Stand by your stances? [Archive] - MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

Wertle

08-02-2002, 05:18 PM

Well, after a hard day in the battlefield.... *cough* ¬_¬

Seriously though, I don't know how the stances in my system compare to everything else, but I know that some stance transitions are *extremely* important for me.

You see, i am a very small person (though I'm waiting for that last growth spurt, then everyone will see! Hahaha!!), so I can't rely on strength alone to put the power behind my technique. I've been concentrating a lot on hip transitions, like between back stance and forward stance, to generate the power I would need to throw a decent punch.

I can say that at first it required a lot of thought, but I've concentrated on it for so long that now I make the stance transition without thinking, it's just a natural movement for me. Being small, I have to focus a lot on the power I can get from my hips and my shoulders, and stance transitions are an important part of that.

Fortunately, though, I've not had to use it yet. ^_^

I don't know if that's what you were looking for, but there it is nonetheless, hehe.

Goldendragon7

08-02-2002, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by jazkiljok
With all the emphasis on good stances in training- how many found themselves using them in actual battle?

All the time.
:asian:

Seig

08-02-2002, 06:11 PM

Being as I am nearly wide as I am tall, I find that good solid stances are a must; especially in combat. I have a naturally low center of gravity and by combining that with a good solid stance, it makes me very near immovable.

KenpoTess

08-02-2002, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Seig

Being as I am nearly wide as I am tall, I find that good solid stances are a must; especially in combat. I have a naturally low center of gravity and by combining that with a good solid stance, it makes me very near immovable.

Man you're in need of a mirror.. you're not a Box ~!!

but he's right.. you want to try moving a brick wall.. well have a go at Seig~!!!

I tend to use a low base stance. I find it drives alot of my opponents crazy when they are standing straight up and I'm nearly on the ground.. plus with tecs.. I tend to take a wider stance as I have very muscular legs and am a 'on my toes type person'.

Goldendragon7

08-02-2002, 06:22 PM

if tippy toes Castillo can sweep him...... hee hee:rofl:
or bounce off.......:eek:

Blindside

08-02-2002, 06:23 PM

Hi Tess,

Do you guys use leg kicks in your sparring?

Just curious, people in really deep stances often suck up lots of damage to their legs if they are allowed. Do you think that would be a problem for you given your stated "low base stance?"

thanks,

Lamont

Goldendragon7

08-02-2002, 06:29 PM

:asian:

Klondike93

08-02-2002, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by jazkiljok

With all the emphasis on good stances in training- how many found themselves using them in actual battle?

Opinions, perspectives, anecdotes- all comments welcomed.
:asian:

I find I'll use a neutral bow for just about everything, so I would say I do :)

:asian:

jfarnsworth

08-02-2002, 09:06 PM

I think the most practical of the stances become the kneel's. When you start to progress (my opinion) your mind and body just start using the close & wide kneel stances. I have found for myself that it just becomes more mobile and natural of the stances plus the upper belt material your neutral & forward bow start getting less and less. Just an opinion though.
Jason Farnsworth

KenpoTess

08-02-2002, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by Blindside

Hi Tess,

Do you guys use leg kicks in your sparring?

Just curious, people in really deep stances often suck up lots of damage to their legs if they are allowed. Do you think that would be a problem for you given your stated "low base stance?"

thanks,

Lamont

Hi Lamont,

Yes we use kicks in our sparring.. I find when I fire off a round or front kick when in my low stance.. it surprises my opponent because they have no clue how I did that.. there's only a couple of us that use the low stances.. and they are great for coming up with an upper cut to the 'target area' ..
also when in my low stance.. with weight bearing on back leg.. I can slide into a front twist stance .. and attack.. then right back away.. with good distance attained.. hope this helps :)

Tess

Blindside

08-02-2002, 10:53 PM

Hi Tess,

Actually I was referring to people using legs as targets of kicks, and whether that was allowed in your sparring. Alot of deep stances go out the window when you introduce these targets to your sparring because the front leg of a deep stance makes way too good a target to pass up.

Leg targets are usually the thigh, inside or outside, and the calf.

Just curious,

Lamont

Sigung86

08-02-2002, 11:05 PM

Frankly, if you don't have stances and aren't losing most all of your fights... You're just lucky ... so far!:rolleyes:

Dan

Goldendragon7

08-03-2002, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by Klondike93
I find I'll use a neutral bow for just about everything :)

Well, that is the base....... you probably don't even realize the transitions yet. Film yourself and watch it slow mo........

see how many stances you can find........

Remember.....
the definition of Stance......
It is a snapshot of motion!

:asian:

Seig

08-03-2002, 03:13 AM

Leg kicks are restricted to the advanced belts that can execute them without leaving someone crippled. Whay is a low stance for me would probably be considered normal for most others. My legs are barely long enought to reach the ground.

