Size and Strength

[MJS]

Looking at another thread in this section, the topics of men and women, as well as size and strength differences came up.

While I do realize that size and strength do play their roles, as well as having good technique, it made me think: if all it takes is size and strength, what purpose is a smaller persons training going to benefit? Is a 5'8 person, regardless of male of female, always going to be defeated if that person is taller, heavier, etc.?

I have my own thoughts on this, but would like to hear other opinions first.

Mike

[Henderson]

Size and strength do not matter.

I give the following as an example...My physical stature is 5'10" and 215 lbs. One of my training partners is also 5'10", however he is approx 140 lbs. Despite my 75 lb weight advantage, if my form and technique (Judo) are not correct, I have difficulty throwing Eric because his experience is greater than mine. Conversely, despite my weight advantage, I cannot "muscle" my way out of a throw if Eric's technique is good.

Skill and knowledge are more important, IMHO.

Respects,
Frank

[jdinca]

Looking at another thread in this section, the topics of men and women, as well as size and strength differences came up.

While I do realize that size and strength do play their roles, as well as having good technique, it made me think: if all it takes is size and strength, what purpose is a smaller persons training going to benefit? Is a 5'8 person, regardless of male of female, always going to be defeated if that person is taller, heavier, etc.?

I have my own thoughts on this, but would like to hear other opinions first.

Mike

I think that's one of the beauties of martial arts. Power is generated from speed, timing, and technique, not size and strength. As a result, smaller, weaker people can learn how to effectively defend themselves against a larger, stronger attacker. Not to mention that training involves learning how to take advantage of vulnerable spots that size and strenght can't really protect, i.e., the throat. Be you 100lbs, or 250lbs, a shot to the throat is going to make you stop what you're doing and focus on breathing.

I've had a 5' 4", 115lb 5th degree woman BB hit me much harder than younger, bigger, stronger, less experienced men.

[Grenadier]

When it comes down to it, skill in the martial arts can be thought of as more of an equalizing agent that can go a certain distance. For example, a 120 lb yudansha, versus a 180 lb untrained person, stands a decent chance of doing quite well. However, if you switch that 180 lb person with a 250 lb person who's almost all lean muscle mass, then that could present a problem.

Now, if we look at two people in an even closer ballpark, say a 180 lb well-trained fighter versus a 200 lb average untrained fighter, then I would have to give the nod to the trained fellow, since there's not enough sheer power to overcome the former's skills.

Granted, a 120 lb fighter isn't going to produce as much sheer power as a similarly skilled 180 pounder. However, eventually, you're going to get to a point where you have "enough" power to do the job. Where is that weight level? I really can't answer, since we're all of different shapes and sizes, etc. After all, you could be an amazing specimen like Bruce Lee, and be just about 120 lbs, and still generate obscene amounts of power, or you could be a poorly shaped 200 lb person who doesn't know how to use his body correctly.

I do know, that at my height / weight (around 170 lbs), I have "enough" power to do the job against most folks, and if the strength differential is too much to overcome, then I would have resorted to other tactics.

[splazzatch]

I am 6'5" and 250 pounds...I would say that size and strength are nothing except a use of intimidation....if you are 5'5" 120 pounds and you are intimidated by the size you will loose regardless of your training...but if you are not scared of your attacker you have a much better chance of surviving and winning.


In my training I hate going against people smaller than me because they are usually quicker and usually feel that they need to work harder to beat me as a result they use more power and it hurts :waah:

When I train against people my size (which is not often) I find it to be more of a challenging fight because we have to both think about it and there is less force but still power and control.

I have found that bigger guys have more control because they are used to fighting smaller people that they could hurt.

In the real world against an untrained fighter everyone just needs to incapacitate as quickly as possible :) and go from there...

[Andrew Green]

Size + Strength + Skill + Guts = Your chances of winning when compared to the other guys.

All play a part, and all are important. A smaller, weaker person can overcome those disadvantages with a higher level of skill.

This: "Size and strength do not matter."

Is simply not true. Someone 50lbs lighter then me is going to require a very high skill level over me in order to beat me. Someone 50lbs heavier (of muscle...) is going to give me a hard time even when I have the skill advantage.

[Cirdan]

Well for one thing training MA will increase strenght, stamina, agility etc over time if done correctly.

Size matters, but being big is not always a plus. Strenght definately matters, but with skill the opponent will be put in positions where he is weak and you are strong.

Also, there is not neccecary a need to "defeat" an opponent in order to win. :boxing:

[Marginal]

Looking at another thread in this section, the topics of men and women, as well as size and strength differences came up.

While I do realize that size and strength do play their roles, as well as having good technique, it made me think: if all it takes is size and strength, what purpose is a smaller persons training going to benefit? Is a 5'8 person, regardless of male of female, always going to be defeated if that person is taller, heavier, etc.?
Thing is, small vs big is always, always, always presented with the filter that the smaller guy possess vastly superior skill. Which really makes as much sense as assuming the big guy's always going to be in a wheelchair.

[MJS]

Great replies! Thanks to all that posted!

Size and strength certainly play a role, but IMO, I feel that they are often over rated and looked at as the deciding factor. There were a few things in some of the posts here that caught my eye.


Size and strength do not matter.

I give the following as an example...My physical stature is 5'10" and 215 lbs. One of my training partners is also 5'10", however he is approx 140 lbs. Despite my 75 lb weight advantage, if my form and technique (Judo) are not correct, I have difficulty throwing Eric because his experience is greater than mine. Conversely, despite my weight advantage, I cannot "muscle" my way out of a throw if Eric's technique is good.

Skill and knowledge are more important, IMHO.

Respects,
Frank

I agree with this. Having better technique will IMO make a difference. I out weigh by grappling instructor, but his technique makes up the difference.



Be you 100lbs, or 250lbs, a shot to the throat is going to make you stop what you're doing and focus on breathing.

Agreed! I'm certainly not going to attempt to out power someone who is visibly bigger, stronger, etc., but thats all the more reason to take advantage of those targets that can't be conditioned. Some people may think that an eye shot, throat shot or groin shot are over rated, but those are 3 targets that I wouldn't think twice about going for. Fight stoppers? Maybe, maybe not, but if it buys me some time to a) do a follow up move, or b) get out of the area, I'm certainly not going to pass them up.


