Girl wins state title in boys wrestling

[mrhnau]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/02/06/girl.wrestling.champ.ap/

Just thought this was quite interesting. Was suprised at how many girls are actually wrestling now. My hats off to her!

Thoughts? Opinions?

[Lisa]

I think that story is inspirational to all young females who participate in wrestling and in other male dominated sports. Cudos to her for working so hard to achieve her goal!

[mrhnau]

Do you think eventually all sports will become integrated? Should we do away with gender in -all- sports? No longer have female only teams too? Think there will always be a place for single sex sports, either male of female?

I've known a good many girls who could easily compete in most sports, at least in a high school level. Getting to college, it would be a bit difficult. You rarely see females physically develop to the strength levels of males, so sports like Football (aside from some kickers I've seen) would be a difficult sport to integrate. Basketball, at least certain positions, would be excluded. You rarely see a female over 6'6, and even when you do, you don't get the same leaping ability. Even point guards these days are getting around 6'6... granted, some females are great ball handlers, but I wonder how they would fair in an NBA game these days?

Alot of sports have inched towards integration lately... golf and wrestling being the most notable... I can imagine the days of seeing at least certain positions being integrated in pro teams. I do think its kinda cool and interesting to see them compete, but I do wonder what the future would hold...

[michaeledward]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/02/06/girl.wrestling.champ.ap/

Just thought this was quite interesting. Was suprised at how many girls are actually wrestling now. My hats off to her!

Thoughts? Opinions?

While there have been some unfortunate unintended consequences, this is an excellent example of the Federal Government in action.

Prior to 1972, this young lady would not have been allowed to participate in the sport.

No, sports will never be totally integrated. Because equality of opportunity does not equal equality of capability. In this case, the weight category was 103 pounds ... that is a big equalizer in capability. I believe it would be more difficult to find a 170 pound woman to competing favorably against a 170 man.

To ignore the differences in anatomy and physiology is to self-impose prejudice.

[terryl965]

One of my teenager wrestler for the local high school she is about 160 lbs. and won district at that wieght, she is a senior and has been offered scholarships at some of the smaller schools in wrestling and she is probaly going to accept one she said. Came in 5th in state not bad.
All in all I believe woman can be competitive against men in most cases in sports.
I also believe the womans of today are well rounded athlete and have been making great stides over the last twenty years to get to the top of athltics.
Terry

[Makalakumu]

I'm glad this was posted. Sometimes girls can get even weirder then boys with the "touchy feelly" sports. We had two girls on my wrestling team in high school. They were twins and they wrestled at 135. That dynamic duo could really kick butt. I like this girls comment after recieving a bloody nose in the championship match...

"Awesome!"

[Brother John]

GOOD FOR HER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's Great!



Your Brother
John

[Lisa]

I'm glad this was posted. Sometimes girls can get even weirder then boys with the "touchy feelly" sports. We had two girls on my wrestling team in high school. They were twins and they wrestled at 135. That dynamic duo could really kick butt. I like this girls comment after recieving a bloody nose in the championship match...

"Awesome!"

My youngest daughter wanted to give wrestling a try, just for something different from grappling. The city puts out a "leisure guide" where they offer 8 or 10 week courses on all sorts of sports and activities. We found a wrestling program in there but it said if the student was female they had to find their own female partner to sign up. My daughter was absolutely PO'd. She has grappled guys for years and really couldn't understand why it would make a difference. :)

[Eternal Beginner]

I'm glad this was posted. Sometimes girls can get even weirder then boys with the "touchy feelly" sports. We had two girls on my wrestling team in high school. They were twins and they wrestled at 135. That dynamic duo could really kick butt. I like this girls comment after recieving a bloody nose in the championship match...

"Awesome!"

Yes, some girls are just incredible with their attitude.

We have a girl in our BJJ club who also plays hockey and competitive archery and exclusively competes in male divisions for the challenge of it. She used to compete in the female leagues and win consistently but changed over to the male leagues because there was a greater number of competitors and she really wanted to test herself.

I thought it was impressive that the winning wasn't important (which she was guaranteed in the girls divisions because of lack of participation) to her, but the competition and learning opportunity. She also switched to our BJJ club for the same reason. She used to grapple at a considerably smaller club but found winning against the same three kids wasn't enough challenge. She chose to be a small fish in a big pond so that she could grow as a grappler.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think it is great that more girls are competing in the formerly all
male dominated sports like wrestling, hockey, football, etc. My hat
goes out to anyone willing to compete and enjoy their chosen sport.


Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[Eternal Beginner]

I think it is great that more girls are competing in the formerly all
male dominated sports like wrestling, hockey, football, etc. My hat
goes out to anyone willing to compete and enjoy their chosen sport.


Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

I bolded part of your comment because not only are more girls competing but I have noticed an increase in us, um, ahem "older" girls competing as well. I think it is great that women who have never competed before, or even been atheletic at all, are now finding themselves comfortable enough to enter grappling competitions.

I was even at one tournament where they had enough of us "older" women to have a masters division (35+)!!

Hopefully all of us oldsters will keep it up and have a lot of fun doing it! We have a tourney coming up soon and the response from women and girls has been great for such a relatively small city.

[arnisador]

This is a great story. I watched a PBS special last year on a female wrestler and it discussed the difficulties they face, including that where she was (Texas?) she could only compete against the boys up to a certain age (around 12, maybe?), after whcih she could only compete against girls (of which there aren't enough for a league). I don't know what I think--pound-for-pound, boys have more muscle, so it seems unfair...yet, if they choose to compete anyway, I say let them!

[michaeledward]

One of my teenager wrestler for the local high school she is about 160 lbs. and won district at that wieght, she is a senior and has been offered scholarships at some of the smaller schools in wrestling and she is probaly going to accept one she said. Came in 5th in state not bad.
All in all I believe woman can be competitive against men in most cases in sports.
I also believe the womans of today are well rounded athlete and have been making great stides over the last twenty years to get to the top of athltics.
Terry

I stand corrected.

Title IX is a good thing.

[mrhnau]

Title 9 has had some very good aspects, but also some disasterous effects on some colleges... alot of "mens" sports no longer exist because of it. If a school tries to field a football team (around 100 or so players) you have to generate a -bunch- of female sports to compensate... for instance, my school has a womans rugby team but not a guys team. reason? title 9. It just seems odd how its applied... don't get me wrong, I think equality is a great thing, and I applaud the girl who won the state title. Without title 9, things like this would not have happened, so I'm kind of torn...

[green meanie]

Very cool. I'll be taking a copy of the article with me to wrestling practice tonight. I have a couple of girls on our team that I would like to have see it. :)

[Jagermeister]

I had to wrestle a girl once in my first high school tournament. I was so nervous because I felt like there was nothing to gain and a lot to lose. :) I think my teammates had a lot to do with that, though. Luckily for me, she wasn't that good, and I got a pin out of it, but I got so much crap from my coach for working the "high-crotch" on her.

Back to the Alaska 103-lb. champ, I think it's great for the girls out there to be competitive with the guys when, generally speaking, they're naturally at a physical disadvantage. Good for her.

[TheBattousai]

Great to hear the news, I wonder when the next border will be broken.

[Kacey]

I think it is wonderful to see more girls going out for traditionally "male" sports - although I suspect, in the long run, that if the numbers keep increasing, eventually, there will be enough female competitors to form female leagues, which will resegregate the genders again. Still, wider open horizons for all are a good thing!

[Sarah]

Title 9 has had some very good aspects, but also some disasterous effects on some colleges... alot of "mens" sports no longer exist because of it. If a school tries to field a football team (around 100 or so players) you have to generate a -bunch- of female sports to compensate... for instance, my school has a womans rugby team but not a guys team. reason? title 9. It just seems odd how its applied... don't get me wrong, I think equality is a great thing, and I applaud the girl who won the state title. Without title 9, things like this would not have happened, so I'm kind of torn...

Im sorry...could someone explain what Title 9 is??

[Kacey]

No problem - Title IX is the ninth section of the Educational Amendments of 1972, whichrequired equal spending on men's and women's sports, in response to concerns about significant disparities. Look at this link for the text of the amendment.

www.dol.gov/oasam/regs/statutes/titleix.htm

[Sam]

From Wikipedia


Title IX Amendment of the Higher Education Act (formally known as the Patsy T. Mink Equal Opportunity in Education Act) is an Act of Congress passed in 1972 focusing on equality in sports opportunities and called for the increase of college scholarships of women to ensure parity with male athletes. Eventually the law was expanded to prohibit gender discrimination in any United States educational institution.

more here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX)

I think its great, but it sucks for the guys competing against her.

If they win, no doubt people will say, "You beat a girl up, do you feel like a big man now?"
If they lose, people will say, "You lost to a girl?"

It's a lose-lose situation for these boys.

