When everyone is a Master, no one is...

[Makalakumu]

Technically, when one reaches 4th dan in a Korean Martial Art, they become a Master. I've got some time before that occurs, so I don't have to worry about this too much. However, I recently met a 19 year old 4th dan and called this person Master out of respect. Later, I was struck by the sheer incredulity of it all. There are so many Masters now that the title has lost any meaning. It's like that line in the Incredibles..."when everyone is super, no one is."

I defy that. I will defy that. When everyone is a master, no one is. It is a measure the martial arts community that a person stands out by claiming to be normal.

[terryl965]

I agree I only obtain my 4th in TKD so I could go directly to the Kukkiwon for certification, it took me 21 years between test. I agree with all of this I have to be a Master, who needs all this Master stuff, I believe a Master is one that devotes his life to the Arts.
Terry

[AceHBK]

Technically, when one reaches 4th dan in a Korean Martial Art, they become a Master. I've got some time before that occurs, so I don't have to worry about this too much. However, I recently met a 19 year old 4th dan and called this person Master out of respect. Later, I was struck by the sheer incredulity of it all. There are so many Masters now that the title has lost any meaning. It's like that line in the Incredibles..."when everyone is super, no one is."

I defy that. I will defy that. When everyone is a master, no one is. It is a measure the martial arts community that a person stands out by claiming to be normal.

I have heard that TKD is good for that.
U dont hear about this in other MA's so it strikes me as odd and I see why people talk down TKD so much.

[Flying Crane]

Technically, when one reaches 4th dan in a Korean Martial Art, they become a Master. I've got some time before that occurs, so I don't have to worry about this too much. However, I recently met a 19 year old 4th dan and called this person Master out of respect. Later, I was struck by the sheer incredulity of it all. There are so many Masters now that the title has lost any meaning. It's like that line in the Incredibles..."when everyone is super, no one is."

I defy that. I will defy that. When everyone is a master, no one is. It is a measure the martial arts community that a person stands out by claiming to be normal.

Dude, rank is SOOOO abused in the martial arts. These young, high ranking guys, it is just unbelieveable. Personally, I tend to shy away from the high ranking guys 'cause I figure it is mostly ego and I don't want to deal with it. I question anyone ranked higher than 5th degree, and younger than about 45-50. I just don't think the experience in the art and life can justify the rank, no matter the pure physical skill, talent, or natural ability.

I've said it in a couple of other threads, but I'll put it out there again: I think there should be two levels of Black Belt. First is simply black belt as a non-instructor, and second would be blackbelt instructor. Instructor level could be given immediately, or later, or never, at your instructor's discretion. Once you are an instructor, that should be it. No fancy titles, no other ranks. At this point If you still need the carrot of further rank dangled in front of your face to motivate your training, then you don't deserve the rank that you have. Once you are an instructor, then you can promote all the way to that same rank. end of story. Of course there is always more to learn, and you know who is better and more knowledgeable than you, but further rank is just sort of pointless.

Just adding my two cents on this.

[Makalakumu]

I think about the company I'd keep by becoming a master. I would be really proud to call some my peers, but mostly disappointed by the sea of normalcy hiding behind the title.

[MSUTKD]

What is worse? People who claim high rank, say 10th Dan or the founder of a style. Pure BS. My teacher always told me that rank means nothing, you have to make it mean something.

ron

[jdinca]

Sorry, I wouldn't call a 19 year old master. I would, in my mind at least, question how a 19 year old could achieve a 4th degree in the first place.

I don't think there should be two different types of BB. I do think that a BB should signify a high level of skill in the subject, the presence of the martial arts skills other than the physical, AND the ability to teach the subject. With that group the belt DOES mean something. For the others, I can't argue the position that a BB, or any belt, doesn't really mean anything.

[Flying Crane]

Sorry, I wouldn't call a 19 year old master. I would, in my mind at least, question how a 19 year old could achieve a 4th degree in the first place.

