Taekwondo sparring vid.

[Laborn]

Love competiton. lol.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2581051890847500705&q=taekwondo

[Gemini]

Always enjoy those vids. Then when I go home and watch my training vids, it feels like mine are recorded in sloowwww motion. :lol2:

Thanks for the post!

[terryl965]

you just have to love the speed of the youth fighters.
terry

[jdinca]

A question out of ignorance of TKD. Is there any reason why nobody bothered to lift up their arms and guard their heads? The leg speed was impressive but their hands rarely came above belt level.

[The MMA kid!]

A question out of ignorance of TKD. Is there any reason why nobody bothered to lift up their arms and guard their heads? The leg speed was impressive but their hands rarely came above belt level.

because, like i have posted in another thread, it is a bad habit developed from over concentration of the sport aspect of TKD.
it is also the same reason why i hate watching this type of sparring now.
it is also why i will not watch TKD in the olympics
it is also why i got bloody lips during so many crosstraining bouts.
it is also why the TKD fighters that sparred in our school experienced the same if not worse experience i had.
it is also why Olympic TKD has recieved a bad name to many in the martial arts community.

[tshadowchaser]

I love the section where they are shoulder to shoulder and one dose a jump roud house to the head. It may not have taken the opponet out but it was beautifly done.
I agree that sparring with the hands down is why many who do olimpic style TKD may not do well in cross training, its a BAD habit to get into.
Man oh man they have fast feet

[Marginal]

A question out of ignorance of TKD. Is there any reason why nobody bothered to lift up their arms and guard their heads? The leg speed was impressive but their hands rarely came above belt level.

Mainly because the rules are designed to strongly discourage punching. No hand strikes to the face, punches to the body are legal, but rarely scored. Also while some people insist there's no power in those kicks, blocking one with an arm isn't always the best idea.

[The MMA kid!]

Mainly because the rules are designed to strongly discourage punching. No hand strikes to the face, punches to the body are legal, but rarely scored. Also while some people insist there's no power in those kicks, blocking one with an arm isn't always the best idea.

I got first place in a tournament by blocking.

i was sown on points. i keep my hands up, he kicks my elbow, goes down screaming in pain.
I win.
a defensive win. ( i did not elbow intentionally, just the way it happened.)

[FearlessFreep]

I knew a guy who blocked a kick with his arm while sparring and broke his arm

[Marginal]

I knew a guy who blocked a kick with his arm while sparring and broke his arm

Which is why it's not always the best idea. ;)

[Tony]

Both guys had good techniques and speed but I didn't see any hand techniques at all. I know you're not allowed to punch to the head in Taekwondo but it does limit things. The only time the hands came into play was when blocking kicks and using a takedown.

[Damian Mavis]

Those guys were very good, and very good representation of WTF sport style, regardless of the ridiculous hands down fighting style they did a good job of showing the cool aspect of WTF fighting. Very exciting, good speed and good power, amazing footwork. Makes me kind of sad though, guys like that would do really well if they branched out into muay thai or even traditional style TKD (ITF) where they punch to the head and keep their guard up for the most part. Keep in mind I dont mean just show up and fight one of those guys, I mean actually train a new style to mastery and using the speed and power they already have to become champions in another style. But almost ALL martial artist stick to what they know they are good at, they refuse to fall back and learn something new until they are excellent at that too, makes me sad.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Gemini]

A question out of ignorance of TKD. Is there any reason why nobody bothered to lift up their arms and guard their heads? The leg speed was impressive but their hands rarely came above belt level.
Several reasons. Sparring as it's represented though the colored ranks is very different than the level of what you're watching in the vid. Simply put, what works at the lower ranks, doesn't work at that level. Even WTF style is taught with the arms up blocking in the beginning. Why don't we see it at the top level? Because it isn't effective at that level.
Blocking with arms often nets you nothing more than a broken arm. Sparring at that level is an offensive sport. You think offense. If you wait to see what your opponent is going to do, you've already lost. Defense doesn't mean block, it means don't be there.
Your arms are more effective used to as leverage to counter what you're doing with your legs. Watch the vid and pick a multi kick move to try. Try it with your arms high and tight, then loose at your sides. If done correctly, you'll notice the difference in speed, power and range.
To score at that level, you need every advantage you can get. You can't "sorta" be effective. WTF style has dictated what works and what doesn't. Many people make remarks about it because they don't understand what they're watching. Instead of saying "why would they do that?" (a logical question such as you have asked), they say "that's stupid! they don't know what they're doing!". Yea....okay...

