Does anyone know how good Kamon Wing Chun is?

[darkell]

They are based in the UK mainly in and around the greater London area.

I've found a class of theirs that I can go that is basically on my way home from work. I'm trying to choose between this and a Shorinji Kempo class. Obviously I'm going to go to the class and see for my self but I was wondering if anyone here knows of them.

There web site is at http://kamonwingchun.com/

Thanks in advance for any info.

[ed-swckf]

They are based in the UK mainly in and around the greater London area.

I've found a class of theirs that I can go that is basically on my way home from work. I'm trying to choose between this and a Shorinji Kempo class. Obviously I'm going to go to the class and see for my self but I was wondering if anyone here knows of them.

There web site is at http://kamonwingchun.com/

Thanks in advance for any info.

Kamon is a large franchise with classes all over the UK, the quality of each individual class will depend upon the instructor of that class. I have had contact with a few good and a few not so good. When i say not so good, they do have the ability to teach you something and in the cases i have witnessed it still is wing chun just from a different perspective, for instance the chi sau and sensitivity work seems lacking but they were pretty sharp with step in drills etc. Of course what i say won't really help make up your mind, best thing to do is go down there and have a look for yourself. With a popular franchise like kamon you will easily come across people slating it for whatever reason, i say don't let any talk good or bad take priority over experiencing it for yourself. And like i say, it will depend upon the teacher in that class.

I wish you all the best in whatever art you choose to take on.

[darkell]

Thanks for the info. That class I'm looking at is the Covent Garden one. It's taught by three different instructors on three different nights. On the wednesday it taught by Master Kevin Chan himself so I think the other two guys would have to be pretty decent.

I like the fact that everyone who gets a black belt seems to have trained for at least 6 years. I think that's a pretty good sign. But I was put off by the amount of people in one of the grading photos. There were at least a hundred... I don't particularly want to become part of some little MA factory. I suppose if you have a big school it inevitable, and the crowd thins a lot as you go up the belts.

Like you say, I'll just have to go and see.


Kamon is a large franchise with classes all over the UK, the quality of each individual class will depend upon the instructor of that class. I have had contact with a few good and a few not so good. When i say not so good, they do have the ability to teach you something and in the cases i have witnessed it still is wing chun just from a different perspective, for instance the chi sau and sensitivity work seems lacking but they were pretty sharp with step in drills etc. Of course what i say won't really help make up your mind, best thing to do is go down there and have a look for yourself. With a popular franchise like kamon you will easily come across people slating it for whatever reason, i say don't let any talk good or bad take priority over experiencing it for yourself. And like i say, it will depend upon the teacher in that class.

I wish you all the best in whatever art you choose to take on.

[peterb]

Thanks for the info. That class I'm looking at is the Covent Garden one. It's taught by three different instructors on three different nights. On the wednesday it taught by Master Kevin Chan himself so I think the other two guys would have to be pretty decent.

I like the fact that everyone who gets a black belt seems to have trained for at least 6 years. I think that's a pretty good sign. But I was put off by the amount of people in one of the grading photos. There were at least a hundred... I don't particularly want to become part of some little MA factory. I suppose if you have a big school it inevitable, and the crowd thins a lot as you go up the belts.

Like you say, I'll just have to go and see.

Hi there,

I train at Kamon. The reason that there are lots of people at the grading is because everyone is graded by Master Chan (with the help of top instructors). There are normally about 50 or so people grading for yellow 1 & 2 (the first 2 grades). The higher you get the less people there are grading. The ranking system goes yellow 1, yellow 2, red 1, red 2, green 1, green 2, brown 1, brown 2, black 1, 2, 3 & 4. I'm on Red 2 at the moment and I graded with about 7 other people. Greens there are normally about 5 people grading and the numbers deminish form there up.

Covent garden class is brilliant. Expect a good workout. There is another class in Crawley on a monday which is really good as well. As has been said before different instructors do different things. Some focus on fitness, clinching, fighting etc others focus on forms, technique & stationary drills such as lok sao. Thats what I enjoy about it though you get to train with different instructors of different sizes with different out looks. We are always told that Wing Chun is like a suit taylor made for you. A big person will use Wing Chun differently to a person of a slight build.

Master chan is also a brown belt in brazillian Jujitsu so at his classes there is normally some sort of clinch/ground work stuff going on. He's also doing seminars on ground work. I beleive he's trained in thai boxing as well.

I beleive that the first lesson is free so... not really anything to lose.

I hope that helps.

Regards

Pete

[CuongNhuka]

I haven't heard of them. But welcomes to you (darkell) and peterb. I don't do Ving Tsun (anouther spelling), but Coung Nhu has elements of system, so I hang out here sometimes.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

[KamonGuy2]

I am one of the instructors at Kamon.

I can say that the training is amongst the best you will find.

I do not understand why ed-swckf thinks the chi sao is lacking. I have trained in the USA and many of the wing chun schools in the UK and have not found any schools that did better chi sao and certainly not better than some of the senior instructors.

Kamon also includes a vast amount of knowledge of boxing, BJJ, MT and clinch techniques which are taught by professional instructors of those arts.

Reason for large grading is simple - we have 45 classes over London and you are never counted as just another wing chun drone

I have 20+ students in my class and know everything about them, what qualities they possess and my goal is to make sure they learn something

If you train hard, work hard and are an attentive student, you will do very well. I was an Average Joe and then went to Kamon. Now I'm winning tournaments, excelling at other martial arts and running a successfull class of skilled students

[KamonGuy2]

Have a look at our gallery
http://www.kamonwingchun.com/Gallery.aspx

and even our YOUTUBE debut
www.kamonwingchun.com/gallery/YOU_TUBE_MONTAGE.wmv (http://www.kamonwingchun.com/gallery/YOU_TUBE_MONTAGE.wmv)

comments welcome!

[Changhfy]

thanks for the links Kamon Guy.

Might I ask being that the head Sifu is Kevin Chan, where does the name Kamon come from?

Thanks in advance.


Guo Su,

[brocklee]

So is Kamon a MMA or a derivative of WC? There are a few post where you described actions or movements as WC, when they sound more like WT or VT.

[KamonGuy2]

thanks for the links Kamon Guy.

Might I ask being that the head Sifu is Kevin Chan, where does the name Kamon come from?


Kamon is Kevin Chan's given name (Kin Man)

It was called that to show respect towards his teachers and other schools
(ie saying that he is not the original wing chun and that only people like Ip Chun have te right to call themselves 'Wing Chun' etc)

[KamonGuy2]

So is Kamon a MMA or a derivative of WC? There are a few post where you described actions or movements as WC, when they sound more like WT or VT.

Heretic!!! I despise any suggested link between us and WT!!
For the record, we have no link towards WT.

Can I just say though (as you sound a bit confused) WT is WC!!

It might vary movements from classes you train at but many schools do.
WT is called WT because the founder of that art wanted to (like Kamon is called Kamon)

Kevin Chan was taught by Steve Mair (Sam Kwok Assoc.) before going to Hong Kong and training directly through Ip Chun. He has then trained with other various masters and understood what wing chun was trying to say.