I don't think there should be two different types of BB. I do think that a BB should signify a high level of skill in the subject, the presence of the martial arts skills other than the physical, AND the ability to teach the subject. With that group the belt DOES mean something. For the others, I can't argue the position that a BB, or any belt, doesn't really mean anything.

I agree with your first statement 100%.

Regarding your second statement, I am assuming you are aiming that at my suggestion of Non-instructor and Instructor level of blackbelt. I was just looking for a way to eliminate all the messy dan ranks and what they imply with teaching authority. Some schools say you have to be X Dan (maybe 3rd or 4th) to run your own school, but can assist at Brown Belt, or 1st - 2nd black, but even as an instructor can only promote up to one, or two levels below you before appealing to a higher authority, etc. This just seems very messy to me. I say, acknowledge skill with a basic Black Belt, non-instructor. When your instructor feels you are capable as an instructor yourself, whenever that may be, then you become ranked as Black Belt, Instructor. Then we put an end to all the special considerations and limitations.

Rank no longer becomes an issue down the road. Is there more to learn? of course. Are there others with more skill and knowledge? of course. Keep up with your own training and learning, but eliminate all this ranking nonsense.

These are just my thoughts. I think we have allowed rank issues to become too complicated. Once upon a time, this was not the case. You were either a student, or you were a teacher. When you were given a teaching license, that was the end of it (but not the end of your own training and growth, of course). I think this simplicity is better and less confusing.

I could see a lot of resistance to this idea from those who claim high rank, and especially those who like to be in control. To adopt a system like this, they would have to give up the "prestige" of their high rank, and would also have to give up much control over their martial arts empires. They no longer get to have much say over the ranking of their student's students, and such, but would rather have to trust that they granted their own students the Instructor ranking for good reason, and this next generation will also exercise good judgement in their own teaching and rankings. I don't expect many people to actually do this. It goes against human nature. It would be a breath of fresh air, however.

personally, if I ever start to teach, this is how I will do it.

[evenflow1121]

Honestly, today, I think rank is abused in just about all martial arts, not just Korean. I mean all you need is to start your own organization, pull ten ranks out of your behind, automatic grandmaster.

[jdinca]

I agree with your first statement 100%.

Regarding your second statement, I am assuming you are aiming that at my suggestion of Non-instructor and Instructor level of blackbelt. I was just looking for a way to eliminate all the messy dan ranks and what they imply with teaching authority. Some schools say you have to be X Dan (maybe 3rd or 4th) to run your own school, but can assist at Brown Belt, or 1st - 2nd black, but even as an instructor can only promote up to one, or two levels below you before appealing to a higher authority, etc. This just seems very messy to me. I say, acknowledge skill with a basic Black Belt, non-instructor. When your instructor feels you are capable as an instructor yourself, whenever that may be, then you become ranked as Black Belt, Instructor. Then we put an end to all the special considerations and limitations.

Rank no longer becomes an issue down the road. Is there more to learn? of course. Are there others with more skill and knowledge? of course. Keep up with your own training and learning, but eliminate all this ranking nonsense.

These are just my thoughts. I think we have allowed rank issues to become too complicated. Once upon a time, this was not the case. You were either a student, or you were a teacher. When you were given a teaching license, that was the end of it (but not the end of your own training and growth, of course). I think this simplicity is better and less confusing.

I could see a lot of resistance to this idea from those who claim high rank, and especially those who like to be in control. To adopt a system like this, they would have to give up the "prestige" of their high rank, and would also have to give up much control over their martial arts empires. They no longer get to have much say over the ranking of their student's students, and such, but would rather have to trust that they granted their own students the Instructor ranking for good reason, and this next generation will also exercise good judgement in their own teaching and rankings. I don't expect many people to actually do this. It goes against human nature. It would be a breath of fresh air, however.

personally, if I ever start to teach, this is how I will do it.
I agree it's a mess, the question is what to do about it? Rank is not going to go away. It has proven too valuable to most schools as a motivator, especially in our instant gratification society.