[Damian Mavis]

Gemini, correct me if Im mistaken but the main reason that WTF doesnt block is because if I cover my torso with my arms, and you kick them, its a point anyway right?!

Blocking doesn't get you a broken arm.... Ive been blocking full contact TKD kicks for 16 years and full contact muay thai kicks for 5 years, occasionally I get a disabled arm in muay thai but thats why Im supposed to block my torso with my knee.

If punching was a viable way to score or punching was allowed to the head, then those hands would be up, trust me.

My point is, yes what you said about effectiveness at that level and speed and balance was correct but only based on the rule set of sport TKD. But that arm breaking statement was incorrect. WTF often leans toward the propaganda line of "blocking doesnt work". It works fine, but not if blocking doesnt stop a point.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[FearlessFreep]

Gemini, your post begs a question that's been in my mind...or continues a line of thought that's been going for a bit now. That being that to be really good at Olympic sparring develops tactics and techniques that are not very effective anywhere but within the rules Olympic sparring.

The other day in class we were working on some drills that required a very fast snap back on the kick; kick fast, kick up at 45 degrees (roundhouse), slap the target, snap your foot back, and down, fast. Drills like this have been the toughtest for me to adapt to in the new school because in my prior school I was taught to roundhouse kick with the flat, hips fully over, strike perpedicular to the plane ot the target approach, and was taught to drive for six inches of penetration on kicks. This is much more powerful a strike, at a sacrifice of the recovery speed. At least to hear my previos instructor talk about the 45 vs 90 degree kick, and from talking to another adult, who is a BB, after class here. He also was talking about "in a fight, you don't want a fast snap back because it's not very powerful"

I remember before reading posts on this forum about TKD kicking "light" with only surface contact, and at the time I protested the assertion because I had been taught to kick with power and deep penetration and didn't really realize that I was being taught in a way that may or may not be typical for TKD school, but is atypical for what you see in successful WTF sparring matches.

Anyway, in comparing and contrasting and observing, it's starting to seem to me that to be really, really, good at sparring, or WTF sparring at least, requires one to learn tactics and application of techniques that don't really fit into the large context of TKD as a martial art for actual self-defense. I was first taught to treat sparring as just a part of training a larger view of Taekwondo, to practice reacting fast to an opponent with independent thinking and to stay calm and in control, etc... Not to view sparring as a goal or accomplishment in itself. It is seeming to me that such a view precludes me from ever being a realy great WTF sparrer, and I'm ok with that, but I guess I'm a bit discouraged that the rules of WTF sparring encourage a style of competition that is not very good outside of that sport, and tends to give TKD as a whole a less than favorable reputation

[FearlessFreep]

As to the arm thing....as I mentioned I know a guy whos arm was broken blocking a kick, so it does happen, but then I was taught not to try to block a kick with a single arm (use the two arm X bloxk, or get out of the way), but then I was taught to kick for six inches of penetrations into the target so I guess 'full contact' can mean a lot of things...

[Damian Mavis]

Fearless, if you are insinuating that muay thai full contact matches are somehow less full contact than the way you kick..... I dont know what to say to that heh. These guys can kick through baseball bats with thier shin. People die in the ring here. Not sure if this is what you meant, if you did I suggest you learn about muay thai as it will open your eyes.

Ya Ive heard of someone getting their arm broken blocking too, but thats the exception not the rule, same thing happens in muay thai, they go to block the leg kick with the shin and their leg gets broken right in 2 pieces, the only thing from seperating the leg from the body is the muscle and ligaments/skin holding it all together. But again, that is the exception, out of a million blocked leg kicks one goes bad.

Anyway, one arm block, x block, we dont block like that. Watch western kickboxing, the guard is up elbows down at your sides like a boxer, the turning kick comes wailing in and if your blocking you dont move your arm at all, its already there you just tense it up and abosorb it. I do see how an arm could get broken if you are reaching out to block.... but thats how begginers block.... keep arms in, absorb, never reach out, the leg will win if the 2 are rushing towards each other.

Having said all that I agree that getting out of the way is best, blocking in any way is taking punishment and will slow you down or disable you eventually, but that is not possible in full contact ring matches (you know, with a ring and ropes and corners) and in self defence we can only hope we have room to move.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Gemini]

Gemini, correct me if Im mistaken but the main reason that WTF doesnt block is because if I cover my torso with my arms, and you kick them, its a point anyway right?!
Wrong. I have seen it happen, but it's the exception, not the rule.