Kamon is wing chun. We train every movement at the core of wing chun, including three hand forms, three non-hand forms, lok sao, dan chi sao, chi sao, feeding techniques, stamping kicks, chain punches, etc

The media gallery has Kevin Chan training other arts and often trains higher graded students other arts, but this is not part of lower level training, and is always mentioned as a separate art (ie if we train BJJ we know that it is BJJ. It is not disguised as wing chun)

I myself train in four different arts at the moment as well as wing chun

[brocklee]

Heretic!!! I despise any suggested link between us and WT!!
For the record, we have no link towards WT.

Can I just say though (as you sound a bit confused) WT is WC!!

It might vary movements from classes you train at but many schools do.
WT is called WT because the founder of that art wanted to (like Kamon is called Kamon)

Kevin Chan was taught by Steve Mair (Sam Kwok Assoc.) before going to Hong Kong and training directly through Ip Chun. He has then trained with other various masters and understood what wing chun was trying to say.

Kamon is wing chun. We train every movement at the core of wing chun, including three hand forms, three non-hand forms, lok sao, dan chi sao, chi sao, feeding techniques, stamping kicks, chain punches, etc

The media gallery has Kevin Chan training other arts and often trains higher graded students other arts, but this is not part of lower level training, and is always mentioned as a separate art (ie if we train BJJ we know that it is BJJ. It is not disguised as wing chun)

I myself train in four different arts at the moment as well as wing chun

That's why I was asking, I wasn't sure.

WT is called WT for a reason. That topic should be discussed under a different thread though.

[CheukMo]

Kamon is Kevin Chan's given name (Kin Man)


Good thing it's not Kin Man Tau... http://ar15.com/images/smilies/icon_smile_big.gif




WT is called WT for a reason. That topic should be discussed under a different thread though.

Maybe there should be one...

[brocklee]

Good thing it's not Kin Man Tau... http://ar15.com/images/smilies/icon_smile_big.gif





Maybe there should be one...

Quite possibly. May become heated.

[CheukMo]

Quite possibly. May become heated.


So??? Knowing the differences in styles and lineages is important in at least some cases, if not most.

[Changhfy]

So is Kamon a MMA or a derivative of WC? There are a few post where you described actions or movements as WC, when they sound more like WT or VT

Actually VT- Ving Tsun is the same as Wing Chun, Ving Tsun is a more accurate way to translate from the chinese characters into english words.
Even though Wing Chun has become the more accepted translation.




take care

[KamonGuy2]

A person on another forum mentioned that the reason Leung Ting changed the name was because WC sounded like a toilet (Women's Convenience) and people would get confused distinguishing his brand

If every wing chun school went under the title 'Wing Chun', we wouldn't know who was who!!!

I don't see why finding out about lineages would get heated.
It doesn't really matter where you learnt a martial art as long as it makes sense! There was a group in America who fought in bars almost every night and formed their own school. They didn't learn fighting from any individual, but from experience fighting!

Kevin Chan started out learning under Sam Kwok but in the end went straight to Ip Chun and has since learnt from several other masters

Lineage is nice and does boost credibility, but I don't rely on it. I wouldn't refuse to train under a school that didn't specify lineage.

It's almost like eating food when you don't know the ingredients. As long as it tastes good....

[ed-swckf]

I am one of the instructors at Kamon.

I can say that the training is amongst the best you will find.

I do not understand why ed-swckf thinks the chi sao is lacking. I have trained in the USA and many of the wing chun schools in the UK and have not found any schools that did better chi sao and certainly not better than some of the senior instructors.


You are bound to say that however to enlighten you on why i said it was lacking is because in the classes and teachers i have seen it was lacking in quality and understanding. Now i did address the problem with large franchises in my initial post - which is that whilst there may be a lot of good instructors there can also be weaker ones with less skill especially with a franchise the size of kamon. I know kevin knows his stuff but with the large numbers not everyone gets quality time with kevin or even with the higher level instructors. So whilst at the top with ones that all associate with each other often there is a good quality there is also a lot of instructors that don't have the same quality to feed into a class - this has nothing to do with where you have trained and perhaps more to do with places you havent trained - unless you are saying that from experience all kamon schools have very good chi sao? I mean i did try to explain that my words were just of my experience and that the training will vary from class to class even within the kamon franchise. Perhaps its possible that i have been unlucky and seen more of the downside to kamon than the upside, i'll accept that and am happy to believe there to be many great kamon schools out there but it doesn't stop there also being some less great schools.

I honestly am not slating kamon i am seriously just being honest about my experiences and sharing them with someone who asked.

[brocklee]

So??? Knowing the differences in styles and lineages is important in at least some cases, if not most.

I believe we weren't talking about the style or lineage, but more about the politics.

[brocklee]

A person on another forum mentioned that the reason Leung Ting changed the name was because WC sounded like a toilet (Women's Convenience) and people would get confused distinguishing his brand

If every wing chun school went under the title 'Wing Chun', we wouldn't know who was who!!!

I don't see why finding out about lineages would get heated.
It doesn't really matter where you learnt a martial art as long as it makes sense! There was a group in America who fought in bars almost every night and formed their own school. They didn't learn fighting from any individual, but from experience fighting!

Kevin Chan started out learning under Sam Kwok but in the end went straight to Ip Chun and has since learnt from several other masters

Lineage is nice and does boost credibility, but I don't rely on it. I wouldn't refuse to train under a school that didn't specify lineage.

It's almost like eating food when you don't know the ingredients. As long as it tastes good....

I believe the WC you are referring to was for wash closet. I too have heard that but that's just someone being funny. My sifu not only teaches us WC, he also teaches us the history of Ip Man line. He tells us what students went where, who created what kuens, and who did what to whom. All this info was passed down the same way to him as he passes down to us. In the long run its kind of dramatic and would make a great plot for a gung fu movie but ends up being alot of people arguing about whats right.

[CheukMo]

I believe we weren't talking about the style or lineage, but more about the politics.

You said there was a difference in WT and WC, that's all.

[KamonGuy2]

You are bound to say that however to enlighten you on why i said it was lacking is because in the classes and teachers i have seen it was lacking in quality and understanding. Now i did address the problem with large franchises in my initial post - which is that whilst there may be a lot of good instructors there can also be weaker ones with less skill especially with a franchise the size of kamon. I know kevin knows his stuff but with the large numbers not everyone gets quality time with kevin or even with the higher level instructors. So whilst at the top with ones that all associate with each other often there is a good quality there is also a lot of instructors that don't have the same quality to feed into a class - this has nothing to do with where you have trained and perhaps more to do with places you havent trained - unless you are saying that from experience all kamon schools have very good chi sao? I mean i did try to explain that my words were just of my experience and that the training will vary from class to class even within the kamon franchise. Perhaps its possible that i have been unlucky and seen more of the downside to kamon than the upside, i'll accept that and am happy to believe there to be many great kamon schools out there but it doesn't stop there also being some less great schools.

I honestly am not slating kamon i am seriously just being honest about my experiences and sharing them with someone who asked.
I wouldn't train at Kamon if I didn't think it was the best. I did chi sao with a guy who had trained under Anton Thomas for 8 years and destroyed him

The instructors at Kamon are extremely good at what they do. Before I became an instructor Sifu Kevin Chan made sure that we know all about lineages/other styles, that we could handle chi sao at advanced level, that we knew all hand forms, that we could fight to a good level and that we could teach well.