I've had a 5' 4", 115lb 5th degree woman BB hit me much harder than younger, bigger, stronger, less experienced men.

Yes, I've seen some women whom, if it was a choice between them or someone else watching my back, I'd rather take them.

[SAVAGE]

I am 6'5" and 250 pounds...I would say that size and strength are nothing except a use of intimidation....if you are 5'5" 120 pounds and you are intimidated by the size you will loose regardless of your training...but if you are not scared of your attacker you have a much better chance of surviving and winning.


In my training I hate going against people smaller than me because they are usually quicker and usually feel that they need to work harder to beat me as a result they use more power and it hurts :waah:

When I train against people my size (which is not often) I find it to be more of a challenging fight because we have to both think about it and there is less force but still power and control.

I have found that bigger guys have more control because they are used to fighting smaller people that they could hurt.

In the real world against an untrained fighter everyone just needs to incapacitate as quickly as possible :) and go from there...

Yeah...the world hasnt been the same for us big guys...since the david and goliath fiasco! Small guys are always trying to bash me in the dojo...its liek a trophy to them!

strength is nice and it plays a big role...listen you can hit a 300 pound gorilla a few times and he may not be phased.....but he needs to hit you once and whoa boy! Now having siad that...strength is nice ...BUT IT IS NOT THE EQUILISER!

Technique, speed and timing is what counts...if that three hundred pound gorrila threw a punch incorrectly....it wouldnt have as much poundage as a punch thrown from a 200 pound practitioner who threw it correctly! And another thing..as we age that strength of youth is gone...how do you explain 80 year old masters..wiping the dojo floor with there much younger opponents!

Strenghth is nice...but technique is more important!

[terryl965]

Well over the year I have given guys with a bigger statue more than enough trouble and vise versus of course. I believe technique if done right it will over come size.
Terry

[Sarah]

Its interesting what the human body is capable of when needed....I have heard of a woman single handedly lifting a car to save her child!

I wouldn’t underestimate anyone when it comes to survival/the survival of loved one! Size/Strength of a person can be very deceiving.

[Bigshadow]

I like to think that size and strength are bonuses if you have them and are doing proper movement and structural alignment. But like a bonus.... Don't count/depend on it! :D

Proper movement and structural alignment are MOST important.

[Sin]

Size is bad...Strength comes with doing the technique over and over again.

[Touch Of Death]

Attitude is Key.
Sean

[Blindside]

In a fight between a good big guy and a good little guy, I'll bet on the good big guy.

Lamont

[SAVAGE]

In a fight between a good big guy and a good little guy, I'll bet on the good big guy.

Lamont

I think that you dont account for speed...as a general rule the smaller guy is faster...and not to mention another variable we dont think of...Luck!

If two good fighters were fighting, I would just be thankfull they are fighting each other and not me!

:D :D :D :D

[Adept]

There should be no reason why the little guy is faster. Muscles generate speed, after all, and so long as one does the correct training, you can still be fast even if you are a 250 pound meat head.

I believe size (as in, good size. Lean muscle, not just a fat couch potato) is a large advantage. Of course, that advantage can be neutralised by skill, but that presumes the bigger guy is less skilled. There is no reason to assume that.

If one guy is bigger, and the other smaller, we should assume that their skill and experience is similar. It's only fair. And in those situations, the big guy has more power and speed at his disposal, more natural armour, a height and reach advantage, as well as a weight advantage. They're not things you can dismiss out of hand with a 'Well, skill is better' because it just doesn't address the issue.

[Cujo]

Skill level is IMHO, the most important factor. However, if two people of equal skill meet but one is much stronger than the other, that may be a problem. I've got 60 pounds on my JJJ instructor, but he will tie me up in a heart beat! I look forward to the day when I can turn the tables on him.:)
Pax
Cujo

[Elhan]

Yet Kung Fu Masters do say at higher levels Chi (ie Focus) entirely replaces strength as a factor for power. Thus wouldn't focus go alongside skill, agility, balance, flexibility, speed, strength, luck etc? I do not believe strength is enough. Someone mentioned people doing amazing things, such as a woman lifting a car, or martial artists to break bricks with their bare hands. This could well be due to an adrenaline rush, or extreme focus. If the notion of Ki/Chi allow a person to unleash such power, why would strength even matter? If you hit hard enough to wound your opponent and weave enough to dodge their blows, why assume that greater strength is still an advantage? Furthermore, if the human body possesses certain in-built weak spots, such as the throat, eyes, nerves etc., and striking them requires extreme skill as opposed to strength, often yielding impressive results, again why would it matter? Nerve strikes used by experienced practitioners have been known to kill in a single shot.

Some martial arts, such as Aikido, completely remove strength as a basis altogether, since they redirect the attack ab initio, and are difficult to reverse. Ones such as the Krav Maga state that it hardly matters at all how big or strong you are, because its techniques are so brutal that your opponent won't even be able to breathe once you're down with them. I am not sure about Aikido, but the Krav Maga is praised for its efficiency.

Confidence is something people often forget. If you lack confidence, you may consequently lack the focus to use your techniques. If a person is intimidated by another's size, and loses their confidence, then yes, they will lose. This is something that must be emphasized during martial arts training. Extreme confidence in oneself and nearly automatic application of techniques, to the point of intuition.

Most women (although they do have a balance/agility/endurance advantage) and a lot of men are naturally less able of building high strength, yet many are able of achieving high focus and technical expertise. As such, it would be odd, and even an insult to our mental power, that by now a powerful non-strength based martial art has not developed.

[Adept]

why assume that greater strength is still an advantage? Furthermore, if the human body possesses certain in-built weak spots, such as the throat, eyes, nerves etc., and striking them requires extreme skill as opposed to strength, often yielding impressive results, again why would it matter?

Because if the practitioners are of equal or similar skill, one can assume that they will have a hard time landing these uber-chi strikes on one anothers vital spots. But the bigger guy is going to be a touch faster, his blows will land that much harder, and he has a bit more natural armour.


