In the locked Nahanchi Thread, I seen a lot of animosity about the differences between TCM and rhe Dillman method. I want to know what differentiates the two so much.

I know withthe Dillman method he took alesson from Ed Parker and categorized nd organized everything. Does TCM do this.

I have heard a lot of half-assed remark about the Dillman method, and how it is ineffective, I want to see so arguements stating why this is so, so just, i study this style and this is how it shoudl be.

I would love to see some intelligent conversation on this thread, not a mudlsinging campaign. Whatevr you have to say, I would like to see it backed up.

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

In the locked Nahanchi Thread, I seen a lot of animosity about the differences between TCM and rhe Dillman method. I want to know what differentiates the two so much.

I would like to know what makes Dillman people think they are the same thing......

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

I know withthe Dillman method he took alesson from Ed Parker and categorized nd organized everything. Does TCM do this.

Uhhhh sorry to ask but do you know what TCM is?


Originally posted by Rob_Broad

I have heard a lot of half-assed remark about the Dillman method, and how it is ineffective, I want to see so arguements stating why this is so, so just, i study this style and this is how it shoudl be.


Which "half assed remarks" would those be?

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

I would love to see some intelligent conversation on this thread, not a mudlsinging campaign. Whatevr you have to say, I would like to see it backed up.

Sounds good.


PS. From the tone and language choice of your post I can't help but think you are wanting some kind of flame war. (i.e. "half-assed", etc.)


If you think the Dillman Method is good, OK by me, keep at it.

My understanding is that while TCM is the theory that underlies several kyusho/dim mak systems it isn't in and of itself martially oriented. The Dillman method and other methods rely on it but it isn't a literal application of TCM.

If anything I'd say--based on my observations but not much experience unfortunately--that the DKI techniques draw from the TCM theory to make their kyusho applications. I have heard Mr. Dillman speak of the importance of striking different points at different times of the day for maximum benefit bsed on TCM principles, for example, though if I recall correctly he doesn't advocate worrying much about this in a fight. Some of his high-ranking students have become acupuncturists because of their desire to learn more, I know (e.g. Ed Lake if memory serves).

Let me preface by saying that I do not now train in DKI methods, nor have I ever trained in DKI methods. I have been trained in Chinese vital point striking methods, the particular method of which does not make significant distinction between the nature of a point - simply, there are points of various natures to be struck (i.e. bone, blood, nerve, muscle, combination (i.e. blood/bone, muscle/nerve), "forbidden" or acupuncture points), and they are struck in certain ways. They are referred to by their names, not by meridian location (i.e. ST-6, TH-13, etc.), though if a point had a meridian location associated with it, it would be noted in its training.

Originally posted by arnisador

My understanding is that while TCM is the theory that underlies several kyusho/dim mak systems it isn't in and of itself martially oriented.

No more so than TWM.

It is important to note here what TCM is and is not.

Traditional Chinese Medicine is an approach to holistic health management that is based primarily on several abstract theories that relate in allegorical (as opposed to literal) ways to the functions of the human body and its environment. Theories such as the Mother/Son Law and the Law of the Five Elements, the Zang-Fu organ relationships, and the paths of the jing luo acupuncture meridians prevail over physical, mechanical descriptions of the body's workings. TCM holds herbology (a pre-pharmaceutical method of treatment), massage, acupuncture, bone adjustment and diet to be of vital importance in maintaining the body's internal environment in order to avoid its invasion by "outside evils," external pathogens that will set up conditions that allow disease to develop.

TCM by itself has nearly nothing to do with martial arts, other than fixing what we screw up...

The Dillman method and other methods rely on it but it isn't a literal application of TCM.

The Dillman method appears to rely on it, but I believe that is the quandary at hand... As for being a literal application of TCM, that remains to be seen...

TCM, in terms of the use of acupuncture points for martial application, is a touchy subject. The ability to first identify at full combat speed a target often no larger than a US quarter, then to strike it in a manner that causes instant debilitation of the attacker, is often debated. The ability of an individual to manually stimulate an imaginary point on the body that has no corresponding physical machinery by which to effect the hoped for result of the strike further stirs debate beyond polite levels...

Then there is the issue of what defines kyusho and simple atemi strikes... Kyusho appears to refer exclusively to the striking of acupuncture points for combat use, at least in the Dillman method, though it is my understanding that kyusho relate rather to points that cause immediate lethal damage. Atemi appears to relate to "regular" striking targets, but again my understanding is that atemi are locations that, even when struck with force, continue to cause minimal damage (i.e. stunning, incapacitation, KO, etc.) as opposed to the more severe effects of kyusho.

If anything I'd say--based on my observations but not much experience unfortunately--that the DKI techniques draw from the TCM theory to make their kyusho applications.

Only insofar as the points relate to alleged acupuncture points. Many points in the method of striking I have trained in, while also lying on acupuncture point locations, are not acupuncture points at all, but locations of physiological weakness. Hence the debate between whether the DKI methods (or any popular method of vital point striking for that matter, mine included) are in fact affecting kyusho or atemi points.

I have heard Mr. Dillman speak of the importance of striking different points at different times of the day for maximum benefit bsed on TCM principles, for example, though if I recall correctly he doesn't advocate worrying much about this in a fight.

It would simply be impractical to assume that, at full speed, in a surprise encounter, that even detailed knowledge of kyusho techniques would enable an individual capable of rendering an attacker senseless. The defender would have to assess, instantly, which points were accessable, in what order, and what time of day it was at the time the attack was made. Failure to do this would make such strikes significantly less effective were they to do any damage at all...

Some of his high-ranking students have become acupuncturists because of their desire to learn more, I know (e.g. Ed Lake if memory serves).

Now that is encouraging! Perhaps through further education, the realities of this debate will come out.

Gambarimasu.

Matt

Thank you for the detailed answer. I thank you for a timely and polite response. I was not trying to start a flame war with my original post. In the locked Naihanchi thread there were a lot of answers of this is the way it has to be type of thing or cause i said said so, and no real reasonng behind them. I wanted to get a serious dialogue about the differences and similarities of the Traditional Chinese Medicine and the way in which Dillman uses the points of the body and the chi flow for defense.

The more info that can shared here the less BS we will see later.

Again thank you for your reply.

Hi Rob....I know this topic can be a very touchy one...I have seen it get out of hand quite often and I hope that we can also have a discussion and not a flame war here.

I was trying to answer some questions about DKI in the Naihanchi thread and will continue to answer any questions that are asked of me in a respectful manner.

I don't want to get into an arguing match or anything here and alot of what I will say is really my own opinion on how I see things in DKI and what I understand.

I am in NO WAY an expert here and just want to continue learning, as do most martial artists. I feel that you can learn from anyone, no matter their rank or lack of it. With that said....let's begin.

DKI does often refer back to Acupuncture for information regarding points and how they work and what they will affect. There are several acupuncturists in the organization that also provide guidance to us. In using that information, we do refer to the points by location....ie St 5, TW 17, etc.....this is to benefit those that we are working with to know that we are talking about the same point.

I personally feel this makes it easier for me to learn from other instructors through the internet and email when discussing a kata and techniques and knowing that we are on the same "page". It would be very easy to get confused when asking one of the Masters a question by email (since we live in different states).

I hope I have explained this well, if not, please ask away.

dki girl

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Hi Rob....I know this topic can be a very touchy one...

HA! Death Touch... Touchy Subject... HA! :lol: :lol: I kill me... :rofl: :rofl:

DKI does often refer back to Acupuncture for information regarding points and how they work and what they will affect.

So is information regarding long term damage due to repeated striking covered in your training? Beyond just "don't hit that one any more," or something similar? I know that, at least with the non-acupuncture points (i.e. the points that are not intended to be affecting the meridians or the qi directly), the danger of damage due to repeated striking is minimal) beyond torn tissue, bruising, microscopic fractures, etc., there are few risks... However, striking even non-striking point acupuncture points causes damage to the flow of the qi in that area, and can set the individual up for varied illnesses down the road...

Attempting to make a connection between TCM and vital point striking simply by referring to the points by labels that are used in TCM does not necessarily make it of that particular brand of vital point striking that it would seem to be on the surface...

There are several acupuncturists in the organization that also provide guidance to us.

What kind of guidance? Just curious to know what benefit their TCM training is having on your striking training...

In using that information, we do refer to the points by location....ie St 5, TW 17, etc.....this is to benefit those that we are working with to know that we are talking about the same point.

It has been my own admittedly limited experience that, outside the US, and when dealing with traditionally trained TCM practitioners, that the abbreviated labels are actually not used all that frequently... It seems to be another American improvisation...

[QUOTE][B]I personally feel this makes it easier for me to learn from other instructors through the internet and email when discussing a kata and techniques and knowing that we are on the same "page".[\B][\QUOTE]

While I disagree with the use of the abbreviated labels, I will admit that it makes for ease of communication - they are shorter, and there is little room for misinterpretation of the transliteration of the Chinese names. Still don't like it though... ;)

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



It has been my own admittedly limited experience that, outside the US, and when dealing with traditionally trained TCM practitioners, that the abbreviated labels are actually not used all that frequently... It seems to be another American improvisation...

