Trying to find new school is frustrating

[Tarot]

Even though I'm taking some trial classes at a new school, I still want to check out as many schools in my area as possible. This is where my frustration lies. Most of the schools say that they want people to make appointments to see the school, talk with the owner, and ask questions (I got this info via their websites). However I have been emailing and calling to set up appointments and getting no where. None of the schools have returned my calls or my emails. How am I to set up an appointment if I can't get a hold of anyone?

Should I just show up at the schools and hope I can speak with someone? Should I keep calling? I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. When you all were looking for schools what did you do?

[Flying Crane]

Just show up. If you are polite they should at least allow you to watch a class so you can see what it is like. Probably there will be someone who can talk to you after class.

[terryl965]

Just show up they will make time for you. the want your money you are the consumer remember.
Also let them know about the website and phone cals and see what kind of response they give you.
Terry

[Kacey]

Just show up. If you are polite they should at least allow you to watch a class so you can see what it is like. Probably there will be someone who can talk to you after class.
This is a good point - any reasonable class will have someone (instructor or senior student) who will be able to talk to you unless there is a special event going on. And if they don't... well, that will tell you something about the class that you need to know as well. If they won't talk to drop-in potential students, then you probably don't want to join that class.

[jdinca]

Where are you located? There's probably members in your area that can steer you to some good schools.

[Tarot]

Thanks guys! I feel so lucky that I can come here and get guidance. :D I put in another call to a school today and spoke to someone! I have an appointment with them tomorrow evening. Whee!

jdinca, I live in Ohio just North of Columbus. I'm hoping to find something within 15/20 minutes of my house.

The website issue seems to be common for my area so far. For example, the current school where I'm taking some trial classes, nothing on the website seems to be current info. The schedule on the site doesn't match the schedule the Master gave me when I visited. I used the email address provided and never got a response. One night I asked a BB about two classes that are on the schedule to get some info about them(to see if I could/should take them) and she told me she didn't know anything about them. That struck me as a little odd but again since I'm new to the scene maybe it isn't so odd.

[stephen]

...the want your money you are the consumer remember...


Avoid any school with this attitude.

[Andrew Green]

Avoid any school with this attitude.

Impossible, all full-time schools have this attitude. They have to, it's what keeps them running classes. If they don't, they will be closing the doors in a few months because they can't pay the bills.

Martial arts schools are businesses, don't kid yourself into thinking they are something sacred and beyond that. For the owner, this is his/her job. This is how he feeds himself and his family, this is how he pays his mortgage. He wants your money, it's what he lives off of.

[ajs1976]

Assuming the schedule is right one the website, try to call between classes. Someone should be there and hopefully can take a minute to talk.

If you can't get a hold of someone, just go to the school and sit and watch a class. If no one stops to talk to you or if you don't like what you see, move on to the next school.

[stephen]

Impossible, all full-time schools have this attitude. They have to, it's what keeps them running classes. If they don't, they will be closing the doors in a few months because they can't pay the bills.

Martial arts schools are businesses, don't kid yourself into thinking they are something sacred and beyond that. For the owner, this is his/her job. This is how he feeds himself and his family, this is how he pays his mortgage. He wants your money, it's what he lives off of.

You said it, not me....

I agree totally, and I stand behind my last comments. Draw whatever conclusions you may.

[arnisador]

I live in Ohio just North of Columbus. I'm hoping to find something within 15/20 minutes of my house.

I think Mao (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?u=60) teaches in that area, if Modern Arnis might interest you:
http://www.modernarnisofohio.com/

I have just shown up at schools where an appt. is expected. You risk having this be perceived as rude, but can often plead ignorance. I find that appointments are much more common now; I suspect that NAPMA or the like has been suggesting them. It annoys me, as I prefer to just show up and watch a class rather than get a sales pitch without the class there.

[jdinca]

You said it, not me....

I agree totally, and I stand behind my last comments. Draw whatever conclusions you may.

So your opinion is that any school that wants to make money should be avoided? Does that mean that all schools should be "second jobs" and open only a few hours a day, or a few days a week? Or be run out of somebody's garage?