Of course we aren't as good as Kevin Chan, but I don't know many instructors who are!! I currently train with WT instructors and instructors from Southern Wing Chun school in Essex and swap ideas about. I have found that they are around the same knowledge as myself, but that they are severly lacking in knowledge of other martial arts.

Can I ask what class you went to/trained at, etc

[brocklee]

You said there was a difference in WT and WC, that's all.

Oh, I thought you we're talking about this:
"WT is called WT for a reason. That topic should be discussed under a different thread though."

Talking about the differences is fine. There are threads already that focus on that topic.

[CheukMo]

Oh, I thought you we're talking about this:
"WT is called WT for a reason. That topic should be discussed under a different thread though."

Talking about the differences is fine. There are threads already that focus on that topic.


Yeah, but I'll have to use that pesky search function to do that... http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[brocklee]

The topic may be a page or two in the past, but we just had a discussion on the differences and similarities between the two. I believe WT looks similar to WC but some of the fundimentals are out the door as soon as you swing around the center axis. That and the punch seems extremely exaggerated and uses lots of muscle.

[ed-swckf]

I wouldn't train at Kamon if I didn't think it was the best. I did chi sao with a guy who had trained under Anton Thomas for 8 years and destroyed him

The instructors at Kamon are extremely good at what they do. Before I became an instructor Sifu Kevin Chan made sure that we know all about lineages/other styles, that we could handle chi sao at advanced level, that we knew all hand forms, that we could fight to a good level and that we could teach well.

Of course we aren't as good as Kevin Chan, but I don't know many instructors who are!! I currently train with WT instructors and instructors from Southern Wing Chun school in Essex and swap ideas about. I have found that they are around the same knowledge as myself, but that they are severly lacking in knowledge of other martial arts.

Can I ask what class you went to/trained at, etc

Thats great, but like i said unless you have trained with all kamon instructors its hard to be sure that they are all that good. Perhaps, like i said there is just a weak link or two that i was exposed to. I know kevin knows his wing chun and i don't dispute that he may have a lot of great people in his organisation but i was witness to some less than favourable representatives and as much as you don't want to hear that (understandably) it is what i saw/felt. I am not discrediting kamon in the slightest just speaking of what i saw, like i say, i know kevin is good i have seen this. But its like they say, you'll have to do your own growing no matter how tall your grandfather was. Again i just want to make it clear i am not attacking you skill level or knowledge i am simply repeating what i experienced with no malice whatsoever.

I know some people who are under Sifu Cheung Kwok Wan, never had the pleasure of training with him personally.

I train under sifu sam kwok.

[KamonGuy2]

Thats great, but like i said unless you have trained with all kamon instructors its hard to be sure that they are all that good. Perhaps, like i said there is just a weak link or two that i was exposed to. I know kevin knows his wing chun and i don't dispute that he may have a lot of great people in his organisation but i was witness to some less than favourable representatives and as much as you don't want to hear that (understandably) it is what i saw/felt. I am not discrediting kamon in the slightest just speaking of what i saw, like i say, i know kevin is good i have seen this. But its like they say, you'll have to do your own growing no matter how tall your grandfather was. Again i just want to make it clear i am not attacking you skill level or knowledge i am simply repeating what i experienced with no malice whatsoever.

I know some people who are under Sifu Cheung Kwok Wan, never had the pleasure of training with him personally.

I train under sifu sam kwok.
You can say anything on here and I won't take it personally. People are entitled to their opinions and I value them.

I have trained with EVERY one of the Kamon instructors currently teaching (and some that have moved on) and so I am interested in who your instructors were.

Kevin Chan is very good at what he does and teaches and like you say he is up there at the top, but he is available on Mondays (Croydon class), Tuesday (Beckenahm class), Thursday (Portsmouth class) and in seminars. He also does advanced classes at Covent Garden and private lessons for Kamon members and non-members alike. He teaches everyone beginners and advanced students and is a friendly guy

Of course his instructors won't know as much as him - not many people do in the UK. Sam Kwok is extremely good at wing chun (he even started Kevin Chan off in wing chun) but he lacks the knowledge of other martial arts which is essential for developing your own techniques.

Again, if you would name the instructor/s either on here or on private message I would be grateful

[ed-swckf]

You can say anything on here and I won't take it personally. People are entitled to their opinions and I value them.

I have trained with EVERY one of the Kamon instructors currently teaching (and some that have moved on) and so I am interested in who your instructors were.

They weren't my instructors, my teacher is sam kwok. They are people i have encountered during my time in wing chun and i remain friends with them. I would mention names but they themselves have some issues with kamon so i think i'll refrain from putting the spotlight on them.


Kevin Chan is very good at what he does and teaches and like you say he is up there at the top, but he is available on Mondays (Croydon class), Tuesday (Beckenahm class), Thursday (Portsmouth class) and in seminars. He also does advanced classes at Covent Garden and private lessons for Kamon members and non-members alike. He teaches everyone beginners and advanced students and is a friendly guy

I have never disputed kevins character or ability, it needs no discussing. As for the classes he runs, i know not all instructors make it to see kevin on a regular basis at all despite the availability.


Of course his instructors won't know as much as him - not many people do in the UK. Sam Kwok is extremely good at wing chun (he even started Kevin Chan off in wing chun) but he lacks the knowledge of other martial arts which is essential for developing your own techniques.

Oh, so what you are trying to say is your instructor is better than my instructor. Thats fine, but i'd like to know why you think sam lacks knowledge of other martial arts, he has a vast amount of knowledge of various arts but perhaps you just don't accept that.


Again, if you would name the instructor/s either on here or on private message I would be grateful

No i don't feel that would be appropiate, their names aren't important, it shouldn't matter to you.

[KamonGuy2]

They weren't my instructors, my teacher is sam kwok. They are people i have encountered during my time in wing chun and i remain friends with them. I would mention names but they themselves have some issues with kamon so i think i'll refrain from putting the spotlight on them..



No i don't feel that would be appropiate, their names aren't important, it shouldn't matter to you.
Well I'm sorry, but if you can't back up your comments, then please don't post such statements. That is like me saying I think BJJ is rubbish. What instructor did I train under? Oooo I couldn't possibly say, but it does mean that BJJ isn't very good

I understand that you are attacking a federation rather than an art, but its the same line of thought

And you haven't learnt under them? How on earth do you know how good their teaching is? Have they shown you everything?



Oh, so what you are trying to say is your instructor is better than my instructor. Thats fine, but i'd like to know why you think sam lacks knowledge of other martial arts, he has a vast amount of knowledge of various arts but perhaps you just don't accept that.


I have trained under Sam Kwok both in his classes and at seminars
He certainly holds events with extremely good martial artists such as Bob Breen etc, but he maintains his wing chun will hold against anything (rather than train other martial arts)

I never said that my instructor was better than your instructor - that is a very general statement. I have learnt more off Kevin Chan in a year than I ever did under Sam Kwok, but that is me (one individual). Sam has taught many people and it obviously works for them. It didn't for me.

