Genbukan and Bujinkan

[Cthulhu]

It looks like we've got board members from both of these branches of ninjutsu. Could you two compare and contrast the two systems, perhaps? For the longest time, I was only familiar with Bujinkan ninjutsu. It was only 5 years ago or so that I became of Tanemura's Genbukan ninjutsu. I think they both stem from Togakure Ryu ninjutsu, but I'd like to hear about differences in training, philosophy, etc.

Damn, I'm nosey :D

Cthulhu

[Aoshi]

I would be interested to hear about the differences too but it would take a person who has practiced in both systems to tell the differences. So, anyone?

[Cthulhu]

Maybe, maybe not. A person from one system could describe how they do such-and-such, and the person from the other system would describe how they do it.

Cthulhu

[Aoshi]

Well, I can describe the Bujinkan side (what little I know + the teachers and friends from whom I can always ask what I don't know). But IMHO the topic is quite wide so where to start?

[higuma]

Cthulu,

I think you need to be a bit more specific with your inquery. I will answer some questions about the Bujinkan to the best of my ability. Please keep in mind though, that there are facets of this art that I will not discuss on the net.

Aoshi,

After reading your profile, I noticed that you and I share a birthday (give or take a few years...). Oddly, we share a birthday with Nagato-shihan as well. Who are you training with?

[Cthulhu]

Yeah, I could be a bit more specific, Higuma. However, I was hoping the Bujinkan and Genbukan people would start this on their own, on the forum for the benefit of other nosey people like myself :D

Just for example...pick a specific thing, like ichimonji. Genbukan feller describes the principles and applications of it. Bujinkan feller describes the principles and applications of it. Any differences are discussed/argued/compared/etc.

Cthulhu

[higuma]

ichimonji?

ichimonji no kamae or ichimonji no kata? And if it is ichimonji no kata, to which application are you referring?

If it is ichimonji no kamae, to which ryu are you referring?

I will assume, for the sake of expediency, that you mean to say ichimonji no kamae since that is readily found in the abundance of available books by certain ninja authors. Additionally, I wil address this in as generic a manner as possible so as to not need to differentiate between ryu-ha.

Ichimonji no kamae is not a technique. It is kamae. A transitory posture you may find yourself in between points A and B.

Ichimonji is, many circles, a largely overused and misunderstood term. This is a result of a lack of understanding on the part of certain instructors to be able to recognize ichimonji from other "similar" kamae (seigan, bobi, ichi, shoshin, ihen, etc). As a result "ichimonji" has become a rather nebulous, nonspecific, catch all type of terminology in those circles that is used to refer to any kamae that has one foot forward, one foot back, and a lead hand pointing at the opponent.

Now, that said, what next?

[Cthulhu]

Yeah, that's the general idea.

Higuma said:

Ichimonji no kamae is not a technique. It is kamae.

Yeah, I know :D That's why I called it a 'thing', for lack of a better word at the time.

Still, what I was hoping would happen is that the Genbukan and Bujinkan folks would compare and contrast here and us nosey peoples would benefit by reading the material. Guess I bombed that, eh? :)

Cthulhu
PS I was unaware of an ichimonji no kata. Guess my buddy quit going to the Atlanta Bujinkan dojo before he learned that :)

[Jay Bell]

Hey all,

I wish I would have known about this board before...looks pretty gr00vy. Okay, so the question was the differences between Genbukan and Bujinkan..

Well, the Bujinkan is comprimised of blending together 9 koryu that Hatsumi sensei is Soke of, as well as methods from other traditions that Sensei has Menkyo Kaiden within.

Soke
-------
Gyokko ryu Kosshijutsu
Koto ryu Koppojutsu
Gikan ryu Koppojutsu
Togakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu
Shinden Fudo ryu Dakentaijutsu
Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu
Hontai Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu
Kumogakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu
Gyokushin ryu Ninpo Taijutsu

Menkyo Kaidensha
-----------------------
Bokuden ryu Taijutsu
Masaki ryu Manrikigusari
Asayama Ichiden ryu Taijutsu
etc

So...what specific questions did you folks have in mind?

Take care,

Jay

[Cthulhu]

Thanks, Jay! Can someone provide that same kind of info on Genbukan?

Cthulhu

[Jay Bell]

Before I go any further, I am *not* a member of the Genbukan. So this information is just what I have learned through knowing members over the years.

The Genbukan Ninpo side of the organizations bases it's knowledge on Togakure ryu, Kukishin ryu, Gikan ryu, Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, Kijin Chosui ryu and Shinden Fudo ryu.

The Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei side bases it's teachings on Hontai Takagi Yoshin ryu, Kukishin ryu, Asayama Ichiden ryu, Shinden Tatara ryu, Bokuden ryu, Yagyu Shingan ryu, Tenshin ryu
Itten Ryushin Chukai ryu and Araki Shin ryu.

Tanemura Shoto also teaches a style of Bagua and Chikung..I don't really have much information on that however.

[Cthulhu]

That's still a load of info...thanks, Jay!

Cthulhu

[Jay Bell]

No problem :D

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Jay Bell

Well, the Bujinkan is comprimised of blending together 9 koryu that Hatsumi sensei is Soke of, as well as methods from other traditions that Sensei has Menkyo Kaiden within.

Soke
-------
Gyokko ryu Kosshijutsu
Koto ryu Koppojutsu
Gikan ryu Koppojutsu
Togakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu
Shinden Fudo ryu Dakentaijutsu
Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu
Hontai Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu
Kumogakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu
Gyokushin ryu Ninpo Taijutsu


I see only the first 8 listed in Dr. Hatsumi's Ninjutsu. History and Traditions. Was this an oversight or did he only gain soke-hood of this system after the publication of the book?



Menkyo Kaidensha
-----------------------
Bokuden ryu Taijutsu
Masaki ryu Manrikigusari
Asayama Ichiden ryu Taijutsu
etc


For all 12 systems here I'd be interested in seeing a short description of what they are and what's distinctive about them. Masaki ryu Manrikigusari I presume refers to the weapon included in its name, and all the Taijutsu systems I imagine are empty-hand systems; Koppojutsu I believe refers to jujutsu systems emphasizing attacks on bones?

[arnisador]

Are the black belts given in Bujinkan, rather than the subsystems of which it is comprised (Togakure ryu Ninpo Taijutsu, etc.), or is it a simultaneous belt in each of the 9 or more arts? Does Dr. Hatsumi award menkyos in those arts or does he only use the dan system now?

[Jay Bell]

I see only the first 8 listed in Dr. Hatsumi's Ninjutsu. History and Traditions. Was this an oversight or did he only gain soke-hood of this system after the publication of the book?

It was actually an oversight.

All of the Taijutsu schools also have weapons:

Gyokko ryu Kosshijutsu - Daisho, some believe there to exist bojutsu in it as well

Koto ryu Koppojutsu - Kenjutsu

Shinden Fudo ryu - Ono, Monpa, Naginata, Bisento, Hojojutsu, Yari, Ken

and so on..

The schools that I'm not certain as far as weapons are Kumogakure ryu, Gyokushin ryu and Gikan ryu. I've heard that Gikan ryu had hanbo and jutte, but I wouldn't say it to be fact. Kumogakure ryu does use kamayari and iron bands on the forearms, but I can't be sure of what else beyond that.

Most schools of Japanese budo have weapon work as well as unarmed. Shinto Muso ryu does not have unarmed techniques however, I'm sure there are more that don't apply to this as well.

If you take a look at Matts Hjelm's website (http://www.kabuto.nu) it can give you a pretty good description of what each school contains. The kusari fundo within the Bujinkan stems from Masaki ryu. The Bokuden ryu I've seen from Sensei was all video footage of him doing muto dori (sword vs. unarmed). Asayama Ichiden ryu is a Jujutsu school that (according the them...see the Ueno Takashi 20 year Aniversary Embu book) has close ties to Daito ryu. Nothing I've seen from Asayama Ichiden ryu however looks or feels much like Daito ryu at all.

Originally in the Bujinkan, the rank certificates were given in all nine schools. Then it became "Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu". Now rank certificates are given in "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu".

I hope that helps some...have a good one,

Jay

[arnisador]

Thanks once again for all this info. as well as the link Jay. I'll check out the link now.

[arnisador]

This is a fantastic website! There's an incredible amount o finformation here. It's a bit dark, unfortunately (the ninja theme?), with blue-on-black lettering, but it's chock full of information.

http://www.kabuto.nu/

[Makoto-Dojo]

Hello,

I would like to respond to your question about Genbukan vs Bujinkan how they are different. I would like to preface with saying, I have a yon Dan in the Bujinkan after 18 years of training in the art. I have trained in Genbukan since 1998 and am a Dojo-Cho (Official Dojo owner assigned by Tanemura Sensei) of Genbukan USA makoto Dojo.

On to the question:

-First, while in the Bujinkan I ran into people who were very good, and some who were VERY bad! Some of the terrible ones were high level ranks. Some of the great ones were LOW level ranks! LOL! This stems from the fact that there are no standards for ranking in Bujinkan and it is left up to each Dojo. Hatsumi Sensei himself seems to give rank out carelessly and freely

-In the Genbukan, the ranking is VERY specific and the same around the world. There are 300 techniques up to first kyu that must be tested in public and held to the world wide standard for performance. You receive a percentage grade and letter grade that goes on your permanent record. You must get at least 85% to pass.

-In the Bujinkan, it was very difficult to learn even the basic techniques correctly. Hatsumi Sensei changes how he teaches them each time he teaches them! All of his Japanese teachers do them in different ways, and in America so many people would learn a technique half way then mix it with their own ideas

-In Genbukan, each basic technique and kata are done exactly the same way world wide as the BASIC form, this way the authentic correct technique is perserved and transmitted. Only after you master the basic version are you encouraged to explore past that.

-In Bujinkan you receive rank in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. It used to be Ninpo Taijutsu but that has changed.

-In Genbukan you receive rank in Genbukan Ninpo Bugei, at third degree black belt, you can train in one of the ryu ha that make up the art and actually receive TRADITIONAL ranking scrolls and Densho (secret books) up to Menkyo kaiden level along with the dan grades in Ninpo Bugei.

-In Bujinkan, all of the arts Ninpo and jujutsu are mixed together mostly hatsumi Sensei's interpretation of these arts which he is always changing. he has said bujinkan is faster than the internet it changes from second to second...

-In Genbukan, we strive to maintain the traditional Japanese art of Ninpo/Ninjutsu and Jujutsu. It is not about Tanemura Soke's interpretation of the arts, instead it is faithful to the densho and kuden he received.

-In Bujinkan the Ninja/ninpo aspects are downplayed

-In Genbukan Ninpo is ninpo! We teach Shuriken (there are actual kamae, and throwing techniques that are practiced) Kiai Jutsu, Kuji Kiri, Mikkyo, shinto etc...

-The Bujinkan shys away from the religious side of the art

-In the Genbukan, Tanemura Sensei teaches as Takamatsu Sensei taught and Hatsumi Sensei USED to teach. Shumon and Bumon Martial gate and Spiritual gate. Side by side. Amatsu Tatara Shinto is a big part of the art with meditations, kuji kiri kuden etc...

-In Bujinkan, weapons are thrown in with everything else as part of Budo Taijutsu. The traditional training is not stressed, instead inovative usage of traditional and modern weapons are encouraged.

-In Genbukan, we learn weapons outside of our basic taijutsu training. They are a study onto themselves. We earn seperate kyu and dan grads for weapons as well as menkyo. We study them step by step, for example in sword, 9th kyu has how to take a sword apart, clean it, examine it, bow with it. Safety, how to tie sageo names of parts etc... How to hold, how to cut everything step by step to master level.

Hatsumi Sensei takes his art of budo taijutsu from the nine arts he received from Takamatsu Sensei. In addition, the arts he received menkyo in from Ueno Sensei. Since 1973 he has been without a teacher.

-Tanemura Sensei has studied with hatsumi Sensei until 1984 receiving menkyo kaiden in many of the 9 schools and being vice president of bujinkan. Since then, he trained with Kimura Sensei maybe the closest student of Takamatsu Sensei, and Sato kinbei Sensei who was also a student of Takamatsu Sensei and received Soke-ship and menkyo kaiden in various arts. Tanemura Sensei trained with these men until the last one died in 2000. In addition, he trained with Fukumoto Sensei who was Ura Soke of Togakure Ryu and received his scrolls and kuden, he is still friends with Aikimoto Sensei's Son with whom he learned many kuden and received scrolls, and has training in the ueno line as well. he to this day has a teacher in Itto Ryu Iaido as he continues to develop the Genbukan.

Overall, Bujinkan is good for people who are more free spirited and like to be able to do their own thing. the stress is on the "essence" of the arts. many people add many things to the Bujinakn and get away with it. Fire walks, new age teachings, you name it

Genbukan is much more strict and is a traditional JAPANESE school FIRST! From that base you can explore, but never are you allowed to infect the base system with outside influence. it is to remain pure. We do however spar, and practice our art against other arts.

Bujinkan training is very soft and playful with flow and experimentation being the priority. People throw weapons to each other, wear tye-dyed tee-shirts in the Dojo, talk swear... It is VERY relaxed, like woodstock LOL!

Genbukan is very hardcore. Manners are stressed, training is intense with many repetitions of the basics over and over again. You will be sweating LOL!

Last is the sword test. In Bujinkan you take a sword test at 5th dan with a bamboo sword from behind. It is well known that Hatsumi Sensei passes who he wants. Why he does this is anyones guess. he will squeek the sword, make a noise, pull it short etc... Now he is letting some "14th dans" do it while under his supervision

In Genbukan the test is real. You must first master the physical side testing on technique then you can take the sword test when Sensei feels you are ready, this could be years after passing the physical test. The first sword test is from the front with a bamboo sword for the title of renshi. The next one is bamboo from behind, for the title of Kyoshi.

Next is from behind with a REAL cutting sword straight down for Jun-Shihan. After that we have on from behind with a real cutting sword making a + sign sideways, then down. Last for next gradmaster is cutting freely with a cutting blade in all directions and you must CATCH the sword with your hands!


I hesitate to respond to these questions because they are sensitive issues. Although I stated the facts above, I am sure some may take offense. But alas I answered your question truthfully. Bujinkan is the best thing in the world for some people. Maybe for you too you never know unless you try it. Some people will never like the Genbukan. Even though I am genbukan, there are some aspects of the Bujinkan I like better, they better fit with my personality.

I hope that helps.

Kind regards,

[heretic888]

Last is the sword test. In Bujinkan you take a sword test at 5th dan with a bamboo sword from behind. It is well known that Hatsumi Sensei passes who he wants. Why he does this is anyones guess. he will squeek the sword, make a noise, pull it short etc...

whoo-boy....:erg:

[Klondike93]

Originally in the Bujinkan, the rank certificates were given in all nine schools. Then it became "Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu". Now rank certificates are given in "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu".

Why the change and what's the difference between Ninpo and Budo?


:asian:

[Jay Bell]

According to Hatsumi sensei, he wanted to get away from the public image of the "ninja".

[heretic888]

Yup. It's hard to get people to take a self-transformative martial art seriously when they are thinking about wearing black pajamas while sneaking on golf courses at night.

As far as I can tell, there is still a HUGE 'ninja' or 'ninpo' basis to pretty much all the ryuha in Bujinkan (except for maybe Takagi Yoshin-ryu) but this is somewhat 'hidden' due to the negative Hollywood cliches concerning 'ninjitsu' (<< stupid spelling, hee hee hee).

An example of this still-present 'ninja influence' can be seen in Gyokko-ryu. Hakuunsai Tozawa, the founder and first soke of Gyoko-ryu (which I have heard described as a 'samurai jujutsu' school before), was also a jonin of Iga-ryu Ninpo (you dont get much more 'ninja' then that! :D ) and his name suggests connections to Hakuun-ryu ninjutsu. In addition, one of the 'nine rules' of the Gyokko-ryu involves what the meaning of the kanji character "NIN" (of ninja, ninjutsu, and ninpo) actually means. There's kuji, too.

I do not believe Gyokko-ryu is alone is this 'ninja culture' influence, but then again, whatta I know??:p

Ninpo ikkan.

[Jay Bell]

heretic,

That's not really correct. Before Hakuunsai Tozawa "founded" Gyokko ryu, there were four people before him in the lineage. Also...Iga ryu Ninjutsu didn't exist until around the 14th generation of Gyokko ryu. Momochi Sandayu was Soke of Gyokko ryu...and founded Iga ryu Ninjutsu.

Gyokko ryu *is* a Ninpo ryuha, for all intensive purposes. It's not strictly Ninpo, but the Ninja no Kissoku comes from this school.

The "kuji" that you brought up is the Gassho of Gyokko ryu. Ten ryaku uchu gassho, Futen gassho and Hanabonetsu Gassho...which you begin in depending on the level that is being studied.

Iga Hakuun ryu Ninpo has strong ties with Togakure ryu Ninpo. Going by people's names isn't a sure bet that they have something to do with a school.

Buyu Ikkan

[heretic888]

oh well, at least it's kinda correct!!!:rofl:


Before Hakuunsai Tozawa "founded" Gyokko ryu, there were four people before him in the lineage.

Hmm, really? Could you elaborate on this a bit?? I am very interested in the historical aspects of the ryuha....


Also...Iga ryu Ninjutsu didn't exist until around the 14th generation of Gyokko ryu. Momochi Sandayu was Soke of Gyokko ryu...and founded Iga ryu Ninjutsu.

Whoa, okay, now I'm a bit confoosed.:confused:

If I recall correctly, in "Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions", Dr. Hatsumi described Gamon Doshi (a Chinese mystic and student of a warrior named Ikai) as the first 'jonin' or grandmaster' or whatever of the Iga-ryu, which was sometime around 1050 CE or so. Hakuunsai Tozawa was about fourth or fifth down, I think. Garyu Doshi, founder of Hakuun-ryu, and Daisuke Togakure, founder of Togakure-ryu, were also identified as Iga-ryu jonin by Hatsumi. Could you please clarify, por favor?


Gyokko ryu *is* a Ninpo ryuha, for all intensive purposes. It's not strictly Ninpo, but the Ninja no Kissoku comes from this school.

Umm....I think that's what I said.......;)



The "kuji" that you brought up is the Gassho of Gyokko ryu. Ten ryaku uchu gassho, Futen gassho and Hanabonetsu Gassho...which you begin in depending on the level that is being studied.

Yikes! :eek: someone just went over my head! whoosh!


Iga Hakuun ryu Ninpo has strong ties with Togakure ryu Ninpo.

Yes, if I recall correctly Kagakure Doshi (Daisuke Togakure's teacher) was a student of Hakuun-ryu.

Ninpo Ikkan.

[Jay Bell]

Here's the kazuu for Gyokko ryu -

Ikai
Hogenbo, Tesshun
Sasabe, Tendo
Hachiryu, Nyudo
1. Tozawa, Hakuunsai
2. Tozawa, Shozuke
3. Suzuki, Saburo Shigeyoshi
4. Suzuki, Gobei
5. Suzuki, Kojiro Mitsu
6. Tozawa, Nyudo Geneai
7. Yamon, Hyoun
8. Kato, Ryu Hakuun
9. Sakagami, Goro Katsushige
10. Sakagami, Taro Kunishige
11. Sakagami, Kotaro Masahide
12. Sougyoko, Kan Ritsushi
13. Toda, Sakyo Ishinsai
14. Momochi, Sandayu 1 (Found of Iga ryu)
15. Momochi, Sandayu 2
16. Momochi, Tanba Yasumitsu
17. Momochi, Taro Saemon
18. Toda, Seiryu Nobutsuna
19. Toda, Fudo Nobuchika
20. Toda, Kangoro Nobuyasu
21. Toda, Eisaburo Nobumasa
22. Toda, Shinbei Masachika
23. Toda, Shingoro Masayoshi
24. Toda, Daigoro Chikashige
25. Toda, Daisaburo Chikashige
26. Toda, Shinryuken Masamitsu
27. Takamatsu, Toshitsugu
28. Hatsumi, Masaaki

The term "Iga ryu" can be misleading. There are Iga ryuha...schools that were born and bred from the Iga province...and also there was a Iga ryu Ninjutsu school.


Umm....I think that's what I said.......

I was just restating it in agreement ;)

[heretic888]

Here's the kazuu for Gyokko ryu

What the hell is a kazuu??:confused:

Izzat like soke or jonin or something??


Ikai
Hogenbo, Tesshun
Sasabe, Tendo
Hachiryu, Nyudo
1. Tozawa, Hakkunsai

Ah, yes..... Hatsumi also spoke of Hogenbo and Tendo in "Essence of Ninjutsu" (he was talking about an old tale Takamatsu had told him), and I am pretty certain he identified all those men as 'ninja'.

I once read on a Bujinkan site that the name 'Ikai' (or 'Ibou', its Chinese equivalent) implies a 'foreign person', and that Ikai was really Chan Busho (the supposed 'founder' [of sorts] of Koto-ryu teachings). Do you know anything about this??

I believe that I read in one of Mats Hjelm's articles that Hachiryu Nyudo was a student of Hakuun-ryu and passed the teachings on to Hakuunsai Tozawa. Then again, I'm not sure..... I got the general impression that 'Iga-ryu', Togakure-ryu, 'Gyokko-ryu', 'Koto-ryu', and Hakuun-ryu were all tightly involved and interrelated.


The term "Iga ryu" can be misleading. There are Iga ryuha...schools that were born and bred from the Iga province...and also there was a Iga ryu Ninjutsu school.

Oh, ok. So, tell me...... exactly which "Iga-ryu Ninpo" was Hatsumi talking about with Gamon Doshi as the first jonin or whatever and that also included Hakuunsai Tozawa, Daisuke Togakure, and Garyu Doshi as masters at one point???? I believe that on one of his articles, Mats Hjelm's stated that the "Iga-ryu" did not have soke (because it wasnt a martial lineage, per se) but jonin....


I was just restating it in agreement

yay for me! :D

Ninpo Ikkan.

[Jay Bell]

Founder Toda Sakyô Isshinsai received the tradition of Gyokko-Ryû ****ôjutsu from Sakagami Tarô Kunishige in the Tenmon period (1532-1550), and created Gyokko-Ryû Kosshijutsu and Kotô-Ryû Koppôjutsu, which he taught to Momochi Sandayû and were handed down within Iga-Ryû Ninjutsu and reached Toda Shinryûken at the end of the Tokugawa shôgunate (mid-19th century). Thus the foundation of the Togakure Ryû, which draws upon the traditions of Iga Ryû, is the Taijutsu of Gyokko-Ryû Kosshijutsu and Kotô-Ryû Koppôjutsu.

That was part of an article written by Manaka sensei on the history of Gyokko ryu.

I'll write more when I have some time.

Have a good one

[heretic888]

so, tell me..... which "Iga-ryu" was Hatsumi specifically referring to in Essence of Ninjutsu in which Ikai and Gamon Doshi were the 'founders' in your opinion??? Apparently, Hakuunsai Tozawa was the 'fourth grandmaster' of this Iga-ryu......

And what is a kazuu??

[Jay Bell]

which "Iga-ryu" was Hatsumi specifically referring to in Essence of Ninjutsu in which Ikai and Gamon Doshi were the 'founders' in your opinion???

No idea...doesn't make much sense to me


And what is a kazuu??

It's a list of the Soke of a lineage

The line above was edited..

It should be - Founder Toda Sakyô Isshinsai received the tradition of Gyokko-Ryû S.h.i.t.ôjutsu

[heretic888]

Thanks for the info, Jay. :D

I have a theory about the 'Iga-ryu' that Hatsumi-soke describes in Essence of Ninjutsu. This theory of mine has been influenced by what I have read in Essence of Ninjutsu and Mats Hjelm's very informative articles concerning ninpo history, as well as my own speculation. Here goes...

I believe that the Iga-ryu that Hatsumi-soke is talking about is not actually a specific ryuha. In one of his articles concerning Iga-ryu history, Mats Hjelm seems to identify the 'grandmasters' of this Iga-ryu NOT as soke (head of a ryuha) but as jonin (head of a ninpo organization or network). I believe this 'Iga-ryu' was more like a collective of specific martial arts lineages developed and used to protect the people of Iga. In this regard, the Bujinkan Dojo could be viewed as a modern-day incarnation of this 'Iga-ryu'.

Thus, this 'Iga-ryu', this broad collective of martial arts within Iga encompassed a large diversity of ryuha at different points in time: Koto-ryu, Gyokko-ryu, Kumogakure-ryu, Togakure-ryu, Gikan-ryu Gyokushin-ryu, Hakuun-ryu, and Kukishin-ryu all being notable examples. All of the ryuha of the Bujinkan seem to be Iga-ryu schools, although I am not so sure about Shinden Fudo-ryu (does this school have connections to the Fudo-ryu school of ninjutsu?) or the Takagi Yoshin-ryu. Almost all these schools can be traced back to having been developed by a relatively small group of men (Ikai, Gamon Doshi, Garyu Doshi, Kagakure Doshi, Hakuunsai Tozawa, Iga Heinabe Yasukiyo, etc etc.), and thus have a common origin and culture.

There is an interesting point about the Kumogakure-ryu that Mr. Hjelms makes: "[...] IGA Heinabe Yasukio seem to be the basis of the knowledge that IGA Heinai Zaemon Nojo Ieanaga, his descendant in the 12th generation, used when he founded a school, also named IGA RYU, but which later had its name changed to Kumogakure Ryu Ninpo [...] Another interesting point worth a note is that Iga Ryu and Kumogakure Ryu who is listed among the single Ryu, is in principle the same Ryu. Since Iga Ryu changed its name to Kumogakure Ryu."

So, it seems there WAS a specific Iga-ryu martial art, but that this had its name changed and is now the modern-day Kumogakure-ryu.

In other words, there was the Iga-ryu as a unifying network of ninpo traditions, of which Gamon Doshi was the first jonin, and there was the Iga-ryu as a specific martial arts school, which later had its name changed to Kumogakure-ryu. And, in a certain sense, any martial art ryuha from Iga could always just call itself an 'Iga-ryu'. So, it's very tricky when trying to define what one means by THE 'Iga-ryu'. Regardless, I think the 'broad collective of ninja ryuha Iga-ryu' is the Iga-ryu Hatsumi is talkin about in Essence of Ninjutsu.

What do you think of my theory??

[Jay Bell]

Another interesting point worth a note is that Iga Ryu and Kumogakure Ryu who is listed among the single Ryu, is in principle the same Ryu. Since Iga Ryu changed its name to Kumogakure Ryu

I've never found anything that backed that information, though I have read it on Matts' site before.

More correctly, all of the schools you listed (including Shinden Fudo ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu) stem from the Amatsu Tatara.

Shinden Fudo ryu has no ties with Fudo ryu Ninpo.

Within the Bujinkan today, all of the information that we study has Ninpo in it. With the methods and approach to the material, it's all Ninpo.

[heretic888]

More correctly, all of the schools you listed (including Shinden Fudo ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu) stem from the Amatsu Tatara.

True, true, but I think what I said about Iga-ryu still applies. And, I think that was what Hatsumi-soke was referencing in Essence of Ninjutsu.

Does the Amatsu Tatara have any particular links or signifcance to the ninpo traditions of Iga??? I have heard stories and theories linking 'ninpo' to VERY ancient times (which are briefly touched upon in Essence of Ninjutsu), as far back as 660 BCE, but I don't know if they have any validity to them....


Within the Bujinkan today, all of the information that we study has Ninpo in it. With the methods and approach to the material, it's all Ninpo.

Bujinkan NINPO, eh? Interesting........... :asian:

Ninpo ikkan.

[Jay Bell]

As far as I'm aware, all traditions of Iga have ties to the Amatsu Tatara.

Can a Genbukan chap validate this?

[heretic888]

i see, i see....... but, tell me: what makes the Amatsu Tatara so special to Iga-ryu Ninpo, eh??? I was under the impression that the Amatsu Tatara covered martial arts in general (among other things), so why would it be of particular or special importance to the Iga ninja martial culture???

i'm not trying to sound demeaning or insulting here, but wouldn't the Amatsu Tatara have as much 'ties' to Iga-ryu ninpo as any other Japanese martial art, or is there something different that i'm missing here??

regardless, thanks for the info. :D

[Makoto-Dojo]

Originally posted by heretic888

i see, i see....... but, tell me: what makes the Amatsu Tatara so special to Iga-ryu Ninpo, eh??? I was under the impression that the Amatsu Tatara covered martial arts in general (among other things), so why would it be of particular or special importance to the Iga ninja martial culture???

i'm not trying to sound demeaning or insulting here, but wouldn't the Amatsu Tatara have as much 'ties' to Iga-ryu ninpo as any other Japanese martial art, or is there something different that i'm missing here??

regardless, thanks for the info. :D

These questions would best be answered by simply getting a personal teacher in a DIRECT Linegae of Amatsu Tatara Bumon and Shumon as well as Iga derived Ninpo traditions.

The answers are there of course and it's more interesting than you may imagine. However, to be blunt, your not going to get anything of much value by asking questions to an internet forum.

I understand your just making conversation. But I ask you to understand that what's in "the family" stays in the "family" those who would proclaim knowledge of such matters are exactly the people who know nothing on the subject.

This is all kuden which is based on trust and relationship and TIME. I am just being honest with you as to how the situation works.

So for the sake of casual conversation, yes Amatsu Tatara is VERY connected to Togakure Ryu for an example. As to why and how, well find a connected teacher Tanemura Sensei is the current Grand Master of Amatsu Tatara Bumon and Shumon.

Regards,

[heretic888]

The answers are there of course and it's more interesting than you may imagine.

Yes, well I suspected as such...... very little in life is black and white.


I understand your just making conversation. But I ask you to understand that what's in "the family" stays in the "family" those who would proclaim knowledge of such matters are exactly the people who know nothing on the subject.

This is all kuden which is based on trust and relationship and TIME. I am just being honest with you as to how the situation works.

Yes, I understand all that. Honesty is the best policy, they say.

But, I do not wish for you to publicize any kind of great 'ninja secrets' or whatnot, just some basic historical information. I actually know very little about the Amatsu Tatara, so ANY info (especially as it applies to ninpo) would be much appreciated.

All I can say is: post what information (if any) you feel is appropriate for the forum. Thanks.

[Makoto-Dojo]

Originally posted by heretic888

Yes, well I suspected as such...... very little in life is black and white.



Yes, I understand all that. Honesty is the best policy, they say.

But, I do not wish for you to publicize any kind of great 'ninja secrets' or whatnot, just some basic historical information. I actually know very little about the Amatsu Tatara, so ANY info (especially as it applies to ninpo) would be much appreciated.

All I can say is: post what information (if any) you feel is appropriate for the forum. Thanks.

Hi,

the problem I personally have is this. I don't think any of it belongs on any forum.... Lets say this. With out Amatsu Tatara I don't feel there would be such an animal as Togakure ryu today.

I am not trying to make a big deal of all this. Look it's like this. There are many Kuden in Genbukan. It takes years of building trust with Tanemura Sensei to get these kuden. Another route is to EARN the trust of a teacher who may give different kuden.

These oral teachings are not meant to be spread out on forums to people who just ask. You see? Kuden is VERY important in Genbukan Ninpo. We are all very aware of what information is out and about to the public. but there is so much more that is secret, word of mouth between two people.

This is how Ninpo has always been. So many people are used to clicking a button and getting what they want> Even in Bujinkan VERY little of ninpo is known to the public. Many times people would put information on sites etc.. and most times this information is just wrong.

The stuff you see in books and videos and on internet is really BASIC stuff, so minor in the big picture that it matters little that it's out there. Ninpo is a closed door system. As far as Amatsu Tatara the grandmaster of it Tanemura Sensei has put out some information on it. What he put out, is what he wants out. What is not out, is what he wants to be kept behind closed doors.

If you are Bujinkan, then there is little hope of learning inside teachings of Genbukan. this of course goes without saying.

Regards,

[heretic888]

I actually just found a very interesting site at www.amatsu.com

It gives a very nice generic overview of the history of the Amatsu Tatara under the geneology section. I get the general impression that the Ninja clans are the descendents and/or inheritors of the Buddhist Malays...... very interesting. I wonder what relationship the Hi Chi Bu Ku Goshin Jutsu ryu has to the other ryu of the Bujinkan......

[Makoto-Dojo]

Originally posted by heretic888

I actually just found a very interesting site at www.amatsu.com

It gives a very nice generic overview of the history of the Amatsu Tatara under the geneology section. I get the general impression that the Ninja clans are the descendents and/or inheritors of the Buddhist Malays...... very interesting. I wonder what relationship the Hi Chi Bu Ku Goshin Jutsu ryu has to the other ryu of the Bujinkan......

HI,

even in the Bujinkan these guys are not highly thought of Ask around...

if you really are interested in Amatsu Tatara get Amamtsu tatara Magazine from Tanemura Sensei. What better source than the 58th grandmaster of the tradition. This healing aspect of Amatsu Tatara is a SMALL part of the teachings

The scrolls are 36 in total:
History 3 scrolls
Inspiration system 2
Kuji Kiri Prayer Methods 3
Kuji Kiri and spiritual power3
Fortune telling2
God's Mirror System4
Astrology 4
Castle Construction1

And more Including sword spear taijutsu etc..

Amatsu tatara magazine contains in it more information on Amatsu Tatara than has EVER been available before.

Regards,

[Jay Bell]

even in the Bujinkan these guys are not highly thought of Ask around...

True. Amatsu "Medicine" and the like aren't seen very highly. Hichi Buko Goshinjutsu are some healing aspects of the Amatsu Tatara...however, even those with Menkyo Kaiden in it seemingly have very little knowledge of Hichi Buko or Amatsu Tatara as a whole.

Most of what I've read/talked to people about seems that the Menkyo Kaidensha of Hichi Buko are simply doing whatever wholistic medicine they were doing before the paperwork..