Ones such as the Krav Maga state that it hardly matters at all how big or strong you are, because its techniques are so brutal that your opponent won't even be able to breathe once you're down with them. I am not sure about Aikido, but the Krav Maga is praised for its efficiency.

A lot of people claim their art is the be-all and end-all. The bottom line is that it doesn't hurt to be bigger and stronger than your opponent, and it sure does help.


As such, it would be odd, and even an insult to our mental power, that by now a powerful non-strength based martial art has not developed.

So far, no one has been able to really manifest chi in any meaningful way. Especially not in conflict situations. Based on observable data, chi will not make you faster or stronger. Bigger muscles will.

[arnisador]

As a rule, bigger is better in a fight. Yes, there are exceptions, and yes, skill matters, but all things being equal, bigger and stronger will beat shorter and weaker (unless it's a gunfight, where the bigger person is a bigger target!).

[mrhnau]

As a rule, bigger is better in a fight. Yes, there are exceptions, and yes, skill matters, but all things being equal, bigger and stronger will beat shorter and weaker (unless it's a gunfight, where the bigger person is a bigger target!).

Do you think that in general a bigger person can take a bigger punch? Granted, it would not always be the case, but do you think that as a general rule it would be true? If so, don't you think that might have an effect in a fight?

[arnisador]

As a rule, I would say yes, though pain tolerance really is a separate issue. It wouldn't have much effect on a groin shot, but if your punch lands on a pectoral muscle (due to bad luck, let's say), a bigger person will be less affected than a smaller one...including that a bigger person will be less 'rocked' while a smaller one will have his or her balance more affected.

Personally, I think aggressiveness and the will to win makes more difference than just about anything...including training, in many cases.

[Shirt Ripper]

I think that's one of the beauties of martial arts. Power is generated from speed, timing, and technique, not size and strength.

Not strength? What's your definition of power?
Muscular power is the end product of the strength and speed of a movement. P=FxD/T, Power equals force (strength) multiplied by Distance divided by Time (speed).


Bigger muscles will.

Not necessarily, but you've got the right idea. It is not a 1 to 1 relationship, however.

[Jagermeister]

Good point, Shirt Ripper. In terms of striking, power is the only measure that means anything. Not force, work, strength, or speed. Power = work / time. It's displacing the most mass the farthest distance in the shortest amount of time. That is what makes a strike a good one.

To answer the original question, in my opinion, bigger is better, unless speed is too significantly compromised, which would result in an increase in the time component from the above power equation, thereby decreasing power.

Bigger means longer reach, too, which can be helpful.

[jdinca]

Do you think that in general a bigger person can take a bigger punch? Granted, it would not always be the case, but do you think that as a general rule it would be true? If so, don't you think that might have an effect in a fight?

In general, yes. There's more mass to absorb and diffuse the energy from the impact. As usual, there are always exceptions...

[Bigshadow]

Good point, Shirt Ripper. In terms of striking, power is the only measure that means anything. Not force, work, strength, or speed. Power = work / time. It's displacing the most mass the farthest distance in the shortest amount of time. That is what makes a strike a good one.

So... let me see if I have this right... If the opponent affects either the time or the distance, this changes the power of the attacker?

If the above is true, then how much size and strength does it take to affect the time or distance?

[Kenpodoc]

Of course size and strength matter, fortunately they aren't the only things that matter.

Jeff

[jdinca]

Not strength? What's your definition of power?
Muscular power is the end product of the strength and speed of a movement. P=FxD/T, Power equals force (strength) multiplied by Distance divided by Time (speed).
You're right, I should have said not AS important. And, I'm talking about the energy released at impact. Yes, strength adds to power but speed, timing and technique are more important to the typical martial artist. Otherwise, how would you explain the ability of a smaller person to do more damage than someone bigger and stronger, who isn't as fast or doesn't have proper technique?

If a stronger person is tense when they throw the punch, there will be a loss of speed and a resultant loss of power at impact. Granted, the greater mass behind the strike can offset that to a point, but a smaller, weaker person who has timing and and stays relaxed until just before impact will have greater speed with the result being more power at impact. Better technique, more speed. It's a matter of which part of your equation is emphasized to produce the end result. For most martial artists, it's usually the speed quotient that produces the best results.

Example, if two of the same vehicles are run into a wall at different speeds, which one will do the most damage? The faster one because of the greater amount of potential energy released at impact. It wasn't how powerful (hp and torque) the vehicle was, it was the speed it was traveling at. Take two vehicles of different size and run them into the wall at the same speed. The larger vehicle will do more damage because of the greater mass and again, the larger amount of potential energy that is released at impact. Take the smaller car and increase its speed and at some point, it will do the same or a greater amount of damage because speed offset the lack of mass and balanced the equation, even though it may not have been as powerful as the bigger vehicle.

Now equate that to throwing a punch. A bigger(stronger) and smaller(weaker) person can have the same amount of energy at impact, provided the smaller person develops more speed than the bigger stronger one. You're right about strength if timing and technique are used to create more speed from the increased strength. Otherwise, all the stronger person is doing is adding mass to the equation as a result of bigger muscles. As a result, I feel I have to stand by my comment that speed and technique/timing are more important than strength.

I've been hit by big, strong guys who were slow and didn't have good technique. I've been hit by women much smaller than myself who had superb technique and great speed. I'd rather be hit by the big guy.

[Lisa]

:lurk:

Excellent thread. Puts new perspective on training and what to focus on. What I am reading is that it is a whole package kind of thing and to use what you have and to work on what you don't. The variables play such an important role. Never under estimate your opponent because of their size. Ego has a factor in whether size and strength will win over skill too.

My favorite example of this is my daughter sparring with a relative newbie. He took one look at her and thought she wasn't a threat. She quickly put him in her guard and guillotined (sp?) him within seconds of him trying to tackle her. Could she continue to do this now that he has some skill of his own, no, of course not. But my point is never to underestimate your opponent due to their size, some small packages can be deadly, especially if you are not aware of what they can do. :)

[Kenpodoc]

The other thing that has not been addressed is the ability of larger bodies to absorb larger amounts of force. Training and skill can compensate for lack of size but larger bodies can deal and absorb larger amounts of energy. That said, i've seen some skilled small women and men put the hurt on some big cocky guys and always enjoy the show.