[CheukMo]

I don't want to get in the middle of an argument, but I have to agree with Kamon Guy. If you are claiming that some sifu is/are not teaching as well as they should you should at least IM the names to him in order for him to be able to check it out and let Kevin Chan review and make any corrections that might be necessary.

[KamonGuy2]

Exactly. Thanks Cheuk Mo.

ed-swckf
As I said, I know all the instructors in Kamon, and none of them would be offended by honest comments, but I have taken offence at your previous comments which is basically saying that most of the instructors in Kamon are inadequate.

One of our instructors has been doing wing chun for 40 years and is extremely experinced. Other instructors have trained with other wing chunners before coming to Kamon. There is a wealth of knowledge there and to merely write it off is pretty bad.

I am not very keen on William Cheung or Wai Po's schools due to teaching styles, but I would never just criticise them generally on a forum with no backing.

I assume the forum was built to give information about federations and martial arts out there good and bad, but perhaps a little more info should be provided before comments are made

[ed-swckf]

I don't want to get in the middle of an argument, but I have to agree with Kamon Guy. If you are claiming that some sifu is/are not teaching as well as they should you should at least IM the names to him in order for him to be able to check it out and let Kevin Chan review and make any corrections that might be necessary.

Well i never said what they teach isn't good, i just said the focus on chisau is lacking somewhat. Its not up to me to report this, if they don't believe that its even true then it is not down to me to convince them. What has been said here thus far by kamonguy is that there is already provisions in place to ensure all instructors teach to the standard required. I only expressed an opinion on a couple of schools that i have had contact with, and as an outsider my opinion on how their club should be run really isn't grounds for kevin to change things. If kevin is happy with everyone doing what they are doing then fine, he see's what happens with gradings etc. I've tried hard to express that it is just my opinion based on my experience and that i am not suggesting what they do is wrong, just different toa lot of other places - i expressed this because someone was looking to join and i wanted to give them an objective opinion not to start a discussion about who's school is better.

[ed-swckf]

Exactly. Thanks Cheuk Mo.

ed-swckf
As I said, I know all the instructors in Kamon, and none of them would be offended by honest comments, but I have taken offence at your previous comments which is basically saying that most of the instructors in Kamon are inadequate.

I never once said that in the slightest, you must have a complex. All i have said is that the teachers i know from kamon and the classes they teach have less of a focus on chisau and the intricate points of sensitivity. If that suits the individual then kamon is great and i have continued to say in every post that i am not trying to slate kamon but you insist on taking it as such. My comments were all honest yet you took offence. I also really have no idea why you think i said most instructors were inadequate as i was continually trying to concede that it could just be the people i know and that with large franchises its possible to have some that may not have the fullness of knowledge. Basically i gave you every easy out there was but you just want to argue the fact, if you think i'm lying i'm not, if you think my opinion is worth nothing then don't entertain it.


One of our instructors has been doing wing chun for 40 years and is extremely experinced. Other instructors have trained with other wing chunners before coming to Kamon. There is a wealth of knowledge there and to merely write it off is pretty bad.

And this relates to nothing i have said, you are continually just responding to things i have never said and assuming i have written of kamon, i haven't and never said i did. There is a reason why the word ass is in assumption, because thats what it makes you.


I am not very keen on William Cheung or Wai Po's schools due to teaching styles, but I would never just criticise them generally on a forum with no backing.

I expressed an opinion based on my experience, if you actually read what i wrote you would see i said, some are good but i experienced some not so good. I also said that my opinion shouldn't decide anything and suggested visiting the classes themselves. My opinion stands, the focus on chisau in some kamon schools is lacking, what backing do ineed to have an opinoon on what i experience? Now seeing as you have expressed your opinion on william cheung and wai po tang would you now fully qualify every reason for that opinion?


I assume the forum was built to give information about federations and martial arts out there good and bad, but perhaps a little more info should be provided before comments are made

Well no, because its just an opinion, its up to others to make up their own minds, i will let people know of my experience. I notice you don't ask people to thouroughly back up their opinions when it paints you in a more positive light. In fact you never even asked me to back up my comment of seeing some good kamon schools. This isn't about me backing up comments its about you wanting to justify your school when someone is expressing an opinion different to your own. Not everyone likes kamon, i could go into quite a political rant of events i have witnessed but to be honest its not the place at all, i am avoiding it. I would say the same for students of sam kwok that teach, their are some good and some not so good, its up to the student to visit the class and see how it works for them. I have provided all the info necessary, if you really can't accept opinions being expressed then ignore them. Getting into an argument about it is ridiculous. If you really want to spend all this time discussing me expressing my opinion and even saying may opinion is just my opinion and urging people to find out for themselves then go ahead.

[ed-swckf]

Well I'm sorry, but if you can't back up your comments, then please don't post such statements. That is like me saying I think BJJ is rubbish. What instructor did I train under? Oooo I couldn't possibly say, but it does mean that BJJ isn't very good

I never said it was rubbish, learn to read. I said its focus on chisau was lacking, lots of schools will favour different areas, i said it was very sharp at step in drills and stuff too but we aren't asking for evidence for that are we? Why not? I never said it wasn't very good, thats what you assumed. I can back up mycomments all day long but i'm not about to single out people on a public forum, and based on the way you are perceiving what i am saying if i was to say who they were then you would be like "oh so and so says you are crap" which is really not what i have said at all. When you learn toread what is written and not what you want to see then perhaps i will be more forthcomming with information. As it stands i said some kamon scholls are good, some are bad in my experience and then suggested the best way to find out is to go visit the school as one persons opinion quite often isn't another pearsons. Now you may hold a different opinion on things than me but i accept that, it doesn't make it fact and when it comes to things like this you shouldn't goby other peoples opinion you should make up your own mind based on what you see personally. If you are happy with your opinion based on what you see then mine really shouldn't matter. If you are in doubt in some areas and wish for a second opinion then mine is available, and when you are less argumentative i will be happy to discuss my opinion more fully, in private. As it stands i remain of the opinion that some kamon classes are great, some lack in areas i would prefer them not to but i feel anyone interested should check the school out for themselves. If you really have a problem with that then that remains your problem.


I understand that you are attacking a federation rather than an art, but its the same line of thought

I am not attacking anything, i am suggesting people check it out, and that it wasn't personally valid for me because of x,y and z. If you are that sensitive there is something wrong.


And you haven't learnt under them? How on earth do you know how good their teaching is? Have they shown you everything?

No, but what would you say if i mentioned that they came to learn under us? I have experienced their classes as a guest,like i said they are friends. They have shown me their repitoire, yes and its not bad but hey in my opinion there is some areas lacking, which they enjoy working on with me.




I have trained under Sam Kwok both in his classes and at seminars
He certainly holds events with extremely good martial artists such as Bob Breen etc, but he maintains his wing chun will hold against anything (rather than train other martial arts)

Well my experiences vary from your own. I could get all uppity about this because you are saying things that differ from my opinion but you are fully entitled to your opinion based on your experiences, its far from conclusive just like mine of kamon. I would just urge people to visit sam and talk to him about other martial arts and make up their own mind.