While I disagree with the use of the abbreviated labels, I will admit that it makes for ease of communication - they are shorter, and there is little room for misinterpretation of the transliteration of the Chinese names. Still don't like it though... ;)

Just because you personally odn't like something...doesn't mean that it is a bad way of learning. In my experience, it is easier for me to communicate with people in and out of DKI using point location instead of names because they are easier to remember and you can find corresponding information on several websites to refer to if you are having a long distance discussion on something.

I often have discussions with other instructors about kata interpretation and in using the location names it is much easier.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yiliquan1
So is information regarding long term damage due to repeated striking covered in your training? Beyond just "don't hit that one any more," or something similar? I know that, at least with the non-acupuncture points (i.e. the points that are not intended to be affecting the meridians or the qi directly), the danger of damage due to repeated striking is minimal) beyond torn tissue, bruising, microscopic fractures, etc., there are few risks... However, striking even non-striking point acupuncture points causes damage to the flow of the qi in that area, and can set the individual up for varied illnesses down the road...

Attempting to make a connection between TCM and vital point striking simply by referring to the points by labels that are used in TCM does not necessarily make it of that particular brand of vital point striking that it would seem to be on the surface...



There has been many discussions on this topic in DKI....We are always conscious of not damaging our partners in training. Many of the "long timers"....don't want to call them "old timers" :) .....have been working these techniques for many years and have not found any side effects. (Granted...that does not mean there never will be.....no one knows everything)

When working on a particular point in training....we try to know what that point affects on the body...for instance....Large Intestine 13 will cause diarrehea....so therefore we always make sure if we are working that point that we "reset" the point to make sure our partner will not have any ill affects.

The acupuncturists in DKI are always providing us with guidance on techniques and also in healing.

Attempting to make a connection between TCM and vital point striking simply by referring to the points by labels that are used in TCM does not necessarily make it of that particular brand of vital point striking that it would seem to be on the surface...



Not sure what you mean.....please elaborate......

dki girl

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Just because you personally odn't like something...doesn't mean that it is a bad way of learning.

And with a quick re-read of my original post, you will note that I said:

I will admit that it makes for ease of communication - they are shorter, and there is little room for misinterpretation of the transliteration of the Chinese names.

My point being, and the reason I don't like it, is that it loses the original "flavor" of what is being taught... It is cheapened for the ease of transmission, because Americans (to a great degree, and I include myself in this) want everything to be easier. How long have skills like this been taught "the hard way," and students either learned it, or didn't? By making it easier, I think (and I stress the "I" of that) that it diminshes the accomplishment of learning it in the first place... Would you rather earn a gold medal by beating all the competition, or by having the competition all bow out... Either way you have the gold medal, but what satisfaction at having gained it do you have?

In my experience, it is easier for me to communicate with people in and out of DKI using point location instead of names because they are easier to remember and you can find corresponding information on several websites to refer to if you are having a long distance discussion on something.

True. I won't disagree that the shorthand references make it easier for communication. But folks in my school learn the long names and not the abbreviated labels, and we manage to discuss their location, effects, etc., just fine...

I often have discussions with other instructors about kata interpretation and in using the location names it is much easier.

See last reply above... ;)

There has been many discussions on this topic in DKI....We are always conscious of not damaging our partners in training. Many of the "long timers"....don't want to call them "old timers" :) .....have been working these techniques for many years and have not found any side effects. (Granted...that does not mean there never will be.....no one knows everything)

And this leads me to believe that you are not striking acupuncture points, but are affecting the body by striking other points that happen to be co-located at the same sites as acupuncture points... When I first started Iron Palm training (I think I have told this story elsewhere), I neglected the restorative qigong exercises that are intended to repair the damage done to the meridians ending in the hands in order to prevent the onset of illness. I neglected these exercises for only about 2 weeks. During that two weeks, I was performing striking drills on sandbags and other objects to the tune of about 200 - 400 strikes per day... After that two weeks, I began having the worst case of recurring, explosive diarrhea you can imagine... I called my best friend (who was senior to me and had already been doing the training for quite a while), and upon hearing of my symptoms immediately replied with "You aren't doing the qigong, are you?"

My point?

Repeated striking may not cause any immediate effects, and my story is an example of extreme reactions. However, after doing vital point striking training (we just call it "spotting") on some acupuncture points, I have evidenced nausea, headaches (not related to points on the head), etc., after only a short period of training...

When working on a particular point in training....we try to know what that point affects on the body...for instance....Large Intestine 13 will cause diarrehea....so therefore we always make sure if we are working that point that we "reset" the point to make sure our partner will not have any ill affects.

Not sure how you "reset" a point after it is damaged... My TCM skills are rudimentary at best, and restricted mainly to basic diagnosis and theoretical study. However, it is my understanding that when points have been damaged, and excesses or deficiencies in the flow of qi have been created, "first aid" may be given (but usually takes the form of some kind of massage or herbal preparations)... Maybe that is what you are talking about...?

The acupuncturists in DKI are always providing us with guidance on techniques and also in healing.

That is a great thing... But I wonder (and not in order to question their qualifications, but to better educate myself on their background) where they were trained? Having been a certified and school trained massage therapist, and having worked in conjunction with some doctors and chiropractors, I have found that much of the acupuncture knowledge that chiropractors have comes from weekend seminars that do little to teach diagnostic theory, and only teach "attach electrode #1 to XXX point, and #2 to YYY point, then turn machine switch to "on"."

Just making inquiring comments, not accusatory ones...

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Attempting to make a connection between TCM and vital point striking simply by referring to the points by labels that are used in TCM does not necessarily make it of that particular brand of vital point striking that it would seem to be on the surface...

Originally posted by DKI Girl

[B]Not sure what you mean.....please elaborate......

dki girl

If a person makes claims that they are striking acupuncture points to effect the energy flow of the body, then people will view that skill in one fashion.

If a person is really only striking places that are vulnerable and coincidentally located on or near acupuncture points, that is something else entirely.

The first example is viewed as a semi-mystical skill, existing only in legends, fairytales, and kung fu movies from Hong Kong. The second example is only what any good MA school should be teaching in the first place...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

From my little DKI exposure I do know that there are 3 types of points; Touch, Rub & Strike. All have their own specific applications and angles for use. I remember after each exercise we did some restoration to the body and points. I personally like the categorizing and cataloging of the points, such as Heart, Lung, Liver etc this puts them into a context that as an english speaking North American I can understand. The freer the communication and the more readily it is understood the better, is the way I look at it. The long flowery names have a purpose, but they are not essential. They were part of a process of linking things for ready understanding and for mystical effect. That is a great part of history, but that is not how I to learn.

I think the information that DKI Girl si tyring to share with us is very valuable and I am thankful she is willing to share.

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

From my little DKI exposure I do know that there are 3 types of points; Touch, Rub & Strike.

In Yiliquan, we have 4 categories - Stunning and Painful, Temporarily Disabling, Killing and Crippling and "Forbidden." We categorize by effect rather than method of striking.

All have their own specific applications and angles for use.

As do all points... some are struck perpendicularly to the striking surface, some at any angle, some at specific angles.

I remember after each exercise we did some restoration to the body and points.

Definitely a good idea... Explosive diarrhea is most *ahem* unattractive... :lol:

I personally like the categorizing and cataloging of the points, such as Heart, Lung, Liver etc this puts them into a context that as an english speaking North American I can understand. The freer the communication and the more readily it is understood the better, is the way I look at it.

First, the meridians and acupuncture points have always been categorized according to the organ relationships. My point is that not all points that are alleged to be acupuncture points are, in fact, acupuncture points that are being struck, but rather a vulnerable strike target that happens to be co-located at the acupuncture point area... This begins to be misleading, when the student believes they are striking the acupuncture point, when in reality they are not... Thus, knowing what point you really are striking becomes a bit more important... You may think you are striking an acu-point, but not, and then when you need to fix what you have "broken," the diagnosis may be incorrect since the damage was alleged to have been caused by meridian interference and damage, but in actuality was caused by something else entirely...

The long flowery names have a purpose, but they are not essential. They were part of a process of linking things for ready understanding and for mystical effect. That is a great part of history, but that is not how I to learn.

Perhaps not essential, but correct nonetheless... And I learned them in North American English (though I know the Chinese names for many of them as well), so it wasn't that hard to learn them in the first place...

I think the information that DKI Girl si tyring to share with us is very valuable and I am thankful she is willing to share.

I do, too. She is providing good information on an otherwise unpopular subject (i.e. the claims against DKI, the questions for DKI, and the contradictory claims of other groups against DKI).

Thanks for sharing with and educating us all...

:asian:

Hey guys...thanks for the good discussion...This so far has been a very nice and polite topic and hasn't gotten off track so far.

I will always share what I can with people. Of course, I may be wrong, misinformed or just don't know about some topics, but that is part of learning. If I didn't want to learn, then I wouldn't be here talking to you all.

Anyways.....Rob brought up the way DKI classifies points. Touch, Rub, or Strike. We do classify them by how they are acitivated rather than what their effect is. That is very interesting.

Yiliquan....I am curious....what type of point is GB 20....we classify it as a strike point.....do you consider it disabling? Just trying to make the connection in my mind on how they are classified for you. So we can be on the same page.....

Usually to "restore" the points that we are working on, we massage them in the direction of the energy flow in the meridian.


I think it is easier for those of us that have difficulty learning foreign languages to use the location of the point rather than the name....I know for me it is MUCH easier.

