Elbow Strike - One Arm versus Two

[FearlessFreep]

I've worked elbow strikes before, usually just a single arm. Tonight I was thinking about forms and in particular the elbow strikes in Taegeuk Oh-Jang.

One thing on my mind was that my priotr instructor taught me on the two elbow strikes to bring the fist into the opposite palm as you strike My current instructor teaches it to bring your opposite hand around to cup your fist first, and then strike. Not botthering about which is 'correct' I was wondering which would be a perferrerd way of doing an elbow strike whenen needed. Does one generate more power through better stability or grounding? Are there other issues?

[TigerWoman]

I've worked elbow strikes before, usually just a single arm. Tonight I was thinking about forms and in particular the elbow strikes in Taegeuk Oh-Jang.

One thing on my mind was that my priotr instructor taught me on the two elbow strikes to bring the fist into the opposite palm as you strike My current instructor teaches it to bring your opposite hand around to cup your fist first, and then strike. Not botthering about which is 'correct' I was wondering which would be a perferrerd way of doing an elbow strike whenen needed. Does one generate more power through better stability or grounding? Are there other issues?

I guess we do it the second way, at the same time in form and it probably quicker than a two step. I think it is to give support to the arm. We also do a double elbow strike in a self-defense technique-backwards with no fist support as one fist is already on the way to the groin. TW

[FearlessFreep]

I guess we do it the second way, at the same time in form and it probably quicker than a two step

The first way is a one step motion also, you are swinging the elbow around and meeting the hand that is already up for the knife hand block I deallym your fist should meet your palm at the same instant your elbow strikes the target. Actualy, the way I do it now I think is slower because since you are in a knife hand block, you have to bring that hand back to cup the first at your side and then swing into the strike.

I hope my word illustrations are adequate

I was wondering if there was a mechanical advantage to either motion. Swinging while cupping the fist versus swingif handed and bracing with the palm as you make conact

We also do a double elbow strike in a self-defense technique-backwards with no fist support as one fist is already on the way to the groin

Yes, I also learned a single handed vertical elbow straight into the solar-plexus (as the other hand is blocking and trapping in incoming hook or swinging punch)

[tshadowchaser]

speaking from a non TDK approach
I always want one hand free to block, grab, strike.
Cupping the hands puts both hands in a posistion where they can not do anything else at the moment
As for power I get more out of the one arm

[FearlessFreep]

well that's another related discussion, do you drill the elbow strike for one or two arms or both, and again what s the mechanical advantage?

Part of this is that I'm seeing more and more motions in forms I do that speak to a wider array of techniques encompassing the total art then I was previously aware of, and I'm looking at ways to take those motions out of the forms and see them as fighting techniques and explore how to use them effectively.

Also, do you try to aim the elbow to 'hit' or to 'swipe'. Sometimes on my bag it's a solid 'whap', sometimes I rack the end of my elbow across the target in more of a raking/cutting motion. The difference is quite intentional on my part but I was curious if there were recommendations on how to approach using that strike.

Thanks

[Marginal]

With something like a front strike, where your elbow's ending up straight in front of you, with your forearm parallel to your shoulders there's no real mechanical advantage is bringing your other arm into the motion. You don't even need windup to deliver a solid strike in that case.

[Zepp]

There's one thing that I think needs to be said about this elbow attack in forms (any forms that use this movement). The reason that one hand cups the other hand isn't for a gain in power. It's because this movement doubles as part of a grabbing technique.


Also, do you try to aim the elbow to 'hit' or to 'swipe'. Sometimes on my bag it's a solid 'whap', sometimes I rack the end of my elbow across the target in more of a raking/cutting motion. The difference is quite intentional on my part but I was curious if there were recommendations on how to approach using that strike.


I usually think of elbow strikes being used to 'hit," as in land a solid blow and break a bone, or stun my opponent. The swiping/slashing motion can be used to open up a cut on an opponents face, as seen in some MMA and Muay Thai matches. (There's a reason elbows strikes aren't usually allowed in tournaments.)