Jeff

[Elhan]

The other thing that has not been addressed is the ability of larger bodies to absorb larger amounts of force. Training and skill can compensate for lack of size but larger bodies can deal and absorb larger amounts of energy. That said, i've seen some skilled small women and men put the hurt on some big cocky guys and always enjoy the show.

Jeff
Flexible bodies also absorb energy better though, since they have greater elasticity. Women do tend to be more flexible and have better balance, so they can absorb energy better. And if a man trains in flexibility, he could also become quite lithe. Now I won't dispute that a larger body could do more damage (depending on speed and technique as well), yet absorption, well it depends.

[Elhan]

Now equate that to throwing a punch. A bigger(stronger) and smaller(weaker) person can have the same amount of energy at impact, provided the smaller person develops more speed than the bigger stronger one. You're right about strength if timing and technique are used to create more speed from the increased strength. Otherwise, all the stronger person is doing is adding mass to the equation as a result of bigger muscles. As a result, I feel I have to stand by my comment that speed and technique/timing are more important than strength.

I will agree on that. Timing, speed, technique, focus and confidence are all supremely important, to the point that they could even displace strength. That said, even if one does have a strength advantage, you could always use trickery (distractive strikes and so on) to get them off guard, in sensitive positions, so subterfuge could well be a factor.

[Shirt Ripper]

So... let me see if I have this right... If the opponent affects either the time or the distance, this changes the power of the attacker?

If the above is true, then how much size and strength does it take to affect the time or distance?

I think you are getting a bit too abstract for this specific idea. Your punch and it's mass moved at a specific speep (D/T) with a certain amount of force with be so powerful. Your opponents reactions to your movement prior to recieving the blow will not effect those (beyond perhaps requiring greater length of movements to contact) components of his/her movements.

or were you just sassing?:idunno:

[Elhan]

Because if the practitioners are of equal or similar skill, one can assume that they will have a hard time landing these uber-chi strikes on one anothers vital spots. But the bigger guy is going to be a touch faster, his blows will land that much harder, and he has a bit more natural armour.
Some vital spots are not particularly hard to reach. The body is full of them. Also, bigger means there's more to hit. A small person can duck and weave more. Furthermore, flexible bodies absorb damage quite well, so size is not the only factor when it comes to endurance.




A lot of people claim their art is the be-all and end-all. The bottom line is that it doesn't hurt to be bigger and stronger than your opponent, and it sure does help.
I won't disagree here. Krav Maga is internationally endorsed by many secret agencies and militaries though, so there must be something to it. Strength could help, yet to think that it is of primary importance is to diminish the value of any other factors.



So far, no one has been able to really manifest chi in any meaningful way. Especially not in conflict situations. Based on observable data, chi will not make you faster or stronger. Bigger muscles will.
It depends on what you mean. When I refer to chi, I usually mean focus of mind.

[Kenpodoc]

Flexible bodies also absorb energy better though, since they have greater elasticity. Women do tend to be more flexible and have better balance, so they can absorb energy better. And if a man trains in flexibility, he could also become quite lithe. Now I won't dispute that a larger body could do more damage (depending on speed and technique as well), yet absorption, well it depends.I won't deny the benefits of flexibility and yielding to strikes but very little works like a 12 inch padding of adipose tissue to protect underlying vital organs.

Jeff

[Bigshadow]

or were you just sassing?:idunno:
HAHAHA, it was pretty much!

I was kind of using it to drive home the point that size and strength is meaning-less unless contact is made. I am big guy but I don't rely on my strength or size. Although it is a bonus if I can use. That being said, unless that punch makes contact no matter whether the attacker is big or small, it is point-less wasted energy. I guess being powerful is pointless if it isn't effective. It is like, is noise sound if there is nothing to hear it?

Size and strength doesn't matter unless contact is made (and to further complicate things contact can be shredded "Shock Absorbtion", so even contact can be diffused).

All though, I have a funny little retort to the old phrase "the bigger they are the harder they fall". My 6' 4" father used to say "the smaller they are, the further they fly!" :roflmao:

[Shirt Ripper]

HAHAHA, it was pretty much!

I was kind of using it to drive home the point that size and strength is meaning-less unless contact is made.

Figured it was something like that. Excellent point.



All though, I have a funny little retort to the old phrase "the bigger they are the harder they fall". My 6' 4" father used to say "the smaller they are, the further they fly!" :roflmao:

I like it. And way to use the word "retort."

[Elhan]

I won't deny the benefits of flexibility and yielding to strikes but very little works like a 12 inch padding of adipose tissue to protect underlying vital organs.

Jeff
Aren't there martial arts that focus on directly striking at muscles? :p

[Jagermeister]

HAHAHA, it was pretty much!

I was kind of using it to drive home the point that size and strength is meaning-less unless contact is made. I am big guy but I don't rely on my strength or size. Although it is a bonus if I can use. That being said, unless that punch makes contact no matter whether the attacker is big or small, it is point-less wasted energy. I guess being powerful is pointless if it isn't effective. It is like, is noise sound if there is nothing to hear it?
Yes, I got the sarcasm. And yes, noise is sound, regardless of the audience. So how many irrelevant variables do you want to throw into the mix? I mean, what you are saying about the importance of accuracy is true. However, having said that, a small guy is just as likely to miss as a big guy if all things are equal, so that point is irrelevant. And regarding my previous post, it's all basic physics, for all you doubters out there. Really. I'm not making this stuff up.

A few thoughts:

1. Technique is definitely important. If a blow merely glances off the target, it's obviously not very effective in terms of damage. However, in this discussion there is no reason to assume that the hypothetical smaller person will have better technique than the hypothetical big person.

2. These measures of power etc. are not values placed on a body or a particular fighter, like some sort of potential energy measurement. It is a value placed on a movement, a punch in this instance.

3. The difference between force and power is the time component. This can be likened to the difference between a push and a punch. You're moving the same amount of mass (your opponent's head, for example) the same distance. So the force of each, which can be measured in newtons, is roughly the same. But if we choose to measure the power, the punch displaces, or moves, the mass in a shorter amount of time, thus effecting greater power, which can be measured in watts.

Okay, that's it. I won't bore you any longer with the science stuff.

[Jagermeister]

More food for thought (if you're not already full):

In boxing, who hits harder - the bantamweights or the heavyweights? Why? They both have good technique and speed, right? And what usually happens when a guy fights up a weight class or two?

Enough said.

[Elhan]

More food for thought (if you're not already full):

In boxing, who hits harder - the bantamweights or the heavyweights? Why? They both have good technique and speed, right? And what usually happens when a guy fights up a weight class or two?

Enough said.
Boxing is regulated by a huge amount of rules though. You can't just hit any body part you like. In a fight for survival, I doubt any rules will be of concern to the defendant, so techniques used will be a lot more varied.

[Elhan]

3. The difference between force and power is the time component. This can be likened to the difference between a push and a punch. You're moving the same amount of mass (your opponent's head, for example) the same distance. So the force of each, which can be measured in newtons, is roughly the same. But if we choose to measure the power, the punch displaces, or moves, the mass in a shorter amount of time, thus effecting greater power, which can be measured in watts.
So if a person punched or kicked with greater speed, wouldn't they still be able to generate greater power? Spin kicks are supposedly extremely devastating due to the amount of momentum they generate.

[Jagermeister]

Boxing is regulated by a huge amount of rules though. You can't just hit any body part you like. In a fight for survival, I doubt any rules will be of concern to the defendant, so techniques used will be a lot more varied.

Right, but we're talking about elite fighters, fighting in the same striking-based discipline. Pick another one then. Muay Thai? Same thing. It's the reason we have weight classes. You can't honestly say that it's the rules that dictate that the bigger fighters hit harder.

[FearlessFreep]

One thing that I think often gets lost in the 'speed' debate is that a heavy object has more momentum, which makes it harder to stop and change direction. A big guy can punch or kick just as fast as a little guy, what the big guy cannot do as easily is stop his body momentum once he has committed to a movement.

I saw this in sparring my instructor, who was considerable heavier than me. Occasionally (not often because he was also much more skilled then me) I could use his body weight against him, because he could kick very fast, but if I was there, it took him more energy to overcome his intertia to recover. My son, who was half my weight but closer to my skill level, was much better at using my mass against me by waiting for my attack and evading and counter striking while I fought my inertia to recover. I could kick as fast as him, and when I hit him, it was a lot more powerful then when he hit me, but he got pretty good at hitting me and making me not hit him

[Elhan]

Right, but we're talking about elite fighters, fighting in the same striking-based discipline. Pick another one then. Muay Thai? Same thing. It's the reason we have weight classes. You can't honestly say that it's the rules that dictate that the bigger fighters hit harder.
No, of course not, although I was pointing out that boxing (and all competitive fighting sports) generally are bound by strict rules, which limit what you can do. I don't think martial arts like the Krav Maga split students up by weight, although they don't host competitions and the like.

[FearlessFreep]

Pick another one then. Muay Thai? Same thing. It's the reason we have weight classes. You can't honestly say that it's the rules that dictate that the bigger fighters hit harder.

For what it's worth, my last sparring tournament match I sparred two other men. Weight and age classes were waved because there weren't that many of us. I beat them both. One was a few inches shorter than me but about my weight. One was a good head taller than me and much hevaier. In *both* cases I simply had more skill and experience. Tournaments are one thing but in class I routinely spar people both much larger and smaller than me, it's just a differnent set of challenges; against the big guys, no matter how fast they can throw a kick, you simply don't want to be there, and if you canmanage to not be there, you can do all right

[Elhan]

One thing that I think often gets lost in the 'speed' debate is that a heavy object has more momentum, which makes it harder to stop and change direction. A big guy can punch or kick just as fast as a little guy, what the big guy cannot do as easily is stop his body momentum once he has committed to a movement.
Yep, that's something you could take advantage of. Wing Chun does just that. It relies on you throwing the attacker off balance. The harder they hit, the harder they will fall, because you deflect the blow in a way that you avoid harm, and also pull them down. So yes, they may hit with great force, but you also pull them in a way with that force, often knocking the attacker to the ground or throwing them off guard.

[Jagermeister]

So if a person punched or kicked with greater speed, wouldn't they still be able to generate greater power? Spin kicks are supposedly extremely devastating due to the amount of momentum they generate.

1. How about this for an illustration. Throw a pebble as hard as you can at a house, maybe 50 miles/hour or so. Measure how far the house moves from the foundation. Next, drive a bulldozer into the same house, maybe 1/2 mile/hour. Measure this one as well. Compare, keeping in mind that the pebble was travelling 100 times faster. (Again, please note that speed does not equal power.)

2. Yes, spin kicks can have exceptional rotational power.

[Elhan]

1. How about this for an illustration. Throw a pebble as hard as you can at a house, maybe 50 miles/hour or so. Measure how far the house moves from the foundation. Next, drive a bulldozer into the same house, maybe 1/2 mile/hour. Measure this one as well. Compare, keeping in mind that the pebble was travelling 100 times faster. (Again, please note that speed does not equal power.)
Yet 100 times the speed would not compensate for the massive weight difference between the two. If you threw a rock that was say 20 times the weight of the pebble, wouldn't the pebble still strike with 5 times the power?


2. Yes, spin kicks can have exceptional rotational power.
Hmm damn shame they are dangerous to pull of though.

[FearlessFreep]

Throw a pebble as hard as you can at a house, maybe 50 miles/hour or so. Measure how far the house moves from the foundation. Next, drive a bulldozer into the same house, maybe 1/2 mile/hour. Measure this one as well. Compare, keeping in mind that the pebble was travelling 100 times faster. (Again, please note that speed does not equal power.)

Now stand in front of both and realize that while the bulldozer can move you, it doesn't really hurt you. You can move with the bulldozer so you don't absorb the energy. A 50mph pebble will leave a mark

But very few people are at those extremes either. I think for most it's really 'fast enough for my strength' or 'strong enough for my speed' and it's the balance of that tradeoff that determines success

[Jagermeister]

Yet 100 times the speed would not compensate for the massive weight difference between the two.

LOL. My point exactly. I'm just trying to show that speed, independent of other factors, doesn't mean anything. Power is the measure that is important when talking in terms of damage that can potentially be done by a strike.


