Takagi Yoshin-ryu?

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Hello, anybody here practices any version of Takagi Yoshin-ryu? Any style, KJJR, Bujinkan, Jinenkan, Hontai Yoshin-ryu, Tanaka Fumon's Takagi Yoshin-ryu or any other doesn't matter. If possible I'd love to compare notes. My teacher once show all the katas that he know from this ryuha (about 85 plus from all levels shoden, sabaki, taisabaki, shime, okuden, moguri, mutodori) and I took notes profusely. And yet when I look at those notes again, I realized that I missed some of the upper level Moguri Kata.

Sensei also mentioned that people from different lines does techniques differently, that's why I'd love to compare notes with people from other groups. See how others move, or so to speak ;)

Thank you for your time!

[Fallen Ninja]

Yeah Takagi Yoshin Ryu is something that is practiced in the Bujinkan. You might want to put that on the Bujinkan forum to find out more details.

:ninja:

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I know, however the people at MT's ninjutsu forum seems to be more interested in debating ninja techniques and legitimacy stuff :(

So I post it here in hope that people whom are more interested in the Jujutsu style of Takagi Yoshin will take notice :)

[rutherford]

There are not many in the Bujinkan who will discuss kata in any detail online. It is true.

Personally, if I've done any Takagi Yoshin Ryu it was not pointed out to me as such.

And I don't take notes. I did for a while, but they were doing more harm than good.

[jujutsu_indonesia]

But why aren't you taking notes, Rutherford? I mean, this ryuha has 80-90 kata, how can you memorize them if not taking notes? Especially if you have a sensei like mine, who dislikes to answer questions :(

[Bigshadow]

Personally, if I've done any Takagi Yoshin Ryu it was not pointed out to me as such.

And I don't take notes.
Same here! :) No note taking. I don't think I could even begin to describe things well enough that it would make sense later. I have taken notes in other things and go back and read them years later and they make no sense.

Plus, if note taking is anything like taking pictures or video taping (which I have tried to do) it is way too distracting. I found out quickly that I would either have to TRAIN or take video, *I* cannot do both. So I prefer to TRAIN :D I don't remember exactly what we did last Monday, but I will likely recognize the feeling of it, if I do it again.

[rutherford]

None of them are important.

I'm sorry. We're going to come at this from different sides.

In Bujinkan training, there are a massive number of Kata. If you collect them, you'll have a full library . . . and not know how to use any of them. That's the pretty standard answer.

In my experience, what I took notes about what I saw with my limited understanding was often a hinderance and full of mistakes when I tried to recall from my notes. However, if I simply remember the name of the kata and somebody asked me to perform it later, I found that my movements would have grown in the meantime and been far better.

I still sometimes write stuff down, especially when I'm working on stuff by myself. I just never look at it later.

[arnisador]

Are these short kata, or lengthier ones (as in Karate, say)?

[Brian R. VanCise]

Arnisador,

They are short, in other words I would not say they are like a
Karate kata but more like several movements together. It could
be similar to doing the 1,2,3 of Trapping Hands or it could be
much more in depth.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com)

[arnisador]

Ah, OK--sort of like a "technique" in Kenpo, I guess. Thanks!

[rutherford]

Are these short kata, or lengthier ones (as in Karate, say)?

Take this page with a huge grain of salt. And don't try to learn from it. http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/sukisha/hon_tai_takagi_yoshin.html

[Fallen Ninja]

I will throw this out there for those that have studied TYR.

What I can recall is that you always maintain 3 points of contact with the agressor. Its pretty hard to describe anyway else on forum.

:ninja:

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Take this page with a huge grain of salt. And don't try to learn from it. http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/sukisha/hon_tai_takagi_yoshin.html

Uh. Thanks, I don't think the descriptions corresponds exactly with my notes. But it's interesting to see how others describe the katas or so to speak.

Though must say, I think these kind of Kata descriptions should be shared by private emails only, am I right?

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I will throw this out there for those that have studied TYR.

What I can recall is that you always maintain 3 points of contact with the agressor. Its pretty hard to describe anyway else on forum.

:ninja:

You mean controlling three kyushos when subduing the attacker? I recall (searching notes) ah, here, sensei said "in Dougaeshi and Kasumidori, note that you actually control the opponent's wrist, elbow and shoulder joint at the same time".

[rutherford]

I see some differences in the descriptions myself from what I've seen elsewhere. And, I noticed that there's several kata missing from the sections that are on that website, and large groups of kata not mentioned.

I'll continue to pay little attention to that site. But I know it exists. There was another Bujinkan school who put their syllabus online with notes for each kata, but it's been pulled down recently. Sean Askew goes as far as putting detailed notes and video on his website. Not sure if he's got any TY up. You could check.

But, I'm not sure even private email is the right place to share this stuff. A lot of it has to be felt, even if you believe the information should be shared widely. Don Roley has a thread on this topic in the Ninjutsu section called Limits on Sharing Information.

[jujutsu_indonesia]

None of them are important.

In my experience, what I took notes about what I saw with my limited understanding was often a hinderance and full of mistakes when I tried to recall from my notes. However, if I simply remember the name of the kata and somebody asked me to perform it later, I found that my movements would have grown in the meantime and been far better.



Ah, ok, I understand what you mean now. I think I've been at the same situations as well. Once I look at my notes after the training and I realized that what I wrote doesn't make sense :(

Then I tried NOT to take notes at all, and worse, I remember even less!

Now I remedy the situation by taking notes and draw some pictorial description. For example, in the technique "Oikage Dori" I drew the picture of a guy chasing another guy and take him to the ground. That picture will help me to remember the general description of the Kata.

But still, not all of my drawings make sense :(

[jujutsu_indonesia]

But, I'm not sure even private email is the right place to share this stuff. A lot of it has to be felt, even if you believe the information should be shared widely.

I think these stuff should be shared between friends :) But not really in public places.

But you are right, even the most detailed descriptions would be totally useless to people who does not know the basics and the "feel" of the Ryuha. Imagine this: "Uke attacks with migi fudoken to Tori's suigetsu. Tori avoids to the inside, apply atemi to uke's asagasumi and execute Onikudaki to Uke's migi te". I am sure 99% of non-Takagi Yoshin people out there won't have a clue of what we are talking about!

[rutherford]

Funny.

We hit there all the time, but I had to look up asagasumi to find out what the japanese word meant. Now I know what they're talking about, as well that the word is a flower and means "Morning Mist".

I consider that bit of knowledge worth more than having read your description.

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Yes, true. Almost all of the kyusho locations in Takagi Yoshin-ryu are coded using such undecipherable names. "Kimon" and "Ura Kimon" means "demon gate" and "reverse demon gate". "Suigetsu" means "moon reflected over water". And many many others. I have a copy of the Kyusho chart, and even my friend whom are Japanese are baffled with the language used there :)

I was told by sensei, that this approach is taken so that if someone stole the densho, he still won't have a clue of the description of the techniques.

With the same token, I think someone who stole my notes will not be able to understand what techniques I'm describing ;)

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Very interesting but last Friday I talked to my sensei and ask him about Takagi. Usually he doesn't like to answer too many questions or to repeat a technique many times, but last Friday he said something like "Takagi Katas? It's simply 90 ways of explaining how to use basic techniques in fighting situations. How to use omote gyaku, hon gyaku, ura gyaku, take ori, onikudaki, gansekinage etc in historical situations. Then its our job to learn them well so that we could, if pressed, apply them to modern situations".

What do you think, friends?

[rutherford]

Was he speaking to you, or of generalities?

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Just to me I guess. I am the one who ask many questions :)

[kihon_gent]

To get back to your original question: would these be helpful?

http://www.jinenkan.com/Shopping/shopdisplayproducts.asp?page=18

Ninety files about Takagi Yoshin Ryu by Manaka Sensei himself...

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Thank you! I have some downloads from Manaka sensei. However the link you gave doesn't work :(

[kihon_gent]

I just noticed as well.

Try:

http://www.jinenkan.com/en/ --> For Sale --> Go to shopping cart --> Browse --> Weekly downloads --> Takagi Yoshin Ryu series.

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Thanks! I am browsing now :)