to use in sparring is that the strikes in forms (at least the forms I know of and practice) are intended to be debilitating ones - some strikes are set ups, some are not strikes at all... But ultimately the result is the incapacitation of the opponent, and in sparring you simply aren't allowed to do what needs to be done to put the opponent through the floor.


Maybe I don't think or move fast enough, I don't know. However, I have been told before that my situation is fairly typical.

Typical for who(m)? I will say that the number of schools that could translate forms into applicable techniques that I have been associated with is a very small number... Honestly, I can count them on one hand. :(


I have also been told not to rely on being able to get off whole techniques, whether from forms or not--stick to the simple moves, put together in short, simple sets. For me, flowing and doing the old "stick and move" works much better than pulling in sets from a form or whole techniques.

If you are being "told" that, then I suspect you are being "taught" that...

In one of the first forms taught in Yiliquan, Di Yi Guan Nien, the series is as follows:

Opponent attacks with right punch.

Facing opponent, step to the inside of his punch with left inside block, following with left spear hand to the neck (vital point strike to slow him down), right punch to the solar plexus (can also be a grab, and in one variant break down it must be), kick with the right leg past the opponent to pull the kicking leg back through the opponent's knee to push him down...

Straight from the form, straight to application, works like nobody's business...


I won't deny that there are some forms more geared toward combat. Makes sense.

Admittedly, some forms do seem geared more toward practicing basic techniques than others... I was receiving some instruction on that very topic last week from RyuShiKan regarding some Okinawan forms, and was given a demonstration of where the form in question got all of its sections...


However, I will stick to the belief that "forms is forms and sparring is sparring"; forms, like techniques, were created for "ideal" situations. I have yet to have an opponent hit me or attempt to hit me in an "ideal" situation. There is usually more going on....;)

"Forms are forms," and "sparring is sparring" only in schools who are unable to translate their forms into real techniques. I would recommend training with any Yiliquan people, Isshin-ryu under Sherman Harrill (in Iowa), or RyuTe Karate anywhere if you want to see how forms translate into real techniques that work no matter what...


Anyway, not to argue with you. If you or your students pull off techniques, or if anyone else does, hey....more power to you. My opinions are my own, based on my experience. If I am wrong, so be it (I know I need to train more, anyway--always will!).

And we all need to train more... Good post!

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

[Master of Blades]

This is of no use to this particular post, but may I say that this place has some of the best "discussions" I've ever seen and theres obviously a lot of diverse views. It makes a change from the "what if" questions I get when my freinds to try to argue Martial Arts. Anyway..........carry on :asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Just a couple of basic ground rules on kata and training in general.

1) Don't blame the art for something you yourself can't/don't understand at this point in your training. Either you didn't learn something correctly or you weren't taught it correctly........or both. It's never the art's fault only your own.

2) Sparring is not real fighting, it's only practice so you can work on speed, power, timing, distance, balance and so on.

3) A fight should never last more than a few seconds.


4) Real techniques work on anyone regardless of size.

5) The only difference between fights long ago and now is that more people have access to guns now than say 150 years ago. So saying this or that better prepares you for a modern fight is crap. People punch and kick just like they always have.

6) There are more law suits resulting from people being invloved in fights now than ever before.............think about that.

7) The Okinawan masters that developed kata were not stupid people. They were in fact more serious about their art than todays practioners since they had to use their art to protect themselves or someone else and not to win trophies or make the cover of a MA magazine. Kata has meaning........if you haven't found someone good enough to explain it and show it then perhaps you need to look further and deeper.

8) A popular saying is "all fights end up on the ground", this is not true. The only person that should end up on the ground is the loser. If you are both rolling around on the ground there is nothing stopping his friends from coming up and kicking your teeth in while you are tied up trying your latest strangle hold.

[chufeng]

RyuShiKan,

Nice post...I concur...

The part about thinking that all fights go to ground was right on the mark...most fights DO go to ground, because the defending combatant doesn't know HOW to prevent it.