If you threw a rock that was say 20 times the weight of the pebble, wouldn't the pebble still strike with 5 times the power?

No. If the pebble and the rock that's 20x heavier travel at the same speed, the rock will be 20 times more powerful. You're joking now.

And if I'm wrong, I'd be delighted to have someone explain to me how it is that bantamweights can actually hit as hard as heavyweights.

[Elhan]

LOL. My point exactly.
Yes, I got that, but you are talking about a weight difference way more than just 100 times.




No. If the pebble and the rock that's 20x heavier travel at the same speed, the rock will be 20 times more powerful. You're joking now.
Yes, if they travel at the same speed. What if the pebble travels faster though, say 40 times faster? 20 times is still a massive difference. Additionally, don't smaller surfaces exert more pressure? Say if a person kicked with a heeled shoe, wouldn't it cause more damage? I know this is slightly different, although if you could say focus all your strength into a single strike with your finger, wouldn't it be far more devastating than a punch or slap?

[Jagermeister]

Yes, if they travel at the same speed. What if the pebble travels faster though, say 40 times faster? 20 times is still a massive difference.
:-offtopic I don't know, I guess in this instance the pebble is more powerful. But these are totally arbitrary numbers that prove nothing as far as striking goes, and this is so off topic it's ridiculous - my fault, I guess. Honestly, though, we could do the calculations, but it would be easier for you to just check out a basic physics book from the library. It can explain this much better than I can.


Additionally, don't smaller surfaces exert more pressure? Say if a person kicked with a heeled shoe, wouldn't it cause more damage? I know this is slightly different, although if you could say focus all your strength into a single strike with your finger, wouldn't it be far more devastating than a punch or slap?
Yes, you're right about this, to an extent. I think it's kind of like hitting with the head of the hammer vs. the side of it. And again, this is way off topic, but the finger isn't strong enough to handle something like that. Instead of the target crumbling under the force of the impact, your finger will. I know there is Iron Palm stuff, but a finger can't safely deliver the same power as a fist. Ever seen anyone break bricks with a finger?

[Elhan]

:-offtopic I don't know, I guess in this instance the pebble is more powerful. But these are totally arbitrary numbers that prove nothing as far as striking goes, and this is so off topic it's ridiculous - my fault, I guess. Honestly, though, we could do the calculations, but it would be easier for you to just check out a basic physics book from the library. It can explain this much better than I can.
Then I shall pursue the matter no further here. :)



Yes, you're right about this, to an extent. I think it's kind of like hitting with the head of the hammer vs. the side of it. And again, this is way off topic, but the finger isn't strong enough to handle something like that. Instead of the target crumbling under the force of the impact, your finger will. I know there is Iron Palm stuff, but a finger can't safely deliver the same power as a fist. Ever seen anyone break bricks with a finger?
Well, the human body is no brick. lol And, indeed there are techniques to strengthen your limbs. Koto Ryu koppojutsu focuses highly on this (or at least traditional methods did). According to sources on it, seasoned practitioners could even make puncture marks on tree trunks (http://www.bujinkanbc.com/Ryuinfo.htm). Pressure points and nerve strikes are considered to be an extremely efficient, albeit difficult to master, technique.

[Shirt Ripper]

2. These measures of power etc. are not values placed on a body or a particular fighter, like some sort of potential energy measurement. It is a value placed on a movement, a punch in this instance.

The movement and body delivering them are connected, however, as it is the body that is moving.

[Jagermeister]

In the figurative sense, you are right. In the physical sense, you are wrong. They are not connected. A body is a tangible thing made up of matter. A movement is not an object that has mass and is not tangible. There is not a connection in terms of physics.

[Rich Parsons]

Not strength? What's your definition of power?
Muscular power is the end product of the strength and speed of a movement. P=FxD/T, Power equals force (strength) multiplied by Distance divided by Time (speed).



Not necessarily, but you've got the right idea. It is not a 1 to 1 relationship, however.


See also Definition of Power:http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuqiYtupDF4EAVnZXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTBxcDI2N21 qBGNvbG8DZQRzZWMDc2MEdnRpZANGNjU0Xzc3/SIG=12fippi4c/EXP=1139542040/**http%3a//education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/power

and of Strength: http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LaSu4Lt.pDIXQBZSdXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTBxZ3Eycmw zBGNvbG8DdwRzZWMDc2MEdnRpZANGNjU0Xzc3/SIG=12iib542v/EXP=1139542155/**http%3a//education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/strength

While I agree that P=FxD/T is true. I look at it from Force equals Mass times Acceleration. or F=MA or FMA for short. ;) Sorry for the last I had to slip that in.

So, given two different opponents their force at impact will be determined by the rate of change of the motion or the acceleration or more specifically the deceleration trauma to the target, combined with the mass of the object striking the target.

Most people who use strength use their arm or upper body/Chect muscle for strength. So for this person, it would be the mass of their arm multipled by the acceleration rate of the strike.

While a person with good technique will have their whole body into the strike with proper hip usage and or alignment. Their force of impact would be the mass of their body times the acceleration rate. This is how smaller people can practice martial arts and be effective.

Now many people get grabbed, and then even if they have strength they try to wrestle the other person and or release or a technique that goes through a body part. Hence your technique or strength is going through the bones of a person. This is hard to fight or over come. Same as if you get on the ground and the big guy lays on you, you have to wiggle and move to breath.

Yet the small person (actually anyone) can execute a release through the thumb and fingers or use their hip combined with their ground technqiue and press the person enough to move and to counter.

So, between to untrained people it comes down to the acceleration, speed as some say, and the mass of the first versus the other opponent. An infinite number of combinations based upon possibilites.

Now if you limit the scope by defining the size (mass) of the person, the acceleration rate and have equal skill levels, one is able to calculate the expected outcome assuming both move at the same time.

F(1)=M(1)*A(1) versus F(2)=M(2)*A(2)

Where F = Force; M = Mass; A = Acceleration

This is where skill level variation comes in to make the formula more complex.

Where S = Skill Level

F(1)={[S(1)*M(1)]*A(1)} versus F(2)={[S(2)*M(2)]*A(2)}

As one can see depending upon the variables this could also be an infinite number of solutions for comparison.