[Sarah]

If they win, no doubt people will say, "You beat a girl up, do you feel like a big man now?"
If they lose, people will say, "You lost to a girl?"

It's a lose-lose situation for these boys.

The only way this attitude will change is by more girls getting out there and competing, and having the support of great guys like the ones here on MT!

[Carol]

I think its great, but it sucks for the guys competing against her.

If they win, no doubt people will say, "You beat a girl up, do you feel like a big man now?"
If they lose, people will say, "You lost to a girl?"

It's a lose-lose situation for these boys.

I disagree. I don't think it's so much a lose-lose, it just underscores the need for good sportsmanship. Good sportsmanship by the people watching a boy and a girl match up...and good sportsmanship for the athletes that compete. Just my opinion, though.

Personally, I'm more of an armchair athlete. I have very little of my own ability, but I love a good competition. Fabiola Da Silva, competing with male inline skaters at earlier X games, was incredible to watch. Many of the reactions were similar to the reactions in the article. They respected her as a strong competitor.

I think there will be more female athletes that can earn their way in to a men's competition in to the future...when that happens, the sport will only benefit

[Adept]

Do you think eventually all sports will become integrated? Should we do away with gender in -all- sports? No longer have female only teams too? Think there will always be a place for single sex sports, either male of female?

No. Without chemical enhancement, females are physically inferior to males, and would suffer from being in the same competitions.

[Cujo]

Great job! I think that if you have the ability and the will to compete, then whether your male or female, go for it.

Pax
Cujo

[Sam]

Without chemical enhancement, females are physically inferior to males, and would suffer from being in the same competitions.

I wouldn't go so far as to say inferior, just better at different things.
Men definitely got it in the overall body strength if thats what you mean, but that's not everything.

Look at the martial arts... If you know the right places to hit, you need hardly any strength at all to be effective.

[Adept]

Look at the martial arts... If you know the right places to hit, you need hardly any strength at all to be effective.

Sure. But when skill is equal, the bigger guy wins. Men have a natural advantage over women in terms of muscle and bone development. They are bigger, stronger, faster, more able to take an impact without being 'hurt', and more aggressive. Can you imagine women playing in the NFL? They'd get crushed.

Even taking the martial arts as an example; you wouldn't put a woman, any woman, in the ring with someone like this (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-boxer27jan27,0,4797801.story?coll=la-home-headlines). Bigger, stronger and faster all count for something, and it would be unfair to expect women to compete against men where the natural advantages of men come in to play. For things like golf, snooker, or other games and sports where being bigger, stronger and faster are all minor considerations, then certainly mixed leagues should be (and I believe for the most part are) accepted.

But it would be unfair to the dedicated female athletes to ask them to compete against people with a natural advantage.

[arnisador]

females are physically inferior to males

That is, shall we say, an overly broad statement.


and would suffer from being in the same competitions.

It depends. If it's a weightlifting competition, yes. It's less clear in rifle, for example.

Also, this is all based on the mean and s.d. of the relevant bell curves...for those women at the top of the curve, competing in mixed-gender events may be a viable option.

[mrhnau]

Even taking the martial arts as an example; you wouldn't put a woman, any woman, in the ring with someone like this (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-boxer27jan27,0,4797801.story?coll=la-home-headlines).

Hardly relevant though... -I'D- not want to be in the ring with someone like that! and I'm a pretty big boy! LOL

[arnisador]

Yeah, I wouldn't put a human in there with him!

[Carol]

Sure. But when skill is equal, the bigger guy wins. Men have a natural advantage over women in terms of muscle and bone development. They are bigger, stronger, faster, more able to take an impact without being 'hurt', and more aggressive. Can you imagine women playing in the NFL? They'd get crushed.

----
it would be unfair to the dedicated female athletes to ask them to compete against people with a natural advantage.

True, the bigger one can win...that is why there are weight classes in matches like wrestling and boxing. A 160 lb wrestler has an advantage over a 115 lb wrestler, regardless of gender.

Can I imagine a woman playing in the NFL? You betcha, and I predict that in my lifetime we will see a woman with a monstrous leg playing as a punter or kicker.

I do agree with you that it is unfair to mandate that women play against men in a variety of sports. But for the women that are the standout exception...the truly gifted females such as Fabiola Da Silva or former IHL goalie Manon Rheaume...if they can demonstrate that they have the desire and the ability to truly compete at the men's level...they deserve to have a chance to do so.