I never said that my instructor was better than your instructor - that is a very general statement. I have learnt more off Kevin Chan in a year than I ever did under Sam Kwok, but that is me (one individual). Sam has taught many people and it obviously works for them. It didn't for me.

I'm glad you have the ability to distinguish individuality now perhaps you can see that my opinion was based on me as an individual, if you are happy with your opinion then just accept mine as different. People should make up their own minds regardless of any opinions raised here. All the opinions here are good for is giving people something to look out for when they find out for themselves. People looking at kamon schools may look at the approach to chisau (and say to themselves "its fine, the guy on the forum must have expereinced something else to this") and people talking to sam may ask about his stance on other martial arts (and say to themselves "well he seems to have a wealth of knowledge on other arts and displays that in a manner iam happy with it might just have been wrong for that other guy on the forum.")

I'm glad kamon works for you, again, i am not and never have slated kamon, i just found areas thati would prefer to be different - my opinion, everyone needs to make up their own mind and i expressed that.

[KamonGuy2]

You are bound to say that however to enlighten you on why i said it was lacking is because in the classes and teachers i have seen it was lacking in quality and understanding. Now i did address the problem with large franchises in my initial post - which is that whilst there may be a lot of good instructors there can also be weaker ones with less skill especially with a franchise the size of kamon. I know kevin knows his stuff but with the large numbers not everyone gets quality time with kevin or even with the higher level instructors. So whilst at the top with ones that all associate with each other often there is a good quality there is also a lot of instructors that don't have the same quality to feed into a class - this has nothing to do with where you have trained and perhaps more to do with places you havent trained - unless you are saying that from experience all kamon schools have very good chi sao?

This, for me is why I have a problem. You are basically saying here that the chi sao in Kamon is not good. This is not an assumption - read your own words please

To answer, yes ALL of the Kamon instructors are very good at chi sao.

At the beginning, no chi sao is taught. Instead sticking drills such as lok sao and lap sao are taught as well as other drills. When a student has built in structire, footwork etc, they will then progress to chi sao. This is done two years after a student starts. However, by the time that they start to learn chi sao, the structure and understanding is such that the chi sao play is easy to them. Chi sao and forms are worked on later into the art but this is the way it should be done. If you start someone off in chi sao, it is sloppy. It is like asking a newbie to boxing to step into the ring and fight!

Of course Kevin Chan will be better at chi sao than his instructors, just like Ip Chun is better at chi sao than Sam Kwok or Robert Chu is better than Alan Orr. Not many people succeed their instructor in skill

I am probably the worst instructor at chi sao in Kamon and I have been able to outplay many instructors from other federations.

I would still appreciate an answer as to what classes you visited as I find it important to answer on behalf of my colleagues fairly.

And as a last comment, my personal experience of Sam Kwok has not jaded me to the fact that he is good at wing chun. He is an exceptional martial artist, but I chose Kamon as the self defence aspect was good. I have since found that the tutorials on chi sao is very good. At the Wednesday Covent Garden class (and at Croydon on monday) chi sao is all we do for the whole lesson!!

[ed-swckf]

This, for me is why I have a problem. You are basically saying here that the chi sao in Kamon is not good. This is not an assumption - read your own words please

To answer, yes ALL of the Kamon instructors are very good at chi sao.

That doesn't mean that what they do isn't any good even when i do say their chi sao lacks something. I most definitely do not say that chi sao in kamon is not good, you assumed that. I said i have experienced some people from kamon that have some qualitys lacking in their chi sao. I have also experienced some good chi sao in kamon and i mentioned i found both good and not so good when i expressed my opinion. Based on my experience i formed my opinion, i don't mind if you think differently to me but don't expect my opinion to change because you say all kamon chi sao is very good. I have an opinion based on events you didn't experience, as a result my opinion differs, deal with it.




At the beginning, no chi sao is taught. Instead sticking drills such as lok sao and lap sao are taught as well as other drills. When a student has built in structire, footwork etc, they will then progress to chi sao. This is done two years after a student starts. However, by the time that they start to learn chi sao, the structure and understanding is such that the chi sao play is easy to them. Chi sao and forms are worked on later into the art but this is the way it should be done. If you start someone off in chi sao, it is sloppy. It is like asking a newbie to boxing to step into the ring and fight!

Thanks for sharing that.


Of course Kevin Chan will be better at chi sao than his instructors, just like Ip Chun is better at chi sao than Sam Kwok or Robert Chu is better than Alan Orr. Not many people succeed their instructor in skill

Hardly the point i was making at all. I don't expect them to be better than kevin. If an instructor from another school came to partake in your class and you found they lacked some major fundamentals in chi sao you wouldn't think that means the head instructor of that school is of the same quality as the visiting party. You would however be able to form an opinion about his knowledge and quality of chi sao, this doesn't mean the rest of the schools are bad, now this guy enjoys training with us because he picks up a lot of stuff that he needs to work on, he is humble about his standard of wing chun. I visit his school and i have never said its not good, i think its all valid stuff i just found in this particular case, the chi sao was in need of work. But because this is simply not even a possibility for you being that all kamon chi sao is very good,i think we should just agree that its just some weird opinion i have gotten that isn't plausible or worth entertaining. I'm happy to concede that all kamon chi sao is very good and if it makes things easier i will retract my opinion of the situation i experienced.


I am probably the worst instructor at chi sao in Kamon and I have been able to outplay many instructors from other federations.

Well believe it or not i have opinions on other federations too, i am even critical of my own training, its not a bad thing. Its all based on my experiences so they may differ from yours.




I would still appreciate an answer as to what classes you visited as I find it important to answer on behalf of my colleagues fairly. [quote]

You can still answer on your colleagues behalf fairly. Personally i think that i should respect peoples privacy, if they wish to raise an issue with things they can. I'm just a guy expressing a personal opinion, one that doesn't hold any weight with you so it really doesn't matter.



[quote=Kamon Guy;833005]And as a last comment, my personal experience of Sam Kwok has not jaded me to the fact that he is good at wing chun. He is an exceptional martial artist, but I chose Kamon as the self defence aspect was good. I have since found that the tutorials on chi sao is very good. At the Wednesday Covent Garden class (and at Croydon on monday) chi sao is all we do for the whole lesson!!

Ok, well i will also add that i have never thought lowly of kevin chan. And i'm glad that chi sao for you is not lacking.

[KamonGuy2]

That doesn't mean that what they do isn't any good even when i do say their chi sao lacks something. I most definitely do not say that chi sao in kamon is not good, you assumed that. I said i have experienced some people from kamon that have some qualitys lacking in their chi sao. I have also experienced some good chi sao in kamon and i mentioned i found both good and not so good when i expressed my opinion. Based on my experience i formed my opinion, i don't mind if you think differently to me but don't expect my opinion to change because you say all kamon chi sao is very good. I have an opinion based on events you didn't experience, as a result my opinion differs, deal with it. .
No what you said is that the chi sao was lacking at Kamon. Most people will agree that this is saying that the chi sao is bad.
If something lacks something it is not a good thing
I have offered you the chance to back up your claims and state who you trained with. You haven't and therefore I am finding it harder and harder to believe anything you say.




