Hook Swords

[kachi]

Does anyone have any knowledge, information, experience or good web sites containing technique, applications, use, history, what to look for so far as quality goes, I would greatly appreciate it.

[Flying Crane]

Most of the hook swords I have seen are of the low quality Modern Wushu variety. They are made of a very light steel sheeting that is not appropriate for a real weapon. They work well enough for Wushu forms, but don't confuse them for a real weapon. You could probably find them on most martial arts supplier websites.

I am unfortunately unable to point you in the direction for some combat quality hook swords.

As far as technique goes, I would suggest finding a good instructor. This is something that is best learned from someone who knows how to use it. A video or written material will not convey this information very well, and can't tell you when your technique needs improvement.

Also, Chinese weaponry is found within the context of a complete martial art. You may need to have training in the basics of the martial art before you are ready to learn the weaponry. If you haven't already done this, this would be the place to start. It is not something to pick up out of context, and think you can just begin to use it.

[kachi]

Thanx for the input Flying Crane. I might point out that I will be using this for Freestyle Karate. I actually found an instructor nearby that teaches hookswords but i'm yet to get into contact with him. I just thought I'd ask around the boards to find out a bit more before I make a commitment. If anyone else has some info please share.

[clfsean]

"Freestyle Karate"???? WTH??:xtrmshock

Like Flying Crane said... the hooks aren't a weapon that's common within CMA styles, let alone something "you just pick up". If you want to learn the hooks, go learn the CMA attached to them. Anybody can swing them around like mad, scream for 5 minutes straight & presume to have an idea about them or impress people who aren't familiar with them.

Go learn the CMA attached to them. You'll find more than you're looking for & will probably be happy with it.

[kachi]

"Freestyle Karate"???? WTH??:xtrmshock
What's so surprising about Freestyle Karate?

I' don't won't to learn them to impress anyone I just wanted to learn the kata and self defence aspects of it. But you guys are saying that it can't be used without knowing the CMA associated with it.
If i'm taught by a proper instructor that knows everything that there is to know about the hookswords, does that mean I won't be proficient enough to use them in my martial arts?

[Blindside]

This isn't really part of this discussion, but I thought I'd post pics of some very cool looking hookswords. I picked up these images of the net years ago, but I don't know where.

[kachi]

Thanks Blindeside appreciate the pics. The bottom pair look nice.

[Flying Crane]

This isn't really part of this discussion, but I thought I'd post pics of some very cool looking hookswords. I picked up these images of the net years ago, but I don't know where.

These look like they might actually be real. Very nice to see them. Thank you.

[Flying Crane]

What's so surprising about Freestyle Karate?

I' don't won't to learn them to impress anyone I just wanted to learn the kata and self defence aspects of it. But you guys are saying that it can't be used without knowing the CMA associated with it.
If i'm taught by a proper instructor that knows everything that there is to know about the hookswords, does that mean I won't be proficient enough to use them in my martial arts?

Well, your base is going to be different, but if the instructor is good he should be able to help you make the transition. Just understand that it is going to be different from what you have done before and you might need to work extra hard to capture the essence. Just don't end up doing the hook swords with a "karate" flavor, or you've got it wrong. The Chinese arts are more fluid and the weaponry works in the same manner.

[kachi]

Thankyou Flying Crane for your support, I will work very hard to capture the essentia of the Chinese art.
I understand how different something like Kung Fu is to Karate and the transition might be difficult at start but I believe with practise I can achieve my goals.
Also just one more question, Should a quality hook sword have a flexible hook?
If anyone else has infomation or an opinion to add please feel free.

[clfsean]

What's so surprising about Freestyle Karate?

Well actually nothing I guess when I think about what I've seen done to karate nowadays. My bad... knee jerk reaction. I always practiced JMA as that... JMA. Not blended or mixed & matched...



I' don't won't to learn them to impress anyone I just wanted to learn the kata and self defence aspects of it. But you guys are saying that it can't be used without knowing the CMA associated with it.

Yeah that's what I'm saying. It'd be like teaching you to drive a car by handing you the keys & patting you on the back saying have a good trip. CMA weaponry is very detailed & specific. It has its own energies & usages that are based on what CMA empty hand does. There are certain characteristics for weapons that without a base, you will not get.



If i'm taught by a proper instructor that knows everything that there is to know about the hookswords, does that mean I won't be proficient enough to use them in my martial arts?

Yep... because the weapon & MA won't match. You can patchwork stuff together, but it looks like it in the end... patchwork stuff. For proper CMA weapon training, you need (i.e. essential to have) proper CMA basic training in hands & body.

Would you want a doctor working on you that graduated medical school, properly trained & then certified by governing bodies & accediting associations?? Or would you rather have the mail order guy who can barely read let alone comprehend what's going on?? Your call, but I know which office door I'm knocking on.

[Flying Crane]

Well, on the other hand, there has been a lot of borrowing from one system to the other for generations. The Okinawan arts have a lot of influence from Fukien White Crane, for example. Maybe we shouldn't be too quick to denounce this. That was also my initial reaction, but then I thought about it a bit. If the instructor really knows what he is doing, maybe he can pass it on in a way that does the weapon justice. He may need to teach more Chinese MA background to get this to work, but I just can't say it's impossible, or shouldn't be done.

[clfsean]

Well, on the other hand, there has been a lot of borrowing from one system to the other for generations. The Okinawan arts have a lot of influence from Fukien White Crane, for example. Maybe we shouldn't be too quick to denounce this. That was also my initial reaction, but then I thought about it a bit. If the instructor really knows what he is doing, maybe he can pass it on in a way that does the weapon justice. He may need to teach more Chinese MA background to get this to work, but I just can't say it's impossible, or shouldn't be done.

Sure there has & that's not in question.

What I'm questioning/calling BS on this insistance of learning an advanced weapon from a refined CMA with NO basics. I'm sorry but "Freestyle Karate" means 0 when it comes to CMA basics. Sure, it'll be a help, but it ain't the same.

What the Okinawans got in large part from Fukienese MA were solid basics with some of the more refined pieces, but they didn't jump right to the end.

[Flying Crane]

Sure there has & that's not in question.

What I'm questioning/calling BS on this insistance of learning an advanced weapon from a refined CMA with NO basics. I'm sorry but "Freestyle Karate" means 0 when it comes to CMA basics. Sure, it'll be a help, but it ain't the same.

What the Okinawans got in large part from Fukienese MA were solid basics with some of the more refined pieces, but they didn't jump right to the end.

Yeah, you are right. But Kachi's profile does list some kung fu training. If that is extensive enough and similar enough to what the Hook Swords teacher has to offer, maybe that can help him along. On the other hand, Kachi just might find himself training more heavily in the Chinese martial arts, if he really wants to do the hook swords well. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[clfsean]

Yeah, you are right. But Kachi's profile does list some kung fu training. If that is extensive enough and similar enough to what the Hook Swords teacher has to offer, maybe that can help him along.

Maybe... but I'm not holding my breath on it. It's a pretty advanced weapon & without the basics in the base bladed weapons, let alone double weapons... it won't be good.



On the other hand, Kachi just might find himself training more heavily in the Chinese martial arts, if he really wants to do the hook swords well. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Yeah I suggested the same thing kinda... It'd be IMHO a much more fullfilling journey than skipping about.

[Flying Crane]

Kachi: Please tell us about your Chinese Martial Arts experience, and the background of the instructor who will be teaching you the hook swords. CLFSEAN does have some valid concerns. Really, you would be better off if you get a solid grounding in the Chinese arts before you learn the hook swords. If you have that already, great. If this instructor can give that to you, great. If you don't have that, and the instructor cannot give you that, then there is a good chance your development in the hook swords will stay at a low level. At any rate, if you really want to learn the hook swords, go for it, but do everything you can to develop the proper background to make it strong.

[kachi]

Ok, I've done 6 months training in Chang Quan and I did pick up on a fair bit of the basics. If it's necessary I'd start training in Kung Fu again until I have enough experience. Here is a little bio of the instructor Grandmaster Leong :
Grandmaster Leong is fully qualified from Mainland China and has had a variety of Wing Chun and other martial arts teachers.
He has trained in Eagle Claw, Tae Kwon Do and many other Wushu forms and styles.
His Adelaide Headquarters teaches broadsword, longsword, staff, kwan do, 9 section whip, spear,hook swords, Wing Chun butterfly swords and a variety of empty hand forms such as Southern Fist, Long Fist and Tai Chi forms.
He is also the winner of many full contact titles in Asia and the Pacific. He is also a qualified acupuncturist and teacher of Chinese herbal medicine.
Do you think that 6 months is proficient enough to get the basics or should I start again? I did enjoy it alot but i'm just not sure if I have the time to commit to another full time Martial Art.

[Flying Crane]

Ok, I've done 6 months training in Chang Quan and I did pick up on a fair bit of the basics. If it's necessary I'd start training in Kung Fu again until I have enough experience. Here is a little bio of the instructor Grandmaster Leong :
Do you think that 6 months is proficient enough to get the basics or should I start again? I did enjoy it alot but i'm just not sure if I have the time to commit to another full time Martial Art.

Well, I am not in a position to judge if the six months you had is sufficient, but if Mr. Leong is as good as his bio suggests, then I suspect you may have a talented instructor to work with. Take your time, don't be in a hurry, and learn everything he is willing to teach you, even if it doesn't seem directly related to the hook swords. You might find more there that interests you then you first suspect, and your hook swords will benefit from it. Good luck, and keep us posted on how it goes.

I first began training Tai Chi as a side practice when I was training Capoeira. Then I started learning Tibetan White Crane and elements of other arts from my Tai Chi sifu. Eventually, I drifted away from Capoeira and now focus predominantly on the Chinese martial arts. You never know where these things will take you. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[kachi]

Thanx for your help and support Flying Crane, i'll let you know how things progress when I start next month.

[yipman_sifu]

My friend, try out www.IWTA.com (http://www.IWTA.com) or www.EWTO.com (http://www.EWTO.com) http://www.wingchun.com/img/WongSLeung.gif

[Flying Crane]

My friend, try out www.IWTA.com (http://www.IWTA.com) or www.EWTO.com (http://www.EWTO.com) http://www.wingchun.com/img/WongSLeung.gif

I'm not at all sure how this relates to the hook swords.

[Flying Crane]

Kachi,

Have you spoken with Sifu Leong about your interests, and if so, has he responded favorably? If he is at all traditional minded, I wouldn't be surprised if he requires that you become his student formally and study his complete system, which the hook swords would be a piece of. I don't think this means you need to stop training the Freestyle Karate if you like it, but it will certainly give you the opportunity to get well grounded in the Chinese arts. I suspect this would only make your Freestyle Karate stronger in the long run. I'm just trying to give you perspective.

[kachi]

I have talked to Sifu Leong and he said he was willing to teach hookswords alone but would rather I start training in all aspects of Kung Fu with him, at least once a week. At the moment i'm thinking I will, because i'm sure that this will be another step up in my martial arts.

Also I just have some more questions:
Should the actual hooks on the Hookswords be flexible or not?
What makes a good quality Hooksword?
On a scale to 10 what would you rate there difficulty overall?

[Flying Crane]

I have talked to Sifu Leong and he said he was willing to teach hookswords alone but would rather I start training in all aspects of Kung Fu with him, at least once a week. At the moment i'm thinking I will, because i'm sure that this will be another step up in my martial arts.

Also I just have some more questions:
Should the actual hooks on the Hookswords be flexible or not?
What makes a good quality Hooksword?
On a scale to 10 what would you rate there difficulty overall?

I havent' trained the hook swords, so I can't speak from personal experience. However one of my classmates has, so I have definitely been around it a bit. I also have some experience with the straight sword and the broadsword, (singles, not doubles just yet) so I can relate to some degree.

Any double weapon is going to be more difficult. It is hard enough to wield a weapon properly with your strong hand. Wielding one with your weak hand is harder yet, and then using one in each hand at the same time can be enough to make your brain explode. The hook swords are going to be quick and fluid. Expect this to be difficult. You may get the basic movements fairly quickly, but developing these movements to a high level of skill is going to be a long road. Settle in and enjoy it. You'll be doing it for a long time.

As far as the weapon itself, most of what is out there is made of a lightweight spring steel, that would be a "wushu" weapon. The blades are typically flexible due to the material, but it flexes along the flat of the blade. The hook itself should not flex open, even tho it will flex sideways assuming it is made of spring steel. It is fine for doing the forms and basic technique, but is not a true weapon. A real weapon would be of a heftier steel and typically would not flex as much, altho would have some flex to avoid being stiff and brittle, and breakable. This is true for any kind of sword. The quality of the steel is typically low, and the heft is usually considerably lighter than something that could actually stand up to the rigors of a battlefield. I doubt you will be able to find a pair of high quality hook swords. That's just the way it is. Ask the sifu if he can help you track down something appropriate. The lighter weapons will be much easier to use, but anything that approaches a real weapon will ultimately help you develop your skill to a higher level. It is easier to cheat on technique when you are using a superlight weapon. When the heft of the weapon is realistic, you cant cut corners. Your technique will develop better, and you will also develop the strength needed to wield the weapons well.

How exciting! Have fun.

[clfsean]

I have talked to Sifu Leong and he said he was willing to teach hookswords alone but would rather I start training in all aspects of Kung Fu with him, at least once a week. At the moment i'm thinking I will, because i'm sure that this will be another step up in my martial arts.


Well that's in the right direction. Lots of luck on the new training.



Also I just have some more questions:
Should the actual hooks on the Hookswords be flexible or not?
What makes a good quality Hooksword?
On a scale to 10 what would you rate there difficulty overall?

--1 -- Not really.
--2 -- A good hook should be pliable but not flexible, strong backbone not stiff & one continuous edge for the entire length of it
--3 -- 15 to be done correctly

[kachi]

Thanx for the info clfsean.:asian:

[arnisador]

I have talked to Sifu Leong and he said he was willing to teach hookswords alone but would rather I start training in all aspects of Kung Fu with him, at least once a week. At the moment i'm thinking I will

Smart move. Good luck!

[TheBattousai]

Its also possible, just to see what you'll be dealing with, to get wooden versions of hook swords made by a wood crafter. It helped me as I started working with them just to see what it would be like. The weight diverence should be noted but that is normal with wood verses metal. If you can find someone that can do the job, I think go for it. (They will more then likely need one or the demensions to do it though)