As for teaching, it's another messy situation. What it takes to be a teacher is different from school to school, system to system. That's not going to change either. In our school, you can become an instructor at Blue Belt. You won't be teaching anybody higher than an advanced orange belt and you have to have successfully completed an instructor trainee program that can last up to several years, depending on a number of variables. It's an extremely organized, rigorous process but it means that by the time you've achieved your BB, you already have several years of teaching experience. This is quite different from the school where a blue belt may be told, "you know, I think it's time you started assisting me in teaching". Not that that is a bad way to do it but it's different.

Given that we can't change those variables, I think the only way to really address it is to have a standard concept of what a BB means. I think that that is where the rub is. Now, get everybody on board to agree to a standard...

[Flying Crane]

I agree it's a mess, the question is what to do about it? Rank is not going to go away. It has proven too valuable to most schools as a motivator, especially in our instant gratification society.

As for teaching, it's another messy situation. What it takes to be a teacher is different from school to school, system to system. That's not going to change either. In our school, you can become an instructor at Blue Belt. You won't be teaching anybody higher than an advanced orange belt and you have to have successfully completed an instructor trainee program that can last up to several years, depending on a number of variables. It's an extremely organized, rigorous process but it means that by the time you've achieved your BB, you already have several years of teaching experience. This is quite different from the school where a blue belt may be told, "you know, I think it's time you started assisting me in teaching". Not that that is a bad way to do it but it's different.

Given that we can't change those variables, I think the only way to really address it is to have a standard concept of what a BB means. I think that that is where the rub is. Now, get everybody on board to agree to a standard...

Yeah, you got good points, esp. regarding getting everyone to agree on standards for a black belt. Especially across different styles, this just will never happen.

With regard to your system of training to become an instructor so that these skills are in place by the time you reach black belt, I say: Great! This is a case where the student could earn their black belt and be given instructor ranking at the same time. They have completed the "formal" system and come up thru the ranks, and they have earned the teaching credential. ideally, they should no longer need the carrot.

But you are also right, regarding our Instant Gratification society. Perhaps the martial arts can be an endeavor where this is not catered to. I bet for those who stick with it, it could be a more positive experience in shaping their life values. Problem for many people is, it becomes more difficult to keep a business alive if you aren't willing to play this game.

As for myself, I can't really see ever owning a formal business as a martial arts teacher. I expect that if I ever begin teaching, it will be in a much more informal environment, and I doubt I would ever have more than a handful of students at a time. This gives me the luxury to do it as I like. Since it will never be my source of financial livlihood, it doesn't matter if people leave to go to a school where they can get all kinds of ranks. I won't offer that, so if that is what they want, they need to go elsewhere and that is OK with me.

Anyhow, I certainly understand why most people would never consider doing what I suggest here. But for those who might consider it, I suspect it could be a good thing in the long run.

[AceHBK]

I agree it's a mess, the question is what to do about it? Rank is not going to go away. It has proven too valuable to most schools as a motivator, especially in our instant gratification society.

As for teaching, it's another messy situation. What it takes to be a teacher is different from school to school, system to system. That's not going to change either. In our school, you can become an instructor at Blue Belt. You won't be teaching anybody higher than an advanced orange belt and you have to have successfully completed an instructor trainee program that can last up to several years, depending on a number of variables. It's an extremely organized, rigorous process but it means that by the time you've achieved your BB, you already have several years of teaching experience. This is quite different from the school where a blue belt may be told, "you know, I think it's time you started assisting me in teaching". Not that that is a bad way to do it but it's different.

Given that we can't change those variables, I think the only way to really address it is to have a standard concept of what a BB means. I think that that is where the rub is. Now, get everybody on board to agree to a standard...

Now I say it depends on the individual and how they were taught and their understanding of MA. I taught maybe 3 classes as a purple belt in my TKD class when my Master was called away on urgent business. I taught a kids class and I taught the adult class.
My master is starting up his own school so I am his highest ranked student. (Now a blue belt as of last week) Of course I ahve them work on basic things but as well I help them imrpove technique. U can be a teach effectively even at a lower belt level. Technique is technique and u know when something is wrong. Now I know alot more cause I had 7-8 months of one on one training before our program had some more adult students. I look at it as fine tuning. I actually like teaching more than anything else now that i have done it. I will say with only yellow and white belt students it isnt hard.