[FearlessFreep]

With something like a front strike, where your elbow's ending up straight in front of you, with your forearm parallel to your shoulders there's no real mechanical advantage is bringing your other arm into the motion

OK, I think I see that. That mirrors the other post fomr ts saying he doesn't need to brace to add power

How about on...don't know what to call it, maybe a 'reverse elbow', when your hitting with the back of the elbow, on the upper arm side? I've practiced this both sometimes when because of an early technique I find myself a little turned away from the target and as part of a self-defense move my instructor has us work on. Assuming you are relatively perpendicular in stance to your target, you can strike with the back of the elbow of the arm closest to the target, or you can spin your back to the target and strike with the back of the elbow of the arm that was further away from the target. That's just a description of the direction of the strike. Anyway, in that reverse elbow, if you are driving the elbow into he target, one thing I see is to cup the fist of the striking arm in the palm of the opposite arm and use the opposite arm to drive the striking arm into the target. Is this sensible? I mean, can you really get more drive that way? or by bracing the arm along he direction of impact are you bracing the striking weapon so you get more solidness and therefore more energy into the target instead of back into your own arm/shoulder

I was trying this out this morning and one alternative I worked on for the 'backward elbow' was to not brace the striking arm with the other arm but instead spin fast and slash with the elbow and follow up with a hook punch or elbow from the other arm as well

There's one thing that I think needs to be said about this elbow attack in forms (any forms that use this movement). The reason that one hand cups the other hand isn't for a gain in power. It's because this movement doubles as part of a grabbing technique.

Interesting. I had no thought of that. Could you describe such an application? (As I mentioned, I'm seeing in forms a sort of stylized represntation of the movements of the art and attempting to find those movements and look at them as effective fighting movements, but there is a lot *in* those movements that I don't see so it helps to have others describe the movements they understand from some of the abstractions presented in the forms)


I usually think of elbow strikes being used to 'hit," as in land a solid blow and break a bone, or stun my opponent. The swiping/slashing motion can be used to open up a cut on an opponents face, as seen in some MMA and Muay Thai matches.

Or in other words, both work :) For different uses

Thanks

[Shu2jack]

Interesting, I was never taught the two armed elbow strike like I think you guys are describing it. Unless I am reading you descriptions wrong :(

When executing our elbow strikes to the front, the lead hand grabs the invisible head in front of us and the rear hand does the elbow strike. As the strike is executed, the grabbing hand (which is open the entire time) pulls back as the elbow moves forward so the palm of the grabbing hand "smacks" the elbow.

In our forms, the idea is you are grabbing onto the guy and pulling them towards you as you move forward to execute the elbow strike. I prefer to use the same thing when board breaking, minus grabbing the board or the holders.

[FearlessFreep]

In the move in the form I'm thinking of, here is the final position
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/TKskill/simage/tg5_10.jpg

Note that the fist of the striking arm is braced in the palm of the other hand. My original question was at what point do you get the fist into the palm, at the moment of impact or before the swing, or rather, my real question is, does it matter for practical usage? (or I guess now I'm wondering if it shuold be done at all)

Later in the same form is this move... http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/TKskill/simage/tg5_16_2.jpg

which comes after a punch and is supposed to be grabbing the head and pulling it into the elbow.

And thanks to everyone's input

[allpet]

There's one thing that I think needs to be said about this elbow attack in forms (any forms that use this movement). The reason that one hand cups the other hand isn't for a gain in power. It's because this movement doubles as part of a grabbing technique.

Exactly! The "hidden" technique is an elbow joint lock. :ultracool

I would never grab my own hand if it was for real. That would be like fighting with one hand in my pocket.

[TigerWoman]

I guess we do it the second way, at the same time in form and it probably quicker than a two step

The first way is a one step motion also, you are swinging the elbow around and meeting the hand that is already up for the knife hand block


The hand-palm position simulates bringing the head into the elbow strike. TW

[jfarnsworth]

If I had to do one or the other it would be the one in the second picture.

If I had my own preference it would be neither of them.

[Gemini]

Regarding the first elbow strike (palkup dollyo chigi) though, I've always preferred to grab my fist first and then swing my elbow while stepping in. Reason being, if you swing your elbow and grab at the same time, you many miss from time to time, loosing the support. I would also prefer to hit square as opposed to "swipe" because again, with the limited range of the strike, it's much easier to miss your target and leave your ribs prone, because your whole body is in motion. Just my own preference.