None of those scenarios are bad, or wrong but they are not the only way to provide quality instruction. I would say that a full time school needs student income to stay full time but if they don't provide a quality product, then they will be gone in a matter of time.

Different strokes for different folks. There is no one method to provide instruction. What should matter is the quality of that instruction, not whether the school is also a successful money making business.

[FearlessFreep]

I think what was lost in all that was simply the idea that to the teacher you are someone they want at your school (as an abstraction, maybe when tey get to know someone they may have different feelings : ) You can phrase it as 'teacher/student' or 'seller/buyer' or 'businessman/customer' but the bottom line is that most people who teach will be welcoming to people who want to come and as such will work to accomdate those seeking their services. I thought it was an apt if wry way of phrasing it to make a point, but the point was that if you make a forward effort to seek out what they are offering, the will be very welcoming. Terry just used consumeristic phrasing to drive the point home, and to some the phrasing is probably applicable, but the point behind the phrasing is applicable to most,, even if the verbage is not

[Tarot]

Well my meeting tonight with another school didn't go so well. The Master didn't seem to like my long list of questions that I had. The school also offered the "guaranteed (insert color here) belt in X months" type of contract, which I have learned from this site is a big red flag.

The school also doesn't do much in the way of practicing kicking on targets/pads. He said that maybe 30% of the time they actually use a target. Practicing landing those kicks is important to me, so I want to know how often using targets (pads, bags, etc.) is done in class. The Master kept making faces when I asked questions on that topic, like it was an odd thing to want to know. He said they only kick actual targest about 30% of the time. Does that seem really low to anyone else?

The one thing that really struck me as odd, I had an appointment with the Master and according to the class schedule, it was at the same time the adult class started for the evening. I spoke with him for about 1/2 an hour. The adult class waited the entire time. There were some BB in class and some students who had "assistant instructor" on their jackets. Shouldn't one of them have started class? Or shouldn't the Master have excused himself to tell someone to start class? They missed a whole 1/2 hour of class and the class is only 50 minutes long! I felt really bad when I left because I was responsible for them not starting class on time.

I'm starting to get a little discouraged because I haven't come across any school that seems to have everything I want. :(

[bluemtn]

First of all, don't worry too much about popping in without an appointment. I've done it a couple of times when looking. Like it was stated earlier play dumb, and if need be say you've tried contacting them several times. They aren't going to chase you out the door for no appointment. Also, what classes are you looking for? Kicking bags- is it that they kick a lot during class, but not so much on bags? If it's the case, then that's a concern. The classes I've seen in my search, the head instructor did allow the BB or assistant instructor (i.e. brown belt) lead the class while they attended to guests; however, I can't honestly say that it is that way everywhere. Anyone- is it that way?

[Tarot]

Also, what classes are you looking for? Kicking bags- is it that they kick a lot during class, but not so much on bags? If it's the case, then that's a concern.

I only had a little bit of TKD. I'm not looking for a specific discipline (although mixing Hapkido with something appeals to me). Kicking bags, your statement is exactly what I mean. It seems more schools focus on air kicking than having the student actually kick something. To me this just doesn't seem OK. How can one know what a kick feels like or stregthen their legs if they never kick something?

[stephen]

So your opinion is that any school that wants to make money should be avoided? Does that mean that all schools should be "second jobs" and open only a few hours a day, or a few days a week? Or be run out of somebody's garage?

Yes.


None of those scenarios are bad, or wrong but they are not the only way to provide quality instruction.

Maybe, maybe not. I allow for the possibility, but I think it unlikely.



I would say that a full time school needs student income to stay full time but if they don't provide a quality product, then they will be gone in a matter of time.

This is where I disagree. I think that they will go out of buisness if they do not provide what the students WANT, which is not necessarly a "quality product", or at least not a "quality martial arts product" maybe it's a "quality make people feel good product".


Different strokes for different folks. There is no one method to provide instruction.

Totally agree.


What should matter is the quality of that instruction, not whether the school is also a successful money making business.

True. I totally agree. However, I've found that the quality and the attitude is HIGHLY correlated.

[jdinca]

Sorry you feel that way, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Although it is harder to maintain quality in a larger school that is a business, I don't find the two mutually exclusive.

[bluemtn]

I only had a little bit of TKD. I'm not looking for a specific discipline (although mixing Hapkido with something appeals to me). Kicking bags, your statement is exactly what I mean. It seems more schools focus on air kicking than having the student actually kick something. To me this just doesn't seem OK. How can one know what a kick feels like or stregthen their legs if they never kick something?

Agreed. Take a look into what is available in your area, do some research (and ask those around here in MT) about things that interest you. There are a number of resources on the net as well. If you don't always want to participate, observe a class. If you like it, then talk to the instructor about an introductory lesson. Sometimes you can get a feel for what you want by watching. I wish you luck, and feel free to ask more questions.

[bluemtn]

And keep us posted!

[Tarot]

Thanks tkdgirl! :) This is why I'm getting discouraged because I've been searching my area for a school since last Nov. and I'm not coming up with anything that seems to fit all my needs/wants. I don't want to settle but it seems so far that this might be what I have to do. :( *sigh*

[bluemtn]

Are there other schools a little further out that you would be willing to go to? How far are you willing/ able to travel? I'm not a big fan on settling, myself.

[Tarot]

I think I am going to have to try and find a school a little further out. I took a class tonight at the school where I'm in the trial program and I don't think I'll be going back. I'm so bummed and frustrated.

For example, tonight the class was 1.5 hours long. Supposed to be 1 hour of TKD and .5 hour of HKD. For the first .5 of class we did warm up stretches and forms. Then for the remaining time (which was an hour) we did one steps. I only knew 3 and had to ask to learn the remaining two. One steps (the one step self-defense moves) for an hour seems like busy work, IMO. We did no kicking. None, not even air kicks tonight. I didn't even break a sweat. During this time the Master just walked around and chit chatted with people. Then for about the last 15 minutes of class he got out some flashy weapon and started twirling it around. My partner was so enthralled with this that he stopped working on the one steps with me. I left class feeling annoyed and cheated.

Also, when I was first speaking the to Master about his school, he told me that he teaches all the classes. I have shown up for a scheduled class twice and he wasn't there, a BB taught me. And I was the only person in class. He wasn't there for the previous class either, it was a BB teaching. So how can he tell me he teaches every class when I have seen that he doesn't? I also over heard him speaking with someone about classes today and he said it takes about 2 years to reach BB. That seemed short to me.

I want a school that is going to kick my ass. I want to break a sweat when I take class. I want to learn and do constructive workouts every class. I'm very serious about getting into training and yet I can't seem to find anything to fit my needs.

arnisador, thanks for the link! Sadly, that school is a little over half an hour away from me, which is a bit too far to travel.

I guess it's back to the drawing board, and keep searching!

[Flying Crane]

I think I am going to have to try and find a school a little further out. I took a class tonight at the school where I'm in the trial program and I don't think I'll be going back. I'm so bummed and frustrated.

For example, tonight the class was 1.5 hours long. Supposed to be 1 hour of TKD and .5 hour of HKD. For the first .5 of class we did warm up stretches and forms. Then for the remaining time (which was an hour) we did one steps. I only knew 3 and had to ask to learn the remaining two. One steps (the one step self-defense moves) for an hour seems like busy work, IMO. We did no kicking. None, not even air kicks tonight. I didn't even break a sweat. During this time the Master just walked around and chit chatted with people. Then for about the last 15 minutes of class he got out some flashy weapon and started twirling it around. My partner was so enthralled with this that he stopped working on the one steps with me. I left class feeling annoyed and cheated.

Also, when I was first speaking the to Master about his school, he told me that he teaches all the classes. I have shown up for a scheduled class twice and he wasn't there, a BB taught me. And I was the only person in class. He wasn't there for the previous class either, it was a BB teaching. So how can he tell me he teaches every class when I have seen that he doesn't? I also over heard him speaking with someone about classes today and he said it takes about 2 years to reach BB. That seemed short to me.

I want a school that is going to kick my ass. I want to break a sweat when I take class. I want to learn and do constructive workouts every class. I'm very serious about getting into training and yet I can't seem to find anything to fit my needs.

arnisador, thanks for the link! Sadly, that school is a little over half an hour away from me, which is a bit too far to travel.

I guess it's back to the drawing board, and keep searching!

Sounds like this is not the school for you. Keep looking.

As far as a 30 minute drive to get to a school, for about a half a year I travelled 90 miles each way to train where I wanted to train, twice a week. If you want it bad enough, you will find a way to be there. You need to decide how badly you want it.

[bluemtn]

On average, I travel anwhere from 20 to 40 minutes (depending on where I sart out from- sometimes less). It helps too if you can find someone to carpool with (like a friend nearby).

[Carol]

Sometimes I type some ideas down and I realize that I just cannot be brief at all.

Tarot, when I chose a school, I made a decision based on factors that I never even though of, until I tried to do a school search. My team was given orders to take a mandatory 1 hour lunch break every day, and an hour with nothing to do at that place was torturous. So, I decided to train instead.

The most important thing to me at the time was distance from my job (I had to make it there and back within 1 hour) and lunchtime classes. I did some googling and found four schools within a suitable distance. I called them up in order of proximity.

The first school was different, it seemed to be a sort of MMA facility, according to it's web site. I visited it in the afternoon...it was basically a modern boxing gym. If I were up for a killer workout...I actually would have been tempted to join, but I was really looking for something more with more Asian influences. I scratched them off my list.

The second school had gone out of business. I scratched them off my list.

The third school was a Kenpo school. They had a huge website with lots of information about the school and the art. The school didn't seem overly commercialized, and there was a very family-oriented feel to the information. I had read a little bit about Kenpo, and it sounded very intriguing to me.

The fourth school was also a Kenpo school. Their website was less detailed, and their location was the furthest away from me, so I put them on the back burner.

I tried several times to call the third school. I always got an answering machine. I started picking through more of their website and found a page where they posted the school's rules. At that point, I almost shelved the idea of training.

There were rules about sparring, contact, weapons and a notable ban on horseplay. That started getting me a little worried. I was not in very good shape, and athletics has always been an area where I have performed poorly.

I was also surprised that I had to wrestle my training against the beliefs of my faith. This is something highly personal to me. I also thing other people's beliefs are also personal and deserving of respect. For that reason, I do not wish to discuss my faith or what I believe in or why I believe it. I'll just say...there were two rules at the dojo that were not unreasonable rules. One was a prohibition of all types of jewelry, the other was the mandate of an extremely specific type of bowing.

Another person of my faith suggested that I talk to the sensei about my faith. I was very reluctant to, because I did not want to seem disrespectful to my classmates. Nor did I want my personal beliefs exposed in such a fashion. He kept urging me to call, so I did, two more times. Answering machine, answering machine. I scratched the school of my list.

By the time I called the forth school, I felt like I didn't want to train at all. I didn't want to feel seperated from my faith. I didn't want to get hurt and banged up. I kept having these flashbacks of times I was in any kind of athletic class...the perpetually picked-last-in-gym class kid became the woman that simply could not follow or keep up with a group fitness class. It's not that I'm a stupid person...engineers typically aren't...but I just really have a tough time with athletics.

I called the forth school up, a woman answered the phone. I mentioned I was interested in studying martial arts, and we started talking. And...she listened. A lot. She listened to my concerns about being out of shape. About not having any innate abilities. About my fear of getting hurt. She talked about other people in the class that have started with very diverse levels, and yet they have succeeded.

I realized when talking to her that she had this incredibly gentle, warm, supportive aura about her that I have seen in other accomplished martial artists. She had such good energy, and something about her was making me believe that she was a very trustworthy person.

Then I realized, she never talked about herself. She never talked about what the instructors did, or how great they were. She only mentioned what the students accomplished. How the students did.

I felt very comfortable with her. She never said anything that felt like a sales pitch. She didn't ask anything of me. She didn't talk about money. We continued our conversation, and it actually made me very emotional. I just couldn't seem to keep up with group classes, even though I tried. She said in a very honest tone that being a white belt was difficult, that it may be the hardest belt of all because everything is new. She gave me new examples of students that had succeeded. She said that the most important thing was to be in class. It was then that I realized that...instead of telling me that the instructors were experienced and patient...she was showing me how their experience and patience resulted in successful students.