[Andrew Green]

When everyone is a master, no one is.

Which is why we ended up with Grand Masters and Sokes. Give it a few more years and I'm sure there will be Grand-Soke's....

[tradrockrat]

Once you are an instructor, that should be it. No fancy titles, no other ranks. At this point If you still need the carrot of further rank dangled in front of your face to motivate your training, then you don't deserve the rank that you have.

Sums it up perfectly. I can only believe that back when martial arts wasn't a commercial endeavor this was simply how it was done. Train until you're good enough to train others. Master your skills because that's the whole point.

We have a great story in Bando about belts. We don't claim this story to be historically accurate, but rather as a lesson to be learned about Martial Arts.


In the beginning, a student didn't need a belt, but as he trained hard, he burned a lot of weight and needed to keep his pants up. So he would tie a length of rope around his waist. The rope was white. As he continued to train hard, all of the throwing, falling and general rough training would leave grass stains upon his clothes and belt. It was now green. Later, as time passed, more and more sweat and dirt would accumulate upon the rope, turning it brown. It was only after a long time of really hard training that the students belt would turn a uniform black from all of the hard work put into his training. Usually by this time yeasrs had passed and the student had become a proficient practitioner, but of course some students would be better than others. However, by the time their belt was black, they had earned the respect of their fellow students and learned enough to help their teacher spread the knowledge of their art. They were now known as teachers.

We used the story as a way of explaining the importance of focusing on effort as opposed to aquiring rank. I would usually finish with, "cause if you really need a blackbelt all you have to do is buy one at the store ...or roll around in the mud."

[jdinca]

But you are also right, regarding our Instant Gratification society. Perhaps the martial arts can be an endeavor where this is not catered to. I bet for those who stick with it, it could be a more positive experience in shaping their life values. Problem for many people is, it becomes more difficult to keep a business alive if you aren't willing to play this game.

Ahh, but many in MA do do that. We suck 'em in and they begin the "Great Belt Race". But as they advance, the goal may still be the BB but the emphasis turns to the journey and the nonphysical aspects, as well as the physical. In other words, "making it a more positive experience in shaping their life values". They quite often don't figure this out until it's too late and their value system has already been changed. :)

Once a BB, hopefully, this lesson has been learned and applied. At our school, we make a big deal out of "Belt Presentations". Until you're a BB, that is. When a BB earns another degree, there's no fanfair, no ceremony, it just happens. They come in one day and there's another stripe on their belt. A very close friend of mine was awarded her 5th degree a couple of months ago and is now a Master in our system. Something we take quite seriously. Not many in the school know. The instructors didn't know for weeks, until word of mouth got it around.

[jdinca]

Now I say it depends on the individual and how they were taught and their understanding of MA. I taught maybe 3 classes as a purple belt in my TKD class when my Master was called away on urgent business. I taught a kids class and I taught the adult class.
My master is starting up his own school so I am his highest ranked student. (Now a blue belt as of last week) Of course I ahve them work on basic things but as well I help them imrpove technique. U can be a teach effectively even at a lower belt level. Technique is technique and u know when something is wrong. Now I know alot more cause I had 7-8 months of one on one training before our program had some more adult students. I look at it as fine tuning. I actually like teaching more than anything else now that i have done it. I will say with only yellow and white belt students it isnt hard.

I agree completely. It just happens that in our case we've formalized this process. A trainee can start as an orange belt but all they'll be doing is observing or making small corrections, such as a foot position. This will only be done with white and yellow belts. There are hour requirements as well as belt requirements to move up in the trainee system and be allowed to increase involvemnent in a class. By the time someone earns their instructors red belt, they have several hundred hours assisting as well as a couple of hundred hours of formalized instructor training. This is all in addition to working on their own belt material.