I always try to work with the points and TRY not to hit anything that I am not specifically aiming for, but once you get on the move it can be more of a general area with intent towards a specific target. I know that it still works for me....when I am teaching a technique then I always explain what I am intending to strike and then go from there.....I do miss the point too.....still practicing my techniques and learning new ones that work better for me too. I often will try one thing, but it will lead me on to another that works better for me because I am a female. Always adapting and learning!!

dki girl

Originally posted by DKI Girl

but it will lead me on to another that works better for me because I am a female.

I heard Mr. Dillman speak about women vs. men striking open/close dhand, left/right side, toes up/toes down. Have you found this to be the case--that there is a difference?

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

In Yiliquan, we have 4 categories - Stunning and Painful, Temporarily Disabling, Killing and Crippling and "Forbidden." We categorize by effect rather than method of striking.


??? You have a category beyond "Killing" that is "Forbidden"? Man, that's one tough art! Assuming it doesn't mean going after their families too, what type of point would be "Forbidden"?

In YiLiQuan, the points other than the forbidden points have an immediate effect...they are generally not found at acupuncture points (although some are)

Killing and crippling points have an immediate effect...
That is, the opponent falls down right in front of you...
Forbidden points have a delayed effect, they may be lethal or just a nuisance to the opponent, usually within 72 hours...they ARE acupuncture points.

I hesitate to say more...
They are, afterall, forbidden...;)

:asian:
chufeng

I must say that I find this topic very interesting.I have no experience with 'pressure'( don't even know if this is the correct term!) points, outside of the most basic.I hope those of you with knowledge will give us a little more info.:asian:

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Usually to "restore" the points that we are working on, we massage them in the direction of the energy flow in the meridian.

Not necessarily a good idea since you just might be "draining" the point making the condition worse. Especially since most hits to points are already "draining" in nature.


Originally posted by DKI Girl

I think it is easier for those of us that have difficulty learning foreign languages to use the location of the point rather than the name....I know for me it is MUCH easier.


The Chinese didn't sit down and think up all the names for points because their cable TV was on the blink and had nothing better to do. There are distinct reasons for each name that often lead to greater insight into what the point does or controls.
GB 20 is a great example.



As long as we are on the subject can you tell us what possible effects on the body hitting GB 20 would have?

Originally posted by arnisador



I heard Mr. Dillman speak about women vs. men striking open/close dhand, left/right side, toes up/toes down. Have you found this to be the case--that there is a difference?

Sometimes it does make a difference for me. We have not been working on this theory for long and have not worked it out yet. At many of the seminars and camps that I go to we are always trying something different to work on that theory....but it is going to take some time to figure it out.

We have worked on some that it really makes a difference and some that it doesn't change the affect at all.....so I guess right now we are at about 50%.

I can let you know as we progress or regress on the subject of women vs. men striking.

dki girl

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



Not necessarily a good idea since you just might be "draining" the point making the condition worse. Especially since most hits to points are already "draining" in nature.
...
The Chinese didn't sit down and think up all the names for points because their cable TV was on the blink and had nothing better to do. There are distinct reasons for each name that often lead to greater insight into what the point does or controls.
GB 20 is a great example.
...
As long as we are on the subject can you tell us what possible effects on the body hitting GB 20 would have?

Couple of questions:
Can someone define 'draining' for those of us who aren't familiar with the concepts here.

Would someone be kind enough to post a comparision of a 'chinese' name and 1 of the abreviated ones?

Wheres GB20 located?

On a related note, is theer a good (reliable) source online for a map of these points?

Thank you. :asian:

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Hey guys...thanks for the good discussion...This so far has been a very nice and polite topic and hasn't gotten off track so far.

It is possible to keep a steady head when discussing such things, but it is always dangerous discussing issues that are so dear to people's hearts... MA is a unique environment, and when someone has put their heart and soul into learning a style that is shown to them to be incorrect, inaccurate, fraudulent, etc., they sometimes react in unseemly ways... There is an individual I am acquainted with that practices an art that is highly suspect in its legitimacy and heritage. He firmly believes it to be the "real deal," and I know that were I to demonstrate to him the fatal flaws inherent in his training, he would cling that much more tightly to it... He is, after all, a grand master now... ;) Though of what no one seems to be sure.

I will always share what I can with people. Of course, I may be wrong, misinformed or just don't know about some topics, but that is part of learning. If I didn't want to learn, then I wouldn't be here talking to you all.

One thing I have found to be incredibly true is the usefulness of discussion forums like this one... I have found that training in other arts has opened my eyes to new perspectives on my main art, and talking with people from even more arts has allowed me to tap into a resource that answers some questions and creates even more...

Yiliquan....I am curious....what type of point is GB 20....we classify it as a strike point.....do you consider it disabling? Just trying to make the connection in my mind on how they are classified for you. So we can be on the same page.....

Well, I had to do a little research to find the point in question - again, we don't label them by the shorthand TCM method, but by their names (another point here - our method of spotting uses the name of acu-points if they are acu-points, but if they just happen to be coincidentally located at the same location of an acu-point, they may have a different name...). We call that point "Falling Point," and its proper acupuncture name is fengchi (meaning "wind pond;" thanks to the person that gave me the translation - you know who you are! ;) )

As this is a public forum, I will not detail the point's uses. There are several methods of employing that point, and I would strongly caution against its use in training with anything other than the lightest contact...

[i]Originally posted by DKI Girl

Usually to "restore" the points that we are working on, we massage them in the direction of the energy flow in the meridian.

[i]Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Not necessarily a good idea since you just might be "draining" the point making the condition worse. Especially since most hits to points are already "draining" in nature.

This is one of the detailed points that makes me think that perhaps the method of spotting used by DKI is not in actuality based on TCM any more than using points that are coincidentally acu-points... In dim mak/tian hsueh training, knowing the direction of the flow of the qi is vital in studying certain points, and it is often the change in the flow of the energy that causes the desired effects... This change in the flow is often extremely dangerous, and the danger may not evidence itself until some time later, as the gradual damage done to the meridian over time is what leads to subsequent illness and sometimes death... :uhohh:

I think it is easier for those of us that have difficulty learning foreign languages to use the location of the point rather than the name....I know for me it is MUCH easier.

I agree that it does make the task of learning to reference the points easier, but as RyuShiKan pointed out:

There are distinct reasons for each name that often lead to greater insight into what the point does or controls.

And this is the most important argument I can think of to encourage others to explore beyond the shorthand and learn the real names (they don't have to be in Chinese - they have been translated into English, you just have to find the right books...).

I always try to work with the points and TRY not to hit anything that I am not specifically aiming for, but once you get on the move it can be more of a general area with intent towards a specific target.

This was the argument that RyuShiKan pointed out in the Naihanchi thread... That practicing to strike at points on a cooperative partner at a standstill was significantly different than trying to strike points on a moving target. There was the additional argument that, with points often being no larger than a US quarter dollar coin (and those are the big ones!), often while one specific point is being targetted, it may well be that multiple points are being struck, resulting in completely different results than what were anticipated... In Yili, we will begin with static practice, but very quickly move into practicing on moving partners... There is also a great degree of additional training put into developing accuracy with the striking weapon(s), proper conditioning of the weapon(s), etc., to allow for the point to be struck accurately in the first place.

I know that it still works for me....when I am teaching a technique then I always explain what I am intending to strike and then go from there.....I do miss the point too.....still practicing my techniques and learning new ones that work better for me too. I often will try one thing, but it will lead me on to another that works better for me because I am a female. Always adapting and learning!!

As are we all...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Couple of questions:

Sure, g'head... :D

Can someone define 'draining' for those of us who aren't familiar with the concepts here.

In acupuncture theory, the qi/ki flows in particular directions from one meridian to another in a specific sequence. The flow of energy is very similar in this context as the flow of blood through the body... If you press on one part of a blood vessel, stopping the flow of blood at that point, the remainder of the vessel will "drain" of blood as there is no more blood being pumped in to it... Striking many acu-points causes much the same effect (if you accept TCM theory as accurate and correct - some folks don't), stopping the flow of qi/ki at the point of impact, causing a blockage, resulting in draining of the meridian from that point forward... Some strikes are actually intended to reverse the flow, which often results in serious illness or injury... I do not recommend anyone "playing with" or "experimenting with" this idea on their own - only bad things result from it...

Would someone be kind enough to post a comparision of a 'chinese' name and 1 of the abreviated ones?

GB 20 = fengchi = "wind pond"

Wheres GB20 located?

Due to the nature of the point and some of its effects, I think I will allow you to find it on your own... I don't want to list such info on a public forum for anybody and their inbred second cousins to go messing about without proper supervision and guidance... Email me privately (or perhaps DKI Girl), and I will let you know how to find it.

On a related note, is theer a good (reliable) source online for a map of these points?

If you go to Erle Montaigue's site, he has LOTS of downloadable content relating to such topics...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

I received an email that Kirk had posted a reply, but I am unable to see it... What happened?

As did I.

However, Moderators can erase any post with out a trace.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

I received an email that Kirk had posted a reply, but I am unable to see it... What happened?

I tried posting a .pdf that had a lot of point locations on it. The
file was too big, so it wouldn't let the post go through. My
assumption that the code snippet that sends the email notification
is before the code snippet that checks file size.

