Roundhouse kicks

[bluemtn]

I have a question or 2 on roundhouses. I've heard 2 arguments from 2 friends of different styles, both with similar claims, but I'm still unsure on which way is best to hold your foot. One says, "kick with the top of your foot," while the other says, "kick with toes flexed (roughly ball of foot)." They both say you'll injure your foot the opposite way. My question is, which is THE best (realisticaly)? I know to do it the way my instructor says, but I'm curious...

[Laborn]

I've never even done a round house with the ball of my foot, i always use the top of my foot.

[terryl965]

The ball of the foot is not a roundhouse it is called a spin kick, a roundhouse is with the instep of the foot.
Terry

[Jonathan Randall]

I have a question or 2 on roundhouses. I've heard 2 arguments from 2 friends of different styles, both with similar claims, but I'm still unsure on which way is best to hold your foot. One says, "kick with the top of your foot," while the other says, "kick with toes flexed (roughly ball of foot)." They both say you'll injure your foot the opposite way. My question is, which is THE best (realisticaly)? I know to do it the way my instructor says, but I'm curious...

It depends where and what you are kicking, IMO. Striking with the ball of the foot gives you more penetration (power) and perpendicular range (possibly enough to go through some blocks), whereas the instep is more forgiving of near misses. Personally, I feel that kicking with the ball is safer, but if i were kicking the thigh, I would use the top of the foot - groin and solar plexus, the ball. I actually consider them separate kicks rather than a different way of doing the same one.

[Marginal]

It depends on what you're trying to accomplish. The ball of the foot's a smaller surface area, and offers superior penetration power. As long as your toes are up and your foot's tensed, you're not in much danger of injuring yourself. If you throw it floppy, you run the risk of messing up your knee as well as your ankle when you hit something solid.

Instep is a broader surface, and it gives you a few inches of extra distance. The downside of a broader surface is that you lose penetration power, and the instep tends to be more sensitive than the ball of the foot. (That can be conditioned tho.)

[Jonathan Randall]

The ball of the foot is not a roundhouse it is called a spin kick, a roundhouse is with the instep of the foot.
Terry

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. Different schools, associations and styles use different names. I've heard both types called completely different names at different schools.

[terryl965]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. Different schools, associations and styles use different names. I've heard both types called completely different names at different schools.

Mr randall I'm talking for me the way I was tought not trying to start conflict but the question is what way for us, so my answer is the way I was tought.
Terry
PS I have heard it called alot of things even a high kick from some.

[Jonathan Randall]

Mr randall I'm talking for me the way I was tought not trying to start conflict but the question is what way for us, so my answer is the way I was tought.
Terry
PS I have heard it called alot of things even a high kick from some.

No problem - and I think it is important that you pointed out that they really are two different kicks. :asian:

[Marginal]

Why is it called a spin kick?

[terryl965]

Marginal the way I was explain it is called a spin kick for the ball of the foot is making contact and you use more of the leg than the hip to turn the kick. Atleast that is what I understand, about the only time I use the Ball of the foot is with a snap kick or a puish kick, to the goin or the stomach.
Terry

[Jonathan Randall]

Why is it called a spin kick?

I believe because it makes a half circle when thrown from the rear leg and the other way is often called a roundhouse to differentiate it. Again, it depends upon the group. My kickboxing coach called it a wheel kick and the instep roundhouse an inverted front kick (which, to complicate things further, refers to a very different kick in many Kenpo schools, IIRC).

[bignick]

Striking with the ball of the foot properly is going to allow for a lot more damage, I don't think that's really arguable. The pressure delivered with the kick will be much greater. Let's say you deliver a force of 200 pounds...now deliver that with the instep and on me thats an area of about 10 sq. in. thats a pressure of 20 lbs/sq. in. If the ball of your foot is about 2 sq. in. and you deliver that force of 200 pounds, the pressure of your strike will be about 100 lbs/sq. in. That's five times the pressure by only changing the positioning of your foot. Obviously, the numbers I presented are not the same for everyone, I'm just guesstimating, but bust out a ruler and measure the striking surfaces and work it out for yourself.

Pressure = Force / Area

[bluemtn]

Ok... This is where I'm getting slightly confused. Spinning kicks/ wheel kicks at my dojang, are where you turn your body around and execute the kick at the finish. Wheel kicks are you spin+ hook kick, and spinning kicks are you spin+ something (i.e. side kick).

[karatekid1975]

A roundhouse kick in our dojang is actually called a turning kick. If you kick with the ball or the instep, it's just a different way to do the same kick. In TSD, we called it a round kick, still the same kick (except we rarely kicked with the instep).

Anyways, for me, it depends what I'm doing. Breaking, ball of the foot. Sparring, instep (for saftey reasons), ect.

Just my experience, tho. Others may differ ;)

[traz]

I'd be weary using the ball of my foot unless I had shoes on. That could just be me though.

I was taught to use the instep anyways

[bignick]

Actually, with shoes, you are better off using the instep probably. Shoes can restrict the flexibility needed to pull the toes back for the proper foot positioning. The shoes also provide the extra protection over the instep that your body naturally lacks.

In some styles, they will kick with the toes, like a spearhand strike, and in others I've seen where they will pull the toes down and kick with the knuckles of the toes...

[Tarot]

I guess I'm the lone person on this one, at both schools I have attended, roundhouse kicks you smack with the top of the foot. Foot is pointed and you hit your target with the top of it. :)

[ajs1976]

Like others have said, I have been taught both kicks and which one you use depends on the application.

I was also told that the ball of the foot was the original way of doing it, and the instep version was developed because it was easier and safer for sparring.

I rarely work on the ball of the foot version. If it comes down to doing the kick with shoes on I would kick with the toes, instep, or shin, depending on how sturdy the shoes are. Even with my wrestling shoes, I think it would be to hard to bend my toes back enought to use the ball.

[Marginal]

Marginal the way I was explain it is called a spin kick for the ball of the foot is making contact and you use more of the leg than the hip to turn the kick. Atleast that is what I understand, about the only time I use the Ball of the foot is with a snap kick or a puish kick, to the goin or the stomach.
Terry

Interesting since the terminology's not too far removed from what we call it, side turning kick. (Which never made a whole lot of sense to me.) Though I don't agree with the more leg aspect though. I've always found that I tend to bounce off boards without cranking the hips.

I mainly use ball of the foot for breaking and during floor drills. Beats conditioning my instep, and I get more bang for the buck (such as it is.) Not as good an idea to throw it on a heavybag vs the instep kick since it's harder on the joints. Since I use it more than the instep, I'm betting it'd be more likely to come out in other situations.

[FearlessFreep]

I've only tried doing the roundhouse using the ball of the feet a few times as it seems to require more precise distance measurement...bu then maybe that's because I don't practice it...

[Gemini]

We call both versions a roundhouse, because your support leg, hip and striking leg use the same motion throughout. the only difference being the striking surface. We did learn a third, using the toes, but we don't practice it as we have no realistic application nor are we conditioned for it. We use primarily the top of the foot and occasionally the ball of the foot, depending on what you're trying to kick. A harder surface may injure the top of your foot, unless you have shoes on in which case this is much more forgiving. The ball is great for barefeet against a hard object, but as I believe Nick mentioned, with shoes on, getting the proper angle may be difficult. I wear softer sole shoes for that reason. (even dress shoes). I've only thrown a roundhouse for effect on one occasion and it was with the ball of my foot.

[Marginal]

I've only tried doing the roundhouse using the ball of the feet a few times as it seems to require more precise distance measurement...bu then maybe that's because I don't practice it...

It does to an extent. You're giving up a little range due to the angle of the foot. If you're not used to the difference, it can take some time to adjust to the shorter distance.

[Gary Crawford]

What a good subject! Without argueing the terminologies of the kicks, I say there are diferent phisics and timing to both kicks. I first leaned it as striking with the ball of my foot,but leaned there are certain advantages/disadvantages to this. First as stated before, the ball is a smaller and harder weapon,but more dificult to be accurate at hitting the target. I have found it most effective as a front leg strike. As a rear leg strike,the phisics of pulling the toes back tends to tighten the anke and shin muscles,thus reducing the whipping action that striking with the top of the foot produces. It also has a tendency(with me at least) to lesson the hip action. Striking with the top of the foot allows more speed(and hip action). The bad thing about it that I have discovered when discussing this with senior practitioners is the price of years and years of striking with the top of the foot is damaged metatarscles( i doubt i spelled that right-muscles on top of foot). I personally know two who have serious permanent painfull conditions they will have to deal with throughout their advanced ages. I, nowdays prefere to use a muay thai type round house that strikes with the lower shins. I produces much more power than both types of roundhouse kicks,but is hard not to telegraph. just my take. I hope this helps.

