Tae-Kwon-Do versus Knife

[Mannie]

Can Tae Kwon Do affectively defend against a knife attack utilizing authentic Tae Kwon Do techniques?
Is there a history of Tae kwon Do applying and defending against an edge weapon attack?
Most martial arts systems say that the answer is no.

[FearlessFreep]

Do you mean most Martial Arts system say that *they* can't or that Taekwondo can't?

Other that that...why not? A knife is held at the end of the hand. Like a fist, the knife can be moved in certain angles and arcs to strike the target. If a style has moves designed to block a punch(be it hook, jab, overhand, etc..) without getting hit, it can block a knife. The biggest qualifier to that is that your margin for error is a lot smaller because if you don't stop the attack completely you could get stabbed or cut. So that can affect how you move because after the block you want the hand/knife pointing somewhere other than toward yourself.

The folllow up is the key. If you just want to block, block, block then eventually you will get cut. So once you have blocked the initial attack, you'll want to get the knife out of the attackers hand, and quickly. Taekwondo has enough hand and arm strikes to inflict serious damage to an attackers limb, possibly breaking it, to make the knife unuseable either through dropping it or disabling the arm from working.

[bignick]

If a style has moves designed to block a punch(be it hook, jab, overhand, etc..) without getting hit, it can block a knife. The biggest qualifier to that is that your margin for error is a lot smaller because if you don't stop the attack completely you could get stabbed or cut.

Your margin of error is nonexistant...and you probably will get stabbed or cut. I highly recommend people chalking up some training knives and making sure that they aren't overconfident in their ability to defend against a knife attack.

[arnisador]

A knife is held at the end of the hand. Like a fist, the knife can be moved in certain angles and arcs to strike the target. If a style has moves designed to block a punch(be it hook, jab, overhand, etc..) without getting hit, it can block a knife.

It's a lot more complicated than that. The knife cuts when it touches, and it can move in ways that would be ineffective as punches. It's like having to spar someone in a such a way that they never touch you with their right hand--ever, anywhere. If I throw a hooking strike, for example, and you put a hand up to block, I'll just cut the arm instead--either by shortening my strike on the fly, or by cutting as I retract the arm.

A knife is a very dangerous weapon, and it's more different from empty-hand than many people realize.

[Flying Crane]

It's a lot more complicated than that. The knife cuts when it touches, and it can move in ways that would be ineffective as punches. It's like having to spar someone in a such a way that they never touch you with their right hand--ever, anywhere. If I throw a hooking strike, for example, and you put a hand up to block, I'll just cut the arm instead--either by shortening my strike on the fly, or by cutting as I retract the arm.

A knife is a very dangerous weapon, and it's more different from empty-hand than many people realize.

Yeah, I've always had this sneaking suspicion. This is why I eliminated almost all of the knife defenses that I knew from Kenpo. I just didn't trust them. I figured not training it at all (at least until I learn something else) is better than training something that is rediculous and only gives a false sense of security. At least I recognize where I stand, and I don't fool myself about it. I'll put more trust in my running ability.

[FearlessFreep]

I'm sorry, I ws being overly simplistic for sake of example. Basically I was thinking that what I've seen taught is at least straghtforward in principle: You evade the strike, you control the strike, you stop the knife striking again. I don't see where there are not the tools withing'traditional taekwondo' to do that *if* one puts the time into practicing it realistically

[Miles]

I hink TKD can be effective against a knife, but I also like how Pekiti Tirsia kali deals with knife attacks. I've had my class recently do PT tapping drills as they teach good hand-eye coordination and sensitivity to the attacker's movement.

Miles

[Gemini]

I think the techniques we've learned are as sound as any other art's, but I've never tried them in a real situation, so take that as opinion only. I mean, a non combatant partner holding a fake knife isn't really going to get your adrenalim pumping or validate your ability, but that's not the techniques fault. At the same time, it would not be to my liking to find myself unarmed against a knife wielding attacher, regardless of what I knew or how well I knew it. The odds aren't going to be in your favor.

[arnisador]

I hink TKD can be effective against a knife, but I also like how Pekiti Tirsia kali deals with knife attacks.

