Which is worst

[terryl965]

I was ask what is worst a student with a bad attitude or a student with bad techniques and which one would you rather train yourself.
Terry

[Gemini]

Everything starts with attitude.

Re-training a student that may have learned poor techniques requires a ton of patience and a good deal of experience in dealing with such students. I mean, if they get frustrated and walk out the door, no one accomplished anything, right? It never bothered me if working with someone takes a long time. I'll stay with them as long as they need me.

On the other hand, I have very little tolerance (or patience) of someone with a poor attitude. Besides just being miserable to be around, it also spreads throughout the class like a plague. 'Course, that's one reason why I'm not yet a master, nor will I be until I'm confident I can successfully turn around such students.

[jdinca]

Both present unique challenges. I would take both of them on but the one with bad technique would probably be the easier one to fix.

[BrandiJo]

i would want poor tech cus that can be changed with practice and help but an attatude is something the person is totaly responsible for.

[tshadowchaser]

Everything starts with attitude.


agreed one hundred percent
you can work on the tch but the attitude is harder to correct

[Kacey]

Having had both, I would rather have the student with poor technique; as said, poor technique can be changed, and is generally much easier to change than poor attitude (depending on the cause of the attitude, of course). In addition, in my experience, the student with truly poor attitude will leave sooner than other students when not allowed to leak attitude all over class; students with poor technique who continue to come to class are often more motivated to improve and succeed than many other types of students.

[SAVAGE]

Attitude is everything..a poor student with a good attitude is a joy compared to a good student with a bad attitude!

[karatekid1975]

There are two students that I helped couch (higher ranks help teach on occasion). One is no longer there. She had good technique, and I knew it, too. But she had a bad attitiude. She didn't want to try, and had this "whatever (rolled her eyes)" type attitude. She didn't take direction very well (And most who taught her were not mean to her). I couldn't stand teaching her.

Another is still there. He's got bad technique AND a bad attitude. All he likes to do is spar. How he got to the advanced class, I don't know. He either purposely doesn't memorize his forms, or doesn't do them out of spite. It was tip testing tonight. He STILL didn't know his form and he's been in the advanced class LONGER than me (I passed him in rank). And one night, when asked, he flat out refused to warm up the class (the instructor picks someone to do warm-ups).

So, for me, it was a little of both (bad attitude and technique or good technique with bad attitude).

But if I saw someone with bad technique that REALLY worked hard and tried hard with a good attitude, I'd take them over the above any day.

[Zepp]

Terry, is this a trick question? If someone has a bad attitude, why bother training them at all?

If someone want to improve their technique, no matter how bad it is, they're still easier to work with than someone who's going to work against you.

[terryl965]

Terry, is this a trick question? If someone has a bad attitude, why bother training them at all?

If someone want to improve their technique, no matter how bad it is, they're still easier to work with than someone who's going to work against you.

No Zepp not a trick question was ask and just trying to get everybody elses views on this subject.
I have trained people with bad attitudes and was able to change them in time myself not saying everybody but the one guy has been a pleasure once he understood everything.
terry

[IcemanSK]

Hands down. Give a student with a good attitude & poor technique any day.

I once had a student who had great technique but she had no desire whatsoever to train. (I think it was her mom's idea that she trained). It was like pulling teeth to get to put forth effort. During testing, I'd routinely score her: Technique 8. Attitude 3. I'll take the reverse any day. I've had those & they were always a pleasure to work with. Those are folks I want to invest in.

[FearlessFreep]

How do you turn someone from having a bad attitude to having a good one? How do you humble them to make them realize they don't know or can't do it all? How do you teach them to get value and maybe even enjoyment out of the things they want to ski over (like forms and loosening up)?

Terry made the point that he took someone with a bad attitude and they developed a good attitude. Is it possible to do that with any sort of reliability? Turning bad attitude to good like you would turn bad technique to good? Sounds a *lot* harder, especially for people who are mostly martial artists by training and only secondarily teachers; it's easier to train technique then attitude, but can it be done?