[mrhnau]

Can I imagine a woman playing in the NFL? You betcha, and I predict that in my lifetime we will see a woman with a monstrous leg playing as a punter or kicker.

The NFL comment was interesting... I've heard about female kickers in college football (I think Colorado had a scandal surrounding one a few years back). I've known some girls in college and high school that could have easily competed on a football team in different positions. Some of the skilled positions (running back, wide receiver, etc.) I could easily see some high school teams being able to let gifted women play. My high school (small one at that) had two girls who could easily have competed on our team. Not sure about Division 1 college football though, and unlikely even in division 2.

[Flatlander]

I applaud her effort, and her success.

Regarding the comment upthread that having women compete against men can be a lose-lose for the males, I totally disagree. May the most deserving win, I say. Further, if competing in any sport against someone of any gender, one has the personal responsibility to compete with every available effort, for the purity of the challenge. Should the woman win, she earned it and deserves it, and the man should feel no greater shame than if she was male.

The only shame lies in choosing your opponent. To be the best, one must face any qualified challenger.

[Henderson]

Growing up I played basketball at the park from morning til night. There were always two girls that played with us. Carol and Pam. They were good. And when I say "good", I mean good. Not good for a girl. Just plain good. There was no special dispensation given because they were female. They'd get hammered on just like anyone else. They'd step in to take an offensive foul on the asphalt just like one of the guys. Hell...they were one of the guys! When you lost to them, you didn't "lose to a girl", you just lost to Carol or Pam.

[Jagermeister]

The NFL comment was interesting... I've heard about female kickers in college football (I think Colorado had a scandal surrounding one a few years back). I've known some girls in college and high school that could have easily competed on a football team in different positions. Some of the skilled positions (running back, wide receiver, etc.) I could easily see some high school teams being able to let gifted women play. My high school (small one at that) had two girls who could easily have competed on our team. Not sure about Division 1 college football though, and unlikely even in division 2.

Girls, without performance enhancing drugs or genetic doping, will never be able to play football beyond high school (kickers excepted). They just can't get big enough to bang with those big boys.

A side note: any of you ever hear of that guy that played high school field hockey? HBO Real Sports did a story on him. He was dominant, and you wouldn't have believed how pissed everybody got. The same parents that wanted their daughters to be able to play boys' sports, too. Just plain funny.

[Ping898]

Girls, without performance enhancing drugs or genetic doping, will never be able to play football beyond high school (kickers excepted). They just can't get big enough to bang with those big boys.

You know you really shouldn't make such broad generalizations that are finalized like that. You don't know every girl out there who has ever and will ever be born. There are some small guys out there playing in the NFL, you don't have to be 6'3" 300 lbs to play football. Though 99.9% of girls/women most probably would not be able play competently past H.S. (kicker's excluded), if doesn't mean a hardworking woman who really wanted it and was given a legit chance wouldn't be able to hold her own.

[Sin]

If I were back in High School...Oh to be 16 again....I would so ask her out...

I love women who can fight...

No offence ladies...Not trying to be the sterotypical male here....Just a personal opinion.

[IcemanSK]

I think it's great that girls are excelling in wrestling.

I've often wondered why there are separate gender catagories for some activities (like Billiards & Bowling). I don't consider it a sport unless someone is at least getting punched. (So hockey is usually a sport:) ).
But tell me, why can't women compete equally w/ men in Bowling & Billiards?

[Adept]

But for the women that are the standout exception...the truly gifted females such as Fabiola Da Silva or former IHL goalie Manon Rheaume...if they can demonstrate that they have the desire and the ability to truly compete at the men's level...they deserve to have a chance to do so.

Certainly can't argue with that. If they want to, then let them. I was more referring to official events like the world championships or olympics, and the idea of abolishing seperate gender events for mixed gender ones.

[arnisador]

Girls, without performance enhancing drugs or genetic doping, will never be able to play football beyond high school (kickers excepted). They just can't get big enough to bang with those big boys.

Well, who can argue with logic like that?

From here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball):



The shortest player ever to play in the NBA is Muggsy Bogues (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggsy_Bogues) at 1.60 meters (5 ft 3 in). Some shorter players experience success at professional level. Anthony "Spud" Webb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spud_Webb) was just 5 feet 7 inches (1.70 m) tall, but had a 42-inch (1.07 m) vertical leap, giving him significant height when jumping


From the Muggsy Bogues page:



In 1996, Bogues made a laughingstock out of NBA great Patrick Ewing, when 5'3" Bogues managed to block a shot of 7'0" Ewing.