I train with a guy who actually has some training in a version of Oyata's Karate (I'll get the name of the instructor for you)...he is also trained in Brazilian JuJitsu and Arnis...He has developed some bad habits from arnis and relies too much on his ability to fight on the ground...so, his stand-up game is weak.

I sparred with him about four months ago...mind you I recently had a big bone whack on one leg and have been unable to really train hard...at any rate, after being totally ineffective at trying to bring me to the ground, he had the nerve to call me a tar baby...can you imagine??? Bottom line...I didn't attack once, but completely neutralized his attacks each and every time...of course there were plenty of opportunities to attack, but that was not the lesson I was trying to share with him that day...I wanted to show him that relying on one skill alone will NOT help in all situations...

He got the point and was totally spent...I was not at all tired (and since I haven't been able to run a lot, I am NOT in the best of shape)...

Anyways, just an anecdotal account that confirms your contention that NOT all fights go to ground.

One good punch/strike is really all it should take for a trained martial artist...but we do train to strike in 3s in YiLi, just for the added insurance.

:asian:
chufeng

[Shinzu]

i have never used any form as a means of sparring, but there are (in my art) certain drill sequences for the first 5 phyung forms.

they require both blocking and striking techniques. i feel this is very benificial in learning the actual application the form is teaching.

when i learn a new form, i ask why, what, and how it is being applied. my instructor is very knowledgeable about these things.

besides... if you don't know what you're doing you shouldn't be teaching or learning it.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng


I train with a guy who actually has some training in a version of Oyata's Karate (I'll get the name of the instructor for you)..

I would appreciate that. If he is claming it is a "version" I am a little skeptical of how long, if at all, he trained with Mr. Oyata. There are a few people lately using my teachers name that have no real business doing so. Going to a couple of seminars doesn't qualify one as a student of someones. Most people that join Mr. Oyata's Assoc. and get to a level where they start getting some real skill don't usually quite.

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by tonbo

I'll buy that. I don't deny that parts of forms get used in actual sparring or combat. I just find it hard to believe that someone would actually be able to pull off a full technique that consists of more than a couple of moves.

Then again, I ain't all that experienced, IMHO...;)

For example: a very simple technique that I know is as follows, against a right punch: From a right guarding stance, right inward block to opponent's punch. Follow with a right back knuckle to the temple, then a right back knuckle to the solar plexus. Right elbow smash to the left pin of the jaw, followed by a right outward shuto to opponent's right side of neck. End with a right inward shuto to the opponent's left side of the neck.

Okay, please understand, this is a VERY basic technique, and I have left out checks, use of the left hand, and other "cool" bits--just put in the very bare bones.

Now, even if I change the targeting of the elbow to hit the chest (to be more "legal" in sparring), I *still* can't pull this whole technique off. Usually, I get about half of it before all bets are off (before my opponent either hits me or gets too close to hitting me).

Maybe I don't think or move fast enough, I don't know. However, I have been told before that my situation is fairly typical. I have also been told not to rely on being able to get off whole techniques, whether from forms or not--stick to the simple moves, put together in short, simple sets. For me, flowing and doing the old "stick and move" works much better than pulling in sets from a form or whole techniques.

I won't deny that there are some forms more geared toward combat. Makes sense. However, I will stick to the belief that "forms is forms and sparring is sparring"; forms, like techniques, were created for "ideal" situations. I have yet to have an opponent hit me or attempt to hit me in an "ideal" situation. There is usually more going on....;)

Anyway, not to argue with you. If you or your students pull off techniques, or if anyone else does, hey....more power to you. My opinions are my own, based on my experience. If I am wrong, so be it (I know I need to train more, anyway--always will!).

Thanks for the reply!!