Which brings up as some have mentioned, timing. If you move first and get a good shot, you may not need a second or may be able to get a second shot.

Where R = Reaction

R1(1) = T(1)*F(1) versus R(2) = T(2)*F(2)

This is reaction only. This assumes the same pain tolerance as mentioned by others as well.

Where P = Pain Tolerance

R1(1) = T(1)*F(1)*P(1) versus R(2) = T(2)*F(2)*P(2)

Now the issue for the equation comes down to still needing a fudge factor for random action or favorite techniques, which may or may not be known and prepared for. This fudge factor also includes, what you ate, drank, how much you slept, and everything else you can think of. :)

Where K = Fudge Factor

R(1) = K(1)*T(1)*F(1)*P(1) versus R(2) = K(2)*T(2)*F(2)*P(2)

So, the Size of the person does factor into the equation, yet there are other factors that weigh in as well.

So if we simplify again, by stating same skill level and same pain tolerance, and same timing you are back to the Force. ;)

************************************************** ****

I hope I do not get jumped for the story problem in mathematics. :D

[Jagermeister]

Now we're inventing our own equations? I give up.

[Bigshadow]

One thing that I think often gets lost in the 'speed' debate is that a heavy object has more momentum, which makes it harder to stop and change direction. A big guy can punch or kick just as fast as a little guy, what the big guy cannot do as easily is stop his body momentum once he has committed to a movement.

Actually, once the brain has committed to the movement, you cannot stop or usurp that movement or change plans until the movement has been completed. Once the brain is committed to the movement (punch, kick, slice, picking up a glass of ice tea or :drinkbeer ) you cannot change that action until it is complete.

I think what you were seeing is the person dropping anchor after the move and requires more effort to change directions or movement.

Next time you commit to :drinkbeer, try changing it.... you can't. If you can change it, you were not truly committed in the first place.

[arnisador]

Now we're inventing our own equations?

More like making models than inventing equations, I'd say.

[Elhan]

More like making models than inventing equations, I'd say.
I think he's trying to illustrate a point though. Even if its not entirely scientific, he is attempting to show its a lot more complex than a matter of size/mass, or even speed, skill etc for that matter. Its an entire bevy of factors. Its a good attempt at that. :)

Another thing I wanted to ask. Women supposedly have proportionally longer legs, and are at the most 10-15% smaller in the lower body area than a man of the equivalent size. This size difference is far less significant than that of their upper body. They also have better balance and flexibility. As such, wouldn't it be more sensible for a woman to strengthen her legs and do a martial art with a heavy kick component? In my mind, she could use a distractive blow to one of the weaker body parts of her opponent, and then do a roundhouse kick. She could, of course, focus on grapples, throws, nerve strikes, counter attacks etc, yet prefer kicks as opposed to punches. Additionally, would it not be more sensible for her to attempt to grapple with her legs, since these are her stronger body parts? Strength is a factor in fighting, even if not that great, yet if a woman can use her strength to her advantage I would think she would go for the leg region.

Another question. How did Bruce Lee, at a mere 120 lbs, manage to overpower opponents far larger and sometimes equally skilled to himself? Was it mere adrenaline rushes or what? I have seen documentaries on the man, and they say he was a fighting monster. Apparently he wore himself out eventually as he had too little fat stored in his body, so he was much like a cat...had powerful, short bursts of energy, then needed a rest.

[Rich Parsons]

More like making models than inventing equations, I'd say.

I created nothing, ;) - Just ask an professor in Math or Physics.

I tried to use my knowledge and experience in Martial Art, Engineering, and Computer Science to model, or explain a system.


And yes it is complex.

[Adept]

Another question. How did Bruce Lee, at a mere 120 lbs, manage to overpower opponents far larger and sometimes equally skilled to himself?

Emphasis mine.

Thats the kicker, isn't it? We can't measure skill in an objective way. I don't think Bruce would fare as well today in events like Pride and the UFC as he did back then, because training methods have changed so much.

[FearlessFreep]

I don't think Bruce would fare as well today in events like Pride and the UFC as he did back then, because training methods have changed so much.

Assuming he didn't change to match them

[Elhan]

Emphasis mine.

Thats the kicker, isn't it? We can't measure skill in an objective way. I don't think Bruce would fare as well today in events like Pride and the UFC as he did back then, because training methods have changed so much.
Well some of them were allegedly far better versed in the martial arts than he was, although I do agree that in today's world he may have a harder time since things have changed so much. He'd have to adapt if he lived now to new techniques.

[Elhan]

I don't think Bruce would fare as well today in events like Pride and the UFC as he did back then, because training methods have changed so much.

Assuming he didn't change to match them Exactly. :)

[FearlessFreep]

A few weeks back in the MMA forum, wasn't there discussion about how Roce Gracie beat up guys much bigger than him before there were weight classes in UFC?

[Marginal]

A few weeks back in the MMA forum, wasn't there discussion about how Roce Gracie beat up guys much bigger than him before there were weight classes in UFC?

Well, Royce isn't exactly tiny. He also had a skillset that nobody really knew how to counter at the time.

Stuff like Hackney vs Yarbrogh doesn't really demonstrate much along those lines either. Hackney had some ability, Yarbrogh's chief talent was bodyweight. (Vicious Judu and Sumu practitioner as the announcers proclaimed not withstanding) He mainly lost because he was too heavy to stand back up once he fell down.

[FearlessFreep]

He also had a skillset that nobody really knew how to counter at the time.

That's very true. I week or so back, some on TheDojang was commenting that you see more and more UFC fights staying up because the fighters have gotten better at training takedown defense. I think certain techniques were so dominate at a point because know one knew how to counter them; now people know as the tides shift again

[Rich Parsons]

He also had a skillset that nobody really knew how to counter at the time.

That's very true. I week or so back, some on TheDojang was commenting that you see more and more UFC fights staying up because the fighters have gotten better at training takedown defense. I think certain techniques were so dominate at a point because know one knew how to counter them; now people know as the tides shift again

In the 60's it was Judo and Ju-Jitsu.
In the 70's it moved to Karate and TKD and Full Contact Sparring some point sparring as well.
In the 80's it was the area of Ninja and other specialty arts including a rise of FMA's and blade work.
In the 90's it was MMA on the rise. Which took it back to the ground.