I DO NOT claim to know any of this stuff! I just find it interesting,
and I enjoy reading the majority of the posts on the subject.
Here's a website that's an html version of the .pdf I was trying
to attach in my post:

http://pressurepointfighting.com/public_html/dim_mak_taiji_points.htm

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

However, Moderators can erase any post with out a trace.

Yes, but you'd be surprised how much work it is. I want to clarify: We have Moderators, SuperModerators, and Administrators, and not all have the same capabilities. Currently Moderators cannot delete a post, save their own (same as any other member).

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

another point here - our method of spotting uses the name of acu-points if they are acu-points, but if they just happen to be coincidentally located at the same location of an acu-point, they may have a different name...

Can someone give me an example of an acu-point that coincidentally happens to be at the same location as a point you'd strike for other reasons? Or is it as simple as saying that if you kick the side of the knee trying to dislocate it then you'll slide across some acu-points while doing so?

Mark Kline, who posts here occasionally, produced a CD with very detailed info. on the points. I've seen it demo'ed at a DKI camp.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

As did I.

However, Moderators can erase any post with out a trace.

Must be a conspiracy! Sounds to me like you are waiting for him to post so you can jump all over him.

Originally posted by fist of fury



Must be a conspiracy! Sounds to me like you are waiting for him to post so you can jump all over him.


Yeah but don't tell anyone.;)

Originally posted by Arnisador

Can someone give me an example of an acu-point that coincidentally happens to be at the same location as a point you'd strike for other reasons? Or is it as simple as saying that if you kick the side of the knee trying to dislocate it then you'll slide across some acu-points while doing so?

Well, since GB 20 is what has been discussed up to this point, it seems as good a place as any to remain...

In Yili, we strike a point located at the same place GB 20 is located, but that strike is termed a muscle/nerve strike for us, and is only coincidentally an acu-point. We don't strike it to affect the meridian, but to affect the nerve below it... (i.e. lesser occipital nerve)

And in some cases, such as the knee (which has, by our methods, no less than 9 points surrounding it, with an additional 3 - 6 nearby, depending on where you hit it), it may well be that your target just accidentally hits points on the way...

Originally posted by Kirk



I tried posting a .pdf that had a lot of point locations on it. The
file was too big, so it wouldn't let the post go through. My
assumption that the code snippet that sends the email notification
is before the code snippet that checks file size.

I DO NOT claim to know any of this stuff! I just find it interesting,
and I enjoy reading the majority of the posts on the subject.
Here's a website that's an html version of the .pdf I was trying
to attach in my post:

http://pressurepointfighting.com/public_html/dim_mak_taiji_points.htm

Now you let the secret out. Now anybody and their inbred second cousins will start trying this stuff. Who knows how many of those type of people are members of this forum.

In reviewing this thread for possible errors on my postings, or areas of difficult communication, I happened to re-read the original post:

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

In the locked Nahanchi Thread, I seen a lot of animosity about the differences between TCM and rhe Dillman method. I want to know what differentiates the two so much.

The differences are that TCM is not a method of martial arts striking, and the Dillman method of vital point striking is what it is...

I know withthe Dillman method he took alesson from Ed Parker and categorized nd organized everything. Does TCM do this.

No, actually TCM is completely disorganized and totally confusing... :D :lol: I understand what you mean when you say this, but from past postings it appears that Mr. Dillman didn't really do anything that was so incredibly innovative, though it would seem so to people who have never had training in either TCM or other vital point striking methods...

I have heard a lot of half-assed remark about the Dillman method, and how it is ineffective, I want to see so arguements stating why this is so, so just, i study this style and this is how it shoudl be.

I think we are well on our way to delineating exactly what the concerns are, and the ways in which DKI's methods differ from other methods that are of a more traditional background...

I would love to see some intelligent conversation on this thread, not a mudlsinging campaign. Whatevr you have to say, I would like to see it backed up.

So far I think this has been the most controversial topic that has had this behaved and civilized of responses... Don't you?

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

Originally posted by fist of fury

Now you let the secret out. Now anybody and their inbred second cousins will start trying this stuff. Who knows how many of those type of people are members of this forum.

Not so much that it is a secret, but while I know full well how to make chlorine gas bombs on the kitchen burners, and how to make home made grenades from Coke cans and the right type of fertilizer, I don't go out of my way to post that kind of thing on the internet for some 13 year old with an axe to grind to rush out and play with...

I told the interested party to email me, and I would be happy to allow them to have the info for their use...

The inbred second cousin thing was a joke. Hope you understood that...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

Originally posted by arnisador



Can someone give me an example of an acu-point that coincidentally happens to be at the same location as a point you'd strike for other reasons? Or is it as simple as saying that if you kick the side of the knee trying to dislocate it then you'll slide across some acu-points while doing so?


I think I may have written this somewhere on this BBs maybe not.

Basically the only time your are hitting an accu-point is when it happens to be the only one in that area, certain places on the arm or leg for example, or if you are using the tip of your finger to hit it exactly on the "Spot". Since using the tip of the finger is rather unlikely we can forget it.

The rest of the time you are mainly hitting "areas" that contain at least a few accu-points.


There are several examples of the "one point" you asked about .
GB32 or (Chung Tu) place on the outside of the thigh, is used by kickboxers often, but is one point that is also used to treat muscular atrophy in the legs

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



Not so much that it is a secret, but while I know full well how to make chlorine gas bombs on the kitchen burners, and how to make home made grenades from Coke cans and the right type of fertilizer, I don't go out of my way to post that kind of thing on the internet for some 13 year old with an axe to grind to rush out and play with...

I told the interested party to email me, and I would be happy to allow them to have the info for their use...

The inbred second cousin thing was a joke. Hope you understood that...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

Yes I did. I was just carrying the joke a little further, but most of the inbred second cousins won't see it since they're at home watching Jerry Springer and not at M.A talk.

Originally posted by fist of fury



Yes I did. I was just carrying the joke a little further, but most of the inbred second cousins won't see it since they're at home watching Jerry Springer and not at M.A talk.


You would be surprised...........there be sum round here I reckon....

Now be nice...Jon Boy was told his PC had a virus, so grannys making it some chicken soup.... :)

Seriously... -if- I read you guys right, youre saying that the -average- MA when sparing etc will hit several points at the same time, but not usually with enough energy to really do much. That these points require direct manipulation in order to 'work' right.

Now, I'm steping a bit into 'fantasy' land here for a second... I think everyones seen some MA flick where someone hits a shoulder, rib, arm shot and suddenly his attackers 'frozen'. Hit these 3 spots and his lungs seize. these couple spots and his arms go dead.

Now, is this the same stuff, or different? I'm just trying to get my mind around it and seperate the 'fantasy' from the fact.

Also, if I follow (please correct me if I'm wrong here), these points can be both helpful and harmful, it depends on the intent of the one manipulting them.

:asian:

"Also, if I follow (please correct me if I'm wrong here), these points can be both helpful and harmful, it depends on the intent of the one manipulting them."

Yes...that's it exactly.
To really understand it, one must study both aspects: the healing and the harming...If one were struck on a point with proper intent, the correct method of treatment to correct the ensuing damage might be applied at a point far removed from the point struck...in order to determine the damage, one should be able to read the pulse...if you can't do that, you may choose the wrong treatment and cause more damage, hence, RyuShiKan's warning about "draining" a point with massage.

:asian:
chufeng

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz



Now, I'm steping a bit into 'fantasy' land here for a second... I think everyones seen some MA flick where someone hits a shoulder, rib, arm shot and suddenly his attackers 'frozen'. Hit these 3 spots and his lungs seize. these couple spots and his arms go dead.

Now, is this the same stuff, or different? I'm just trying to get my mind around it and seperate the 'fantasy' from the fact.


:asian:

Actually we have caused someone's lung to shut down once and I have also seen once where the diaphrapm was not functioning and the person was not able to breathe.....Thank goodness that we knew how to fix them too!!

That is of course some of the more dangerous ones that I have seen. There are of course the ones that we have numbed areas and then fixed those too.

dki girl

Originally posted by DKI Girl



Actually we have caused someone's lung to shut down once and I have also seen once where the diaphrapm was not functioning and the person was not able to breathe.....Thank goodness that we knew how to fix them too!!
dki girl



How did you fix them?

One thing I am curious about his Dillman's "no touch KO's" .................does anyone have any thing to add on those?

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

One thing I am curious about his Dillman's "no touch KO's" .................does anyone have any thing to add on those?

I have seen him demonstrate these and have posted about it previously. See for example the second post in this thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=434).

On a related note, see this thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1738).

Originally posted by arnisador



I heard Mr. Dillman speak about women vs. men striking open/close dhand, left/right side, toes up/toes down. Have you found this to be the case--that there is a difference?

From what I have heard women's chi flows differently than mens almost like it is reversed polarity, that is why women use different strikes for the smae results as men.

I have read that thread and wanted to hear some comments from the Dillman people.

Originally posted by Rob_Broad



From what I have heard women's chi flows differently than mens almost like it is reversed polarity, that is why women use different strikes for the smae results as men.

There are many techniques that I have tried that this does work on and some that it doesn't....some of it may have to do with just not feeling comfortable with that particular technique and others that I have done often enough that they work quite well......hope that makes sense.


As for the No Touch subject.....