We were on the phone for almost an hour.

I joined for a summer program, and really liked it. It worked well with my work schedule. By the time the summer was over, I loved the school so much that I signed a two year contract.

And then, things at work got worse, and I got laid off.

There was a legal (and ethical) way that I could have broken my contract under the circumstances. I didn't wnt to break it. And when the folks at my school immediately offered support upon hearing the news, I realize that I just couldn't leave. It was too much a part of me.

So now....I drive 45 minutes to work. At the end of the day, I drive 60 minutes to my dojo. After class, I drive 40 minutes to get home. And sometimes go on Saturday. Several people ask me why the heck don't I just study Karate right here in Salem...but I would be absolutely heartbroken if I had to leave my school behind to train someplace else.

I hope you find a school that you like very soon!

[evenflow1121]

I just walked in, spoke with several instructors, or well back then my dad did (I was 11), and eventually found a school where I had to look no further and stuck with it.

[arnisador]

Is there a local martial arts supply store, or a free weekly newspaper? Often they have flyers/ads for schools that don't advertise in the Yellow Pages. Stop in at a martial arts supply store and ask the owner about nearby schools.

[rutherford]

Well, I think I got pretty lucky with the Aikido class that's about a block down from my house. The mat fees are $30 for 3 months and the instructor seems to love what he does.

I just happened to hear about the class from a friend and showed up at the gym where they meet. There's no advertising, and the class is small but everybody seems genuinely interested. I had a lot of fun with them last night, and I'll be back.

Good luck with your search. You'll be surprised what you find if you turn over the right rock.

[Tarot]

I have a brand new list of MA schools to check out in my area. I have been researching and searching for a while and have complied a list that's 5 pages long. If I don't find a school with that something's wrong. :p

[terryl965]

Stephen I own and operate my school we are one of the best TKD schools in the State of Texas, I run a business and as I stated earlier the person coming into my school is the customer as so we are here to accomadate them to what they are looking for. We have sweveral different levels for all types of people some want tournaments others SD and others just a good hard workout. If you believe people today are in the Arts to go broke then you my friend need to be examine by a DR.. We have choosen to open our doors and try to teach what we where tought, but if we make no money than the doors will close for everybody. Society dictates the average cost of a product and my school charges way below the natioal average we sponsor about 25 family who cannot afford training and believe me if the Local business owners where not behind me we could not even do this for them, it cast to run a school, Lease, Electric, gas, phone, insurance, do you think we as MA'es do not have to pay to keep the doors open.

Every single person needs to find the right school for them and as you walk throught those doors when the head instructor tells you it free walk away, nothing is free in this world.

Terry

[bluemtn]

I'm glad you got a list together- hopefully (it should) help you by making it easier. When I started, I wrote my likes and dislikes for an art/ school.

[rutherford]

Every single person needs to find the right school for them and as you walk throught those doors when the head instructor tells you it free walk away, nothing is free in this world.

Sorry. I have to take exception to this statement. Many of the best instructors in my art are indeed free.

Ed Martin is one of the best in the country and most widely known and well-liked, and has always offered training for free at his school.

The head of the Bujinkan Dojo has always recommended that instructors have a life and work outside of training because of the importance of balance in one's life.

My training group leader in the Bujinkan charges only enough to pay for his training space. My Aikido instructor does the same. Neither make any money off of training.

Different strokes for different folks. There is no one method to provide instruction. What should matter is the quality of that instruction, not whether the school is also a successful money making business.

We have wandered far off topic. Anybody else feel this should be split into a new thread?

[Tarot]

We have wandered far off topic. Anybody else feel this should be split into a new thread?

Me :o

I didn't mean for the thread to take the turn it did. I just wanted to vent a bit at trying to find a school.

[bushidomartialarts]

You said it, not me....

I agree totally, and I stand behind my last comments. Draw whatever conclusions you may.

not here to pick a fight, but i run a full-time dojo. i undertand your concerns, stephen, and i'll be the first to admit that there are a lot of idjits out there running schools who are afraid to make the right decision because it might mean they lose a couple hundred dollars a month.

well, i'm not really the first to admit that, but i'll do it quickly if asked.

but there are many full-time dojos that provide excellent instruction and are run by people of great integrity. the dojo i came up in was one. i hope that mine is another.

the trick is to make sure that all your decisions are made for the right reasons. it isn't as though the burgers at your local pub are bad because the owner wants to make money. on the other hand, the burgers at mcdonald's are bad because the owner cares more about money than quality.

employee training at my school starts with our mission statement. "we do not run this school to make money. we make money so we can keep running this karate school."

it's a balancing act, to be sure. but i haven't lost yet making a decision with my integrity and art first and business concerns second. it makes the school a better place and if i lose one student because of it, i'll gain three from referrals because my students know they're getting value.

[tkd_jen]

employee training at my school starts with our mission statement. "we do not run this school to make money. we make money so we can keep running this karate school."


I like that! i guess maybe it is hard from a student standpoint to understand all that goes into the business. We just know that we pay $xx per month, some of us think it all goes directly to our instructors pockets when this is obviously not the case.

[tkd_jen]

Tarot,

How has the search gone? I have been dodging the issue of relocating to another city with my husband for the simple fact I would miss my TKD school SOOOO much!!! While I don't envy your predicament, I wish you the best in your search.

[stickarts]

keep patiently checking out schools. While location, cost etc.. are factors, you will get the right "feel" for the school when you find the right one for you.
You should have an option to try it for an introductory period before making a long term committment. avoid a school that tries to force you into a long term committment without trying it first.
I own a school and can understand both sides!
In some cases we have to be firm but in most cases we try and be flexible to make training as beneficial as possible for the student.

[tkd_jen]

You should have an option to try it for an introductory period before making a long term committment. avoid a school that tries to force you into a long term committment without trying it first.


Excellent point!!!!

[Tarot]

Stickarts, I definitly looked for schools that had a trial period. And I was looking for something longer than one class, because IMO I do not think one can get an accurate feel for a school after only one class.

TKD_Jen thank you so much for asking about me! :D I am pleased to say that I have found a school. :-partyon: I am now trying my hand at Arnis. :duel: My first class was excellent! I learned lots of moves and even got to do some knife work. It was so fun and all the people are wonderfully nice. The school is small so I definitly feel like I am getting great instruction and individual attention. YaY! It was such a long search that I'm so glad to have found a home. Maybe I should post about my experience of searching for a school and the people I came in contact with, I wonder if that will be helpful to others? :idea:

[stickarts]

We offer several different introductory packages such as 3 classes, one month and Two month periods. A student may also just enroll Month to Month although it is more expensive than 6 or 12 Month programs.
It is better for everyone to make sure that the student is happy before committing long term.
Arnis is great! Good luck with your search!

[rutherford]

Congrats, Tarot!

Have you had a chance to check out http://www.fmatalk.com/

[Tarot]

Uh oh, another discussion board to feed my addiction. :p I'm sure I'll be posting there soon! :D

[Rich Parsons]

I think Mao (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?u=60) teaches in that area, if Modern Arnis might interest you:
http://www.modernarnisofohio.com/

I have just shown up at schools where an appt. is expected. You risk having this be perceived as rude, but can often plead ignorance. I find that appointments are much more common now; I suspect that NAPMA or the like has been suggesting them. It annoys me, as I prefer to just show up and watch a class rather than get a sales pitch without the class there.


Tarot,

Have you check out the school that Arnisador mentioned. I have trained their once for a seminar. I like both Dan and Brian who are members here. Dan is the school owner and goes by MAO here. MAO stands for Modern Arnis of Ohio.

Good Luck

[Tarot]

Rich, that is indeed my new school. :D They are having a camp at the end of April if you are interested. :)

[Rich Parsons]

Rich, that is indeed my new school. :D They are having a camp at the end of April if you are interested. :)

I cannot confirm, but tell Dan he is 5 hours or so from me, and I might show up with a long time friend who has been out of the public eye, if I do show up.

[Carol]

Tarot, that is awesome that you found a new school! Yay!

Congratulations to you...hope you enjoy your new training.