I have a friend who smiles about his training in the 60's through today and how things go in cycles. :D ;) :)

[Elhan]

He also had a skillset that nobody really knew how to counter at the time.

That's very true. I week or so back, some on TheDojang was commenting that you see more and more UFC fights staying up because the fighters have gotten better at training takedown defense. I think certain techniques were so dominate at a point because know one knew how to counter them; now people know as the tides shift again
Which is why one should mix 2 or more martial arts and vary their techniques as much as possible. The more techniques you possess, the more difficult an opponent you will make. I think this is what makes a good martial artist; one who knows how to surprise his/her opponents. If you counter with an Aikido move, and then suddenly use a throw from a completely different style, you will leave your opponent baffled. Also, martial arts with huge move sets also have that advantage to them; namely, that it makes you all the more unpredictable. That said, some techniques are extremely difficult to counter no matter how common they are, and if you get distracted and put off guard by a rather unusual move, you might get completely flattened by a common set of moves.

[jdinca]

1. How about this for an illustration. Throw a pebble as hard as you can at a house, maybe 50 miles/hour or so. Measure how far the house moves from the foundation. Next, drive a bulldozer into the same house, maybe 1/2 mile/hour. Measure this one as well. Compare, keeping in mind that the pebble was travelling 100 times faster. (Again, please note that speed does not equal power.)

It's not strength that makes the difference here, it's the mass of the two objects involved. The same goes for your boxing analogy, the bigger boxers hit harder because there is more mass driving the fist forward. Just think how devastating their punches would be if they were as fast as the bantam weights?

[SAVAGE]

Speed is not acceleration, nor is mass a clearly defined concept here when it comes to a strike or ma action.

Acceleration is a key to the presentation of significant force, while speed is merely a 'measurement' of the rate of motion. I.e., it's not how many feet per second, but how many feet per second per second... which is quite a different animal altogether and which is crucial to understanding such difference if you wish to be truly skilled in applying techniques associated 'beyond' merely hitting someone.

Here's where some heavy learning comes into play, so bear with me:

If you use momentum (a set high rate of speed) to when you try to manuever or strike someone, you have 'committed' and are thus vulnerable. The higher the momentum, the greater the window of vulnerability, and thus the greater the window of opportunity for your adversary. Unfortunately, this is the definition of speed, and it is what so many people end up fixating on.

Then there is the one that tries to muscle their way through actions. This also creates a degree of commitment, but moreso it presents 'tenseness' in your actions that can be exploited by 'change' in your adversary's resistance. In judo, a training concept to resist such habits is referred to as push/pull, in which the two perform pulls and pushes in an attempt to catch their opponent overcommiting through force or 'momentum.'

As to the issue of mass, that's a real tricky one. It's tricky because someone who is strong, or heavy, or big, or tall... can present more mass in their actions. But, the catch word here is, "can." As in the example presented above, strength alone is insufficient to be effective, and presents its own inherent problems. So too does being heavy, big, or tall. It is not as much what someone's 'potential' for presentation of mass, but whether they have sufficient 'skill' to be able to 'utilize' their mass whilst maintaining balance.

What determines whether 'potential' mass can be applied effectively is skill in technique. By applying techniques cleanly, more mass can be applied to your actions without presenting opportunities that your opposition can exploit.

And now, we talk about acceleration. Acceleration, in my opinion, is the lost aspect of many practitioners today. Acceleration is what is the concept to 'generating' an increasing degree of motion, thereby ensuring that the adversary remains incapable of action, timed or reactive. I.e., by accelerating with your strikes, rather than merely reaching a speed and striking the adversary, you prevent the adversary from effectively countering. by accelerating through a throw or takedown, you incrementally increase the rate of speed your opponent is being thrown with, and thus exponentially increasing not merely the effectiveness of the techniques, but the power generated and the damage capable. I.e., instead of reaching a certain speed and maintaining that speed during a technique, you present the same force throughout, which causes an exponential increase in the rate of speed.

White Warlock

[Elhan]

)snip*
Hey that was quite an interesting post. Not sure if its all correct, but it seems to be. :) Quite illuminating.

[Marginal]

That's very true. I week or so back, some on TheDojang was commenting that you see more and more UFC fights staying up because the fighters have gotten better at training takedown defense. I think certain techniques were so dominate at a point because know one knew how to counter them; now people know as the tides shift again

This is getting off topic, but there's also the element of the crowd. People still have an easier time understanding striking, and thusly consider it more exciting. That influences how the fights develop/what skills are valued too.

[SAVAGE]

Hey that was quite an interesting post. Not sure if its all correct, but it seems to be. :) Quite illuminating.

I would love to take the credit..but I am not so eloquent (English is not my first language)...it was written by a co member on another forum!

The infamous White Warlock...he is just a fountain of knowledge!

[Elhan]

I would love to take the credit..but I am not so eloquent (English is not my first language)...it was written by a co member on another forum!

The infamous White Warlock...he is just a fountain of knowledge!
Oh, well thanks for putting the post up anyway :)

[SAVAGE]

No problem...glad you enjoyed it!

[CuongNhuka]

My thoughts.
Mental: 75%
Physical strenght in all it's forms: 5%
Experience (years of training/number of fights): 10%
Martial arts rank and/or number of techniques know: 10%

Do the math from the abouve. Being stronger could help, but haveing the better mental attitude and being smarter then the other is better. So if you think that girls cann't take on boys, your wrong. I've personally seen tiny little girls take one, and then severly beat, guys even bigger then me. And I have the build of a boxer. So figure it out.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John (who has the build of a boxer)

[Elhan]

Something I'd like to ask; do deflective martial arts like Aikido or Wing Chun Kung Fu (its moves focused at attack reversals) have any basis on strength at all? People have agreed that strength is at least a part of the equation, yet these arts actually claim that the harder you hit, the more you are going to get hurt. For instance a powerful punch (whether it be due to technique, speed, strength etc etc) in Wing Chun can be redirected, channeling all the force against the attacker, destabilising them and causing them to fall off balance. Aikido has similar principles. So what bearing does it have on these kind of arts?