[Gemini]

Terry made the point that he took someone with a bad attitude and they developed a good attitude. Is it possible to do that with any sort of reliability? Turning bad attitude to good like you would turn bad technique to good? Sounds a *lot* harder, especially for people who are mostly martial artists by training and only secondarily teachers; it's easier to train technique then attitude, but can it be done?

I've watched my sabumnim do it on several occasions. I can't tell you how, because in no instance did he do it exactly the same way. That's also the point I was making about why he's a master and I'm not. It's very difficult and takes a world of patience and experience. Far beyond what I'm capable of. The only instance that I even come close was somewhat to what karatekid1975 said about sparring. We had one student that just wanted to hurt people. Ya know, show how tough he was. If you asked him to lighten up, he saw it as a sign of weakness and kicked that much harder. I just kept kicking the crap out of him until he finally got the message that sparring isn't fighting. Over time (months), as he became tentative and eased up, so did I. Ding! Give the boy a prize! I've had dogs easier to train. Improving technique is not the same thing as beating up everyone around you.

[karatekid1975]

Gemini, that's exactly how this kid is (He's 16). I almost knocked him out once because he roughed up an 11 year old girl. During sparring class, we were switching partners. I noticed that this girl was hurting a bit after sparring him. I was hoping to get him next time around, and I did. We started sparring, I saw an opening, and did a spinning hook kick (no control on purpose) right to his mellon. He definitely saw stars. Did it change him? Probably not, but I'll do it again ;)

[Sam]

so, for argument's sake, can anyone argue for the poor attitude/good technique as being preferable?

[IcemanSK]

I have an easier time turning folks around in situations when the person doesn't have to be there than when they feeled compelled to be there. I'll give an example. At the place where I work & teach class, there's a teen with an awful attitude. He & I butt heads all the time. He loves basketbal. I know or care little for the sport. He was quite pleased w/ himself that he could beat the other male staff on most days. I noticed that he only dribbled & shot right-handed. Instead of challenging him to a game (he'd beat me easily) I told him he'd never beat a higher caliber of players than the other staff until he figured out what the glaring problem in his game was. I told him I'd give him 3 hours to figure it out. If he didn't, I'd tell the other staff how to shut him down. After the given time he begged me to tell him. So I told him about his need to at least dribble with both hands. That was several months ago. Everytime I see him he initiates a conversation with me about how he's getting better & playing against better players. I've earned his respect in something he esteems.

How that translates w/ students in a MA class when they don't care, I'm not sure. Unless you connect w/ the student w/ something they like outside of my class. Maybe that's the key. Or at least A key.

[evenflow1121]

I think a guy with a bad attitude is worse than one with bad techniques. Supposing that the one with the bad techniques has a positive outlook, then well, if he wants to be there, then it should not be atleast that bad. But if I have to compel someone to be there, that is tougher, cause dont want to be there to begin with. I d take a guy with bad techniques over one with a bad attitude any day.

[karatekid1975]

so, for argument's sake, can anyone argue for the poor attitude/good technique as being preferable?

Perferable? No. I delt with a few with good technique and bad attitude. I'd rather work with someone with bad tech and good attitude. One that's willing work hard, and takes effort in what they are doing.

BUT if I have a chance to change that person with the bad attitude, I would. But THEY have to be willing. If they have a "hard head" you won't change them. They quit, usually. I seen it happen several times in my short MA career (5 years).

I'll use myself as an example. I have good technique. I started to get an ego. It was shot down by my instructor when I got into the advanced class real quick. It took him one try for me. But others, it takes longer ... much longer. Those people are a challenge. But maybe that's what MY challenge is ;)

[evenflow1121]

The problem with the bad attitude issue atleast in my opinion, is that one can not really change anyone. If a person has a bad attitude, then they are just not willing to work or do what they are supposed to do, and not you or me or anyone out there can change them, unless they themselves want to change. In most cases I would rather just tell them, look I dont want to take your money, its obvious you are either not ready for this, or dont care much for it, and I dont really want to waste your time or mine. I know it sounds harsh, but there is a difference with a person that may be somewhat of a nuisance but atleast is willing to give something a try, than someone with a completely terrible attitude that has shut him or herself off what you are teaching.