Blocking doesn't get you a broken arm.... Ive been blocking full contact TKD kicks for 16 years and full contact muay thai kicks for 5 years, occasionally I get a disabled arm in muay thai but thats why Im supposed to block my torso with my knee.
In my last match, I broke my opponents wrist in 2 places, because he blocked. An arm is no match for a leg. If you've never had a broken bone, I'm glad for you, because I hate to see it and even more so, hate to be the cause of it. But don't confuse that with it doesn't happen. It does.


If punching was a viable way to score or punching was allowed to the head, then those hands would be up, trust me.
You're correct. But it's NOT legal. That's the whole point. "If's" aren't relevant. It is what it is and players have adjusted accordingly after learning what works and what doesn't on the mat in their style of competition.


My point is, yes what you said about effectiveness at that level and speed and balance was correct but only based on the rule set of sport TKD.
That's because it's the topic we're discussing. If we were watching a Muay Thai match, I wouldn't have said it because it wouldn't have pertained to that.

Hope that clarifies a bit. :asian:

[Gemini]

Gemini, your post begs a question that's been in my mind...or continues a line of thought that's been going for a bit now. That being that to be really good at Olympic sparring develops tactics and techniques that are not very effective anywhere but within the rules Olympic sparring.
You've brought up a real interesting point here. To be good at WTF style does separate and take away from traditionally taught self defense TKD. If you want to be the best of the best, YES! you will have to learn and practice what on the street would be considered some very bad habits. Though they have many of the same training methods and techniques, there comes a point when the training parts ways. That's why you'll see so many senior members protest it and scream for rule changes, wanting it to more closely resemble our art. You can still be very good at both, but you can never be your best at both. At some point you have to decide, because whichever you're practicing means you're not practicing the other. You're deviding your focus.

[bignick]

Actually, I wasn't really impressed with their attacking methods, they were sacrificing balance and stability, I'd least like to see them stay on their feet while trying to kick.

Punches are a viable way to score in WTF competitions now, and you can ask the guy I TKOed the other day with a punch to the solar plexus about their effectiveness.

[terryl965]

Punches have always been part of WTF TKD just nobody uses them anymoreif you move your opponet or change there direction with a punch to the boy it is a point in WTF TKD.

As far as blocking goes, a kick will always generate more power than a block can and the force can brake bones, we block to advert the opponets direction not to become that direction.

Terry

[Damian Mavis]

Gemini, I think what country you are in will dictate what is legal and what is not. Im in Asia, Ive seen plenty of people block in WTF style and its still counted as a point. Ya I know its supposed to be the same worldwide.... but it is not.

BigNick, same. Over here punching is totally not counted, if you knock him down with a punch to his gut and he doesn't get up... you are given a FOUL! You dont win!

I think you guys are blocking differently like I tried to explain, arm reaching out to meet kick will get broken... but why the frik is that arm reaching out?! Ive been going to tournaments for 15 years, Ive trained in 5 countries... Ive never heard of this arm breaking stuff except for one horror story to scare the kiddies when I was a white belt. Again though, if all WTF'rs when they block are reaching out than I can see why this might be a more than super rare occurence, improper blocking will cause injuries.

Punching to the face IS legal, at least in my federation. Yes I know we are talking about sport style, just reminding you there is a world of fists in the face fun just wating for TKDists to try!

Anyway, I agree with everything, you guys spar a certain way because that is how the sport evolved given your particular rule set, I know this, but..... I do think blocking should be trained more by you guys. Proper safe blocking as a reflex not a "wait and see" which would be too late. I see hundreds of points landed on WTF'rs because their hands are not where I feel they should be. But if the judges are counting blocks as points anyway than what would the point be in changing.

QUESTION ABOUT WTF UNIFORMS: Does the red and black trim around the neck represent junior black belt or NOT? 'Cause here in Asia white belts are wearing those uniforms because they are prettier. Freaks me out and I want to tear their uniform off, but is that just the norm these days?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Laborn]

because, like i have posted in another thread, it is a bad habit developed from over concentration of the sport aspect of TKD.
it is also the same reason why i hate watching this type of sparring now.
it is also why i will not watch TKD in the olympics
it is also why i got bloody lips during so many crosstraining bouts.
it is also why the TKD fighters that sparred in our school experienced the same if not worse experience i had.
it is also why Olympic TKD has recieved a bad name to many in the martial arts community.

Ahhh actually if your quick enough you dont have to block your head, i RARELY get hit in the head, and if i do it was because of my mistake. TKD teaches you how to evade more then block. But I will block if i cant move.