Could the moderators copy the posts that deal with the no touch issue onto a new topic so this post stays on topic. I think the two issues are separate and need to be talked about seperately and objectively. This thread has been going very well and I really don't want it to develop into a flame war because of different ideas and opinions on the No Touch Topic.

dki girl

Originally posted by DKI Girl


As for the No Touch subject.....

Could the moderators copy the posts that deal with the no touch issue onto a new topic so this post stays on topic. I think the two issues are separate and need to be talked about seperately and objectively. This thread has been going very well and I really don't want it to develop into a flame war because of different ideas and opinions on the No Touch Topic.

dki girl


How is it different from this topic?

Quite frankly, I don't know squat about Mr. Dillman or his methods...

I do know that Oyata Sensei was very disappointed in the perceived betrayal after Mr. Dillman made claims of learning this "awesome" hidden stuff in the old Okinawan katas...

The story, as I heard it, goes something like this...

Mr. Dillman apparently had the door to the information contained in the forms opened to him by some old master...

What he fails to mention in that account is that his "enlightenment" actually occurred after spending time with Oyata Sensei...naturally, Oyata Sensei was pissed when Mr. Dillman claimed that his "revelation" was the result of working with OTHER people...Mr. Dillman gives no credit to Oyata Sensei until his second book...but even then he infers that Oyata Sensei played a minimal role in his understanding...all this during the time when Oyata Sensei was openly sharing SOME of his spotting techniques with just about every school that would have him in to do a seminar...

That said, I do believe that Dillman and his students are fully capable of performing SOME of the spotting techniques that originated in the Okinawan kata...
I don't know whether or not they fully undertand what they are doing, however...but that is not really important for this part of my discussion...

I do think that one can manipulate another's qi without physically touching them...I don't know whether one can actually cause disability or unconsciousness with the technique, though.

Everytime I've used qi manipulation, it has been for therapeutic reasons and with fully cooperative individuals...so, to make the leap that one could Knock out someone without touching him/her is difficult for me...Too many variables are involved...the results I've had with no touch qi therapy may be entirely related to the placebo effect and have NOTHING to do with actual manipulation of qi...I suspect that Mr. Dillman's successes with the "technique" of knocking someone out without touching them stems from a similar situation...someone who is willing to cooperate...I am not closed to the idea that it is possible, but it would require an unbelievable amount of control under very difficult circumstances for even a senior martial artist...IMHO

:asian:
chufeng

Chufeng,

There was a magazine called: Official Karate that had an article in their 1984 July Issue. The article was mainly an interview with Mr. Oyata but they also asked Dillman what he thought of kyusho and tuite after being invited to participate and having been used for a crash dummy that day. Dillman said and I quote: "It is totally fantastic! I've been involved in Okinawan karate for over 25 years and never experienced anything like it. ".

For those of you that are in the "know" this is no big surprise, however for those of you that are familiar with Dillman and his claim of learning some good stuff from Hohan Soken must be thinking it's kind of weird since Soken died 2 years before (1982) the interview for that magazine.

I also know someone that was with Dillman the 1 and only time Dillman met Soken and doesn't seem to recall "Georgie" getting any nifty techniques or scrolls from Soken..............at least not as far as tuite or kyusho are involved.
Soken did put on a demo that DID NOT consist of any tuite or kyusho.

Arigato for that bit of information.

I don't want to fan the flames, so I won't follow-up on that specific point.

I do think it's possible that someone can discover many things within the forms they train...there is an incredible amount of information contained within even the "simplest" of forms...it is a shame to see the crowd who would discard forms for "more realistic" training...they have no idea what they are missing....and they PISS down the martial arts to the lowest level of skill.

I am not suggesting this is the case with Dillman (remember, I left that subject)...

I agree with Matt Stone that to sample from the well of knowledge is dangerous...one must drink deeply, or not drink at all. I applaud anyone's effort to arrive at a deeper understanding of any art they choose to practice...

I do caution anyone who thinks that they can learn the secrets of an art via the internet, though...you will never get the information necessary to SAFELY practice the techniques...so, find a qualified instructor before walking that path...please.

:asian:
chufeng

Well everyone....let's get back on track here. I'm not going to tell any stories that I have heard or argue with the stories that everyone else has heard or told.

I do agree that you need to have a qualified instructor to learn more about pressure points or anything similiar. Learning them without supervision can lead to some very serious issues.

dki girl

Originally posted by DKI Girl


I do agree that you need to have a qualified instructor to learn more about pressure points or anything similiar.

dki girl


I thought that is what I was trying to say all along.:D

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Well everyone....let's get back on track here. I'm not going to tell any stories that I have heard or argue with the stories that everyone else has heard or told.
dki girl


Actually they aren't "stories" they are "quotes" from a magazine that anyone can read for themself.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

It has been my own admittedly limited experience that, outside the US, and when dealing with traditionally trained TCM practitioners, that the abbreviated labels are actually not used all that frequently... It seems to be another American improvisation...

Take heart my friend, it happens all the way down here in Australia as well. But then again it may be that if an instructor has trained O/S, and hasn't been to Asia, you can bet he trained in the US.

--Dave:asian:

We Americans tend toward the "I can do it better, no matter how much has gone before" mentality, and TCM, MA, kyusho, etc., is absolutely no different...

Given that our country is a scant two and a quarter plus centuries old, we somehow have convinced ourselves that we know enough to toss thousands of years of tradition, research, and information out the window because somehow, somehow we have managed to outdo all of that with our one limited lifetime of experience...

In searching for another analogous situation, I am reminded of a Columbo episode wherein our famed detective had just arrested yet another man who thought he had created the "perfect crime" of murdering his wife... Columbo informed him that "This was your first murder ever... This was my seventh... This week."

I think that, with a little reflection, my meaning will become clear...

For one, I am all for making learning easier, but it must be borne in mind that earning is the greatest part of learning.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

We Americans tend toward the "I can do it better, no matter how much has gone before" mentality, and TCM, MA, kyusho, etc., is absolutely no different...

Given that our country is a scant two and a quarter plus centuries old, we somehow have convinced ourselves that we know enough to toss thousands of years of tradition, research, and information out the window because somehow, somehow we have managed to outdo all of that with our one limited lifetime of experience...

In searching for another analogous situation, I am reminded of a Columbo episode wherein our famed detective had just arrested yet another man who thought he had created the "perfect crime" of murdering his wife... Columbo informed him that "This was your first murder ever... This was my seventh... This week."..............


And isn't it odd that those same people think they are making something "new" when in actuality they are just repeating the same things that have already been done long ago..........and more often than not it is the mistakes that they copy.

My instructor got his first taste of pressure points from Mr. Dillman, but eventually chose to follow a different path. I can't tell you where he does his research(because I don't know), but I do know that his stuff works. He doesn't just use PP's for knockouts, but also knows how to generate the most intense and excrutiating pain I have ever felt. I do know that some of what we do can cause KO's. I know this because I was KO'd by another student who just happened to make enough contact to put me out.
I am one of these people who can be quite cynical. My martial arts base is in American Kenpo and even though I haven't trained in it for over 3 years now I still follow their saying, "To feel is to believe". If I can't feel it I won't believe it!

I know some people don't agree with what Dillman does and they're entitled to their own opinion, but my question would be, if it works in a REAL situation, does it matter where it comes from?

--Dave

Originally posted by D.Cobb

I know some people don't agree with what Dillman does and they're entitled to their own opinion, but my question would be, if it works in a REAL situation, does it matter where it comes from?--Dave

I have no problem with stuff that works in a "real" situation.........or at least works when one try's to simulate a real situation.
However, when folks stand there like a lamp post when they attack is when I start thinking they should re-evaluate what they are doing. Pretty much anyone can defeat an non-aggressive attacker that is stationary and puts up a modicum of resistance.
Get someone to go about 50% speed and then it becomes more of a challenge and benificial training tool otherwise you are just wasting time.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Well everyone....let's get back on track here. SNIPPED FOR CONTENT BY YILIQUAN1

dki girl

I agree fully.

I think the last point I made was: Are the points commonly in use by DKI really acupuncture points, or are they in fact points that are only coincidentally co-located at acupuncture point locations?

It seems that, based on very preliminary reading stemming from this thread, that some of the points in use are used for purposes far removed from the acupuncture related effects of the same point...

Comments?

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



I agree fully.

I think the last point I made was: Are the points commonly in use by DKI really acupuncture points, or are they in fact points that are only coincidentally co-located at acupuncture point locations?

It seems that, based on very preliminary reading stemming from this thread, that some of the points in use are used for purposes far removed from the acupuncture related effects of the same point...

Comments?

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

I think this question is going to be very difficult to answer to anyone's satisfaction. Any suggestions on how we can accomplish this?

Not sure I understand the second paragraph.....can you please rephrase it?

dki girl

Originally posted by DKI Girl



I think this question is going to be very difficult to answer to anyone's satisfaction. Any suggestions on how we can accomplish this?

Not sure I understand the second paragraph.....can you please rephrase it?

dki girl

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

It seems that, based on very preliminary reading stemming from this thread, that some of the points in use are used for purposes far removed from the acupuncture related effects of the same point...

I have done a very small amount of reading in my old acupuncture textbooks regarding the indications of the use of particular acupuncture points, and attempted to cross reference a few with the manuals I have from my teacher regarding our method of vital point striking ("spotting"). I have been not all that successful thusfar in making a corrolation between some of the points (like GB20, which was cited by DKI Girl earlier in the thread) as simple KO points... In fact, some of the points are not even indicated for use in such a manner at all, but have other effects entirely...