Then there's Earl Boykins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Boykins), too.

[mrhnau]

Gotta love Spub Web. Won the slam dunk contest one year too LOL. From Wiki, looks like he was slamming before he was 5'!

I will say this though, check out the musculature on those guys legs. Considering that only a handful of women are dunking these days, its unlikely that they will be quite as competative... I wonder how they scale up with regards to quickness?

We had a guy in my school when I grew up, he came from a huge family. He was 6'10 in 8th grade and could not even dunk! The guy could practically reach the rim just from his tip toes, but had no muscle. kinda scary... however, if he ever filled out, watch out!

[arnisador]

I've read a couple of interetsing stories on this recently, including one I mentioned here (http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=3939) from The Chronicle of Higher Education about collegiate women's wrestling. It's growing! Good, I say. My daughter had a great time in BJJ this morning, she says!

[Deaf Smith]

I'm going to speak honestly about women and girls in competition.

There are times for women/girl only competition. This is a matter of pure size and strengh in a very violent sport or competition. I would not ask any woman to fight toe-to-toe with the best UFC fighters (and I sure don't want to try either!)

But there are times I feel there must not be any categories as for sex. Wrestling can be dangerious, but not like many other sports. I feel if they want to get physical, and won't screem of touched in, well, places that normaly you arn't touched excpet in such places as wrestling, then I'm all for it. Even martial arts sparring, where it's not hard full contact, I can see them competing in the same weight division.

Yes some guys will feel their ego hurt if whipped by a woman, but I remember back in college there was a Kim Davis, 2nd dan, in John Chu's East Texas Association. She could whip many a man's ass! Heck, she could whip mine in the first 20 seconds of the match! She was in the Marine Corps Reserve and a electrician by trade. When she ran the class, man she popped the whip and made us go till we were about to drop. And she demoed everything exceptionaly well.

So, yes, there are women and girls who can walk the walk. And I'm all for them.

But, in brutaly rough sports, I say no. And that goes for alot of men and boys to.

Deaf

[Empty Hands]

But, in brutaly rough sports, I say no. And that goes for alot of men and boys to.

Your caveat about men illustrates the problem with your stance. Some men can't handle being in rough sports. So do we ban all men from competing? No, we allow those who demonstrate the desire and ability to do so. Overall, less women may be able to compete with men in these sports, but some will. So, just like the men, those who demonstrate the desire and ability should be allowed to do so. Instituting a general ban based on statistics will do a great disservice to those women who can compete. Open it up, and let anyone step up who can. Anything else is paternalistic and condescending.

[Deaf Smith]

Your caveat about men illustrates the problem with your stance. Some men can't handle being in rough sports. So do we ban all men from competing? No, we allow those who demonstrate the desire and ability to do so. Overall, less women may be able to compete with men in these sports, but some will. So, just like the men, those who demonstrate the desire and ability should be allowed to do so. Instituting a general ban based on statistics will do a great disservice to those women who can compete. Open it up, and let anyone step up who can. Anything else is paternalistic and condescending.

Empty Hands,

UFC ain't wrestling. Yes a few might be foolish to try to fight men in those rings, same weight class, but so far I've never heard of one try. It's not paternalistic either. This is not some big daddy thing.

Nor condescending. It's just facts.

There are tons of activites that women compete on a totaly equal level as men. Even at the Indy, as Danica Patrick shows. Even such contact sports as AKA karate tournaments. But the physical facts just don't go with such contact 'sports' as UFC. All you would end up with is some very injured or dead women just to show they could step in the ring (or by peer pressure forced to try stepping in the ring.) And that would do no one any good.

Deaf

[Empty Hands]

Yes a few might be foolish to try to fight men in those rings, same weight class, but so far I've never heard of one try. It's not paternalistic either. This is not some big daddy thing.

Of course it is. There will always be those more than a few standard deviations away from the mean that can cut it. Judge based on ability, not sex. All of your arguments apply just as well to men that can't cut it, yet we don't prevent men from competing with each other.

In any case, you may not have heard about it, but it is happening (http://www.ilovebonnie.net/tag/mma/).

[mrhnau]

Of course it is. There will always be those more than a few standard deviations away from the mean that can cut it. Judge based on ability, not sex. All of your arguments apply just as well to men that can't cut it, yet we don't prevent men from competing with each other.


I've known a few women that were pretty strong, women I'd not want to tangle with! One girl I dated actually beat up and knocked out a guy that was picking on her boyfriend! (this was in high school!)