Regardless of how an instructor is trained, it's the individual and what they bring to the table that is the most important aspect.

[Flying Crane]

When a BB earns another degree, there's no fanfair, no ceremony, it just happens. They come in one day and there's another stripe on their belt.

Well, I'd say that's a step in the right direction.

True, in the beginning the lower ranks can be worthwhile as a motivator, and I have not suggested removing those ranks.

[AceHBK]

I agree completely. It just happens that in our case we've formalized this process. A trainee can start as an orange belt but all they'll be doing is observing or making small corrections, such as a foot position. This will only be done with white and yellow belts. There are hour requirements as well as belt requirements to move up in the trainee system and be allowed to increase involvemnent in a class. By the time someone earns their instructors red belt, they have several hundred hours assisting as well as a couple of hundred hours of formalized instructor training. This is all in addition to working on their own belt material.

Regardless of how an instructor is trained, it's the individual and what they bring to the table that is the most important aspect.

I understand that and my master says this will help get experience and hours I need. I found that I am picky as hell. I will nit pick like hell. I have learned that teaching a technique is easy but it is the application and getting the fundamentals down along with communicating what u are really trying to get across the student is the hard part. lol.

AND AS SOON AS I TYPED WHAT I SAID EARLIER......
MY MASTER CALLS AND ASKS CAN I TEACH THE KIDS AND ADULT CLASS TONIGHT...LOL!!

I have some things i wanna work on the adult class that I am looking fwd too. Kids class is a whole issue in itself. Teachings kids requires patience.

[Zepp]

I'm glad that I learned Tae Kwon Do under an organization where "master" is an honorary title, granted independently of rank. :boing1:

[TigerWoman]

I guess I was under the impression that a poom couldn't become a 1st dan until 18. Did the Kukkiwon change the rules? Just looked at the site, scroll to the bottom of the page:
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/simsa_eng4.asp?div=5

I couldn't regard an 19 yr. old as a master let alone as a good instructor. Maybe an assistant instructor. Putting in the time as a child does not equate to time in as an adult. I have difficulty with the maturity of some of our 14-15 black belts, sometimes I have to just tell one to go sit down instead of blabbering about how well he does stuff in front of parents who are trying to watch their children in class, and I often have to correct his instruction to another student because it has so little thought behind it.

But "master" rank is supposed to be to the level of having eight or so years under your belt as an apprentice instructor before becoming a school owner and testor of student rank as a master. But how many 19 yr. olds have schools that are up and running? No, they would have to teach still under the auspices of a seasoned older adult and probably also a master at the least. TW

[Xue Sheng]

I guess I was under the impression that a poom couldn't become a 1st dan until 18.

I know I am late to this discussion, but I have a problem with high rank and young age. Back when I took Jujitsu you couldn't even test for black belt until you were 18.

When I took TDK getting a black belt was hard. I think the youngest Black belt was 19, no stripes.

And there is a school in my area, that I will not name, but is the biggest tad school I have ever seen 3 or 4 huge schools. But they guarantee a black belt in a year, how do they do it? It certainly is not superior training.

My TDK teacher got his black belt very young, by Korean standards, in Korea. I believe he was in his early 20s, but he was constantly challenged, even after he arrived in North America. He proved he was worthy of his rank.

But a 19-year-old master all I can say is he should be happy he's not in East Asia.

[Rich Parsons]

Technically, when one reaches 4th dan in a Korean Martial Art, they become a Master. I've got some time before that occurs, so I don't have to worry about this too much. However, I recently met a 19 year old 4th dan and called this person Master out of respect. Later, I was struck by the sheer incredulity of it all. There are so many Masters now that the title has lost any meaning. It's like that line in the Incredibles..."when everyone is super, no one is."

I defy that. I will defy that. When everyone is a master, no one is. It is a measure the martial arts community that a person stands out by claiming to be normal.

As each art has a different way of handling rank, I do not wish to discuss promotions and titles.

As to too much of anything, it does make the value of the item less.