Hardly the point i was making at all. I don't expect them to be better than kevin. If an instructor from another school came to partake in your class and you found they lacked some major fundamentals in chi sao you wouldn't think that means the head instructor of that school is of the same quality as the visiting party. You would however be able to form an opinion about his knowledge and quality of chi sao, this doesn't mean the rest of the schools are bad, now this guy enjoys training with us because he picks up a lot of stuff that he needs to work on, he is humble about his standard of wing chun. I visit his school and i have never said its not good, i think its all valid stuff i just found in this particular case, the chi sao was in need of work. But because this is simply not even a possibility for you being that all kamon chi sao is very good,i think we should just agree that its just some weird opinion i have gotten that isn't plausible or worth entertaining. I'm happy to concede that all kamon chi sao is very good and if it makes things easier i will retract my opinion of the situation i experienced..
Again you are suggesting that are our instructors are lacking 'major fundamentals' in chi sao. If I said on this forum that many of Sam Kwok's students lack major fundamentals (even though they don't), I am sure he would be displeased. Or certainly most of his instructors would be



Well believe it or not i have opinions on other federations too, i am even critical of my own training, its not a bad thing. Its all based on my experiences so they may differ from yours..
Well if you write an opinion that criticises you got to back it up or people just will not take you seriously. It is the same as criticising certain arts
You have stated that you 'met up with' a couple of instructors and trained (which is highly doubtful, as we are not allowed to do that except in private lessons), giving no name of the instructor/s. Are you sure they were instructors for instance?




You can still answer on your colleagues behalf fairly. Personally i think that i should respect peoples privacy, if they wish to raise an issue with things they can. I'm just a guy expressing a personal opinion, one that doesn't hold any weight with you so it really doesn't matter..
I can't really answer them fairly as every instructor is different. If you tell me a name I can tell you specifics on their training, examples of where their chi sao has held up, whether they are an instructor in Kamon or not, and how long they have trained



Ok, well i will also add that i have never thought lowly of kevin chan. And i'm glad that chi sao for you is not lacking.
I thankyou for saying that, but I am still interested in finding out what training you have had that can make judgement over possibly more experienced wing chunners and their chi sao

[ed-swckf]

No what you said is that the chi sao was lacking at Kamon. Most people will agree that this is saying that the chi sao is bad.
If something lacks something it is not a good thing
I have offered you the chance to back up your claims and state who you trained with. You haven't and therefore I am finding it harder and harder to believe anything you say.

You are taking it out of context, i have stated that i have found some kamon to be good and some that i found the chi sao to lack. I have always stated this was not the same in all kamon schools, just an experience i have had. We are talking about that particular experience not kamon as a whole, its easy to take it out of context so it says what you want but its simply not what i have been saying if you read the whole thread in context. And i don't care if you or anyone believes me, in fact i continually urge people to find out for themselves. I don't need to back anything up, its a personal opinion, i'm refraining from dropping names on here and if you can't believe i had this experience thats fine, i have already said thats fine a million times.




Again you are suggesting that are our instructors are lacking 'major fundamentals' in chi sao. If I said on this forum that many of Sam Kwok's students lack major fundamentals (even though they don't), I am sure he would be displeased. Or certainly most of his instructors would be

I'm talking about one, maybe two guys. Now if you said about people even though they don't lack those fundamentals then that would be stupid but if you really thought they were lacking something then you should say that. I don't know where you are getting the idea of many students seeing as i am not talking about many. Now i also said i would retract my personal opinion but you ignored that and just seem to want to go back and forth. Well carry on, to me it really seems like theres nothing else to say but i will continue to reply if you want to keep going.



Well if you write an opinion that criticises you got to back it up or people just will not take you seriously. It is the same as criticising certain arts
You have stated that you 'met up with' a couple of instructors and trained (which is highly doubtful, as we are not allowed to do that except in private lessons), giving no name of the instructor/s. Are you sure they were instructors for instance?

I am sure they are instructors and perhaps the fact they aren't allowed to do that is why they asked for my confidence. Again i don't need to convince you of anything, if you don't want to believe me then don't, its really as simple as that. I don't mind how you take it but going on and on about it really won't change things. I offered to concede and retract the opinion i arrived at, what is it you actually want? I am not about to disclose who they are especially not without even discussing it with them first. aside from their names what do you think this back and forth will acheive?




I can't really answer them fairly as every instructor is different. If you tell me a name I can tell you specifics on their training, examples of where their chi sao has held up, whether they are an instructor in Kamon or not, and how long they have trained

If every instructor being different is the reason you can't answer on your colleagues behalf fairly, well thats really not down to me or anything i say.





I thankyou for saying that, but I am still interested in finding out what training you have had that can make judgement over possibly more experienced wing chunners and their chi sao

The instructors i refered to were not more experienced than myself however a beginers critique is just as valid as they may see something others just accepted.

[KamonGuy2]

I am sure they are instructors and perhaps the fact they aren't allowed to do that is why they asked for my confidence. Again i don't need to convince you of anything, if you don't want to believe me then don't, its really as simple as that. I don't mind how you take it but going on and on about it really won't change things. I offered to concede and retract the opinion i arrived at, what is it you actually want? I am not about to disclose who they are especially not without even discussing it with them first. aside from their names what do you think this back and forth will acheive?.
So you don't know that they were instructors?
I would like a complete retraction in your previous statements.



The instructors i refered to were not more experienced than myself however a beginers critique is just as valid as they may see something others just accepted.
Not at all. A beginner will not understand anything to do with chi sao
It is like an apprentice mechanic telling NASA that they don't think their space shuttles are good.

You seem to put yourself on a pedestal. The Kamon instructors are amongst the most experienced in Britain, because they know more than just wing chun. You have not detailed your own experience or refuse to name the instructors you trained with which means that you are full of nonsense

[ed-swckf]

So you don't know that they were instructors?
I would like a complete retraction in your previous statements.

How does me saying i am sure they are instructors equate to me not knowing they are instructors? I am sure as in i am sure.



Not at all. A beginner will not understand anything to do with chi sao
It is like an apprentice mechanic telling NASA that they don't think their space shuttles are good.

I was talking generally, but again you are unable to see that regardless of how knowledgable someone is someone can always turn up and point out something you haven't seen or seen and just not noted. I think you just want to disagree with anything i say. So yeah you are right, forget what i said.


You seem to put yourself on a pedestal. The Kamon instructors are amongst the most experienced in Britain, because they know more than just wing chun. You have not detailed your own experience or refuse to name the instructors you trained with which means that you are full of nonsense

If those reasons mean that then i hiope you are happy at how you arrived at your decision. Because i don't disclose information it must be nonsense. Thats fine, now lets forget this and perhaps we can enjoy more positive discourse in other threads.

[KamonGuy2]

How does me saying i am sure they are instructors equate to me not knowing they are instructors? I am sure as in i am sure. .
If someone says 'I'm sure', that is their opinion. It does not sound certain. Usually someone would say, yes they proved they were instructors, or yes they were definately instructors. 'I'm sure' sounds like you have guessed they were instructors. I find it hard to believe that any of our instructors would train with you, and this is why I am keen to find out their names for verification. Your word is not good enough for me. As I said, there is nothing wrong with private emailing me their names, but you have refused to do this over and over again.