[Jonathan Randall]

Like most others here, I'd have to go with lack of ability being easier to deal with than a bad attitude. However, the thread is a good reminder not to appreciate those students who, while not being naturals, put in a good effort AND maintain a good attitude.

The teachers I LEAST respect are those who concentrate the majority of their efforts on students who are naturals at the expense of students who work hard but are not athletically gifted.

[Gemini]

The problem with the bad attitude issue atleast in my opinion, is that one can not really change anyone.

At face value, I would agree with you, but let's take that another step. It isn't changing them that brings success. It's changing their outlook. I'm certainly no shrink, but I have observed others accomplish this. A bad attitude is the bi-product of some negative perception. Whether it's on a particular issue, many issues or in general, something's wrong. The positive results I've seen others achieve in dealing with such people wasn't by changing them per say, but rather how they see things. Showing them a different perspective and making them realize the positives that can be gained. Explaining things to them in a way they can understand and accept it. Giving them goals to strive for and a reason they find acceptable to strive for it. If you can accompish this, you succeed, if not, you fail. I know we say things like "To help you in your whole life" as a key selling point of why someone should join a martial art, but when handled by those who really do believe it and are able, it can and does really happen.

[AceHBK]

I agree with everyone here and choose the good attitude/bad technique anyday.

Some say thought that the good tech and bad attitude is ok sometimes depending on the student and seeing what is the root of them having a bad attitude. Some teachers say that the ones with bad attitude's IF u r willing to work with them and know them on a personal level end up becoming your best students.

[evenflow1121]

At face value, I would agree with you, but let's take that another step. It isn't changing them that brings success. It's changing their outlook. I'm certainly no shrink, but I have observed others accomplish this. A bad attitude is the bi-product of some negative perception. Whether it's on a particular issue, many issues or in general, something's wrong. The positive results I've seen others achieve in dealing with such people wasn't by changing them per say, but rather how they see things. Showing them a different perspective and making them realize the positives that can be gained. Explaining things to them in a way they can understand and accept it. Giving them goals to strive for and a reason they find acceptable to strive for it. If you can accompish this, you succeed, if not, you fail. I know we say things like "To help you in your whole life" as a key selling point of why someone should join a martial art, but when handled by those who really do believe it and are able, it can and does really happen.

Though I pray that you are right and I am wrong, I simply have given up on trying to get people to see something when they just dont care for it, as terrible as that may sound.

[terryl965]

Though I pray that you are right and I am wrong, I simply have given up on trying to get people to see something when they just dont care for it, as terrible as that may sound.

I prayer that you are just kidding about giving up on these types of students if anything they need to be reminded about what they arte learning.
Terry

[TigerWoman]

I've seen some students who were perceived that they didn't care, even had a bad attitude but I also saw that they were always there for class. I think they had low self esteem, an older brother and his sister. Maybe it was because they had hand-me down uniforms that were two sizes too small or torn and patched and dirty looking. The girl never had a belt since she lost hers after being that belt for years. I think it was really too small. I saw them on the street one night and realized they were walking home after late practice at night. No, they said they were just walking to a friends house. But the girl piped up, we always have trouble getting home since their father forgot them after work. They actually lived about 20 miles out of town. After talking with them they thought they weren't good at anything. Actually the master treated them like they were invisible. I asked him about them, and he said they were there for free. But still. I know how that feels. But they still came. Never saw their parents, just the grandfather who was cussing them out one night after class. My daughter and I befriended them and worked to help them. They learned. They were always respectful just very quiet. The girl finally tested and got a green belt after five years in. We got them better uniforms. My daughter and I went to a graduation open house for their older sister who was in my daughters class. It was in a shack on bare muddy ground. They lived in an attached miserable trailer. The boy finally tested two more times and got his black belt. No, the master did not forego his testing fees and I didn't think they should be held back any longer. But seeing him get his black belt was reward enough and he changed and became more confident. He was helpful in school and at tournaments. He and his sister also graduated from high school with good grades and I lost track of them, but I think he went on to a tech school. His sister, I think lost the ride to the dojang when he got a job. Sometimes, the attitude is a sign that we can do something for them, even if it is to give them hope. I think I would rather help someone's heart than teach them technique. TW

[Gemini]

Though I pray that you are right and I am wrong, I simply have given up on trying to get people to see something when they just dont care for it, as terrible as that may sound.