I think once a rank has a title, as the population grows and the exposure grows, then you will see the same geometric expensions. So, this does not suprise me.

The question, one has to really ask, is what is meant by Master? Or even for that matter Black Belt. From one art to another, this varies. Some people have this conception of a Master being all knowing and unable to make mistakes and untouchable. While others think of Master as a rank or step in their training.

Personally I like the ranking system in my Balintawak Training. One teacher, the rest students and if you want find out who is best, you play or in some cases teach others to play.

[Flying Crane]

But a 19-year-old master all I can say is he should be happy he's not in East Asia.

yeah, that would be uncomfortable...

[AdrenalineJunky]

The only thing I was a master of at 19 was "bating" :D

[bignick]

Rank and the time it takes to achieve it is relative. Kyuzo Mifune received his 6th dan from the Kodokan in only 9 years. My instructor has been training in Judo for over 40 years and is only a 4th dan. Stop worrying about it and train has become my philosophy.

[MJS]

Some good points being made here! I've always felt that many of these 'titles' are over used. Seems like people think that if they have a fancy title, people will look at them in some different way. Personally, I could care less about a title or how many stripes they have on their belt. I'm looking at how well they perform the material, how much of an understanding they have of that material, can they teach the material, and can I learn something from them. If they have a fancy title and high rank but can't perform the material, then their actions will speak louder than anything else IMO.

Mike

[Xue Sheng]

yeah, that would be uncomfortable...

I'm still laughing about this, it certainly would be……uncomfortable.


Some good points being made here! I've always felt that many of these 'titles' are over used. Seems like people think that if they have a fancy title, people will look at them in some different way. Personally, I could care less about a title or how many stripes they have on their belt. I'm looking at how well they perform the material, how much of an understanding they have of that material, can they teach the material, and can I learn something from them. If they have a fancy title and high rank but can't perform the material, then their actions will speak louder than anything else IMO.

Mike

This is very true. I know someone who is a brown belt and better than every black belt in the dojo he use to train in. But he trained harder than any one there, he is a police office who, most unfortunately, has had to use what he knows and he has additional training.

He left the school when the sensei retired and sold the school to 2 of his black belts.

And in many Chinese martial arts, there are no belts. So a colored belt may or may not be a judge of someone’s skill.

You are right, in the end it all comes down to what you are truly capable of.

[Kacey]

Technically, when one reaches 4th dan in a Korean Martial Art, they become a Master. I've got some time before that occurs, so I don't have to worry about this too much. However, I recently met a 19 year old 4th dan and called this person Master out of respect. Later, I was struck by the sheer incredulity of it all. There are so many Masters now that the title has lost any meaning. It's like that line in the Incredibles..."when everyone is super, no one is."

Actually, it depends on which federation you belong to (if any). ITF and ITF-style TKD (also called Chang H'on, Blue Cottage, and/or the Chon-ji pattern set) do not consider a practitioner a master until 7th dan. In ITF and related systems, 1st-3rd dan is 'novice', 4th-6th dan is 'expert', and 7-9th dan is 'master', with 9th dan being 'grand master'. As a 4th dan myself (which took me 18 years to reach, having started in 1987), I don't consider myself to be a master, or anywhere near a master... actually, I'm not too sure about the expert part either.:asian:

[Jonathan Randall]

I think about the company I'd keep by becoming a master. I would be really proud to call some my peers, but mostly disappointed by the sea of normalcy hiding behind the title.

I understand your sentiments, but my experience of legitimate TSD masters was that they were highly trained and dedicated experts in their MA. The single master I met (fourth dan) who was in his twenties (LATE 20's, BTW) had studied since before he learned how to read. However, I understand that many McDojangs are awarding high dans and titles to the very young. My first TKD master did not assume the title master until he was a 7th dan, though, and was in his early fifties when he accepted the title. My second, at 6th dan and in his early forties. It depends a lot on WHO is certifiying whom. A Kukkiwon certified 4th dan should be expected to have "mastered" the rudiments of his or her art and a legitimate TSD fourth dan as well.