As far as which is correct, in poomses, correctness is based on the end result, not so much the method of getting there. Throughout the poomses, you'll see many examples of this and they're all "correct" as long as the ending result is correct. When you get to Pal-jang, you'll use the same strike with no arm support, followed by a back fist. You'll feel the difference in the power of the strikes and the methods used to make them.

[FearlessFreep]

I would also prefer to hit square as opposed to "swipe" because again, with the limited range of the strike, it's much easier to miss your target and leave your ribs prone, because your whole body is in motion. Just my own preference.

That's a very good mechanical observation I had not thought of. Thanks


As far as which is correct, in poomses, correctness is based on the end result, not so much the method of getting there.

Agreed, I didn't want to get into which one was 'correct' from an artistic standpoint, more wondering if either was more effective if lifted from the form and applied to an opponent.

You'll feel the difference in the power of the strikes and the methods used to make them.

Is this a difference in the power of using an arm support versus none based on what the support gives you? Or is it something in the shoulder twist? Or should I wait for that chapter in my book as it will make more sense as I read the story through?

[Zepp]

Is this a difference in the power of using an arm support versus none based on what the support gives you? Or is it something in the shoulder twist? Or should I wait for that chapter in my book as it will make more sense as I read the story through?

I don't believe there's a difference in power. The difference is in how your arm feels if your elbow hits a not-so-soft part of your opponents body. Personally I throw elbow strikes without the supporting arm so that I have one arm still protecting my head. And most of the power in this strike should come from the hip rather than the shoulder.

[Gemini]

Or should I wait for that chapter in my book as it will make more sense as I read the story through?
Actually, I was going to reply to that until I read your last sentence. And as usual, you're very observant. Experience is the best teacher and the answer to this is no exception. Showing curiosity and patience in the same post gives me the impression you're the type of student most instructors love to have.

[Miles]

Probably not a very satisfying answer, but at the Kukkiwon, GM Lee said that some of the techniques in the poomsae (and we were working on TG#5 at the time) may not be realistic, but are done for artistic purposes. The one example I can specifically recall him discussing is the side kick with simultaneous backfist in TG#5-if you are sidekicking someone, you likely are not able to hit them with a backfist at the same time (of course, you could if you kick them low enough, but the poomsae calls for a middle level kick).

That said, GM Lee demonstrated the first elbow strike as the fist of the elbowing arm hitting the knifehand block's palm at the point of impact. The target elbow strike after the simultaneous sidekick/backfist ends with fist of the striking elbow slightly below the elbow of the target palm arm.

Miles

[allpet]

The one example I can specifically recall him discussing is the side kick with simultaneous backfist in TG#5-if you are sidekicking someone, you likely are not able to hit them with a backfist at the same time (of course, you could if you kick them low enough, but the poomsae calls for a middle level kick).

You don't do the techniques at the same time when it's for real.

The sidekick is to the inside of the knee.

After the knee has buckled you perform the backfist (or hammerfist) to an appropriate target on the head like the temple or GB 20.

[ajs1976]

Taeguk Oh Jang is the form I am working on now and as I practicing in class last night, I was thinking about this discussion.


I don't believe there's a difference in power. The difference is in how your arm feels if your elbow hits a not-so-soft part of your opponents body. Personally I throw elbow strikes without the supporting arm so that I have one arm still protecting my head. And most of the power in this strike should come from the hip rather than the shoulder.

I don't think that elbow strike makes since unless you look at it in context. The move right before it is a knife hand block with the left hand, so the left hand is out in a guard position already. The right elbow is brought around and right before the impact, the hands connect and the left arms pulls on the right.

I don't think pulling with the left arm adds strengh to the elbow strike directly, but stabilizes the shoulder making the strike more rigid.

As far as hitting a hard head with the elbow, I have been taught to rotate my forarm when hitting a hard target, so the muscle hits the target and not the bone.