Peace-- That was a pretty devastating technique for the defense against a right punch. It reminds me of our orange VII defense against the same punch. I agree with you about having not to use the complete technique in either sparring or actual street confrontation. Yet, depending on the level of martial skill with which the stylist has will probably determine which set of moves he/she will use as the go ahead motion to end the confrontation. In sparring it would just expose the level of contact and degree of physical exertion, where martial abilities would be more prevailent even though skill would be a factor. Thus, in sparring in different situations it would be putting together the winning sets of motion. In the streets or any potentially fatal situation it would be through yielding and adaptation; the putting together of life saving finishes (once the intial contact is made), (through one's martial level of skill) to fail the violent life threatening and fatally damaging attack.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

[tonbo]

Wooo.....where to begin?

Okay, first of all, the technique that I described is an orange belt technique. By the time you learn this technique, you have been in the art for about, oh, 6-8 months. Essentially, you are still getting basics down. In a more advanced version, the second back knuckle actually strikes more in a downward "rolling" motion from the opponent's right lower ribs, heading down toward the dantien/bladder. As they double over or bend inward, you pop them back up with the right elbow. When they go back up, you wrap the outward shuto into their neck, aiming to do damage to the collarbone junction there, driving them downward again. Use your left hand to "check" their head to your left, exposing the other side of the neck for a similar inward strike. During this whole exercise, the left hand is being used for checks and "slaps", helping to position or brace the opponent into position for some of the strikes. You are also using your knees to keep contact with their lower body, so that you are in fairly close. No, the opponent will NOT "stand still" during the technique, and will move quite a bit--the advanced technique compensates for this by having you "ride" the body with the strikes and checks, positioning the opponent for each following strike. Blah, blah, blah. (Sorry, I don't want to rant on TOO much!!)

Anyway, you get the idea. Yeah, fights usually don't, and shouldn't last more than a "few moves". My point exactly. Most often, sets in forms are not quick or simple. They are designed to teach methods of motion, or what kinds of strikes logically follow others. IMHO, they are designed to get people to *think*, not just try to pull off techniques by rote.

Your example is something I would consider an exception. In the form you presented, that is something like 3 moves (depending on what you qualify as seperate moves). Quick and simple, and logically flows. Most form sets that I have had contact with are more like 5 or 6 moves. Again, you see how things work, and you adapt from there.

I totally agree that you can't spar like you would fight. There is no way to do that, short of gladitorial combat allowing maiming and death. You are very right there. However, I would disagree about the translation of forms into applicable techniques. My opinion (and this is my opinion, not gospel of ANY kind!!) is that you learn forms and techniques to give you the skills you need to truly defend yourself, but not necessarily tools for all occasions. A rough analogy is taking literature/writing classes. You may READ all the Tolstoy, Confucious, Dickens, etc. that is out there, but you won't necessarily *write* like them. You will develop what works for *you*. Your art gives you the forms and techniques so that you see how things work, and, when called upon to use them "in real life", you will be able to let your body (and training!!) take over. I still think that, given an actual situation, people will just MOVE, they won't think, "Oh, yeah...what was that technique against a right punch again?". That's my point--you learn techniques as tools, not *necessarily* something that you will use "verbatim" in a situation.

Anyway, I agree with quite a bit of what you have said, and I may be just rambling around here. I appreciate your pointing out that I had made a pretty broad generalization (and probably did it again at least once in this post!) about techniques and schools. I can only go off of my own experience, limited as it is. I do know that there are schools out there that teach short, quick, easily applicable techniques for situations. THOSE (much like your example) I can see being used directly from forms--2 to 3 moves is something most people can remember and use. Much more than that, they might have (might!) a problem.

Anyway, again, just my 2 yen. Your opinion and comments are well said and very appreciated.

:asian:

Peace--

[fissure]

Tonbo:
Most often, sets in forms are not quick or simple. They are designed to teach methods of motion, or what kinds of strikes logically follow others. IMHO, they are designed to get people to *think*, not just try to pull off techniques by rote.
I think you have a similar outlook on forms as me, if not I will apologise in advance!
I think forms are of great importance and contain many excelent tech., and combos. of tech. some of which are obvious - others take a little digging.
The aspect I have a problem with is taking an entire kata as a 'blue print' for a real fight that accually happened against multiple opponents.
I just try to imagine me and 3 or 4 evil henchmen attacking a peacefull Karate Master.I'm fairly sure we would 'bum rush' him all at once, not attack one at a time only to see each other destroyed while the rest of us wait our tern.
IMO segments of kata can be effective combat sequences.I believe that kata creators took many of these sequences and blended them together, resulting in the forms we have today.
I will now hide in the corner and await the on-slaught
:D

[sweeper]

5 on 1? My bet is that master runs for the nearest weapon and attempts to stack as many of you as poasable..

[fissure]

5 on 1? My bet is that master runs for the nearest weapon and attempts to stack as many of you as poasable..
What would be your estimation as to the average number of imaginary attackers in an advanced Dan level form?

[Shinzu]

some of our dan forms use 4 imaginary opponents. i feel that is a good number, but maybe a bit unrealistic at times.

[sweeper]

I don't know ;) I'm not the one that suggested the situation.

[Dronak]

Originally posted by fissure

I just try to imagine me and 3 or 4 evil henchmen attacking a peacefull Karate Master.I'm fairly sure we would 'bum rush' him all at once, not attack one at a time only to see each other destroyed while the rest of us wait our tern.

Not like I know, but I thought there was some logic behind not doing that in a fight -- if too many people attack at once, they'll end up just getting in each other's way. I thought that was why you normally don't see any more than two people attacking one person at once.

As for how many attackers are imagined in forms, I have no idea. All I can say is that for one of our basic forms when I tried to picture how I'd be attacked to use these combinations, I decided that there had to be more than one person attacking. Not sure how many, but some of the moves didn't seem to make any sense if there weren't at least two attackers. E.g., a strike forward followed by a strike backward -- what happened, the one attacker got hit, then ran around behind you to try to hit you from behind? Somehow I don't think so.

[fissure]

I just try to imagine me and 3 or 4 evil henchmen attacking a peacefull Karate Master shinzu - Me plus 3 puts me at your number.
Sweeper:

I don't know ;) I'm not the one that suggested the situation
Do you beleive that there are not multiple attackers implied in kata?If not what is your take on what is happening?Honestly, I want to know you take on this.
Dronak, many of our forms also have attacks/defences in two directions , dealing with multipule opponents at the same time.

I feel as though the last several post are mearly trying to poke holes in my comments, without bothering to answer or give different oppinions as to my main line of thought.
That is:

I think forms are of great importance and contain many excelent tech., and combos. of tech. some of which are obvious - others take a little digging.

The aspect I have a problem with is taking an entire kata as a 'blue print' for a real fight that accually happened against multiple opponents
The last in particular intersests me. Do you get the impression that entire kata could be the record of a 'battle plan' that was at some point carried out.Or do you feel that there are many effective 'groupings' of combat tech. 'mashed' together for the sake of practice?
I have given one line of thought about this. I know its fun to mearly take a word or sentance and then pick it apart.But if you have another concept for the real life use of the total kata, let me hear it.My oppinion of many things in MA has changed or at least been modified over the last couple of decades, give me your thoughts- maybe this could be another.:asian:

[Rich Parsons]

Hi All,

Yes I do forms and I see the purpose of them, but it is not the 'most' enjoyable part of the art for me.

As for the, multiple attacker theme, have 3 to 5 guys who know how to attack together. What I am about to describe occurred while I was bouncing one evening.

6 guys causing problems and one took a swing at a young lady. I stopped it from happening. Things persuade from there and four made their move, while two waited for their turn. Two of the four each charged and grabbed an arm and tried to raise my jacket up over my head, the third of the four came around behind to attack my hips and legs, basically keeping me immobile. Or that was their attempt. The fourths plan was to punch me in the face while his friends held me. Needless to say with some blind luck, keeping my head just enough and two friendly people who picked up the two stragglers, I was able to kick and punch elbow and knee and roll on the floor with the four of them. Note: I did take my share of the same, and once we were rolling yes the four got in each others way, but they all knew their positions and keep trying to return to them when we would stand back up.

So practicing for multiple attackers no matter how it is, is a good idea in my mind.