[Kacey]

Just to add to the confusion (while trying to avoid the terminology debate... but I'll have to use some), I agree with those who say it depends on the application, but not for the reasons already given.

Ball of foot is, relatively speaking, a round tool, while the top of foot/instep is a flat tool. Round tools should be used for flat targets (in this case, generally the front of the body) - so with roundhouse/turning kick, it will generally be below the level of the neck. In addition, using the ball of the foot allows you to slide your striking tool between your opponent's arms, both because it is narrower and because this foot position causes your foot to be perpendicular to your leg - so your leg can come around the other person's guard and you can stick the ball of your foot between them (or under, or behind the rear arm, etc.). Using your instep/top of foot, you'll be kicking your opponent in the arms a lot, and may decide the kick doesn't work.

Using the instep/top of foot extends the reach of your kick, which is quite useful when kicking the head (assuming your rules allow this; mine allow, and encourage, head shots with both hands and feet). In addition, the head (especially the temple, which is a prime target for this kick) is a round target; therefore, it is more appropriate to use a flat tool (instep). Also, a higher target eliminates much of the "getting between the arms" discussed previously as a reason to use ball of foot.

[Laborn]

Ok... This is where I'm getting slightly confused. Spinning kicks/ wheel kicks at my dojang, are where you turn your body around and execute the kick at the finish. Wheel kicks are you spin+ hook kick, and spinning kicks are you spin+ something (i.e. side kick).

Lol from what i know there's 2 ways you can use a roundhouse. Ball of your foot *never done it but i've seen it* And the normal way with the top of the foot hehe.

[bluemtn]

I've done both variations of the roundhouse, and for me it depends on the situation. With the toes pointed up and back (ball of foot), it's kind of difficult unless you've got a lot of practice in for that kick. That's where I see that kick can cause some damage to the kicker- if they don't pull the foot and toes back enough. Same goes for the top of the foot- only difference is the damage to the top, or shin (for some). It's interesting to see the different terms for the same kick.

My next question is, would you rather use the ball of the foot for breaking?

[bignick]

With regards to the roundhouse, I wouldn't let anybody use anything else if I were their teacher.

[jdinca]

I'm in the "depends on the target" crowd. Top of the foot for soft targets (belly, leg), ball of the foot for hard targets (head).

One thing to think about when using the top of the foot is the "bone back nerve centers" that cross the top of the metatarsals. Can be painful if the top of the foot hits a hard target, especially without shoes.

[bignick]

I'm in the "depends on the target" crowd. Top of the foot for soft targets (belly, leg), ball of the foot for hard targets (head).

One thing to think about when using the top of the foot is the "bone back nerve centers" that cross the top of the metatarsals. Can be painful if the top of the foot hits a hard target, especially without shoes.

I do believe that striking with the instep has it purposes and throw the kick quite a bit, but when practicing alone or breaking I use the ball of the foot a lot.

[jdinca]

I do believe that striking with the instep has it purposes and throw the kick quite a bit, but when practicing alone or on any target of substance I use the ball of the foot a lot.

When it comes to using the instep, we must be talking about different kicks. The crescent kick and the instep kick are the only two in our system where the instep would be utilized. Unless you're including a crescent in the roundhouse category? Or are we talking a different kind of roundhouse? The one I know strikes perpendicular to the target.

[bignick]

That's in instep roundhouse:
http://www.khihapkido.com/PG/Lee_Roundhouse.JPG

This is one with the ball of the foot:
http://www.greenlion.com/Abby&Jayne-web.JPG

[Marginal]

When it comes to using the instep, we must be talking about different kicks. The crescent kick and the instep kick are the only two in our system where the instep would be utilized. Unless you're including a crescent in the roundhouse category? Or are we talking a different kind of roundhouse? The one I know strikes perpendicular to the target.Typically instep = top of foot.

[FearlessFreep]

Typically instep = top of foot.

Which confused the heck out of me when I started because I always thought the instep was the arch....

[jdinca]

That's in instep roundhouse:
http://www.khihapkido.com/PG/Lee_Roundhouse.JPG

This is one with the ball of the foot:
http://www.greenlion.com/Abby&Jayne-web.JPG

The one we do is the one depicted in the top of the foot picture, with the heel on the ground. The only difference is top of the foot, the toes are down and ball of the foot, the toes are pulled up.

[jdinca]

Typically instep = top of foot.

Which confused the heck out of me when I started because I always thought the instep was the arch....

Interesting, to me the instep is the inside aspect of the foot and is the surface used in a crescent kick.