If those reasons mean that then i hiope you are happy at how you arrived at your decision. Because i don't disclose information it must be nonsense. Thats fine, now lets forget this and perhaps we can enjoy more positive discourse in other threads.
Yes, if someone posts a message on here, saying Sam Kwok is rubbish with no explanation, no names given what would you think?

[ed-swckf]

If someone says 'I'm sure', that is their opinion. It does not sound certain. Usually someone would say, yes they proved they were instructors, or yes they were definately instructors. 'I'm sure' sounds like you have guessed they were instructors. I find it hard to believe that any of our instructors would train with you, and this is why I am keen to find out their names for verification. Your word is not good enough for me. As I said, there is nothing wrong with private emailing me their names, but you have refused to do this over and over again.

I'm sorry but "i'm sure" means just that - "i'm sure." If you took that to mean "i am not sure" then i appologise. And i have said before that i don't need your validation, i am happy for you to dismiss what i say as nonsense, i am also happy for you to believe based on this discourse that no one from kamon would train with me, if you feel you can really make that kind of assertion then i don't mind. If my word is not good enough then be on your way and carry on, if i do get in touch with the person i am refering to and he's happy for me to disclose the information to you then i will PM you that but like i have said until then its unimportant to me if you believe me or not and i'd prefer not to break the confidence we shared without at least speaking to him. I hope you can understand, i'm trying to be reasonable and i understand your desire to know but for now you can write it off as nonsense, ok?




Yes, if someone posts a message on here, saying Sam Kwok is rubbish with no explanation, no names given what would you think?

Well i would probably react simarly to what you have. But i haven't called anyone rubbish, i have simply said from my standpoint this guy, and he was open to this, had to work on a lot of elements in chi sao. So perhaps i would have rected differently to that. He doesn't have time to see kevin often, distance and work make it a less viable option. The guy is actually a very good martial artist and he does pick up stuff quickly, but it was a little bit odd to be working on these elements with someone who instructs. Now this can happen in any organisation and often does, i know some of sams representatives probably shouldn't be and its the same all over. Its really difficult when numbers grow and i know you don't believe me at all so i am not trying to convince you of this, what i am trying to do is say i'm sorry you were offended by my commentry, it was never intended that way and i believe you have actually taken much of what i have said out of context and the wrong way. I will take responsibility for that as you were clearly upset, now this guy is a good teacher but his teaching of chi sao was not up to the standards that yourself and the rest of kamon have set, its something we must watch out for in all schools which is why i said people should check it out and compare schools etc. I mean its easy to say, he was taught by sam kwok or kevin chan thats a good school...we strive for that and aim for that but in reality we can find at times a teacher that may still not have a full grasp on everything. And they will still be very good, this is not me saying they are rubbish, i have never rubbished kamon i just highlighted that even with standards set in place all schools are far from the sum of their cheif instructors teachings and all teachers do things differently, i bet all kamon instructors are unique in their interpretation of wing chun right? Well this is just one guys interpretation.

Like i say i'm happy for you to dismiss it as complete nonsense, you have every right to. I have explained as much as i feel i should and wouldn't feel comfortable dropping names, i hope you can understand? I completely understand you thinking its nonsense however i don't believe that me not giving you are name means i'm full of nonsense, perhaps it simply means you just don't have enough information to be sure? I mean what i say could still be true, surely you must at least entertain that possibility so perhaps we could agree that its perfectly fine to regard it as nonsense unless more information is provided. With that in mind i hope we can also agree that just because i haven't presented you with all the information you need to think its not nonsense it doesn't mean that i am full of nonsense, to be honest i was begining to think that maybe you were making personal slates at me. Which is fine, its all good fun i guess.

Anyway i wish you and kamon every success, hopefully this matter is now resolved.

[Danny T]

Hmm! Not wanting to create any more conflict or arguement here, Just a few highlights.

Ed-swckf stated:

“Kamon is a large franchise with classes all over the UK, the quality of each individual class will depend upon the instructor of that class. I have had contact with a few good and a few not so good. When i say not so good, they do have the ability to teach you something and in the cases i have witnessed it still is wing chun just from a different perspective, for instance the chi sau and sensitivity work seems lacking but they were pretty sharp with step in drills etc. Of course what i say won't really help make up your mind, best thing to do is go down there and have a look for yourself. With a popular franchise like kamon you will easily come across people slating it for whatever reason, i say don't let any talk good or bad take priority over experiencing it for yourself. And like i say, it will depend upon the teacher in that class.”

”I wish you all the best in whatever art you choose to take on.”


“Kamon is a large franchise with classes all over the UK, the quality of each individual class will depend upon the instructor of that class.”

This statement could be applied to all organizations.

“I have had contact with a few good and a few not so good. When i say not so good, they do have the ability to teach you something and in the cases i have witnessed it still is wing chun just from a different perspective, for instance the chi sau and sensitivity work seems lacking but they were pretty sharp with step in drills etc.”

Again could be applied to all organizations. There will always be some not as good as others this doesn’t mean all are not good or that they are no good. Ed-swckf even states they are good enough to teach you.
What he does state is, “…in the cases I witnessed…, for instance the chi sau and sensitivity work seems lacking but they were pretty sharp…”

Straight forward assessment based upon his experience of that class at that moment. Not a slant against the organization or all instructors.

He then advises not to take his words good or bad as priority but to go and experience it for yourself. Great Advise.

With any large organization there will always be someone who is better that others and as for as anyone from the outside coming in with previous experience it is possible to have any individual come with a completely different perspective. Nothing wrong with that, just the normal course of life.

Ed then sums up with, “And like i say, it will depend upon the teacher in that class.”
A truthfull general statement which can be applied to any organization or school.


Not taking sides just noting what was stated.

Kamon Guy stated: “…If someone says 'I'm sure', that is their opinion. It does not sound certain…”
Uh, Certain is a synonym of Sure.

Per Merriam-Webster English Dictionary

Sure
Adjective

Firmly Established
Reliable, Trustworthy
marked by or given to feelings of confident
Admitting no doubt: indisputable
Bound to happen: inevitable
careful to remember, attend to or find out.Synonyms
CERTAIN, POSITIVE, COCKSURE mean having no doubt or uncertainty.
CERTAIN may apply to a basing of a conclusion or conviction on definite grounds, certainty and may imply opinionated conviction or forceful expression of it; positive-ness.

Please let us not take any general statement to mean all for all times.

Danny T

[brocklee]

^^ Nice :D I cant wait to see this thread work its way to the bottom of the database. Just arguements looping

[ed-swckf]

^^ Nice :D I cant wait to see this thread work its way to the bottom of the database. Just arguements looping

Me too!

[KamonGuy2]

Hmm! Not wanting to create any more conflict or arguement here, Just a few highlights.