I imagine someone trained in most arts would be able to make use of their technqiues in such a situation--if they understood the true nature of the threat. Most just don't "get" how the knife moves. It's that proper understanding of the weapon that's the big issue. Once you get that, you can start adapting. I do agree that the FMAs often bring those skills out more explicitly than many other arts do, but most arts have applicable techniques.

A skilled knifer has a huge advantage though. Controlling a punching arm is one thing--now try to control it in such a way that the hand can never touch you (or get within the 4"+ length of a blade coming out of that hand). It's harder than it looks! The knife is a tough weapon to have to defend against. It's very unforgiving, and if your opponent is prepared to take a (empty-hand) shot to give a (knife) shot...well, that's a hard game to win at if you're the one without a weapon.

[terryl965]

Of course TKD can be effective against a knife, just the other day I dropped it in the kitchen while caving a chicken and I was able to defect to the floor!!:boing2: :uhyeah:
Terry

[Makalakumu]

Hi Terry

This question is for you and other long time TKDers. Do you have set knife defenses that you teach? Where did your knife defenses come from? How comfortable are you with these...as if would you trust them with your life?

upnorthkyosa

[terryl965]

Hi Terry

This question is for you and other long time TKDers. Do you have set knife defenses that you teach? Where did your knife defenses come from? How comfortable are you with these...as if would you trust them with your life?

upnorthkyosa

Yes we do have set knife defense, they came from my instructor, instructor. When I was a high school teacher in LA back in the eighties I had to dis-arm a student that had a knife. Would I bet my life on it, kinda of sorta already did.
But to seriously answer your question now adays I would walk away, about the only time I would try to defend is if my life or my family life depended on it. And yes I' confident enough that I could be effective against mos knife attacks. Not saying I'm all in mighty and I have a close mind to learn more, there are some very interesting people here on MT and at the meet and greet I'm sure I can learn some new stuff from these people.
Terry

[Makalakumu]

Yes we do have set knife defense, they came from my instructor, instructor. When I was a high school teacher in LA back in the eighties I had to dis-arm a student that had a knife. Would I bet my life on it, kinda of sorta already did.

But to seriously answer your question now adays I would walk away, about the only time I would try to defend is if my life or my family life depended on it. And yes I' confident enough that I could be effective against mos knife attacks. Not saying I'm all in mighty and I have a close mind to learn more, there are some very interesting people here on MT and at the meet and greet I'm sure I can learn some new stuff from these people.
Terry

Thanks for you reply, Terry. I have another question. Do you know where your teacher's teacher learned the knife defenses that you practice? I'm very curious about the lineage of these things.

I wish I could go to the meet and greet, but it just won't be possible this year. Maybe next year...

[Brad Dunne]

I must first offer a minor clarification as to self defense visa vie TKD. Most TKD schools found today are of the sport breed. If self defense is taught, it is in passing and most likely severly watered down. Why you ask? Good question......The answer is that these instructors where either never taught or found that real self defense dosen't bring in the money, so they forgot what should have been taught.

As for the lineage from the schools that do teach RSD (real self defense), that comes from 2 venues. First, the pre TKD Karate training that was in Korea and 2nd from Hapkido, which just about every Korean instructor that came to America in the late 60's and 70's, had some background in. Many, if not all, of what we care to call "Old School" TKD dojangs where fully vested in doing breakfalls, takedowns, joint locks and throws, along with the hard core pound and pummel.

As for knife defense's on there own, there are ways to defend against by just using common sense and this also was taught. Example: loose change in your pocket. Take said change from pocket and throw it in the attackers face and deliver a blow of choice immediately to attackers body. Personally I prefer to wreck the knee and then vanish like a ninja. :uhyeah:

Que passo meet and great?????

[tsdclaflin]

What choice do you have? If your life was threatened and there was no way to escape, you will find out.

In Tang Soo Do, we learned some knife defenses but our instructor cautioned us against using them. If necessary, I would try. I don't know where he learned them. Fortunately, I never had to defend myself against a knife and I hope to never have to.

Practice and practice hard. "Prepare for the worst and hope for the best!"

[terryl965]

Thanks for you reply, Terry. I have another question. Do you know where your teacher's teacher learned the knife defenses that you practice? I'm very curious about the lineage of these things.

I wish I could go to the meet and greet, but it just won't be possible this year. Maybe next year...

Yes his instructor was from Okinawa based karate and then I also learned from my father Master drill instructor USMC.
Terry

PS as for TKD never had a knife defense it was all Hapkido well I know some personal Instructors that would argue that point and also MR. Dune Trditional tkd has all the upove mentions plus more and all Sport TKD schools just do sport the actually have RSD as you call it.
Terry

[Brad Dunne]

PS as for TKD never had a knife defense it was all Hapkido well I know some personal Instructors that would argue that point and also MR. Dune Trditional tkd has all the upove mentions plus more and all Sport TKD schools just do sport the actually have RSD as you call it.
Terry

Perhaps my post was misunderstood. I did reference that both Hapkido and Karate had their influences on pre sport TKD. Now also IMO, the vast majority of sport TKD training sorely lacks an honest commitment to factual/realistic self defense applications. Contrary to what a lot of folks think, the old addage of "you fight like you train" holds true. Now that's not to say that the above average sport TKD practicioner won't be able to pull something off because of his/her training, but it would be due primarily to their athletic abilities.

[Mannie]

As most of you have stated, Tae Kwon Do doesnt have an edge weapon curriculum or if it does its one that the instructor is unsure of its confidence in using it in a self preservation situation.
I find this strange as Tae Kwon Do is a Self-Defense system promoting self-defense but turns a blind eye to one of the most used, feared and on the increase weapons of choice for attacks in past, present and future times.

[kwang gae]

If you want to know if your knife defense training is any good, (without getting cut that is), practice it with a red marker instead of a knife.

You may be surprised how many places you end up getting knicked.

[Miles]

This question is for you and other long time TKDers. Do you have set knife defenses that you teach? Where did your knife defenses come from? How comfortable are you with these...as if would you trust them with your life?

upnorthkyosa

I guess I've been around a long time...my wife tells me so. :)

Yes, I have set knife defenses against a stab: ice-pick grip and thrust and slashes-diagonal and horizontal. These came from my original instructor and I don't know what actual experience, if any, he had. I think that I could make them work-I would have no choice if I could not avoid the conflict.

Miles

[Kuk Sa Nim]

If you want to know if your knife defense training is any good, (without getting cut that is), practice it with a red marker instead of a knife.

You may be surprised how many places you end up getting knicked.

This is a topic I've been involved in for some time now. Truthfully, in all my years in TKD, the only techniques that I would label "TKD knife defense", were pretty much flashy and impractical. Lots of static blocking, and lots of kicking the knife out of the hand. The good old kick the thrusting knife out of his hand with a crescent kick, followed by a jump around crescent kick to head is a perfect example. I'm sure all TKD (and most HKD) people know this technique. It is still unfortunately being taught quite a bit, and surfaces in lots of KMA demos.

I'm not going to stand here and criticize anyone's techniques nor training. But as was mentioned in sections before me, there are a couple questions you need to ask yourself.

1- Am I willing to trust this technique or training with my life (or that of a loved one)?
2- Am I doing all that I can to survive this VERY dangerous scenario?

The answer to both these should be no. We can never train enough in saving our lives. We must think out of the box and be real honest with ourselves. When it comes to empty hand knife defense, we do not have the luxury of kidding ourselves. The consequences are entirely much too grave.

I recommend we all seriously review our knife defense and "knife work" in general. If it complies with the "5 Golden Rules of Knife Fighting", then we are on the right path. If not, then it's time to make some adjustments.

FYI:

5 Golden Rules of Knife Fighting

1- Stay out of the line of fire. Get an angle on the weapon and the opponent.
2- Control the Weapon. Know where it is at all times.
3- Effective techniques application. Must have a profound impact on the opponent and place you in the least danger as possible.
4- Follow up on effective technique. If needed, regress in the steps to insure safety.
5- Neutralize the threat. Finish the engagement on your terms. The opponent must be disarmed, unconscious, mortally wounded, or all the above, as long as he is no longer a threat.

Keep in mind that a serious knife encounter is very dynamic and dangerous. This is always to be viewed as a life threatening situation. Never underestimate your opponent, and over estimate your preparedness. Anything less and you are asking for major trouble.

Just my 2 cents...

With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba

[Zepp]

This might belong in a different topic, but I feel like it has to be asked.

Why bother differentiating between a knife defense that comes from TKD, and a knife defense that comes from somewhere else, such as Hapkido? If you're learning it in a Tae Kwon Do class, and your instructor learned it from a Tae Kwon Do instructor, why not just consider it to now be part of Tae Kwon Do?

[FearlessFreep]

I sorta have been wondering that myself. The original question asked about 'traditional TKD' so I kept my thoughts to within the normal techniques and the more obvious motions rather then delving into the 'hidden techniques' of forms like grabs and joint locks and takedowns and such. If those with exposure and experience from Hapkido and other arts start seeing in the motions of Taekwondo a sort of abstraction of movements from outside the art, and teach that interpretation to their students, does that mean the art has expanded to include new techniques that were previously not part of the art? Or are those techniques part of the art any from history and the forms were designed to illustrate them as well and they're just not as noticed or taught as directly?

Bear in mind that I'm still reading the book and I don't even know all the characters yet and the plot keeps surprising me

[Jagermeister]

The simple and definitive answer to your question is NO.

It's true that some people who have trained to defend against blades have done so successfully. But it's also true that untrained people have done likewise. It has more to do with chance than with training or preparation.

Anyone who feels confident with their chances in an open-hand vs. knife encounter is a fool. I know a lot of people wish that this wasn't the truth, but it is.

[darkell]

I trained in TKD for almost 7 years and am now doing Kalis Ilustrisimo.

A fair amount of our training in Kalis deals with how to attack with and defend against knives. Even then our instructor says that while he'd take on anyone sword to sword he'd still hesitate going knife to knife.

The unarmed fighting/sparring/training you do in TKD does nothing to prepare you for fighting against a knife. If you want a simple demostration pair up with someone holding a black marker pen and see how many times they can draw on you before you can take it off them. (Remember its a lot easier to cut someone than draw on them.)

[jonah2]

...If you want a simple demostration pair up with someone holding a black marker pen and see how many times they can draw on you before you can take it off them. (Remember its a lot easier to cut someone than draw on them.)
Agreed - and those marks will be from the tip only. Try the same excercise with a training knife with red lipstick along the edge - far more marks than a pen. Just shows how easily a cut can be made even if you THINK you are controlling the attacker and blade.

jonah

[arnisador]

Yup. Even when I get a 'successful' disarm in training, it's not uncommon for me to get nicked somewhere along the way.

It's just much more different than people realize.

[Brad Dunne]

Training against the knife is at best an exercise in futility for two reasons.
First, the vast majority of folks focus on a disarm based on technical prowess. Secondly, the training venues, as well meaning as "quasi realistic" as folks wish to tout it, falls short because nothing is really "on the line", so the defender will not go full out with whatever they are defending with. Now the attacker can and does go full out (marker or dull knife with paint or such on it), because he can and not hurt his training partner. This becomes a one sided encounter and only proves that you can and will be cut/stabbed if your not committed. That unto itself is good feedback, but only if the training re-routes itself to something better. That something better IMO is to deliver a counter strike while blocking/re-routing, to debilitating areas of the body and not focus on attempting a disarm. A disarm becomes eminently easier if the attacker is struggling to breathe, see or stand.

[darkell]

Training against the knife is at best an exercise in futility for two reasons.
First, the vast majority of folks focus on a disarm based on technical prowess. Secondly, the training venues, as well meaning as "quasi realistic" as folks wish to tout it, falls short because nothing is really "on the line", so the defender will not go full out with whatever they are defending with. Now the attacker can and does go full out (marker or dull knife with paint or such on it), because he can and not hurt his training partner. This becomes a one sided encounter and only proves that you can and will be cut/stabbed if your not committed. That unto itself is good feedback, but only if the training re-routes itself to something better. That something better IMO is to deliver a counter strike while blocking/re-routing, to debilitating areas of the body and not focus on attempting a disarm. A disarm becomes eminently easier if the attacker is struggling to breathe, see or stand.

I disagree with this. Firstly, while fighting against a knife is very dangerous it can be done. Especially if you can pick up your own weapon.
As for not having anything on the line, its a valid point but I would say that training hard and intensely while still trying to be safe is about the only thing you can realistically do. If you spar once realistically with a real knife chances are you'll never spar again, and then how are you supposed to defend yourself?

One other thing, a disarm doesn't just mean taking the weapon off the opponent. I can mean hitting the weapon or the arm so hard that it flies out of their hand. For instance, the Antonio Ilustrisimo used to sometimes disarm people by cutting off the thumb of the hand holding the weapon (this was with swords not knives though). But then he could be a nasty peice of work.

[Brad Dunne]

On my part, I dislike being objectionable, but in this case I have to be.

"I disagree with this. Firstly, while fighting against a knife is very dangerous it can be done. Especially if you can pick up your own weapon".

OK!, I agreed that knife defenses can/do work, but I was somewhat specific in my approach. We were talking about TKD defenses which has nothing to do with weapons availability........so it's apples to oranges.

"As for not having anything on the line, its a valid point but I would say that training hard and intensely while still trying to be safe is about the only thing you can realistically do".

I concur, but one can only go so far with being intense, before harm to another is accomplished. This unto itself reduces what is really applicable to true knife defenses. The only honest thing that can be taught is trying to influence the mindset during the training time. That along with going after specific strikes that would/should stop or greatly reduce the attackers determination to harm/kill you. Regardless of how much training anyone undergoes, being put to the real test is the only measure of success and some folks just may not have it in them to do what's needed in that situation.

"If you spar once realistically with a real knife chances are you'll never spar again, and then how are you supposed to defend yourself?"

The only thing I can deduce from that statement is that it's contradictory in essence. Although no-one suggested full out with a real knife, the statement suggests that one would be killed ("never spar again"), so that would mean that no training is worth attempting, it's a lose-lose situation.

"One other thing, a disarm doesn't just mean taking the weapon off the opponent. I can mean hitting the weapon or the arm so hard that it flies out of their hand. For instance, the Antonio Ilustrisimo used to sometimes disarm people by cutting off the thumb of the hand holding the weapon (this was with swords not knives though)".

I'm sorry, but again we're dealing with apples to oranges with the sword analogy. As for the first part of hitting the weapon arm/hand, I concur that this could be a viable defense, but only if the defender is strong enough to inflict a serious strike and connects with in the right place. As I stated previously, strikes to more receptive areas would be encouraged for anyone, for strength is not a preference for these targets.

[bignick]

For those losing hope, knife defenses can do work...my friend, who was a brown belt in jujutsu at the time was in England visiting his sister and brother-in-law. His brother-in-law left him in a bar in the middle of Birmingham. As he was making his way, (he thought), towards his sister's place he found himself in a not so upscale area of the city. At that point two guys approached him and one tried to stab him with a knife, he blocked the thrust grabbed the knife hand and did a kote gaeshi...as he threw he said he drove the attacker's arm/elbow into the concrete while holding their hand in a gokkyo position. That attacker was out of the picture and the other one decided it wasn't just worth it and fled.

There's always hope...

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Can Tae Kwon Do affectively defend against a knife attack utilizing authentic Tae Kwon Do techniques?


Sure can. I have forgotten the name of the technique, but it goes like this. Attacker pointed a knife to our stomach. We raise our hands pretending to surrender. Suddenly we kick the knife-holding hand at the wrist using the inner side of our right foot (the one under the big toe). This will clear the knife out of the way, so that, using the same foot (and without putting it to the floor), we can kick him on the groin, stomach or chin. Then RUN while he is stunned :)

I think with Taekwondo's emphasis to kick FAST several times without putting down the foot, you can apply it to any stick up or grabbing attack from the front.

[celtic_crippler]

I've found spraying your attacker in the face with gasoline works pretty good at disarming them.....long story. =)

[arnisador]

Attacker pointed a knife to our stomach. We raise our hands pretending to surrender. Suddenly we kick the knife-holding hand at the wrist using the inner side of our right foot (the one under the big toe). This will clear the knife out of the way, so that, using the same foot (and without putting it to the floor), we can kick him on the groin, stomach or chin. Then RUN

I have a lot of qualms about this technique. It assumes the person is kicking length away when he holds up the knife--why not run then? There are two serious opportunities for a cut to the foot/ankle/shin--if he moves the knife as you kick and cuts you then, and if you don't kick it as far away as hoped or he pulls it back to position quickly--that groin kick could run your leg right down the blade.

If the person moves the knife just a little, the first kick misses and he can counterattack. I think this is a very optimistic technique!

[MJS]

Sure can. I have forgotten the name of the technique, but it goes like this. Attacker pointed a knife to our stomach. We raise our hands pretending to surrender. Suddenly we kick the knife-holding hand at the wrist using the inner side of our right foot (the one under the big toe). This will clear the knife out of the way, so that, using the same foot (and without putting it to the floor), we can kick him on the groin, stomach or chin. Then RUN while he is stunned :)

I think with Taekwondo's emphasis to kick FAST several times without putting down the foot, you can apply it to any stick up or grabbing attack from the front.

Questions for you.

1: If the person is that close, how are you going to be able to kick them?

2: With the person being that close and not assuming that they're going to stand there while you execute your defense, don't you think that they're going to see you move and thrust into your stomach?

Mike

[arnisador]

With the person being that close and not assuming that they're going to stand there while you execute your defense, don't you think that they're going to see you move and thrust into your stomach?

We were practicing this technique last night, against a Thai-style push kick. We were using sticks and so were at a slightly greater range, but after practicing avoiding the leg, we practiced striking the leg as a block/counter, then practiced stabbing to the midsection as a stop.

No one's kick is so strong that they can afford to trade a kick for a stab. Of course, if kicking is what you're good at, you may need to go with your strengths!

[bignick]

There are two serious opportunities for a cut to the foot/ankle/shin--if he moves the knife as you kick and cuts you then, and if you don't kick it as far away as hoped or he pulls it back to position quickly--that groin kick could run your leg right down the blade.

If the person moves the knife just a little, the first kick misses and he can counterattack. I think this is a very optimistic technique!

Don't forget the femoral artery, also kicking the blade hand may buy you time but it doesn absolutely nothing in terms of actually controlling the weapon. Not my idea of a good knife defense...

[MJS]

No one's kick is so strong that they can afford to trade a kick for a stab. Of course, if kicking is what you're good at, you may need to go with your strengths!

For me, attempting any kick while facing someone with a knife, is going to be the last thing I'd do. Now, if I had control of the weapon arm/hand, etc, a stomp to the foot, knee, shin, low kick to the groin, to aid in my defense, may be an option.

Mike

[arnisador]

I agree. When possible, I like to control the arm and then launch knees to the thigh/groin, with the intent of pummeling the legs until the person falls down. A man who can't stand, can't fight (er, unless I get pulled down into groundfighting of course--an ugly scenario when a knife is involved).

[FearlessFreep]

The only kick I would go for if facing a knife as an opening move would be at the knee...and something *hard*

[Mannie]

Hi everyone,
Just so that you understand the reason for this thread.
I am an Edge Weapon Instructor that is accredited in three Knife Systems.
I have put an Edge Weapon Awareness & Defense training system that does not teach you a new system, but rather works with individual martial arts in either creating a practical realistic syllabus that complements and adds to what that system already does, or else simply to revamp an existing program.
I have been working with some senior TaeKwonDo instructors over the past few months, and have put in place with their assistance a curriculum that uses existing TaeKwonDo techniques and application in dealing against edge weapons in a very practical and effective manner taking into account all the four main areas.
1. Threating Knife - Very Long Range
2. Ready to Act Knife - Meddium Range
3. Kill Knife - In Your Face Range
4. Demanding Knife - You Have Something they want

These applications will be published in the Australasian TaeKwonDo magazine in four segments.

[Digger70chall]

sounds like an interesting read. I don't know how i could get ahold of austrailian TKD magazine though. Will there be a way to make them available in the states?

[FearlessFreep]

Yeah, would love to read that!

[Gemini]

These applications will be published in the Australasian TaeKwonDo magazine in four segments.

I would also love to have a gander at that. When it's published, please let us know how we can access it.

Thanks

[Makalakumu]

I think that the most effective techniques in TKD against the knife are going to be the low side kicks, foot stomps, and kneeing. If one can keep the knife off of their vitals long enough to disable their opponents ability to move, disengaging and running away gets easier. Of course, if one can run away to begin with, they've just defended themselves.

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Questions for you.

1: If the person is that close, how are you going to be able to kick them?



if the knife is so very close, then it's no longer TKD range of fighting. Personally I will use Jujutsu joint lock.

But off course, like my friend Arnisador said, if the person attacking me with knife is a skilled knifefighter, then my chances are slim, so I better run! :)



2: With the person being that close and not assuming that they're going to stand there while you execute your defense, don't you think that they're going to see you move and thrust into your stomach?

Mike

That's why we put our hands up. It is to give our attacker a false sense of security, "knowing" that we are "surrendering" to his threat.

On the other hand, if the attacker is a seasoned thug, then he won't fall for it so easily. So, just give him the money and run with our tails between our legs :)

[jujutsu_indonesia]

If the person moves the knife just a little, the first kick misses and he can counterattack. I think this is a very optimistic technique!

pssttt... arnisador.. this was a technique taught to "boost the spirit and confidence of junior high school students training in Taekwondo" :)

[MJS]

if the knife is so very close, then it's no longer TKD range of fighting. Personally I will use Jujutsu joint lock.


But off course, like my friend Arnisador said, if the person attacking me with knife is a skilled knifefighter, then my chances are slim, so I better run! :)

I agree, being in that close, getting control is the way to go.




That's why we put our hands up. It is to give our attacker a false sense of security, "knowing" that we are "surrendering" to his threat.

On the other hand, if the attacker is a seasoned thug, then he won't fall for it so easily. So, just give him the money and run with our tails between our legs :)

Still not sure I'd want to attempt a kick to start off with, but I do agree with putting the hands up, taking a quick glance over the shoulder to see what hand the knife is in, if its an attack from behind, as we can begin our defense while the hands are in motion.

Mike

[Mannie]

From experience, do attempt to grapple with a knife attacker.
You stun & Run - Run and scan for weapons to also stun.
Never, ever choose skin, blood and bone to deal against sharp steel.
- Spin in their face & run
- Yell & Run
- Look for surrogates weapons
- look for environmental weapons
If it is already in your face - you dont defend - you survive, and the techniques for survival cannot be practiced as drills but only through instinct, commited training.

[Last Fearner]

Here is my perspective on Knife defense with Taekwondo skills. This is not to put mine above anyone elses - - it's just a different point of view. Sorry if it is too long, but it is the only way I can properly cover such a serious topic.

First, I must comment on what Taekwondo is. I have read alot where people say Taekwondo is this or that, or doesn't contain this or that. I want to point out that there are three main interpretations of Taekwondo.

First, there is the pinning of "Taekwon-do" to the late General Choi Hong Hi for his submitting the name at the session for "renaming" Korean Martial art in 1955. He did a lot to spread his version of Oh Do Kwan ("Gym of my way") doing things his way,through the International Taekwondo Federation (ITF). An admirable life commited to teaching "his way."

Second, there are the watered down versions of schools that primarily focus on sport, or fitness, and remove much of the self defense. Some people say "the majority" of TKD schools, however I wonder if they mean the majority of the 372 schools they have visited in their country, or world wide. How many thousands of Taekwondo schools have they not seen? In the U.S., the "bad" Taekwondo schools were rampant in the '80s and '90s but things are being turned around in my observation.

The third interpretation of Taekwondo is the one that I am involved with. Teaching all of Korea's historical aspects of their native Marital Art under the umbrella title of Taekwondo. This includes Hapkido, Hoshinsul, Yudo, and a variety of other Korean names. Some have chosen to teach these outside of the "Taekwondo" label which is fine, but that does not remove them from the original intent of the Korean Government to unify ALL of their native training under one heading in 1955.

That being said - - Yes, there is most definately knife defense skills in "traditional Taekwondo." I trained against knife attacks as a student from my instructor whose lineage goes back to Korea to infinite generations of Masters. As a Master Instructor myself, I have worked with Grandmasters in recent times who share their knowledge, so it comes from a variety of sources.


As most of you have stated, Tae Kwon Do doesnt have an edge weapon curriculum or if it does its one that the instructor is unsure of its confidence in using it in a self preservation situation.
I find this strange as Tae Kwon Do is a Self-Defense system promoting self-defense but turns a blind eye to one of the most used, feared and on the increase weapons of choice for attacks in past, present and future times.

Do you think Masters of Subak, Taekyon, Hwarang-do, and Hapkido, etc. never trained on how to fight against knives, and never actually fought in real life against armed attackers? Yes they did.

Whether a person is confident in those skills is up to that person and their level of training. Training does help. Proper training improves your chances of survival - which is the objective. In my belief, the knife is not the most used and feared. The gun is far more deadly and used in drive by shootings, gang fights, and armed robberies every day.

Against a knife, there are two main scenarios. If you see the attacker and the weapon, or you don't. If they stick you before you see them, or slash your throat from behind - you lose. Keeping alert, there are some things you can do against a surprise attack, but most of what is being discussed here is face to face.

I won't give away all my tactics here, otherwise the bad guys will learn, and know how to avoid my defenses. I have my own "Golden Rules" about knife defense. There are just three.

1. Don't get cut.
2. Don't do anything foolish.
3. Make sure what you do works, and if not, see rules number 1 and 2.

I have used Taekwondo against weapons in the street. I have removed knives by kicking the weapon out of the hand (it really does work if you train a lot, and know when and how to do it). I have stripped weapons after controlling the arm, and if done correctly, there is no way they can still cut you. Knife defense is a big risk, as others have said. You might get knicked or worse. However, if you have a choice - - run!!!. If not, you must do the best you have trained for.

The suggestion of using markers in training to represent knives is a bit of an indication, but the reality is that one of the first moves will be to seriously injur my attacker. In class, your training helps, but it is playing a game. In real life, your classroom skills have to be applied at the highest level. Train for it, and it will likely work. Crime statistics show that many victims of knife attacks suffer multiple "defensive wounds" around the hands, then forearms, and non-vital body areas before the deadly cuts are inflicted.

If a person knows what to do, they might get cut once or twice, but they should be able to defeat the attacker during those initial strikes and survive. Using a coat or piece of clothing to cover the weapon, a chair, and hadfull of dirt (or pocket change as mentioned) are ways to distract or prevent getting cut. Waiting until the attacker lunges and makes themselves vulnerable , and then countering is sometimes better than going after them.

Finally, I would like to respond to the "jujutsu" comment. There is no such thing as "too close for Taekwondo." This is a misconception by those who don't know what we can do. I can stand within an inch of you, or you can grab me and I can strike with any weapon, including kicks, then I can use the throwing and grappling aspects of Taekwondo. Jujutsu is fine for those who study that, but genuine Taekwondo includes striking, throwing, and holding, and I can strike from any range.

This is my humble opinion from my own experience. Thanks.
Sr. Master Eisenhart

[Gemini]

.....Some people say "the majority" of TKD schools, however I wonder if they mean the majority of the 372 schools they have visited in their country, or world wide. How many thousands of Taekwondo schools have they not seen? ......

.....There is no such thing as "too close for Taekwondo." This is a misconception by those who don't know what we can do. I can stand within an inch of you, or you can grab me and I can strike with any weapon, including kicks, then I can use the throwing and grappling aspects of Taekwondo. Jujutsu is fine for those who study that, but genuine Taekwondo includes striking, throwing, and holding, and I can strike from any range.


Excellent post, sir! I quoted the two comments above because of the frequency I hear things such as these, and found them worth repeating.