This leads me to believe that while DKI may well be referring to the points by acupuncture shorthand labels, the points that are being struck are in fact not necessarily acupuncture points at all...

This then leads back into the ideas introduced in the Naihanchi thread that perhaps the points being struck are not kyusho but rather atemi. That does not detract from those points' effectiveness in resulting in KOs on the victim, but it does detract from the belief that the users are striking acupuncture points...

I am at work right now (for a short time, anyway). As my household goods have been shipped back to the US, I no longer have any of my manuals at hand for access... If RyuShiKan or Chufeng could perhaps shed some light on the indications of some acupuncture points, and perhaps compare them to the alleged use by DKI and other groups, it would illuminate the subject further for everyone...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



I have done a very small amount of reading in my old acupuncture textbooks regarding the indications of the use of particular acupuncture points, and attempted to cross reference a few with the manuals I have from my teacher regarding our method of vital point striking ("spotting"). I have been not all that successful thusfar in making a corrolation between some of the points (like GB20, which was cited by DKI Girl earlier in the thread) as simple KO points... In fact, some of the points are not even indicated for use in such a manner at all, but have other effects entirely...


:asian:

I guess I just don't understand.....just because a point does one thing healing, why could it not be used in a different way with hurting.....

I am keeping an open mind here and have had no formal training in acupuncture.....Just trying to learn and expand my horizons here.

Let's go ahead and stick with GB20 and discuss that one so we have a common point to correlate with.

GB 20 when struck at a 45 degree angle up towards the opposite eye will cause disorientation or unconsciousness depending on the severity of the strike and the energy you put into it.

GB 20 for healing will benefits the head and eyes, clears the sense organs, activates the channel and alleviates pain.

I guess my interpretation is that for hurting it can cause dizziness and unfocused vision and the healing side also benefits the head and eyes.

I see this as a correlation between hurting and healing.....

Comments??? Discussion????

dki girl

Originally posted by DKI Girl



I guess I just don't understand.....just because a point does one thing healing, why could it not be used in a different way with hurting.....

I am afraid there quite a few books you will need to read on accupuncture before you can truly understand that.



Originally posted by DKI Girl

Let's go ahead and stick with GB20 and discuss that one so we have a common point to correlate with.

GB 20 when struck at a 45 degree angle up towards the opposite eye will cause disorientation or unconsciousness depending on the severity of the strike and the energy you put into it.

So are you hitting with the tip of your finger? Because if you aren't you aren't really hitting GB20.
I tried to explain this before but was labeled as "arrogant". So after studying acupuncture and being licensed as well as studying tuite, kyusho/atemi longer than the head of your association doesn't qualify me as someone that knows what they are talking about I am not sure what does.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

GB 20 for healing will benefits the head and eyes, clears the sense organs, activates the channel and alleviates pain.

To say that GB20 heals those above mentioned areas is not incorrect but one has to consider other factors.

Here is an example:

Years ago I took one hell of a shot to the kidneys and later had urine the color of coca cola, this condition came and went for about 6 months and after countless tests my regular physician had no idea what the cause was.
He suggested an exploratory..........
I went to an acupuncturist that looked me over did some tertiary tests and said "No problem........takes about 2 maybe 3 visits".

To make a long story short he used ST 36 which is found just on the outside of the leg just below the knee. It is a stomach point not a kidney point, but because of the nature of my injury and the symptoms I had it was the right spot...............and not even close to where I got hit.
This is why I come down hard on folks on these boards that think they can do TCM just because they can whack someone on the neck and make them go night-night.
They have no clue as to what they are talking about.......................TCM is a whole different ball game.

Originally posted by DKI Girl



I guess I just don't understand.....just because a point does one thing healing, why could it not be used in a different way with hurting.....


As I mentioned on the Naihanchi thread............you aren't really hitting "1" acupuncture point most of the time. You are hitting "areas" that have points in them. Peoples hands are just too large to hit one single solitary point.

In the Naihanchi thread I asked this question:

"In your videos when you and your pals are whacking people on the neck which "kyusho" point (actually they aren't kyusho points) do you think is responsible for knocking them out or what ever it is that happens to them in your video.
To put it in terms you can relate to.................Is it LI-18, ST-5,9, or 10, TH-16?
After hitting the said point are there any long term ill effects? If so what and how would you correct such a problem?"

It was actually a trick question.The answer is you are hitting all or most of those points but that is not what makes the knockout happen.
The KO is caused by the brain being banged around just as if someone were to get punched on the chin with a good shot, and the effects of such a KO are the same.

Peoples hands are just too large to hit one single solitary point.

How about knuckles or finger strikes?

I think digital strikes (and I'm not talking about those made via the internet ;) ) are a whole 'nother animal in this conversation, and perhaps warrant their own discussion...

The strikes that seem to be used most often are open handed knife hand type strikes or knuckle strikes. I can't say that outside of my own style I have seen folks using digital strikes all that often - I know they practice them as part of their system, but I don't see them actually used all that much...

Just my perception...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz



How about knuckles or finger strikes?


It actually depends on where and how you hit.

Most points are the size of a dime or smaller... The really big ones are the size of a US quarter. So it is plain to see why there is an issue of accurately striking one single solitary point to the exclusion of points in the surrounding areas...

A point we use called "Storehouse Point," located at the intercostal space between the 3rd and 4th ribs approximately 2" off the centerline, is one of the really big ones, and is literally only about 1" in diameter...

Even using a knuckle strike, it is difficult to affect that point (although with sufficient training it does get easier over time).

I think the contention with the points located on the head and neck is that, if they are truly all acupuncture points, with strikes such as the ones demonstrated by DKI folks, there is little probability that only one point is actually being triggered, and a higher probability that two or more are being struck instead...

Just my observation, for what it is worth.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

I do alot of my strikes with the last knuckle on my fist (pinky finger knuckle)...I find that this fits in most of the points quite nicely and I can get the angle and direction that I want too.

I guess what is the big deal if I do strike more than one point at a time? So if I am going for GB 20 and hit BL 10 too and my opponent goes unconscious and I can get away....what difference does it make?

dki girl

Originally posted by DKI Girl

I do alot of my strikes with the last knuckle on my fist (pinky finger knuckle)...I find that this fits in most of the points quite nicely and I can get the angle and direction that I want too.

I guess what is the big deal if I do strike more than one point at a time? So if I am going for GB 20 and hit BL 10 too and my opponent goes unconscious and I can get away....what difference does it make?

dki girl

And there in lie RyuShiKan's arguement(I believe).
he has never said that the knock outs don't work, but has asked repeatedly, why would you attribute a KO to a certain point, ie. GB20 when quite possibly it is a combination of 2 or more points in one hit. Also, how can we attribute a certain result to pressure points when quite often it is just a result of the head getting whacked hard enough to bounce the brain around.
I am still quite new to all this pressure point stuff, I have been KO'd and I have been hit in such a way that I felt like I had been shocked, so I don't dispute the theory at all. However I think that as Mr, Rousselot has been learning this stuff (pressure point fighting) longer than most of our instructors have, surely we owe it to him to at least try and answer his questions.
:asian:
--Dave

Dave,

Part of the problem for the misunderstanding on this thread is certain folks might have me on their "ignore list" and therefore aren't able to read what I am posting...............don't, just a guess.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Dave,

Part of the problem for the misunderstanding on this thread is certain folks might have me on their "ignore list" and therefore aren't able to read what I am posting...............don't, just a guess.

You know, I never thought of that.:D

Oddly enough some folks on this BBs don't like what I have to say........................go figure.:D

Yes Dave...I do have him on my ignore list....because everytime he addresses me he is nothing but rude and condescending. I don't have to put up with that.


Anyway, there are alot of different ways to strike...we all know that....sometimes we use an open hand and sometimes a closed hand. It is a matter of style and what the person prefers to hit with.

I like to hit with my pinky knuckle because it fits into the points so well, so therefore I usually know what points I am striking. I am human, so I do make mistakes or miss a point altogether.

Not all KO's are to the head either....so how do those that say it is just the head getting knocked around explain those ko's? I have seen MANY ko's with only body shots or leg shots.

And yes, I do see alot of open hand strikes too and I know that they are hitting more than what they are telling, but there is also that point that not everyone needs to know everything. Especially in an open seminar where you may not want someone to know everything. Does that make sense??? Not sure I explained that one very well.

dkigirl

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Anyway, there are alot of different ways to strike...we all know that....sometimes we use an open hand and sometimes a closed hand. It is a matter of style and what the person prefers to hit with.

This is true. However, some strikes are more applicable to some targets or uses... Not that anybody has debated that, mind you.

I like to hit with my pinky knuckle because it fits into the points so well, so therefore I usually know what points I am striking.

Except for the fact that there is almost no support for that striking surfact to speak of, I would suspect that the soft tissue target areas you are striking are being hit with more than just that one knuckle... Soft tissue tends to collapse and form itself to the striking surface being wedged into it. Digital strikes like finger strikes, spear hands, single extended or semi-extended fingers... These are all used to target very small soft tissue (and some lighter strikes to hard surfaces) targets, and they fit due to their specific sizes. However, at least in our school, it takes at least a year's worth of training to get them ready to be used...

I am human, so I do make mistakes or miss a point altogether.