Ed-swckf stated:

“Kamon is a large franchise with classes all over the UK, the quality of each individual class will depend upon the instructor of that class. I have had contact with a few good and a few not so good. When i say not so good, they do have the ability to teach you something and in the cases i have witnessed it still is wing chun just from a different perspective, for instance the chi sau and sensitivity work seems lacking but they were pretty sharp with step in drills etc. Of course what i say won't really help make up your mind, best thing to do is go down there and have a look for yourself. With a popular franchise like kamon you will easily come across people slating it for whatever reason, i say don't let any talk good or bad take priority over experiencing it for yourself. And like i say, it will depend upon the teacher in that class.”

”I wish you all the best in whatever art you choose to take on.”


“Kamon is a large franchise with classes all over the UK, the quality of each individual class will depend upon the instructor of that class.”

This statement could be applied to all organizations.

“I have had contact with a few good and a few not so good. When i say not so good, they do have the ability to teach you something and in the cases i have witnessed it still is wing chun just from a different perspective, for instance the chi sau and sensitivity work seems lacking but they were pretty sharp with step in drills etc.”

Again could be applied to all organizations. There will always be some not as good as others this doesn’t mean all are not good or that they are no good. Ed-swckf even states they are good enough to teach you.
What he does state is, “…in the cases I witnessed…, for instance the chi sau and sensitivity work seems lacking but they were pretty sharp…”

Straight forward assessment based upon his experience of that class at that moment. Not a slant against the organization or all instructors.

Yes it is. The standard at Kamon is such that ALL instructors are extremely good. To say that any instructors chi sao is lacking is an insult. Pure and simple...

The fact that Ed won't name the people he trained with is evidence enough that he is talking nonsense. It is pure conjecture that the people he trained with are instructors at Kamon. Until he mentions any names, there is no room for any further argument. He is arrogant enough to say that the people he trained with 'weren't as experienced as him' and I have given Ed ample opportunity to quote his experience

This might be because I have trained with people from other federations including Sam Kwok, James Sinclair, Alan Orr, Wai Po Tan, Viktor Khan,
and can check his details out.

If I were to say that any of the people I trained with at these federations were lacking in chi sao, I would expect them to be upset over it.

Most of the people I have trained chi sao with from other federations have trained a different way. I have managed to destroy them, but I still would not say that their martial arts is lacking - that is rude.

And by the way, if Kevin Chan rolled hands with you and destroyed you, Ed, would you say that your chi sao is lacking?

[ed-swckf]

Yes it is. The standard at Kamon is such that ALL instructors are extremely good. To say that any instructors chi sao is lacking is an insult. Pure and simple...

The fact that Ed won't name the people he trained with is evidence enough that he is talking nonsense. It is pure conjecture that the people he trained with are instructors at Kamon. Until he mentions any names, there is no room for any further argument. He is arrogant enough to say that the people he trained with 'weren't as experienced as him' and I have given Ed ample opportunity to quote his experience

This might be because I have trained with people from other federations including Sam Kwok, James Sinclair, Alan Orr, Wai Po Tan, Viktor Khan,
and can check his details out.

If I were to say that any of the people I trained with at these federations were lacking in chi sao, I would expect them to be upset over it.

Most of the people I have trained chi sao with from other federations have trained a different way. I have managed to destroy them, but I still would not say that their martial arts is lacking - that is rude.

And by the way, if Kevin Chan rolled hands with you and destroyed you, Ed, would you say that your chi sao is lacking?

Well i have tried to be reasonable and smooth things over, i'm guessing you are still a little sore after feeling insulted, i applogise. so perhaps its best we stop discussing things as i feel you are taking things out of context in order to slate me. Perhaps we can discuss things when the tension has gone but right now i can't help but sense that your responses are driven by anger. I think you are attempting to entice me into further disscussion so you can further state your disapproval of anything i say. I hope you can understand this and i also hope you endevour to understand my standpoint as i have done for you and yours. I mean you must be getting bored of this discussion by now surely?

[KamonGuy2]

Well i have tried to be reasonable and smooth things over, i'm guessing you are still a little sore after feeling insulted, i applogise. so perhaps its best we stop discussing things as i feel you are taking things out of context in order to slate me. Perhaps we can discuss things when the tension has gone but right now i can't help but sense that your responses are driven by anger. I think you are attempting to entice me into further disscussion so you can further state your disapproval of anything i say. I hope you can understand this and i also hope you endevour to understand my standpoint as i have done for you and yours. I mean you must be getting bored of this discussion by now surely?
Not really. I just don't like off the cuff comments taht are not backed up
And yes I am driven by frustration and anger. If a martial art is poor or there is something wrong with it, then fine. But if I was criticizing a person who belonged to an organisation, I would state the name of the person rather than the organisation.

If you heard a news article that said that two unnamed McDonalds employees had been acting inappropriately, it would affect McDonalds as a whole. You would not know where the employees were, just that they worked at McDonalds.
Hence when newbies read that an instructor at Kamon 'is lacking in his chi sao' without knowing which class, it might put them off going.

This is one of the reasons I am annoyed. Your comment might have been off the cuff but it damages our reputation as a whole

[ed-swckf]

Not really. I just don't like off the cuff comments taht are not backed up
And yes I am driven by frustration and anger. If a martial art is poor or there is something wrong with it, then fine. But if I was criticizing a person who belonged to an organisation, I would state the name of the person rather than the organisation.

If you heard a news article that said that two unnamed McDonalds employees had been acting inappropriately, it would affect McDonalds as a whole. You would not know where the employees were, just that they worked at McDonalds.
Hence when newbies read that an instructor at Kamon 'is lacking in his chi sao' without knowing which class, it might put them off going.

This is one of the reasons I am annoyed. Your comment might have been off the cuff but it damages our reputation as a whole

Yeah but i also said there are good schools and teachers, that wasn't backed up, and i said that my commentry was not a valid way to form ones own opinion as kamon will differ from class to class. Being driven by frusrtration and anger can easily cloud ones thought and make the responses unwarrented. Now i coherently wrote that my experience wasn't a reflection of kamon as a whole but of an individual who just so happened to belong to kamon, because of this and because i understand that kamon has some very good teachers i encouraged people to visit there local kamon and let that be the deciding factor - you can't get fairer than that. I mentioned this experience only because i was asked for my experience of kamon, just as everyone else was. Now if everyone else mention kamon being great then my critique would be over shadowed as a one off, but surely we need to mention all the names of the people praised other wise it only has as much weight as my critique which is nonsense until backed up. If someone is put off by what someone says on a forum, especially when that person is urging them to find out for themselves and visit the class then that person is simply looking for reasons not to go to the class as opposed to looking for reasons to go to the class. Lets concentrate on the positives for a while, iwas telling people to go and check out kamon wing chun, thats a good thing.

You really don't need to be that worried about your reputation, if you did need to worry then coming accross more reasonable would help, i have appologised for upsetting you and i have explained that i understand why you were upset. Continually i have tried to explain my position but i was understanding in that due to the anger i had inadvertantly disturbed in you that you may not want to accept that. But perhaps now is a good point for you as a kamon representative to be receptive to the effort put into building bridges. Now i fully understand if you still would rather not but if that is the case then we have little to say, i mean we have both explained our thoughts and responded. We could be going round in circles forever if we carried on, so it would be better to end this and we can do that with an attempt to remove any bad feeling or we can get caught up in being angry at each other and make other people posting here feel less inclined to contribute.