In high school I had friends involved in Shaolin-do, and I often went to visit them at their tests and classes and tournaments and whatnot.

I noticed that in their system, they seemed to use the sai primarily in a stabbing/piercing fashion, whereas in my system, we tend to use it in a bludgeoning fashion, striking with the side. I thought this was a very interesting difference.

How do you sai-users tend to use the weapon?

You might also raise this issue in the Karate (http://www.martialtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=8) forum.

When I studied Isshin-ryu there was a lot of bludgeoning as you put it. Later I learned Gojushiho-no-sai from Shorin-ryu and it had a lot of hooking techniques--really, grappling techniques.

Later I learned Gojushiho-no-sai from Shorin-ryu and it had a lot of hooking techniques--really, grappling techniques.

Yeah, that was one big similarity I noticed between my friends' and my system, lots of hooking and grappling! The bludgeoning vs. piercing thing was the major difference I was aware of.

Has anyone seen any other big differences as well?

In Okinawa-te, though we didn't extensively train with the sai, we trained for bludgeoning, stabbing, and hooking/grappling. Basically, all of the above, using every part of the weapon.

Cthulhu

We first learned to block the samuri sword with them and throw off the blade ...... several different blocks then we learned to snap them while striking and also stab with them..... there were many uses :asian:

Originally posted by Wertle

In high school I had friends involved in Shaolin-do, and I often went to visit them at their tests and classes and tournaments and whatnot.




I know there are some who claim the Sai has roots in China however, when I lived in China and witnessed first hand literally 100's of martial demos, Shaolin and othwerwise, I can safely say I never saw anything that even resembled Sai. Nor did I ever see any demo where Sai or "numchucks" were ever used. As a matter of fact I never saw either weapon the whole time I was in China.
But I digress...........

The sai were the "weapon of choice" so to say of the Okinawan Police force (for lack of a better word).

They were used for mostly traping, blocking, striking and poking, mostly against bladed weapons or stick type weapons when swords were outlawed by one of the Okinawan Kings, (possibly Sho Hashi.....I forget) around 100 years before the Japanese invaded Okinawa.

They were NEVER intended to be used as a farm tool by the way. (nobody mentioned it hear but I have read other posts where it was eluded to)

I'm not sure, but I *think* that the Shaolin-do school was developed by a Chinese master in Indonesia, where prejudice and outlaw against Chinese arts were about, hence the do instead of tao (they also have other Japanese elements, like their belt system). I think these were just to mask the Chinese nature of the art to make it legal, but perhaps they picked up the sai into their curriculum in Indonesia?

maybe its just a result of cross-cultural mixing? in the last 150 years or so there has been so much change. and we need a history buff, but didnt japan invade china quite often?

i never really got to practice with the sai, but i do really like butterfly sword which has a few similarities in its applications, dont you think?

I've wondered before if their usage is similar to the sai, or if they're used in a more knife-like or sword-like manner. I have no familiarity with them beyond pictures in Wing Chun books. In fact I associate them with WC, though I know other arts use them as well.

Originally posted by Cthulhu

In Okinawa-te, though we didn't extensively train with the sai, we trained for bludgeoning, stabbing, and hooking/grappling. Basically, all of the above, using every part of the weapon.

Cthulhu
This also how I was taught to use the Sai
Bob:asian:

Originally posted by arnisador
I've wondered before if their usage is similar to the sai, or if they're used in a more knife-like or sword-like manner.


Similar in a few aspects but generally different, more like a short word (usually used in pairs). It is one of my fav's. the Hung Gar system has some cool forms.

:asian:

Originally posted by Wertle

I'm not sure, but I *think* that the Shaolin-do school was developed by a Chinese master in Indonesia, where prejudice and outlaw against Chinese arts were about, hence the do instead of tao (they also have other Japanese elements, like their belt system).

"Do" is a Japanese word, not Indonesian.


Originally posted by Wertle

I think these were just to mask the Chinese nature of the art to make it legal, but perhaps they picked up the sai into their curriculum in Indonesia?

The Sai is not Indonesian either, so why and how would that have happened?




Originally posted by theneuhauser

maybe its just a result of cross-cultural mixing? in the last 150 years or so there has been so much change. and we need a history buff, but didnt japan invade china quite often?

The Sai is also not a Japanese weapon, it is an Okinawan weapon.
If someone has some historical evidence pertaining to the Sai being a Chinese weapon I would like to see it.
(I don't mean quotes from someone's book saying "it may have come from China", I mean an actually old Chinese kata using the weapon or possibly a photograph)
You would think that if it really was a Chinese weapon some Chinese would still be teaching it. I have yet to see it though.

Originally posted by theneuhauser

i never really got to practice with the sai, but i do really like butterfly sword which has a few similarities in its applications, dont you think?

Not really.

"Do" is a Japanese word, not Indonesian.


Yes, as in they were masking their art as a Japanese one instead of a Chinese one, so that it would be legal. I'm not sure on the time frame of all this, I only know bits and pieces from the people who were in the art. Perhaps it was developed at a time when Okinawan weapon influence had spread about somewhat?

Sorry but that sounds rather absurd.
Do you have any proof of this happening? I have never heard of such a problem in Indonesia..............especially since they have a great dislike for Japanese because of W.W.II.

Also since long ago most Chinese instruction was done in secret or behind closed doors who would have seen them?
I highly doubt your theory to be accurate.

I'll try and see if I can dig up anything. As I said, I only know bits and pieces from the people I know in the art. I'll see if I can find a website or something

(as a side note, I promise, it's not *my* theory ^_^)

Thanks but it's not necessary. I don't believe half the crap I read on the Internet any way.
I have seen their website as well. On their webpage I did find a kata called Sai (could be a Chinese word for something else) it didn't say what it was or anything else.
Weather they tried to disguise themselves as a "Japanese" style or not ( personally I think someone just made that up) is not important, what is important is that the Sai is an Okinawan weapon and not Chinese. So having Sai in a "Shaolin Chinese style" is nonsense

I can remember when the Ninja Turtle Movies came out and they did Sai and "NumbChucks" then many "Ninja" schools claimed they had those weapons in their system. Sad thing is they are Okinawan weapons and have nothing to with Ninjutsu.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

what is important is that the Sai is an Okinawan weapon and not Chinese. So having Sai in a "Shaolin Chinese style" is nonsense

This makes me wonder: The Chinese arts have had a huge influence on the Okinawan arts--much of Okinawan karate is quite literally Southern Chinese kung fu. But are there are any known incidents of the Okinawan arts having an effect on the Chinese arts? Chinese ambassadors had come to the Ryukyus for years--surely someone took something back with him that he had found useful or interesting? A single technique, a weapon, a way of practice...anything?

what karate schools traditionally use the sai? anyone?

Originally posted by theneuhauser

what karate schools traditionally use the sai? anyone?

Isshin, Goju, and Shorin I believe, and of course Ryukyu Kobudo as a separate system.

yes, those are all okinawan arts. now i have a question. its probably been asked before a thousand times, but humor me.


okinawa is part of japan, right? karate was born there, and japanese karate is different from okinawan, right? i see the distinction. why cant i call all of these arts japanese? why the distinction there? they are japanese aren't they?

Originally posted by theneuhauser


okinawa is part of japan, right? karate was born there, and japanese karate is different from okinawan, right? i see the distinction. why cant i call all of these arts japanese? why the distinction there? they are japanese aren't they?

Culturally as well as genetically Okinawans are different than Japanese. They are in fact a different race, in fact some Okinawans I have met are not really too happy to be called "Japanese". .
You wouldn't call the Hula a traditional American dance or even a Native American dances a traditional American dances.
Those things were a part of those cultures before they were "American". Same with Okinawan karate.

Originally posted by arnisador



But are there are any known incidents of the Okinawan arts having an effect on the Chinese arts? Chinese ambassadors had come to the Ryukyus for years--surely someone took something back with him that he had found useful or interesting? A single technique, a weapon, a way of practice...anything?


I have always wondered that myself.
There are 100's things that went from China to Okinawa but I have yet to hear of or see anything going the other way.

Culturally as well as genetically Okinawans are different than Japanese. They are in fact a different race, in fact some Okinawans I have met are not really too happy to be called "Japanese". .

so, was okinawa actually its own nation at one time?

Yes

Originally posted by theneuhauser

so, was okinawa actually its own nation at one time?

See the Karate (http://www.martialtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=8) forum for more on these issues. many have been discussed there already.

Yes, it was it's own nation until the late 1800s, though it had been under strong Japanese "influence" before that, and earlier on had been largely beholden to the Chinese. The Ryukyus has a long history of being a middleman between China and Japan!

I saw a book written by Donn Draeger a long time ago, and there was a picture of a weapon called a tjabang that looked like a sai, with the exception of a lack of sharpened tines... it was more of a blunt pointed instrument.

Just FYI...

Originally posted by arnisador





Yes, it was it's own nation until the late 1800s, though it had been under strong Japanese "influence" before that, and earlier on had been largely beholden to the Chinese. The Ryukyus has a long history of being a middleman between China and Japan!


Okinawa was "officially" made a prefecture around 1890 along with Hokkaido. However, Okinawa still paid it's tributary dues to China until the 1920's.......

I have heard several different concepts on what the sai was used for. One was used for sailing ships to and a way to tie ropes together. Wasn't sure what they were talking about. Second was it was a farming tool to help put a hole in the ground so they can put rice seeds into the hole. I believe the handle is too short for this and would give the user a very bad back ache if used like that. Also heard the sai are used in pairs or sometimes 3 at once. With one tucked into back of the pants.
Bob :D

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I have heard several different concepts on what the sai was used for. One was used for sailing ships to and a way to tie ropes together. Wasn't sure what they were talking about. Second was it was a farming tool to help put a hole in the ground so they can put rice seeds into the hole.



Absolutely not used for those two things.

It was used as a Police weapon.............that is it, nothing else.


Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Also heard the sai are used in pairs or sometimes 3 at once. With one tucked into back of the pants.
Bob :D

This might be true. Matayoshi used to use three sai in such a way while doing kata but I can't say if it was used that way in real life or not.

I've heard the three sai story before also but have never heard of a kata being done with three sai. Where is the third one kept? In the belt? Is one dropped at some point or put back in the belt?

The one tape I have they wear it in the belt behind their back. In this kata they throw one at the foot. Then pull the other sai out.
Bob :D

RSK, You said it was for police. Was it made out of forge metal or did they have types. Such as wooden sai. Also were only the Police allowed to carry them in Okinawa.
Bob:asian:

Originally posted by arnisador

I've heard the three sai story before also but have never heard of a kata being done with three sai. Where is the third one kept? In the belt? Is one dropped at some point or put back in the belt?


Actually the guy juggles all 3 of them while blind folded. ;)

No really, one is kept in the belt in the back while the other 2 are used. At some point in the kata one is thrown into presumably the guys foot and then the 3rd Sai is pulled from the belt.
I have seen the late Matayoshi Shinpo do this kata although it is considered "real" Kobudo I thought it looked a little too "made up". One reason is it was not common to carry 2 Sai let alone 3. Most "Policeman" of that era carried one Sai and sometimes two. The second reason is it would be really, really difficult to stick a Sai in someone's foot because they aren't that sharp and it is easy to move your foot away from something being thrown at you.