Btw Arm breaks are crazy at tournaments, go to the Junior Olympics, over 20 people got their arms broken, a few dislocations...which is why i prefer to evade.

[Gemini]

QUESTION ABOUT WTF UNIFORMS: Does the red and black trim around the neck represent junior black belt or NOT? 'Cause here in Asia white belts are wearing those uniforms because they are prettier. Freaks me out and I want to tear their uniform off, but is that just the norm these days?
Yes, red and black trim at one time was reserved for a poom (junior black belt), but more schools nowdays issue them for pre-black belts and yes, even sometimes, to everyone just because they're prettier. Colored uniforms are also turning up more and more in an art that used to be exclusively white.

Nick, I've heard from several sources (initially from Terry) that this was going to be the case, but I still haven't seen evidence of it. Maybe on the east coast, they're just slow to recognize the change. Feels kind of strange calling it a change given that's always supposed to have been the rule anyway.

[bignick]

Nick, I've heard from several sources (initially from Terry) that this was going to be the case, but I still haven't seen evidence of it. Maybe on the east coast, they're just slow to recognize the change. Feels kind of strange calling it a change given that's always supposed to have been the rule anyway.

I'm not much into competition but from what I've been hearing from the Jr. Nationals, Nationals, Regionals, etc...is that it is really being enforced...

[Adept]

because, like i have posted in another thread, it is a bad habit developed from over concentration of the sport aspect of TKD.

Quoted for truth.

As far as I'm concerned, tennis is more of a 'combat sport' than the olympic TKD. It's been far too abstracted, and had far too many of TKDs 'other' techniques screened out in the name of diversity and difference. I would be happier if they adopted a ten point must scoring system, and incorporated knees, elbows, basic joint manipulation, and legalised punches to the face and head.

[Shu2jack]

As far as I'm concerned, tennis is more of a 'combat sport' than the olympic TKD. It's been far too abstracted, and had far too many of TKDs 'other' techniques screened out in the name of diversity and difference. I would be happier if they adopted a ten point must scoring system, and incorporated knees, elbows, basic joint manipulation, and legalised punches to the face and head.

Heck, I would be happy if they allowed punches to the head and removed the chest protector.

I bet then competitor's body punches would force a "trembling" shock, and thus be scored, and competitors would be forced to keep their hands up. If nothing else the lack of a chest protector would force competitors to keep their hands up to at least shoulder level. Those kicks hurt when you don't have a body shield.



Yes, red and black trim at one time was reserved for a poom (junior black belt), but more schools nowdays issue them for pre-black belts and yes, even sometimes, to everyone just because they're prettier. Colored uniforms are also turning up more and more in an art that used to be exclusively white.


The ATA uses the red/black trim to show that a black belt is an assistant instructor of some sort. I remember walking into another TKD school and having a number of the black belts looking at me funny. I was a 22 year old wearing junior black belt trim. Always interesting do see the differences between the different styles of TKD.

[FearlessFreep]

I'll be honest, a lot of this is one reason I asked the question last wek about MMA matches for 'old amateurs' like me, simply to test out my TKD (and some BJJ) against a variety of attacks and not be constrained to the TKD rules that tend to impact how 'fighting; is done

[The MMA kid!]

Ahhh actually if your quick enough you dont have to block your head, i RARELY get hit in the head, and if i do it was because of my mistake. TKD teaches you how to evade more then block. But I will block if i cant move.

Btw Arm breaks are crazy at tournaments, go to the Junior Olympics, over 20 people got their arms broken, a few dislocations...which is why i prefer to evade.

really? you can evade a full force punch to the face by an educated, experienced boxer? or another TKD practiconer. there is a difference.

[Laborn]

really? you can evade a full force punch to the face by an educated, experienced boxer? or another TKD practiconer. there is a difference.

Taekwondo teaches me how to evade an attack, there is no dif between evading a kick and a punch. I've been in fights where i've dodged blows, but also took blows, you can never be good enough to dodge every blow.
Some blows i could easily evade from a *boxer* some i cant...can you evade/block every kick i can throw?

Laborm

[Marginal]

Taekwondo teaches me how to evade an attack, there is no dif between evading a kick and a punch.

Except that a correctly thrown and trained punch is way faster, and it doesn't comprimise the puncher's base like a kick does etc.

[Adept]

Indeed. In fact, by the time your eye relays the information to your brain, your brain process that information and sends impulses to your muscles to evade the incoming punch, you'll get tagged by a well thrown punch.