So if you make a mistake, or miss a point altogether, what results do you get? If you make a mistake and still get a KO, while it did work, what do you attribute the KO to?

Not all KO's are to the head either....so how do those that say it is just the head getting knocked around explain those ko's? I have seen MANY ko's with only body shots or leg shots.

Which again begs the question that, if the points are so small, and such large surface strikes are being used, exactly what is being struck? Single or multiple points?

And yes, I do see alot of open hand strikes too and I know that they are hitting more than what they are telling, but there is also that point that not everyone needs to know everything. Especially in an open seminar where you may not want someone to know everything. Does that make sense??? Not sure I explained that one very well.

That last paragraph could use more detailed explanation... I will wait on a reply until you provide a better explanation (I don't want to run off at the mouth because of a misunderstanding...).

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Yes Dave...I do have him on my ignore list....because everytime he addresses me he is nothing but rude and condescending. I don't have to put up with that.


The Chinese have a good saying for this: "Good medicine always tastes bad"



Originally posted by DKI Girl

Not all KO's are to the head either....so how do those that say it is just the head getting knocked around explain those ko's? I have seen MANY ko's with only body shots or leg shots.


So you obviously do read some of what I have written. I merely explained to you how the "neck whack" that you mistakenly called a kyusho knock out worked, nothing more.

I would however like to hear your theory on how and why the leg & body shots cause KO's.
Care to enlighten us?

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

I would however like to hear your theory on how and why the leg & body shots cause KO's.

Care to enlighten us?

I, too, would be interested in the theories used to explain this phenomena... I know of a few ideas, but it is always interesting to hear other perspectives for the educational value.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1


Posted by DKI Girl:
quote: And yes, I do see alot of open hand strikes too and I know that they are hitting more than what they are telling, but there is also that point that not everyone needs to know everything. Especially in an open seminar where you may not want someone to know everything. Does that make sense??? Not sure I explained that one very well.

Posted by Yiliquan1:
That last paragraph could use more detailed explanation... I will wait on a reply until you provide a better explanation (I don't want to run off at the mouth because of a misunderstanding...).

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

Okay....let's say I am attending a seminar given by a DKI instructor. I am moving around helping out those that need assistance and I meet someone that is rude or of questionable behavior. Further along in the seminar, the instructor does a technique that causes a KO or some other affect. I know that the instructor is using several points together because of the location or of the technique that I saw him or her use. The person that I came across earlier in the seminar comes up to me and asks questions about the technique. I then can either refer him or her to the instructor of the seminar or choose not to "tell all" about the technique because I question their attitude....


Now....maybe that person is having a bad day or maybe it's me that is not receiving them right.....so after I get to know that person better I would be more open to them and telling them more information if I felt they needed the info.

This is a complete personal judgement for me. There are several people that I have met over the years that I feel do not need the information and I refuse to teach them until I fell they have changed enough to warrant having the information. Just like I would not give someone a loaded 45 and hand it to them butt first.

dki girl

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



I, too, would be interested in the theories used to explain this phenomena... I know of a few ideas, but it is always interesting to hear other perspectives for the educational value.


I agree.

One possibility would be if you kick the guy and he falls down and bangs his head on the floor and pass out. :asian:

Another is if your shoe falls off and hits him in the head. :rofl:

In the process of moving from Japan to Washington state, so I have been offline the past few weeks...

DKI Girl posted:

there is also that point that not everyone needs to know everything

to which I replied:

I will wait on a reply until you provide a better explanation (I don't want to run off at the mouth because of a misunderstanding...).

And then DKI Girl re-replied:

Okay....let's say I am attending a seminar given by a DKI instructor. I am moving around helping out those that need assistance and I meet someone that is rude or of questionable behavior. Further along in the seminar, the instructor does a technique that causes a KO or some other affect. I know that the instructor is using several points together because of the location or of the technique that I saw him or her use. The person that I came across earlier in the seminar comes up to me and asks questions about the technique. I then can either refer him or her to the instructor of the seminar or choose not to "tell all" about the technique because I question their attitude....

My first comment is that if we are going to, as commercially oriented instructors, "sell" our information for a meal ticket, then we have a certain ethical obligation (in my opinion) not to sell "lemons." If we sell the information, we sell all of it, or we at least inform the buyer that they are not receiving the full transmission. Failing to do so arms the buyer with the belief that he/she does possess the full transmission, and in the event they are confronted with the regrettable situation of having to use that information in defense of their own life, or worse yet they feel a need to begin teaching the information themselves, the end result is yet another woefully inadequate information base.

Bottom line, if you have someone that is questionable in their intent, don't teach them at all. If you are going to open a seminar to any Tom/Dick/Harry, you need to teach them what you claim you are teaching them. Watering it down could amount to fraud in some circumstances if you claim you will teach them the ancient secrets of the death touch, and all they get is the ancient secrets of the knockout touch... ;) Ethically, some of these nincompoops may actually one day put their butts on the line thinking they know enough to do more than pass their wallet on to a new owner, and may end up in the E.R. getting stitched up for their troubles... If we claim to teach self-defense, and we teach our students techniques that are not fully transmitted, nor fully effective due to a lack of understanding, we have failed our students terribly.

Now, I can understand not wanting to pass certain info on to certain individuals... Exclude them entirely. It is still legally possible to restrict the attendance to such seminars. This may reduce such a need to monitor what is being taught to whom... Of course, there is that whole "don't teach this kind of information at a seminar" theory (to which I personally adhere) that will preclude the wondering of whether a person is "worthy enough" to possess the full transmission in the first place.

Just my rather untimely and late 2 yen, soon to be 2 cents...

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Now....maybe that person is having a bad day or maybe it's me that is not receiving them right.....so after I get to know that person better I would be more open to them and telling them more information if I felt they needed the info.
dki girl

I have an idea. Why don't you just put them on your ignore list like you do me. ;) (joking)

Did this thread die and nobody sent out an obitutary notice?

Still waiting for feedback.


Originally posted by DKI Girl

I like to hit with my pinky knuckle because it fits into the points so well, so therefore I usually know what points I am striking. I am human, so I do make mistakes or miss a point altogether.

While I know that there are many body surfaces that seem ill suited for striking, the use of the "pinky knuckle" causes me a bit of concern... Not too much support in that area for a strike of very significant power... How do you use it, and in what areas?

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Not all KO's are to the head either....so how do those that say it is just the head getting knocked around explain those ko's? I have seen MANY ko's with only body shots or leg shots.

Still interested in hearing your theories on how these work...

Gambarimasu.

I use that knuckle very often and very effectively. I have used it to strike many different points. For me it works very well getting into the points on the guys that I work with to make my techniques more effective and more painful for them.

Depending on what type of technique you are doing, whether it be to the body, head or extremities, the body will react to protect itself from damage being done to it. Therefore, unconsciousness is one effect that can happen before the body or organ is damaged.

What is your opinion on this matter....I am curious to your views too....that's why I stick around

dki girl

Originally posted by DKI Girl

I use that knuckle very often and very effectively. I have used it to strike many different points. For me it works very well getting into the points on the guys that I work with to make my techniques more effective and more painful for them.

dki girl

While you are applying this "pinky-punch" which fingers do you put strength in and which do you leave "relaxed"?

Hi dkigirl,

You know I've just come off another thread and your doing your best to defend Mr. Dillmans teachings there too.
While I commend you for standing up for what you believe in, I can't help but feel you have been duped into this situation by a businessman who could care less for your health and welfare (both physical and mental).
The martial arts are a journey into the 'self' not a trip through life in the shadow of another.
Please use some of that intuition that women are famous for (and rightly so in my book), and look again at what you are asked to believe by your teachers, and are in turn, asking others to believe.
Much of what Mr. Dillman teaches is found in other martial arts, but he has taken one step further (in the name of liberty and the American dream no doubt) and sold you and others like you a dream that can not be achieved.
I believe that in your heart you know this to be the case, you sound an intelligent person in all other respects, so I'm wondering if it is simply loyalty to your group that has you holding the flag ?
In the world of yoga (in America) right now there is an Indian guy who is ripping people off to the tune of US$5.000 to join up and become 'instructors' of his method. He heats the room up to resemble a sauna and this is his 'gimmick'. He's making a mint from his outlandish claims and yet why he does is no different than any othet yoga teacher (except for the heated rooms).
People are flocking to him, but the only outcome of all this will be the same as the outcome Mr. Dillman has made for himself, lots of money flowing into his bank balance, and people left with little or no understanding of what it was they were doing?
I've taken the time to write this because I beleive you are a serious martial artist who has been tricked into something that will leave you stranded in the long run.
I won't reply again unless you ask me a direct question, but please, try to see past the 'hype' and keep your feet firmly on the ground.

Peace and harmony to all,
Mike.

Hey Mike....just one question.....

Have you ever met Mr and Mrs Dillman personally?

dkigirl

What would meeting them in person do to change the fact that most reasonable people (even those who believe in qi, like me) would find it extremely difficult to believe that someone claims, all of a sudden, to be able to KO someone from a distance without laying a hand on them at all...

Why is it that this ability, like the famed and dreaded "empty force," only receive token support from the extreme fringe?

I believe in qi, but I know that it cannot be applied without physical contact.

I am with Mike on this one... If Dillman or any of the other folks that claim they can KO me without touching me at all can actually perform this trick under the conditions Mike has set forth, I will quit practicing my style of martial arts and follow them faithfully until I am able to perform the same techniques...

Gambarimasu.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Hey Mike....just one question.....

Have you ever met Mr and Mrs Dillman personally?

dkigirl


I don't know if Mike has........... but I sure have. :D

Hello dkigirl,

You asked me, so I'm answering.
I'm not sure what meeting Mr. Dillman and his wife would do?
It's not them I have a problem with, but some of the claims they and people like them are making.

When all the talk is done, and all the tempers and attitude has faded, the problem still remains, Mr. Dillman is telling lies about his abilities to k.o people without touching them.

As I said, I think it's great that you stand up for what you believe in. But I can only repeat the offer I've made to anyone who feels they can knock me out or kill me in the way Mr.Dillman says is possible.

As for meeting him. Perhaps he would like to take me up on the offer himself? He seems to like publicity, and l'm sure there are plenty of t.v. stations, newspapers and magazines around the world that would love to cover the event.

I have to say (and I do so out of concern for you as a fellow human being) it is not healthy to 'give' this kind of 'power' to another person. The people in Waco thought they had a good leader, as did the folks at Jonestown (?). From the inside it is often hard to see just how far one has fallen, but from a distance the depth is clear. Regardless of the outcome of this thread, I'd ask you and the other members of your group, to take care of yourselves in both body and mind and focus more on the art and not the person 'selling' it.

Best regards,
Mike.

Originally posted by Mike Clarke

the problem still remains, Mr. Dillman is telling lies about his abilities to k.o people without touching them.

I have seen Mr. Dillman perform his no-touch knockouts and have heard him discuss them and I do not believe he is lying. I believe that he truly believes that it works.

I also think you're overlooking the possibility of a rational explanation (hypnotism).

Okay,

So now I'm being asked to believe that Mr. Dillman (or someone else) is going to have to , or be able to, use hypnotism on me in order to get this stuff to work. Is this right? Is this the kind of stuff grown people are asking of me?????

Look, I don't want to be the one carrying the flag for those who know the world is round, I'm just putting my offer out there on the table. I see I'm not the only one prepared to do it either.
Talk is cheap, and though I believe you saw something (a knock out of sorts), I don't believe for one minute it was legitimate.
When your fooling people, as I believe Mr. Dillman is, you are never up front about the things your're doing. In this case, as in many others, seeing is not believing.

As long as there are good folk around to cary their banners, the Dillmans of this world will always be assured a good income.
This does not make them right and this does not make them good, it only makes them successful at the scam they are pulling off.

There's a lovely old American song that goes some thing like;
"Tis a gift to be simple.....tis a gift to be free."

I think people like Mr.Dillman take advantage of that.
Let's try to keep martial arts for those interested in martial arts shall we, and leave the circus tricks where they belong.

Mike.

Originally posted by Mike Clarke

So now I'm being asked to believe that Mr. Dillman (or someone else) is going to have to , or be able to, use hypnotism on me in order to get this stuff to work. Is this right? Is this the kind of stuff grown people are asking of me?????


You misunderstand me. I have seen Mr. Dillman and some of his senior students perform these no-touch knockouts. As I've previously stated on this board, I believe that they are 100% "social pressure" knockouts--the students drop to avoid embarrassing their instructors.

On the other hand, you've made a broad claim that something like a no-touch knockout is simply impossible--and I think that when one considers the feats of mesmerists and the amazing tricks the mind can play on the body, it's premature to rule out the possibility of a no-touch knockout. Stage hypnotists do succeed in hypnotizing people from the audience who are not their shills. I suspect that part of the explanation for Mr. Dillman's success in convincing people that these work is due to his having accidentally rediscovered certain aspects of stage magic and mesmerism. Certainly this is the case for the "moving people without touching them" trick.

I would also say that I have attended Mr. Dillman's seminars on a number of occasions and have also had opportunities to work with students of his and I do believe that he sincerely believes that these techniques work. Certainly his senior students do, and many of them are developing an interest in accupuncture; at least one has become licensed in it, I understand.

I must also say that he has other theories that are at least as bizarre, including a theory of how sounds (made orally by the karateka) significantly magnify the effects of techniques, and a theory that one should choose one's techniques based on the color shirts being worn by the karateka and his opponent (e.g., if your opponent has a red shirt on, use a technique aimed at the heart). There is also a theory that men and women should strike differently from one another--unless they're homosexual. (Yes, he said this.) Also, that some strikes should be delivered with the big toes raised and others with them grounded. So, it gets worse.

Let me be sure I'm clear. I don't believe that there are chi-based no-touch knockouts, and I believe the no-touch knockouts I've seen are due to standard psychological effects--the desire not to embarrass one's superior leading to compliance. But I do believe that what amounts to hypnotism could play a role, based on how they're done. (Have you seen a clip of one being performed? The performer and victim stand still near one another for a minute or more before it takes effect.) Hence, a blanket statement that it cannot be done--altering consciousness without contact--seems at least as unsupported and unscientific as the claim that it can be done via chi.

Originally posted by arnisador

.......I must also say that he has other theories that are at least as bizarre, including a theory of how sounds (made orally by the karateka) significantly magnify the effects of techniques, and a theory that one should choose one's techniques based on the color shirts being worn by the karateka and his opponent (e.g., if your opponent has a red shirt on, use a technique aimed at the heart). There is also a theory that men and women should strike differently from one another--unless they're homosexual. (Yes, he said this.) Also, that some strikes should be delivered with the big toes raised and others with them grounded. So, it gets worse.........

How could it get even worse? :)

It doesn't matter if Mr. Dillman sincerely believes in his views or not. Just b/c Osama believes (or believed; he could be dead) in his crack pot theory, does not change its nature. Whatever Mr Dillman believes, he cannot defy the law of physics. He is no X-MAN and cannot emit particle beam. :)

I agree with your explaination for the "no-touch KO" phenomenon. It is a staged performance.

Originally posted by KennethKu

I agree with your explaination for the "no-touch KO" phenomenon. It is a staged performance.

This is not exactly what I'm saying, if by this you mean a charade set up in advance to fool the spectators. I do not believe the person being knocked-out has agreed in advance to take a fall--I believe they fall to avoid embarrassing their instructor, leaving the instructor believing that it worked. It's stage magic in the sense of a hypnotist who works with regular audience members, not in the sense of a magician who works with accomplices planted there.

Again, having watched the performer and the recipient stare at one another for a minute or so for some of these knock-outs, with the performer extending a hand and the recipient intently focusing on it, I can believe that hypnotism and standard psychological/physiological effects of intense concentration, standing still for a lengthy period, the desire not to embarrass others, and of course the power of suggestion (as they're told that they will be knocked out) all can play a role. There's a scientific explanation--as there always is for a magic trick.

But I don't believe that those going out are shills who know they are fooling the public. Probably each thinks "It didn't really put me out but I'm the exception--all those other people really went out." Of course while I've had several of Mr. Dillman's senior students try and fail to knock me out, I watched one KO next to a very skeptical opthamologist who said that he was forced to concede that the recipient of a pressure-point knock out did appear to truly faint--that his reactions could not have been faked. This involved a pressure point in the head/neck region however. Most of those knocked out "faint" backwards, which is not a typical reaction.

Originally posted by arnisador

This is not exactly what I'm saying, if by this you mean a charade set up in advance to fool the spectators. I do not believe the person being knocked-out has agreed in advance to take a fall--I believe they fall to avoid embarrassing their instructor, leaving the instructor believing that it worked. It's stage magic in the sense of a hypnotist who works with regular audience members, not in the sense of a magician who works with accomplices planted there.

Again, having watched the performer and the recipient stare at one another for a minute or so for some of these knock-outs, with the performer extending a hand and the recipient intently focusing on it, I can believe that hypnotism and standard psychological/physiological effects of intense concentration, standing still for a lengthy period, the desire not to embarrass others, and of course the power of suggestion (as they're told that they will be knocked out) all can play a role. There's a scientific explanation--as there always is for a magic trick.

But I don't believe that those going out are shills who know they are fooling the public. Probably each thinks "It didn't really put me out but I'm the exception--all those other people really went out." Of course while I've had several of Mr. Dillman's senior students try and fail to knock me out, I watched one KO next to a very skeptical opthamologist who said that he was forced to concede that the recipient of a pressure-point knock out did appear to truly faint--that his reactions could not have been faked. This involved a pressure point in the head/neck region however. Most of those knocked out "faint" backwards, which is not a typical reaction.


these aren't vascular, shockwave or stimulous overload ko.'s (i.e. pain too much)- and they are the only kind that have self defense application.

fainting- yes, it's one of the great mysteries that many a hardcore skeptic is also highly susceptible to the powers of suggestion (hypnotism). of course only possible under controlled environments. means nothing in the street cause it can't be applied when fists and feet are already set in motion to take your head off.


peace,



:asian:

The current (June 2003) issue of Black Belt magazine has an article on the DKI "humane pressure points" and particularly as self-defense for rape scenarios.

Distressingly, an ad for several DKI-related instructors in the same magazine includes the use of pressure points for pleasure and in particular the link www.lovebuttons.com (which goes to the mature site www.onetouchorgasm.com).

One touch orgasm? Gosh, I never learned that one! No wonder my teacher was always smiling.....