Have a nice day everyone.

Rich
:asian:

[fissure]

Maybe I'm not asking my question in the right way, let me try this:
Rich Parsons -
I was able to kick and punch elbow and knee and roll on the floor with the four of them.
Lets transport you back in time and make you a founding farther of some MA.You have this same experience.You want to find a method of passing down your combat experience, you come up with forms.(good idead by the way!)
Do the forms you create each consist of movements and tech. that occured in one confrontation.Such that every form is a representation of a complete and seperate combat situation unto itself.Or are the situations from several instances strung together to form a convenient format to train these seperate combos?
My opinion is the later, I'm just want to know what other experienced people here think.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by fissure

Maybe I'm not asking my question in the right way, let me try this:
Rich Parsons -
Lets transport you back in time and make you a founding farther of some MA.You have this same experience.You want to find a method of passing down your combat experience, you come up with forms.(good idead by the way!)
Do the forms you create each consist of movements and tech. that occured in one confrontation.Such that every form is a representation of a complete and seperate combat situation unto itself.Or are the situations from several instances strung together to form a convenient format to train these seperate combos?
My opinion is the later, I'm just want to know what other experienced people here think.

Fissure,

My apologies for not getting the point.

Me personally, I think if the experience was a good experience, I would use that. If the experience was too short to be able to form a kata of length then I think stringing them together would be a great idea.

Now, here is what is in my forms/kata/dances, that almost all the techniques have different applications with slightly different moves and techniques. Talk about confusing for beginners.

I am not sure if I answered you question, in the manner you wanted.

Rich

[sweeper]

Sweeper:
quote: I don't know I'm not the one that suggested the situation

Do you beleive that there are not multiple attackers implied in kata?If not what is your take on what is happening?Honestly, I want to know you take on this.
Dronak, many of our forms also have attacks/defences in two directions , dealing with multipule opponents at the same time.


Well I don't exactly have loads of experience with forms but from what little I know of it I would say that rarely does it look like you would be fighting multiple attackers directly, rather you are fighting multiple attackers implicitly. For example, say you throw an attack one way than turn around to fire off another attack than turn 1/4 to fire a thired, that doesn't mean you are fighting 3 people, that "could" just mean you practiced a half turn and a quarter turn with two techniques so if you ever were forced to attack a flanking opponant than you would have some practice, but genneraly I don't think forms would have you in the middle of a gang of fighters simultaniously gighting in multiple directions, that could be an aplication but I don't think it would be a goal, not being a goal and assumming a practitioner attempted to avoid such a situation or get out of it asap than the majority of times you fight multiple attackers your situation would be diffrent. In other words it could be that you are in the center of multiple attackers but in my view it is much more likely that such attacks are modular, they are there with intent to be transposd to many other situations.

As to my post.. I was trying to point out that you probably wouldn't simply stand and fight off an attack by multiple attackers, you would do everything to gain an advantage and you would want to minimise other's effectiveness by moving around to minimise contact with them.

and Dronak, when you have multiple people attacking one person it doesn't mean everyone trys to get a punch in, it's more like they circle the person, one guy attacks as a distractions wial others move in to grapple him/her.

[fissure]

it could be that you are in the center of multiple attackers but in my view it is much more likely that such attacks are modular, they are there with intent to be transposd to many other situations.
So after all the back and forth, you basically have the same opinion as me. Namley Kata hold many interprative combat sequences, and are not huge battle plans to be carried out in specific order against an army of assailants.

[sweeper]

basicly yes, I find it much less efficient to attempt to give a "battle plan" for every situation and in all likely hood if someone had attempted that I think it would be imposable to give it all to a student leaving the next generation with many holes in their system, I find it much more likly that even if a kata were to be modeled after a real fight that happened somewhere, it is intended to be more versatile than simply a coregraphed battle plan. Further more it seems that in the past efficiencie in training was just about as important as it is now for alot of martial artists, (especialy considering the age of most common martial arts you find today) so it would follow that someone would attempt to transfer information as concisely as posable.