KenpoTess

08-03-2002, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Blindside

Hi Tess,

Actually I was referring to people using legs as targets of kicks, and whether that was allowed in your sparring. Alot of deep stances go out the window when you introduce these targets to your sparring because the front leg of a deep stance makes way too good a target to pass up.

Leg targets are usually the thigh, inside or outside, and the calf.

Just curious,

Lamont

Ahh ok Lamont, sorry bout that.. this Old age fusion comes on slow but deadly :)

as Seig says.. the upper belts are only allowed to kick below the waist.. we use leg sweeps (front leg only) etc.. I'm more of a hand person myself, and tend to get where I'm going without having to rely heavily on the kicks.. hence my ability to fight low stance .. I use alot of body movement when I fight too.. I'm not quite sure how to explain what I mean .. hahaa.. Maybe Seig or Stickdummy or someone who's sparred me can help out here ;)
Since I don't 'see' myself as others do :)

Tess

RCastillo

08-03-2002, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Seig

Being as I am nearly wide as I am tall, I find that good solid stances are a must; especially in combat. I have a naturally low center of gravity and by combining that with a good solid stance, it makes me very near immovable.

Dang it, would you quit stealing my words, becuase that is ME you describe!(minus the tall part):mad:

RCastillo

08-03-2002, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

if tippy toes Castillo can sweep him...... hee hee:rofl:
or bounce off.......:eek:

We're both built the same way, good looking, talented, and dirty fighters!:cool:

RCastillo

08-03-2002, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Well, that is the base....... you probably don't even realize the transitions yet. Film yourself and watch it slow mo........

see how many stances you can find........

Remember.....
the definition of Stance......
It is a snapshot of motion!

:asian:

Uh, I'm already slow, so what else do you suggest?;)

RCastillo

08-03-2002, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by KenpoTess

Ahh ok Lamont, sorry bout that.. this Old age fusion comes on slow but deadly :)

as Seig says.. the upper belts are only allowed to kick below the waist.. we use leg sweeps (front leg only) etc.. I'm more of a hand person myself, and tend to get where I'm going without having to rely heavily on the kicks.. hence my ability to fight low stance .. I use alot of body movement when I fight too.. I'm not quite sure how to explain what I mean .. hahaa.. Maybe Seig or Stickdummy or someone who's sparred me can help out here ;)
Since I don't 'see' myself as others do :)

Tess

I must agree with Tess.(Very rare here)I 'd rather save the leg kicking for the higher ranked people. As it is, the lower ranked need to develop better habits first.:asian:

KenpoTess

08-03-2002, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by RCastillo

I must agree with Tess.(Very rare here)I 'd rather save the leg kicking for the higher ranked people. As it is, the lower ranked need to develop better habits first.:asian:

*marks date on calender.. woohoo..Ricardo agreed with me.. ~ hahaaa.. *smug grin*

satans.barber

08-03-2002, 01:35 PM

Hmm, we don't restrict anything from the lower belts, they're allowed to use whatever works (which is the kenpo ethos after all!). As long as they're sparring well.

Most people don't use these kicks anyway though, there's no point. We don't points spar so it'd just be hurting each other for the sake of it.

Glen usually keeps and eye on everyone though when sparring's going on, we don't just leave the lower belts in a corner kicking the crap out of eachother!

Ian.

KenpoTess

08-03-2002, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by satans.barber

Hmm, we don't restrict anything from the lower belts, they're allowed to use whatever works (which is the kenpo ethos after all!). As long as they're sparring well.

Most people don't use these kicks anyway though, there's no point. We don't points spar so it'd just be hurting each other for the sake of it.

Glen usually keeps and eye on everyone though when sparring's going on, we don't just leave the lower belts in a corner kicking the crap out of eachother!

Ian.

everyone spars everyone in our school.. doesn't matter what rank.. but from day one we institute the 'rules' the chest to belt is legal target.. nothing below.. only where headgear covers. .legal target.. no back contact..
when I fight a lower belt.. I go according to their rank.. adjusting my speed etc to them.. and kick it up a notch as they grow in their ability.
The upper belts sparring each other can use the leg kicks with control.. but only on each other. I have a lovely bruise on my left knee.. no clue who gave it to me or how... but last December when blocking a kick at the college .. I ended up with the most painful case of Cellulitis that hurt like hell.. so I protect my legs with shin guards now and try not to get them where they are could be injured.

Tess

satans.barber

08-03-2002, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by KenpoTess

everyone spars everyone in our school.. doesn't matter what rank.. but from day one we institute the 'rules' the chest to belt is legal target.. nothing below.. only where headgear covers. .legal target.. no back contact..

Hmm, we don't have any rules :)

Well, not biting and eye poking obviously, but all targets are legal (we do try not to strike the side of the knee as it's too easy to permanently damage it, usually an air shot is made if this is open and acknowledged with a nod by the other person).

I suppose that way it gets you used to street style sooner.

In our school, if the groin is open then bang! A shot goes in. Teaches you to cover up better I can tell you (obviously this is controlled and we all wear the appropriate protection but still...)

As for back contact, again that's legal. If someone turns for a spinning kick there's nothing to stop you getting a kidney shot in, again not full power or anything but it's still there if our students want to use it.

We've not had many accidents though, in 5 or 6 years I can only think of two incidents that arose in sparring, one where a really tally guy who was a complete idiot hook kicked a smaller guy in the head and kinda knocked him out, and another time when another tall guy caught a guy above the eye with a spinning outside crescent kick and split it. Neither were that major though.

I just don't think it's good to restrict the freestlye section of the art to rules, if people get into that 'holds barred' mindset it might be difficult to get out of it again if they're forced into a real fight.

I know there are issues with insurance and such like now though that are out of some instructors' hands though. There's a whole list of exercises we're not even meant to do under our insurance policy!

Ian.

Klondike93

08-03-2002, 07:20 PM

Goldendragon7

08-03-2002, 07:34 PM

One, never hit anyone below the soles of their feet...........

Two, never kick a woman in the testicles....

:asian:

Seig

08-05-2002, 09:57 AM

I understand everyone's points on not restricitng targets. Now, also remember that we live in a litigious society here in the states. The rules are more for my protection than they are for the student's. Were I to be sued, it would still cost me dearly to defend myself. So I had to apply Kenpo to my Kenpo. (The best way to defend one's self is to avoid the attack altogether.)

jeffkyle

08-05-2002, 09:57 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goldendragon7

[B]One, never hit anyone below the soles of their feet...........

Now you are really limiting me. That is one more rule than I go by. And one more rule that i have to remember. :)

brianhunter

08-05-2002, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

One, never hit anyone below the soles of their feet...........

Two, never kick a woman in the testicles....

:asian:

If someone is hanging by thier feet is that considered below??

Blindside

08-05-2002, 12:17 PM

If someone is hanging by thier feet is that considered below??

Or one of those capoeira guys doing a handstand kick....?

brianhunter

08-05-2002, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by Blindside

Or one of those capoeira guys doing a handstand kick....?

Hey buckling branch would probably work on an arm too!

Goldendragon7

08-05-2002, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by brianhunter
Hey buckling branch would probably work on an arm too!

Buckling Twig........

:asian:

jeffkyle

08-05-2002, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by brianhunter

If someone is hanging by thier feet is that considered below??

That is considered to be BatMan...and you shouldn't be messing with him, because Superman isn't far away!

FUZZYJ692000

08-05-2002, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by KenpoTess

I'm more of a hand person myself, and tend to get where I'm going without having to rely heavily on the kicks.. hence my ability to fight low stance .. I use alot of body movement when I fight too.. I'm not quite sure how to explain what I mean .. hahaa.. Maybe Seig or Stickdummy or someone who's sparred me can help out here ;)
Since I don't 'see' myself as others do :)

Tess

Okay Tess, I think I can try and explain how it is to spar with ya. See Tess to me is really quick, especially with her hands. When you spar her she is always in a deep stance with her head leaned back out of the way. When she comes in trust me most of the time I don't see it. I'm sure everyone has seen some crazy person weave in and out of traffic before. Well, that's almost like sparring Tess. One minute she's there in front of you and the next she's weaving her way behind, next to you, over you, under you, you can never tell. She doesn't do sweeps so much, but she does have a killer front kick that will send you flying. :eek: I think that's about it. Watch out for those hands. :asian:

satans.barber

08-05-2002, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by Seig

I understand everyone's points on not restricitng targets. Now, also remember that we live in a litigious society here in the states. The rules are more for my protection than they are for the student's. Were I to be sued, it would still cost me dearly to defend myself. So I had to apply Kenpo to my Kenpo. (The best way to defend one's self is to avoid the attack altogether.)

Yeah, these things seem to govern the way schools are run more and more these days (which is why I was on about insurance and that...), I just hope it doesn't get to the point where it's so easy to sue someone (especially in America ;) *) that instructor's daren't let people spar anymore.

Ian.

* there was a story on the news here last week about a couple of big American lads who were taking McDonald's, BK and KFC to court in some sort of joint trial or something because they'd both had two heart attacks from fast food they were knowingly sold, and that is classed as a legitimate case over there?? Made me laugh anyway (the ridiculousness of the legal precident, not the fact they'd had heart attacks..)!

Kirk

08-05-2002, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by satans.barber

* there was a story on the news here last week about a couple of big American lads who were taking McDonald's, BK and KFC to court in some sort of joint trial or something because they'd both had two heart attacks from fast food they were knowingly sold, and that is classed as a legitimate case over there?? Made me laugh anyway (the ridiculousness of the legal precident, not the fact they'd had heart attacks..)!

Yes ... the whole news story is posted here (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2933) in the locker room. A friend of
mine from England had this to say about the lawsuit. "In England,
they'd tell them to piss off!" :rofl:

satans.barber

08-06-2002, 06:29 AM

Originally posted by Kirk

Yes ... the whole news story is posted here (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2933) in the locker room. A friend of
mine from England had this to say about the lawsuit. "In England,
they'd tell them to piss off!" :rofl:

Ah, didn't see that, I don't usually read the locker room. Maybe I should!

He's quite right though, it'd never get off the ground here! Same as suing someone because you got kicked or whatever in a martial arts school, if you went in there of your own free will, and fought of your own free will, I don't see where the grounding is for a claim!

Just the way different legal systems work though I suppose.

Ian.

Stick Dummy

08-06-2002, 06:50 AM

KenpoTess wrote:
I have a lovely bruise on my left knee.. no clue who gave it to me or how...

Rudyard Kiplings 5 W's.................:asian:

Tess has a unique stance, my guess is adapted from Seig and further refined over time and experience sparring him. Very narrow frontal profile and good mobility. Now its just working on transitionary technique Flow, Tessmania has NO FEAR

I concur with Seig on class techniques, I can pretty much at will use the infamous "Stuffed Crust Shuffle" technique against round or angled kicks in sparring classes. ( Sparring for me is to teach less senior students skills, and maybe do some live lab experimenting once in a while.)

From my limited time training with the Mountaineers, I find Seig and myself use a lot of leg checks that could be quite easily converted to sumfin else.

Some of his students have also experienced running into a variation of a twist kick that is suddenly just "there" at leg level.
It NEVER connects, but its waiting patiently in the shadows.

kenpo3631

08-06-2002, 07:46 AM

I find myself using a high wide kneel allot. I see allot of the seniors doing the same. I think it is a more natural stance - allowing greater mobility. I think it is something you pick up on as you grow in the art though. :asian:

brianhunter

08-06-2002, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by jeffkyle

That is considered to be BatMan...and you shouldn't be messing with him, because Superman isn't far away!

I guess thats why you are good at teaching jeff.....you can put it into terms that people understand ;)

brianhunter

08-06-2002, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by satans.barber

Yeah, these things seem to govern the way schools are run more and more these days (which is why I was on about insurance and that...), I just hope it doesn't get to the point where it's so easy to sue someone (especially in America ;) *) that instructor's daren't let people spar anymore.

Ian.

* there was a story on the news here last week about a couple of big American lads who were taking McDonald's, BK and KFC to court in some sort of joint trial or something because they'd both had two heart attacks from fast food they were knowingly sold, and that is classed as a legitimate case over there?? Made me laugh anyway (the ridiculousness of the legal precident, not the fact they'd had heart attacks..)!

Hey Ian....did you ever read about the lady who went through a McDonalds drive thru burnt her own mouth drinking hot cofee and was awarded a few million dollars for it???? Our civil litigation courts do need some reworking currently there are alot of grass roots movements to put some integrity back into it...it shouldnt be a get rich quick scheme it should be an honest means of recovery...lawyers have taken it wayyyy too far.

Kirk

08-06-2002, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by brianhunter

Hey Ian....did you ever read about the lady who went through a McDonalds drive thru burnt her own mouth drinking hot cofee and was awarded a few million dollars for it???? Our civil litigation courts do need some reworking currently there are alot of grass roots movements to put some integrity back into it...it shouldnt be a get rich quick scheme it should be an honest means of recovery...lawyers have taken it wayyyy too far.

It was her inner thighs, she was in her 80's, and it was QUITE a
few million dollars. The initial award was for something like 75
million ..of course there was an appeal, but she still walked away
a millionaire.

Then there's the story about a guy who sued his neighbor
because his dog bit him. He was only awarded $75,000 because
the jury felt the one biten was PARTIALLY at fault since the dog
was tied up in the owners fenced in yard, while the one bitten
was shooting it with b.b.'s. :mad:

fanged_seamus

08-06-2002, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by kenpo3631

I find myself using a high wide kneel allot. I see allot of the seniors doing the same. I think it is a more natural stance - allowing greater mobility. I think it is something you pick up on as you grow in the art though. :asian:

"Inside Kung Fu" in the September 2002 issue has an article about reasons to keep your rear foot's heel raised in your stance ("The Rear Heel: Driving JKD's Fighting Machine"). When you look at a high wide kneel, it looks a lot like a neutral bow with your rear heel raised -- much like the fighting stance mentioned in the article. The raised heel allows for great mobility and explosiveness when moving. In fencing, you'll see the same thing (at least for foil and epee, I don't know about saber).

Personally, I think keeping the heel raised gives great mobility, and it can be dropped quickly to allow for bracing. It seems to be a little more "natural" when sparring.

Tad Finnegan

jeffkyle

08-06-2002, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Kirk

It was her inner thighs, she was in her 80's, and it was QUITE a
few million dollars. The initial award was for something like 75
million ..of course there was an appeal, but she still walked away
a millionaire.

Then there's the story about a guy who sued his neighbor
because his dog bit him. He was only awarded $75,000 because
the jury felt the one biten was PARTIALLY at fault since the dog
was tied up in the owners fenced in yard, while the one bitten
was shooting it with b.b.'s. :mad:

But i get fired, for a very lame reason and they had no solid proof, and i can't get my job back, or become a millionaire for it!
It all depends on what state you are in I guess.

Robbo

08-06-2002, 11:54 AM

Time to try your hand at teaching Kenpo for a living. :D

satans.barber

08-06-2002, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by brianhunter

Hey Ian....did you ever read about the lady who went through a McDonalds drive thru burnt her own mouth drinking hot cofee and was awarded a few million dollars for it???? Our civil litigation courts do need some reworking currently there are alot of grass roots movements to put some integrity back into it...it shouldnt be a get rich quick scheme it should be an honest means of recovery...lawyers have taken it wayyyy too far.

I hadn't no, but's that the kind of thing I was talking about! You just can't get away with stuff like that here, even no-win-no-fee solicitors wouldn't bother with it.

It's the amounts that get me! I mean if it was a few thousand quid then fair enough, but millions and million of dollars!?

We all love to hear these stories from accross the pond though! Always good for a laugh!

Ian.

Kirk

08-06-2002, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by jeffkyle

But i get fired, for a very lame reason and they had no solid proof, and i can't get my job back, or become a millionaire for it!
It all depends on what state you are in I guess.

Yeah... no idea what state it's in, I just read about it when it
happened. A friend of mine lost his job, for b.s. reasons too ...
no lawyer will look at him, even though they all said he has a
case .. just not one they think would pay huge amounts in a
short amount of time.

jeffkyle

08-06-2002, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Kirk

Yeah... no idea what state it's in, I just read about it when it
happened. A friend of mine lost his job, for b.s. reasons too ...
no lawyer will look at him, even though they all said he has a
case .. just not one they think would pay huge amounts in a
short amount of time.

It is like they say....99% of the bad lawyers give the other 1% a bad name.

Doc

08-06-2002, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

All the time.
:asian:

Same here. if you aren't using your stances then what are you doing? Of course the better you get the less your stances are discernable in a combat situation, but if they aren't there, then you won't be either.

jazkiljok

08-07-2002, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Doc

Same here. if you aren't using your stances then what are you doing? Of course the better you get the less your stances are discernable in a combat situation, but if they aren't there, then you won't be either.

EXACTLY. less discernable perhaps but still there. I posted the question because in some past discussions with other AK'ers i have heard how some felt that stances "disappeared" during street confrontations and that some contemporary self defense systems that didn't use stances were training "more realistically"- One went as far as to point out that he had vid tape of Ed Parker himself and his stances were hardly "discernable":shrug:

T’was simply curious as to others experience and viewpoints.

peace.

jeffkyle

08-07-2002, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by Robbo

Time to try your hand at teaching Kenpo for a living. :D

I am working on it! :)

OZman

08-10-2002, 01:36 PM

WilliamTLear

08-11-2002, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by OZman

I don't think we in Kenpo use "Really Deep" stances like the Okinowans, but correct stances; and the use of them in transitions is one of the things that makes Kenpo "Unique" IMO.:p

Sounds like you don't have a firm understanding as to the reason why the deep stances were developed in Okinawa... The environment they were born in made it quite necessary for their "correct" use.

Do you have any information that you can offer to support your implication of the Kenpo Way being the correct way? Do you know why the use of deep stances came about? And perhaps why they don't apply to everyday self defense situations today?

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, just trying to understand your point of view. Your statement seemed a little shallow, but perhaps I mis-understood the source.

Sincerely,
Billy Lear :asian:

P.S. I'm an avid Kenpo practitioner too, I just don't like discrediting something without investigating it first.

Sigung86

08-11-2002, 06:27 AM

Stances in Martial Arts are really as much cultural as they are technical. Today, we use higher stances in Kenpo than we did back in the late 60s and early 70s. Our culture is acclimated to having more room to move, and less discipline to stand in developmental stances for the length of time required to develop the deep strong stances, and the ability to move in them.

Dan

brianhunter

08-11-2002, 09:11 AM

So since weve gone onto deep stances.....I think they are great for development of strength and building power, but sometimes would seem not practical (at my job for instance) How many use them in practical applications such as SD techniques?

Sigung86

08-11-2002, 10:46 AM

As I started out last post. Stances are cultural, as are the various methods of applied self defense. Deep stances are not practical for a self defense that is not attuned to the uses of stances like that. In Kenpo, in the US, we have, perhaps, culturally, evolved, in this case, to a higher stance and more mobility. American Kenpo types of blocks have evolved to fit that type of stancing and mobility, as well as have the attack weapons.

If we begin to involve modifications that change zones, balance, and bases for attack, and defense, then the techniques will have to follow suite. They too will have to change. Blocking will have to be different, more along the lines of Tracy's Kenpo or Sub-Level 4 (which also uses stancing and base in a different and highly interesting and enlightening manner).

Why is that? Because when you go to a denser or more solid, and lower base, you change the zones that you have to defend, and how you defend them... You change areas of attack on the opponent's body that you have access to and how you get that access. You also change the availability and accessibility of your natural weapons.

Since the door has been opened ... Even though we have higher stances, as it were, we still depend on those stances to provide a base for balance, and delivery of power both in defense and offense. If you don't have a good solid base, and I've said this before, you aren't delivering your power. It then follows that you aren't in a position to defend as well. Granted, there are many other pieces that have to be fit in there, as well. But the base or stance, if you will, is the ... base ... Gotta have a good one.

And I won't go into kicking applications here, as I'm running out of room.... :lol:

But on a serious note ... You ought to really investigate the physiology of stances and balance, and the advanced concepts that are contained therein. Free up your head a little bit in how you move into and out of stances. For instance, just as a suggestion ... What happens in a cat stance (use Delayed Sword), if instead of pulling back to the cat stance, you move your left leg up the required space to come to the cat stance? Particularly in the area of balance, distancing, speed of power application and almost as importantly, your base and mobility?
This is, of course, assuming, that you move back to a neutral bow as you perform the initial block. If you don't, then this won't apply, and you are not using your distancing capabilities correctly.

Now, having said that, you don't have to use the stances. You don't have to flow through the stances, but you are missing a large part of your capability if you don't.

To the person who said he didn't think SGM Parker went through his stances, I would like to suggest that you watch the films with a little more of a weather eye. You will see, I think, that he flowed smoothly and quickly through his stances, and preserved his base. If the stances aren't important, why would the system have them in it?

Just some thoughts on stances.

Dan

Robbo

08-11-2002, 05:07 PM

To the person who said he didn't think SGM Parker went through his stances, I would like to suggest that you watch the films with a little more of a weather eye. You will see, I think, that he flowed smoothly and quickly through his stances, and preserved his base. If the stances aren't important, why would the system have them in it?

I've seen a few video clips of SGM Parker moving in forms and with SD techs. Trust me, even with my inexperianced eye his base looked stabilized when he hit. He just didn't hold it and scream out a kiai, he used it to get the job done and not impress anybody.

Rob

Doc

08-11-2002, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by Robbo

I've seen a few video clips of SGM Parker moving in forms and with SD techs. Trust me, even with my inexperianced eye his base looked stabilized when he hit. He just didn't hold it and scream out a kiai, he used it to get the job done and not impress anybody.

Rob

Very, very true. The stances were there. Ed Parker emphasized stances for those who would listen, but like everything else, if you didn't listen he let you do it your way. Many interpreted this incorrectly. He would show you something once, twice, maybe thrice. After that he would walk away and say, "that's fine." Many thought that meant they were doing it correct. It only meant you were doing the best you could do.

Additionally the comment regarding "stances being culturally influenced" is right on. The myth is the deep stances had to do with standing in rice paddys etc. More accurate would be the fact they were "training vehicles" misinterpreted from the Chinese. The Chinese did have applications for low stances mostly as fluid avoidance mechanisms. But when exported the Okinawan's and others seized onto the low training stances and attempted to find applications for them that didn't exist.

Look to classic Hung Gar and Chinese Kenpo forms like "Tiger and the Crane" for examples of training and exrcise forms. It contains deep low stances for strengthening the legs combined with breathing exercises, with repetitive hand movements in place for dynamic upper body developenent as well. A "training form" dropped from Kenpo by Ed Parker from all of his evolutionary interpretations of his art long ago.

Goldendragon7

08-11-2002, 09:01 PM

Doc

08-11-2002, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

I think the most practical of the stances become the kneel's. When you start to progress (my opinion) your mind and body just start using the close & wide kneel stances. I have found for myself that it just becomes more mobile and natural of the stances plus the upper belt material your neutral & forward bow start getting less and less. Just an opinion though.
Jason Farnsworth

The kneeling stances are for height adjustments and are not for lateral or linear offensive stability. It is a common mistake because it is easier than putting your heels properly down. With the heels up your strikes rely almost completely on momentum and lack the Bracing Angle present with a properly rooted stance. Therefore this heels up position fits well with competition reverse punches and lead hand techniques. This popular use of the heels up position is a testiment to how much sport qapplication has dictated and corrupted the use of basics.

ProfessorKenpo

08-11-2002, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Doc

The kneeling stances are for height adjustments and are not for lateral or linear offensive stability. It is a common mistake because it is easier than putting your heels properly down. With the heels up your strikes rely almost completely on momentum and lack the Bracing Angle present with a properly rooted stance. Therefore this heels up position fits well with competition reverse punches and lead hand techniques. This popular use of the heels up position is a testiment to how much sport qapplication has dictated and corrupted the use of basics.

The same could be argued about heel down stances. The forward bow is absolutely useless against a front kick from an angle or from an oncoming attack to the upper portion of the body, it just won't support the mass from those angles. I've demonstrated the use of stances and for what application and find the close/wide kneel stances are just as stable as the standard forward, neutral, or reverse, and that's using them laterally and linear and find no fault with them whatsoever when used correctly.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Rob_Broad

08-11-2002, 10:51 PM

It appears that this topic has been pretty well covered. Fom my own perspectice all I can say is the Stances have to work hand in hand with the Foot Maneuvres i.e step -drag, step through, cover step etc...

hand2handCombat

08-11-2002, 10:59 PM

yup, makes it much easier to fight

Sigung86

08-11-2002, 11:17 PM

Actually Clyde, I think your statement is not comprehensive. I suspect this is one of those times when you and I will agree to disagree! (That's never happened before! :lol: )

In actuality, this whole discussion is based on use of the lower "Okinawan style" or traditional Chinese stances as opposed to what Kenpo has assumed to use as it's stances, currently.

I, personally mind you, see use for both stances that you are comparing. Neither stance will fare well against a kick coming from an angle. However, it stands to reason that the standard bow will fare better than a kneel stance. Reason being, again, my opinion only, that you are based better and more solidly in the bow and arrow stance than in the kneel stances. Simply, you have more "square foot" (pun intended) on the floor, and from a physiological point of view you are, over all, better balanced and rooted, as you naturally settle in a stance that your body perceives as better rooted.

The discussion that you are trying to invoke has been going on since long before it's biggest instigator, the late Bruce Lee. I don't think that it has ever been conclusively settled outside of any of the divergent opinions.

Having also run the gamut of both sides, I feel, personally, better off with use of the standard, traditional stances, but have on occasion, used the kneels in an offensive fashion. The one "advantage" of the wide kneel in an offensive or defensive role is that you have more "reach", than in the traditional stances. But once again, your whole base of power generation has changed, and you are giving up some important things to gain speed.

On the other hand, I could have missed the entire point of your post. In that case I take back everything I said and we don't have to disagree!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Dan "what? Me misconstrue what Clyde said?" Farmer

ProfessorKenpo

08-12-2002, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by Sigung86

On the other hand, I could have missed the entire point of your post. In that case I take back everything I said and we don't have to disagree!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Dan "what? Me misconstrue what Clyde said?" Farmer

You're right Dan, I don't think we're on the same page on this one, so why don't you get the that Netmeeting thingy going so we can talk about it and maybe even demonstrate it, like I've been asking you to do for six months now LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Sigung86

08-12-2002, 08:56 AM

I surrendered on this freakin' compuker a month ago. Nothing gets the sound running again. I think I have to go back to ME to get it back, and it's really not worth all the heartache that comes with ME to do that EVIL thing! Especially now that I've upgraded my other hardware to be XP compliant.

Sorry Clyde ... You'll have to wait a while to hear the dulcet tones of my Ernest Borgnine-like voice. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo

You're right Dan, I don't think we're on the same page on this one, so why don't you get the that Netmeeting thingy going so we can talk about it and maybe even demonstrate it, like I've been asking you to do for six months now LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

brianhunter

08-12-2002, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Sigung86

I surrendered on this freakin' compuker a month ago. Nothing gets the sound running again. I think I have to go back to ME to get it back, and it's really not worth all the heartache that comes with ME to do that EVIL thing! Especially now that I've upgraded my other hardware to be XP compliant.

XP was sooooo good on driver selection....you did not read the instructions that stated you had to sacrifice a chicken (a bucket of KFC should suffice) Throw salt over each shoulder and light a candle for bill gates to get xp drivers to work???

jeffkyle

08-12-2002, 11:03 AM

Is the spawn of evil!!!!

Wertle

08-12-2002, 11:12 AM

never trust a version of Windows that includes the emoticon for someone squinting their eyes and sticking their tongue out in the title. XP thpppppppttt!

ProfessorKenpo

08-12-2002, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by Sigung86

I surrendered on this freakin' compuker a month ago. Nothing gets the sound running again. I think I have to go back to ME to get it back, and it's really not worth all the heartache that comes with ME to do that EVIL thing! Especially now that I've upgraded my other hardware to be XP compliant.

Sorry Clyde ... You'll have to wait a while to hear the dulcet tones of my Ernest Borgnine-like voice. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan

Hey Dan, shoot me an email with your phone # and maybe I can talk you thru getting the sound back. Can't wait to hear tha Gorgnine voice teehee.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Wes Idol

08-12-2002, 08:50 PM

I'm having similar problems with my computer...sound, video. If there is something that you know, I would appreciate any assistance. Win 2000 is such a stable environment, but I'm getting tired of the problems. Let me know.

Your friend,
WI

ProfessorKenpo

08-12-2002, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by Wes Idol

I'm having similar problems with my computer...sound, video. If there is something that you know, I would appreciate any assistance. Win 2000 is such a stable environment, but I'm getting tired of the problems. Let me know.

Your friend,
WI

You know my phone # I 'm home big guy

Clyde

Wes Idol

08-12-2002, 08:55 PM

I just posted! Thanks brotha, I'm calling now.

WI

ProfessorKenpo

08-12-2002, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by Wes Idol

I just posted! Thanks brotha, I'm calling now.

WI

Wife is on phone, give me a call in a few

Clyde

Wes Idol

08-12-2002, 09:00 PM

Not a huge deal, but it sounds like you might be an advisor on a couple levels.......myself just gettin' hitched in June. Anyhow, I'm off to a meeting that could keep me tied up until 10:00. Please shoot me an email about what times at night I could ring you up when I'm at my home computer.

WI

Rob_Broad

08-12-2002, 09:00 PM

All this talk about netmeeting and such should be in that thread not in the stances thread. When I get a little time later I will move the last several posts there.

Sorry for any inconvience.

Rob Broad
Mt Moderator

ProfessorKenpo

08-12-2002, 09:03 PM

Cool, wanted to watch Witchblade right now LOL, it's one of my favs I try not to miss and the computer is facing the TV YEEEEEHAAA:")

Clyde

Doc

08-12-2002, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by Sigung86

Actually Clyde, I think your statement is not comprehensive. I suspect this is one of those times when you and I will agree to disagree! (That's never happened before! :lol: )

In actuality, this whole discussion is based on use of the lower "Okinawan style" or traditional Chinese stances as opposed to what Kenpo has assumed to use as it's stances, currently.

I, personally mind you, see use for both stances that you are comparing. Neither stance will fare well against a kick coming from an angle. However, it stands to reason that the standard bow will fare better than a kneel stance. Reason being, again, my opinion only, that you are based better and more solidly in the bow and arrow stance than in the kneel stances. Simply, you have more "square foot" (pun intended) on the floor, and from a physiological point of view you are, over all, better balanced and rooted, as you naturally settle in a stance that your body perceives as better rooted.

The discussion that you are trying to invoke has been going on since long before it's biggest instigator, the late Bruce Lee. I don't think that it has ever been conclusively settled outside of any of the divergent opinions.

Having also run the gamut of both sides, I feel, personally, better off with use of the standard, traditional stances, but have on occasion, used the kneels in an offensive fashion. The one "advantage" of the wide kneel in an offensive or defensive role is that you have more "reach", than in the traditional stances. But once again, your whole base of power generation has changed, and you are giving up some important things to gain speed.

On the other hand, I could have missed the entire point of your post. In that case I take back everything I said and we don't have to disagree!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Dan "what? Me misconstrue what Clyde said?" Farmer

The point is Mr. Farmer each stance is designed for a particular application, and the original question was with regard to punching and the "heels up" position. Extending a punch and having someone push on it while in a wide or close kneel will answer that question. Also any lateral pressure on those stances will yield and unbalanced posture. the stances are designed for offensive and defesive execution on a vertical plane.

Sigung86

08-12-2002, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by Doc

The point is Mr. Farmer each stance is designed for a particular application, and the original question was with regard to punching and the "heels up" position. Extending a punch and having someone push on it while in a wide or close kneel will answer that question. Also any lateral pressure on those stances will yield and unbalanced posture. the stances are designed for offensive and defesive execution on a vertical plane.

:asian:

dan

Goldendragon7

08-13-2002, 03:01 AM

:confused:

brianhunter

08-13-2002, 09:53 AM

Okay in English now for the slow people

Kirk

08-15-2002, 04:29 PM

Come to find out in class this week that my stances weren't
where they should be. My knees weren't out past my toes.
So working on them in class, and every free minute outside
of class, I'm working on it. My legs are SOOOOOOOORE!!!!

I've been brushing my teeth in a horse stance, showering
in a horse stance, in the elevator alone in a horse stance, etc.
I also kind of bounce up and down a little from a horse stance.
Just to build up the strength to STAY in any stance during
class, or in a fight.

Does anyone have any other exercises they could recommend
to help me along?

Doc

08-15-2002, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Kirk

Come to find out in class this week that my stances weren't
where they should be. My knees weren't out past my toes.
So working on them in class, and every free minute outside
of class, I'm working on it. My legs are SOOOOOOOORE!!!!

I've been brushing my teeth in a horse stance, showering
in a horse stance, in the elevator alone in a horse stance, etc.
I also kind of bounce up and down a little from a horse stance.
Just to build up the strength to STAY in any stance during
class, or in a fight.

Does anyone have any other exercises they could recommend
to help me along?

The best way to improve your stances is to use them. Don't move any faster than your stances will allow. Otherwise your uppe rbody begins to move independently. What we call a "disconnect." You need your entire body on EVERY move. This practice will slow you down at first. I was taught to learn, move, and teach from the floor up. All that activity of the upper body must be supported by the proper stance at the proper time.