[Last Fearner]

Hi everyone,

Here is my take on teaching the elbow strikes.
Forms are for practice of individual skills of each isolated move. Forms are considered "simulated street fight" but not exactly the same. The moves can be plucked from the form and used in self defense exactly as they are done in the form, but for anyone to think, "would I follow this block with this attack," is not the purpose of forms. That is where the artistic aspect applies as forms are legitimate techniques arranged in a creative display.
:-partyon:

As for the elbows of Oh Jang (Taegeuk 5th form), there are two applications used. At the top of the form (movements 10 and 12) are front elbow strikes to the body (palkup Momtong Ap Chigi). The question of why the opposite hand is used varies depending on if you use the cover first then strike method, or hit the palm as you strike. Both are legitimate techniqes and serve a different purpose.

To grab the fist first does add power to the strike for this reason. It is best to have your striking hand near your body with your striking elbow protruding forward in a firm position. If you are thrusting your elbow forward, and pulling your forearm in, one action is working slightly against the other. It might not be very noticeable, but when you grab the fist and hold it to your body, you are allowing all of the muscles of the striking side to drive forward without having to hold the forearm in position. Also, you are helping to "whip" the elbow strike around faster by pulling in on the fist or wrist.

For the other variation, when you strike your palm with the fist, you are allowing all of your force to enter the target, then stopping your attack without overshooting and leaving your ribs vulnerable. This also helps to follow up with a second technique of the same hand (back fist for instance). This is the same concept as when bowlers continue their arm upward after releasing the ball. Once the ball has left the hand, what difference does it make what you do with that arm? The fact is, if you stop your arm short, you have already made the decision and are contracting muscles before the release, thus affecting the power of the throw. Same in a golf swing. Here, we do not want the arm to overswing the target, yet you do not want the muscles of your striking arm to start pulling back before you make contact. Thus the other hand acts as a stopper. ]:roflmao:[

Another reason for both movements is the reactionary torquing of muscles. When you cover first, you are twising everything in one circular direction, and pulling the opposite hand back, somewhat like you do in a single punch. In the other version, when you meet the fist with the palm, you are expanding your chest muscles, then pulling them together in opposite directions to facilitate the drive forward. This is like the "butterfly" exercise weight machine where you squeeze the two arms together.

Movements 16 and 18 in the middle of Oh jang have the palm pulling in to simulate drawing the opponent's body, or head into the strike (as others have indicated here). This is very devestating in real life as it gives the head no room to bounce away. Imagine breaking boards with a front elbow strike and have the board holders bend their elbows on impact. Their proper suppot from behind stabilizes the target as does your hand behind the opponent's head. Also, when breaking boards, I usually use the "meaty" portion of the forearm rather than the elbow bone which would likely shatter (for those who are not yet experienced on this subject). In street defense, most targets on a person's body are not strong enough to shatter the elbow.

Now, as for self defense application from Poomse to street, most of these moves are finishing techniques, so they would more realistically be used after you have dazed or wounded your opponent. In that aspect, forms show the techniques out of context, but they are used for self defense, and forms help to improve those skills. It is true that in real life, you would use the elbows in a variety of ways, and usually keep your opposite hand free for blocking, and grasping the opponent's body. However, when the finishing move is ready, this is how you would do it - - so practice both ways.

On the subject of the rear elbow (or backward elbow) and side elbow strike to the rear, these are often reinforced with the palm pushing, or striking the fist. This is for the purpose of returning the "Reaction Force" of the initial strike back into the target so that it is not lost. They make a hammer with a hallow head and a floating piece of metal inside which has the same effect. It drives the hammer head down with a secondary force that prevents the hammer from bouncing back up from the Reaction Force of the strike.:hammer:

Also, someone mentioned the "backfist" with the sidekick. Ever since I was a beginner student, I was taught to do the side kick with two different hand positions. One with the guards up for protection, and the other with the backfist along side the leg, and the reaction hand pulled back to the hip to stabilize for more power. In this case, the backfist is not intended to strike a target. Its motion is there to help keep the upper body stable, so that the lower body can exert more power forward with the kick.
:btg:

These are just my perspectives, and I realize others approach training differently. I hope I do not offend anyone with my lengthy explanation. I don't think I am disagreeing with anyone here, just sharing my personal insights.

Respectfully,
Sr. Master Eisenhart