Not sure if I'm right or not, but if you read my initial post, you'll see that I'm the last person who's going to be pointing a finger at anyone. You may have tried and given up, which is a sad thing, but I haven't even really attempted it yet, so in my book, you're still ahead of me. Hardly something I'll be putting on my resume any time soon.

[cali_tkdbruin]

I've seen some students who were perceived that they didn't care, even had a bad attitude but I also saw that they were always there for class.
.
.
.
Sometimes, the attitude is a sign that we can do something for them, even if it is to give them hope. I think I would rather help someone's heart than teach them technique. TW
Excellent insight and perspective on the attitude problem we're discussing here. Most of us it seems, myself included, would rather not waste our time with MA students with bad attitudes that we perceive as bad apples or slackers. I guess we don't really consider the excess baggage that some of these kids are carrying with them. I hadn't really looked at it from your point of view until I read your post.

Thanks for showing me a different side of why some of these students display the bad 'tude in the dojang. I won't be so dismissive now... :asian:

[hong kong fooey]

I would say the worst would be the bad attitude simply because if your student has a bad attitude it's harder for you to teach them. thats just my opinion maybe im wrong but thats my two sence. now I would rather teach the one with the bad techs because those are easily fixed

[Rich Parsons]

I was ask what is worst a student with a bad attitude or a student with bad techniques and which one would you rather train yourself.
Terry

If Bad Attitude and Student is willing to change then this is not so bad.

If Bad Attitude and stundet is not willing to change and / or is disruptive to the class then this can be very bad.

If Bad Technique and Student nows/learns/understands that it is bad Technique and is willig to practice and learn good technqiue then this is Good.

If Bad Technique and the Student Does not Know and / or does not care and thereby refuses to learn good technique (* For they are right *) then this is bad.

[stone_dragone]

I have to echo many of the thoughts in this thread.

ATTITUDE determines APTITUDE. Unfortunately, perceived aptitude often results in poor attitude. It's these folks that a good teacher needs to be able to identify and help more, so that the increase in one results in an improvement in the other.

My two bits...

[evenflow1121]

One of the most remarkable things about students is that sometimes you get really talented people in the beginning that take their talent for granted, and you get not so talented guys that work their asses off, and they fail exams in the beginning the talented ones pass most of them, but eventually the hard workers surpass the talented ones that dont work as hard in terms of ability. As far as bad attitude you can only do so much, you cant beat it into them, its their choice in the end. Sure you can be a good teacher and a good role model and try your best and your hardest, and you should, to get the student to understand the great benefits that they will attain if they stick with studying an MA, but in the end its always going to be the student's choice. I mean I ve seen guys go to bb and just plain suck and I hate to use that kind of terminology and part of it is the teacher's fault, but not so much for failing to get them to see what they missed on as perhaps for at one point or another not telling them, either train hard or dont waste your time and find something else. Sry to sound so blunt just my two cents on it.

[rmclain]

I was ask what is worst a student with a bad attitude or a student with bad techniques and which one would you rather train yourself.
Terry

Hi Terry,

I won't accept a student at our school that has a bad attitude. If someone developed a bad attitude (which has never happened), I would try to work it out with them and remedy the situation - ultimately in expulsion from the school.

I would rather instruct someone with bad technique and help them improve.

R. McLain

[tkd_jen]

so, for argument's sake, can anyone argue for the poor attitude/good technique as being preferable?

The only way I could use this as being preferable would to be to use the student as an example of how Not to to act. I have seen students like this at our school and our instructor has no problem calling the student (and parents) on their poor attitude. If they have good technique she will tell them "hey you have good technique and a ton of potential, but your attitude is what is holding you back." So she will concentrate on the students that are willing to learn. This reinforces them to display the proper attitude.

[Mr.Rooster]

I'll taek the bad technique person anyday. You can keep or whatever else ya wonna do with the bad attitude person.