[Xue Sheng]

I think part of the problem is, and I think this was previously mentioned in this post, is that you have a group of people getting together in an organization to decide at what level they will call someone a master.

Sometimes they are right, others they are wrong, Sometimes they are motivated by making the art better sometimes, most of the time, they are motivated by keeping students and making more money.

Here's a question: When was the last time any martial arts organization decided to raise the belt level before someone was called a master?

Also I do not wish to make light of anyone who is 18, 19, etc. that has a high belt, they very likely worked very hard to get their, and are good representatives of their art. But I still have a problem with even being a black belt before 18, but this could be because of my MA background and the fact that I am WAY past 18.

[Makalakumu]

I started this thread because I'm making a personal choice regarding my martial arts practice. I've been working very hard in order to get ready for my next test and right now things are looking pretty sharp. I could pass the test right now if I could take it. That is why this is on my mind. The option to become a "master" lies in the "not to distant" future...and I don't need to stroke my ego like that. I fact, I think that it might become a detriment because right now at my dojang, if I make a mistake, well, I'm still human. Heck, the other day, one of my students caught me with a right cross that had be sitting on my butt. Think about how everything changes once "the master" gets knocked down. Part of me feels that people who take that step are really setting themselves up. I think that I can be a better teacher and a better martial artists by not claiming to be a "master" of anything. I don't want the baggage.

[Xue Sheng]

Think about how everything changes once "the master" gets knocked down. Part of me feels that people who take that step are really setting themselves up. I think that I can be a better teacher and a better martial artists by not claiming to be a "master" of anything. I don't want the baggage.

Sorry, but you forced the philosophy to come out, you brought this on yourself you know ;^)

"Can you look at a situation without naming it? naming it, making it a word, causes fear." -- Bruce Lee, Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

We are all human, and martial arts masters make mistakes. If you do make one, you could be picked on, especially by other masters or senior students.

If you feel you have trained hard and you feel you can help others in their training, who cares.

I am no master, but I was once showing a junior student, by example, why he should not stand on his tiptoes while doing a front kick. I fell on my butt, he got the idea, I got teased incessantly for about a month and that was the end of it.

Also while working with people in push hands (Tai Chi), I let them gain the advantage many times to give them the idea of what they should be doing. Occasionally they get the advantage on there own, I just tell them that was very good, and keep it up. But they never get that chance again, unless I allow it, I learn from them. But then they find another way to gain the advantage. It happens

In a seminar I attended with Dr Yang he said he was always learning. At that time he had decided to start studying Xingyi.

Just because you are a master does not mean that you have nothing left to learn. If you deserve the rank then you should have the rank.

[AceHBK]

There are a lot of great points made in thsi thread. I agree with a large majority of it. I think 18 and 19 who are 4th Dans and all do not have the maturity of it and that is what alot of us will agree about. I see it as the same as some high school kid wanting to go into the NBA. You have the skill but may not comprehend everything else that encompass it. As you get older you realize that u need the mental part more than the physical casue the physical will go away with time.

I use to be about belt colors and stuff when I first started and now it doesnt mean anything to me. It is all about knowledge and I realize that it will be a lifetime journey so now I am in no rush like I use to be when I first started. That in itself has helped my training a great deal.

Now trying to explain this to someone who is not a MA is very hard to do.
World has become so "belt happy" that is all we see.

[Flying Crane]

But I still have a problem with even being a black belt before 18, but this could be because of my MA background and the fact that I am WAY past 18.


I earned my black belt when I was younger than 18. In retrospect, as I look back I realize it was probably premature. I have spent the next 18 years or so in my training, hoping that I have somehow made up for any deficiencies that I probably had at that time, and have never been ranked above 1st black. One thing that was clear to me at the time was that I was unprepared to be a teacher on my own, so I did not do it. It is really amazing how your point of view changes with a bit of maturity.

I can't imagine how I would feel if I had a 4th black at the age of 19. At the time, I probably would have felt it was appropriate, but now at the age of 34 I would probably feel like I was covering up a fraud.