[Damian Mavis]

"Heck, I would be happy if they allowed punches to the head and removed the chest protector."

Ahhhhh, son, sounds like you want to come over to the dark side. There is a fantastical realm were we do just as you want, its called the ITF and its a wondrous magical place of punches to the face and no chest protectors and we all go tra la la ing around while holding hands. I get a lump in my throat just typing about it. heh.

I talked to my WTF instructor friend and he told me there were a fair number of arm breaks and that they do indeed come from improper blocking. So like I said, just think WTF should teach some better blocking.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[The MMA kid!]

Taekwondo teaches me how to evade an attack, there is no dif between evading a kick and a punch. I've been in fights where i've dodged blows, but also took blows, you can never be good enough to dodge every blow.
Some blows i could easily evade from a *boxer* some i cant...can you evade/block every kick i can throw?

Laborm

Laborm, "there is no dif between evading a kick and a punch" ??? i strongly suggest you crosstrain in a ring art. boxing, mma, muay thai. believe me, you will keep your hands up, or the other guy will do his absolute best to try to knock you out for disrespecting him for not putting those hands up.
why? it is possible for people to dodge and for people to keep their hands up.
- the fastest guy in K1 will have his hands up. if fight anyone that keeps their hands down, you better believe im gonna go for a clinch and throw some elbows/punches to any open spot you leave me.

oh yea, another thing, having your hands held wide out during a clinch isnt a very smart thing to do either.

[Gemini]

Again, we could argue all day about what works where and never come to an agreement. It's apples and oranges. This topic is a vid showing WTF style sparring. Saying it wouldn't work here or there is irrelevant to anything. Let's keep it on topic, please.

[Laborn]

You guys make sense, really you do. No im not well experienced with punches, i just find it easy to see a punch comming, so normally i can react quick enough. That's why i said there's no dif. But i didn't put this video up for people to criticize and point out the bad in taekwondo.

Doesn't really matter if you block right your not in some cases, i mean try blocking one of the many hard hitters in tkd. Like i said i dont usually block, im just not there to get hit.

Laborm

[Damian Mavis]

Sheesh..... ok Laborn... you gotta stop saying things that make me cringe. Do you guys even check the profiles of your fellow posters? Im a 4th dan black belt instructor in TKD... did you think I had never tried blocking a hard hitter in TKD?! Not only that but I did mention I fight full contact in the ring in Thailand and hard spar against professional fighters. Ya, Ive been hit uhm... a little bit hard maybe. Im being silly with my sarcasm and I realise that I need to stop posting on threads like this...... Peoples opinions are based on their experiences no matter how limitted, and if 2 people arent of the same experience than the opinions will always clash.

Gemini is right MMA Kid, in reference to what works in WTF sparring you cant really argue. And your comment on clinching didnt make a lick of sense.... the reason they have their arms out like that when they hug is because that is their rule set. They arent allowed to do anything else! Your comment was like criticising western boxing as it compares to muay thai and saying thier stance isnt very smart... but the boxing stance is completely smart as it pertains to boxings rule set. Just because in muay thai their stance would land them on their back has nothing to do with the boxing stances effectiveness in its own domain.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Laborn]

I'm sorry to have disrespected you, i didn't mean to at all. I'm just saying in MY exp. but this is as you said silly to argue about, sorry guys i wont post another video heh.

Laborm.

[terryl965]

One of the many problem with everybody post on this matter is there experiences and what rules we play by.

Let me help everyone here the VIDs are about Olympics style sparring the comments should stay to the subject at hand and not about other styles.

Last bit of info. for the Olympic game here, one main reason to keep your arms out in the clucth of there's is to stop the outside in kick to the head while they are together with arm out they are a shield against that attack.

The kicks where great for what it was accept that and accept that it is Olympic style.

Your TKD brother
Terry

[Damian Mavis]

No no I didnt feel disrespected, just unappreciated waaaaa haha. And dont stop posting cool videos, as TKDists we will always have arguments with other martial arts practitioners. We are the biggest and most visible, we have dojangs EVERYWHERE, we garner jealousy due to our popularity and criticism based on the fact that 80% of our practitioners are little kids and middle age parents.... not exactly an impressive representation.

We are as guilty as our critics though. We are often just as closed minded and just as unable to accept other martial arts into our lives. My greatest advice to TKDists is to never stop TKD but to supplement it with other fun interesting martial arts that also appeal to you.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Laborn]

Lol true.

[jdinca]

Great thread! Thanks for the answers to my question. :asian: