Is there a difference between martial artist and martial athlete?

[Makalakumu]

Is there a difference between martial artist and martial athlete? Should there be?

I would consider myself to be a martial artist who is also an athlete, but recently, I've heard some MMA people make this distinction...

[Andrew Green]

Largely I think it is people just trying to distinguish different things that fall under roughly the same name.

Martial artist - Traditional training methods, working form above other things. You learn from a Sifu/Sensei/guru/etc. and are ranked, being the "best" does not neccessarily require being in great shape, just having a lot of experience. (We've all seen some chubby high ranking guys)

Martial Athlete - Trains like a athlete in other sports, weights, supplements, trains for competition settings. Being the best means getting in there and fighting, seeing who wins. You got to be in great shape to be on the top, and you'll get knocked down soon. As you get older, you fall in the ranks as your body starts to loose it's strength.

Personally I'd prefer "Combat Sports" over "Martial Athletics" but not everyone thinks the same, which is a good thing :)

[Flying Crane]

I would suggest that Modern Wushu competitors, if they don't have any focus on actual fighting application, would be Martial Atheletes, but with an artistic flair.

I guess it's not only about whether or not someone can fight, or trains a traditional or modern art. Maybe it's about a focus on competition that makes someone an athlete, but maybe an athlete is still an artist.

Not sure what the answer is to this...

[Brother John]

Yes, I think there is a difference. To me it's a difference in focus.
An athlete is someone who pursues a sporting event. Maybe another connotation is someone who seeks to improve their performance through exercise, diet and conditioning strategies. BUT: These things are NOT crucial or needed in order to be an excellent martial artist! NOR are the needed in order to be able to fight well in either the ring nor the street. They are a decided EDGE, but little more than that........unless taken to a totally unballanced extreme....and anything "out of balance", I believe, is doomed from the start because it can't be sustained over a really long period of ones life. The years in which a person can be Very "Athletic" compared to the rest of our years.... is brief. I have NOTHING against anyone seeing themselves as a martial athlete...wether the first definition or the second. That's their thing. But if they think that their athleticism makes them MORE of a martial artist or BETTER than others....I'd have to disagree.

Myself: I seek the improvement of my body in order to have the best tool to get the job done, so it will do what I require of it in the most effective and efficient way. The first and more dominant means is through skill building. Then comes all the other means of conditioning, which I think need to be in balance. Cardio, Muscular strength, Diet, RECOUPERATION (which most "athletes" overlook or neglect).
Just me thinkin....

Your Brother
John

[Shirt Ripper]

I am a strength athlete. I also train/practice/study in a martial art. I like "combat sports" better as well.

[Brother John]

I guess it's not only about whether or not someone can fight, or trains a traditional or modern art. Maybe it's about a focus on competition that makes someone an athlete, but maybe an athlete is still an artist.

Agreed Bro.
Agreed!

Your Brother
John

[Bigshadow]

Is there a difference between martial artist and martial athlete? Should there be?

I would consider myself to be a martial artist who is also an athlete, but recently, I've heard some MMA people make this distinction...
I believe there is a distinction.

IMHO

Martial Artist - One who trains for self defense, training as a path to guide their life, sometimes spiritual connection (not religious), and trains to survive.

Martial Athlete - One who trains in techniques to be applied to competition, matches, and tournaments. Someone who pulls the safest of techniques from various *martial* arts to be used in a competition. Training is centered around athletic fitness.

[Makalakumu]

I have a hard time making this distinction, because from my point of view, a good martial artist should be in the best athletic shape that they can accomplish. Not everyone can be better then everyone else, be we all can be the best that we can be. This, in my opinion, hints at different gradiations of the term athlete. One only needs to compete with themselves in order to be an athlete, in my opinion.

[BlackCatBonz]

this always leads to an argument as to what the best athletic shape is.
is it someone who can run a marathon?
is it someone who can lift twice their own bodyweight?
do you have to be fast?

what is the ideal and/or minimum level of athleticism that should be required for someone to call themselves a martial artist or athlete?

MMA's are sport.....plain and simple.....i would call those guys athletes. there success is measured in wins and losses. their earnings are measured by their wins and losses.
in order for someone to have high earning potential......they need to be in great physical condition in order to put up with the punishment their bodies receive day in and day out in their training.

Do I consider myself a martial artist? yes. i train for self defense.......but i think the mindset of self defense and physical requirements for self defense are different than that of someone who is a martial athlete.

[Bigshadow]

Not everyone can be better then everyone else, be we all can be the best that we can be.

I definitely agree with that!

[Shirt Ripper]

this always leads to an argument as to what the best athletic shape is.
is it someone who can run a marathon?
is it someone who can lift twice their own bodyweight?
do you have to be fast?

what is the ideal and/or minimum level of athleticism that should be required for someone to call themselves a martial artist or athlete?


It's all relative. Depends on what your doing. Is 35 inch vertical leaping ability going to be terribly advantagious to and aikidoist? Perhaps not. Just as in athletics, in martial arts, "peak conditioning" is defined by the inherent physical requirements of the sport or activity being pursued. The necessary abilities of a football lineman (American) will be distinctly different from that of say, a gymnast or figure skater. Might they have similar qualities? Certainly.

I like bigshadows breakdown a lot, though I would add something specific about the perfecting (with a wide scope definition) the body and its capabilities as the mind, spirit and the body are all part of one functional system in many regards.

[Flying Crane]

this always leads to an argument as to what the best athletic shape is.
is it someone who can run a marathon?
is it someone who can lift twice their own bodyweight?
do you have to be fast?



Once upon a time, three athletes in Hawaii were arguing over who was the best overall athlete: a runner, a swimmer, or a bicyclist. They devised a competition to find out. And the Ironman Triathlon was born...

[SAVAGE]

I would say there is adifference...alot of similarities but a different focus, a different attitude and a different teaching/learning environment!

[BlackCatBonz]

Once upon a time, three athletes in Hawaii were arguing over who was the best overall athlete: a runner, a swimmer, or a bicyclist. They devised a competition to find out. And the Ironman Triathlon was born...

ok......that tests someones endurance.
why dont we get those same guys powerlifting or into a strongman competition.

[MSUTKD]

All martial artists should be in great shape, better than average, especially instructors. Why would a student want to continue in training if they see an instructor who is out of shape? This represents a possible future for them. If the teacher cannot do what they are asking their students to do then, I believe, this is a bit of hypocrisy. Is this a lot of pressure on the teacher? Yes. We should be models for the student. Never stop training. My instructor is now 70 years old and he still has it. I have been with him since he was 46. At 46 he did everything with us. He cannot do “everything” now but he still looks fit and has a sparkle still in his eye. He is a true teacher and mode,l as I hope to be. That being said, all martial artists are athletes. Great question.

ron

[Brother John]

Hmmm....
I don't think that the question was contrasting an "out of shape" martial artist with a martial arts athlete.
No one is trying to argue that it's ok to be a Martial Arts couch potatto.
BUT: Is there a difference between a Martial Artist and a Martial Athlete.

Being in shape or fit and being an "Athlete" is not the same thing at all.
It'd be like comparing a 10 speed to a Harley. Speak to anyone about "Athleticism" and they'll most often think of peak physical cultivation far beyond the needs of mere health maintenance or staying "in shape".

So....MSUTKD..........I don't see what you're getting at.

Your Brother
John

[MJS]

I believe there is a distinction.

IMHO

Martial Artist - One who trains for self defense, training as a path to guide their life, sometimes spiritual connection (not religious), and trains to survive.

Martial Athlete - One who trains in techniques to be applied to competition, matches, and tournaments. Someone who pulls the safest of techniques from various *martial* arts to be used in a competition. Training is centered around athletic fitness.

Great post Dave! This pretty much sums it up IMO. While the Artist should be in fairly good condition, I wouldn't put them in the same category as the Athlete. If we look at the two, I picture someone in MMA competition being more of the Athlete.

Mike

[MSUTKD]

Hmmm....
I don't think that the question was contrasting an "out of shape" martial artist with a martial arts athlete.
No one is trying to argue that it's ok to be a Martial Arts couch potatto.
BUT: Is there a difference between a Martial Artist and a Martial Athlete.

Being in shape or fit and being an "Athlete" is not the same thing at all.
It'd be like comparing a 10 speed to a Harley. Speak to anyone about "Athleticism" and they'll most often think of peak physical cultivation far beyond the needs of mere health maintenance or staying "in shape".

So....MSUTKD..........I don't see what you're getting at.

Your Brother
John

Thanks John,

I should rephrase that, all martial artist “should” be athletes. I do know what athleticism is. The root of all martial arts is with the physical body. What I am trying to say is that we should try to be an athlete. We should accept no less for ourselves. Is there any drawback to this pursuit?

ron

[MJS]

Thanks John,

I should rephrase that, all martial artist “should” be athletes. I do know what athleticism is. The root of all martial arts is with the physical body. What I am trying to say is that we should try to be an athlete. We should accept no less for ourselves. Is there any drawback to this pursuit?

ron

I see what you're saying Ron, and I agree! IMHO, I feel that our overall performance will be enhanced by being in shape. Now, this does not mean that we have to train for 10hrs a day, as we all have jobs that we have to go to, but by eating better, taking at least 3 days a week and devote them to a weight lifting and cardio routine, we would see some improvement not only in the way we perform during training, but in general.

Mike

[MSUTKD]

My point exactly!

ron

[Xibalba]

All martial artists should be in great shape, better than average, especially instructors. Why would a student want to continue in training if they see an instructor who is out of shape? This represents a possible future for them. If the teacher cannot do what they are asking their students to do then, I believe, this is a bit of hypocrisy. Is this a lot of pressure on the teacher? Yes. We should be models for the student. Never stop training. My instructor is now 70 years old and he still has it. I have been with him since he was 46. At 46 he did everything with us. He cannot do “everything” now but he still looks fit and has a sparkle still in his eye. He is a true teacher and mode,l as I hope to be. That being said, all martial artists are athletes. Great question.

ron
Ron - I agree. Although age and other health concerns may limit an instructor's ability to do some of the more "flashy" techniques in their chosen art, I believe that most instructors should lead by example. If I expect my class to do 100 pushups/situps/sidekicks/whatever, I will be right out there doing it with them.

I make it a point to get out there and mix it up with the young 'uns every time I train. I cannot see requiring them to do something that I won't even attempt. Sure, I may hurt more the next day (I don't recover like I did when I was 20!), but they don't need to know that!

Peace,
Mike

PS - Ron, this is Mike from the MSU karate club! It is good to "run into you" in cyberspace! :cheers:

[Bigshadow]

What I am trying to say is that we should try to be an athlete. We should accept no less for ourselves. Is there any drawback to this pursuit?
Only if you want to be an athlete and you are training to be an athlete. The drawback... What happens to old athletes? They lose their competitive edge.

Someone else summed it up best! "You should try to be the best you can possibly be." If you want to be an athlete, go for it. However, I think that is an entirely different mindset, that is short lived.

[Xibalba]

Only if you want to be an athlete and you are training to be an athlete. The drawback... What happens to old athletes? They lose their competitive edge.

Someone else summed it up best! "You should try to be the best you can possibly be." If you want to be an athlete, go for it. However, I think that is an entirely different mindset, that is short lived.

I respectfully disagree regarding that being an athlete is short lived. Granted, old athletes "lose their competitive edge", but I don't think that athletes are necessarily defined by their participation in competition.

When I think of training athletically, I think of general fitness and staying in top shape for whatever one's chosen athletic activity is. When I think of training athletically for martial arts, I think of training in such a way that our bodies are best prepared to execute the techniques of our art. For me, that entails a good base of cardiovascular endurance, coupled with some explosiveness training and moderate strength work. The focus of this athletic training and conditioning is to enhance my technique.

Granted, as I age I am losing my competitive edge (those darn 19 year olds I train with are fast, man!), but I don't think that makes me any less of an athlete.

Another example - I am also a distance runner. I never really had a "competitive edge" in running, and neither do many of the folks I see at races I have been to. But I still would say that they are athletes as long as they are out there putting in the miles and keeping in the best shape that they can.

Peace,
Mike

[Brother John]

Thanks John,
I should rephrase that, all martial artist “should” be athletes. I do know what athleticism is. The root of all martial arts is with the physical body. What I am trying to say is that we should try to be an athlete. We should accept no less for ourselves. Is there any drawback to this pursuit?
ron

Thanks for the clarification on that Ron. It helps me to see that the pages we are reading from is much closer than I had thought it might be.

I suppose it'd be on your own personal concept of what an athlete is. Also: though I myself engage in the sort of extra-curricular "exercise and conditioning" that my brother Mike was talking about, resistance exercise, aerobic, stretching (for me....yoga).
But these aren't essential.
I personally think that if someone trains and trains HARD in their martial art, no other thing need be done. If one puts their heart and soul into it, that is. Half hearted training does NO good. But in my opinion, a martial artist need not engage in anything that is not his 'martial art' to achieve excellence.

The other stuff is sort of extra credit, and also.... my wife likes me to fill out a shirt with some muscle and not some Flubber.
;-)

Your Brother
John

[Bigshadow]

I respectfully disagree regarding that being an athlete is short lived. Granted, old athletes "lose their competitive edge", but I don't think that athletes are necessarily defined by their participation in competition.

I agree that an athlete is NOT defined by their participation in competition but by the way they train is geared toward competition seen by the definition(s) below. Old athletes retire, that is why they are often referred to as "former" or "retired" athlete.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=athlete

ath·lete (http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/abreve.gifthhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.giflhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/emacr.gifthttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gif)
n. A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts.
athlete
n : a person trained to compete in sports

[cali_tkdbruin]

Martial Artist=Traditional Taekwondo (The Old Kwons) Practitioner
Martial Athlete=World Taekwondo Federation affiliated competitor

:rules: