View Full Version : Defense Against A Choke From Behind - Scott Flint


Bob Hubbard
01-02-2006, 01:34 AM
Defense Against A Choke From Behind

IT ONLY TAKES ONE SECOND FOR THE ATTACKER TO CAUSE FATAL DAMAGE

Most Common Attack: Out of all possible attacks, you are most likely going to have to defend yourself from an attack from behind. The obvious reason for this is that attackers are opportunistic cowards who rely on the element of surprise. They want it easy. They don't want a victim who will see their attack and be able to confront them.

The most likely attack from behind is a choke. All large predators instinctively attack the neck first. The simple reason for this is that hurting the neck is the quickest way to incapacitate their prey. (This is also true with human predators).

So, if an attack is going to happen, the most common attack that you must prepare for is a choke from behind.

INSTANTLY LETHAL:
A choke from behind is extremely dangerous and must be neutralized in the first few seconds. A strong man with both hands wrapped around your neck can cause terminal damage to you in one second.

It only takes as little as five pounds of pressure per square inch to collapse your windpipe which would stop all airflow to your lungs resulting three minutes later in brain-death Only twenty-five pounds of pressure per square inch directed at the carotid arteries causes instant unconsciousness.

So, a strong squeeze to the throat area can result in you passing out instantly, with a crushed windpipe you would never regain consciousness because no air could reach your lungs. It only takes one second for a crazed attacker to kill you by choking you from behind.

Will the attacker have the strength to Crush your neck?

The answer is a definite yes. An attacker who is willing to choke you from behind is telling you through body-language that he wants you dead. He hates you so much that he wants to kill you. (This of course is the most intense form of hatred).

If you've ever noticed when you become very angry you get a surge of power due to the release of adrenaline throughout your body. Some people report feeling up to six times their normal strength under these conditions.

Your attacker is certainly trying to kill you. With that level of hatred he will be incredibly strong. Strong enough to kill you in one second if you allow it.

How to escape from the rear choke:

Getting free of a choke from behind is relatively easy if you keep the following in mind:

1.) You must act instantly. Remember, if your attacker is determined he can cause lethal damage to you in one second. The only way you can condition your sub-conscious to be able to act quickly enough is by rehearsing the scenario of the attack in your mind many times. You must imagine the attacker viciously grabbing your neck, and you fighting back with all your strength.

2.) Allow the thought of such an attack to make you very angry. Think how upset you get when some jerk points his middle-finger in your direction. That gesture is him saying he doesn't like you. A psycho who wraps his hands around your neck is saying he hates you. He hates you so much that he wants to kill you. He is trying to take away your most prized possession, your life. Let that thought make your blood boil, and have that response every time you think of the attack. By doing these repetitions you will condition your sub-conscious to be able to react quickly to the attack. It will keep you from freezing-up.

3.) Your body is far stronger than even the fiercest attacker's hands. By using the following technique you will be able to survive this horrible, potentially deadly attack. The following is a self-defense technique that has been part of the martial arts for thousands of years. It is scientifically developed using the principles of physics and body-dynamics to break free of a choke in one second. I have had a few of my students use this technique in self-defense with very good results (they lived to tell me about it).

No technique regardless of how well put together it is, works by itself. This technique will only work in conjunction with your willingness to fight for your life. You must strike with all your might and with extreme hatred for what your attacker is trying to do to you.

The Attack: A vicious grab from behind around your neck

http://womencentral.net/defense1.jpg

http://womencentral.net/defense2.jpg

You must immediately do three things at the same time:

1.) Step with your left foot behind your right toward a diagonal (45 degrees) and bend your knees.

2.) Bend your body forward like you are bowing all the way until your upper body is at a right angle to your legs.

3.) Look back toward your attacker over your left shoulder as you fire a quick left chop (using the side of your open left hand) to your opponent's groin. This should cause enough pain to loosen up your attacker's grip. By stepping to an angle you are able to open up many of your attacker's targets. Bending at a 90 degree angle makes it very difficult for your attacker to maintain a strong grip. Your vulnerable neck is replaced by your strong body armor, your shoulders.
http://womencentral.net/defense3.jpg

This is the step that saves your life. It must be done correctly or you'll end up in a worse condition than the original attack.

You must keep your head bowed down as you pivot toward your left turning 180 degrees and now facing your attacker. By keeping your head bowed down as you turn you will be able to break the attacker's grip on your neck going underneath his hands.

No matter how strong he is, he will not be able to keep his grip. Remember, the key to making this work is to keep your head low as you turn. His hands are no match for the powerful muscles of your back and legs. It's also important to keep your knees bent for stability.

At the finish of your turn drive the side of your right hand into the groin. Try to make contact with your hand open using the side of your right index finger at the point where it connects to you hand. This will be a very powerful strike as it's powered by your body turning in behind the strike.

Two heavy consecutive strikes to the groin should be enough to double your attacker over and make him forget about what he was trying to do. You must anticipate that you are fighting an assailant who doesn't feel much pain, so you will need to strike a few more times to really take him out.

Your next step takes advantage of his body reaction to the strikes you delivered to the groin. As his body comes forward from the groin strikes, you will next attack his mid-section.

Step Three

Your attack to the mid-section is delivered with a closed left fist hitting him in his exposed ribs or Solar plexus. This should further cause a loss of control over breathing and even a greater level of shock to your assailant.

http://womencentral.net/defense4.jpg

As you fire the left punch to his body, pull your right hand back in a cocked position on your right side. If you time the delivery of your left punch with the strong return of your right hand you will find an almost doubling of power in your left punch. Remember, to keep your knees bent for greater stability.
http://womencentral.net/defense5.jpg

In step four you finish off your assailant with a head shot.

Since the head is the control center of your attacker, it must be struck with the greatest power and determination.

While keeping your legs flexed drive your right fist in a straight line directly to the attacker's head. Your best bet in a head shot is to hit the nose, temple, or jaw. Try to avoid the forehead and teeth as these can severely damage your fist.

Remember to forcefully return your left and at the same time you fire your right.

You can greatly increase your striking power by exhaling as you make contact with his head.
http://womencentral.net/defense6.jpg

Step five is designed to get you away from the threat while giving you the chance to attack again if needed.

After firing your right punch to the head, simply step back with your right foot turning your left side to the assailant. Keep your legs flexed a little wider than shoulder width. Keep both hands between you and the assailant.

If he looks like he can still get up and attack, beat him to it by striking before he gets to his feet. A quick right kick to his head will prove to be very effective.

When you are sure he is going to stay down, get out of there. Studies show that you are more likely to be attacked by a small group than you are a single attacker. If you stay in the area you may soon find his comrades coming in for their attack. Always assume the worst and get out of there as soon as you can.

If you practice this simple technique with the correct mind-set you may find one day that it will save your life. I know it has already saved two of my students.

To learn other great Self-Defense Techniques get your copy of Waking The Tiger Within.

Best Wishes,
Scott Flint, Senior Chief Instructor
West-Wind Self-Defense Schools
Berkeley, California (510) 841-1427

From the book Waking The Tiger Within a 136 page comprehensive self defense book available online for only $9.95 at http://selfdefensemanual0.tripod.com (http://selfdefensemanual0.tripod.com/)

shesulsa
01-02-2006, 03:25 AM
Are these articles open to feedback and/or criticism?

AdrenalineJunky
01-02-2006, 03:29 AM
Are these articles open to feedback and/or criticism?

Seriously, cause I'm ready. :asian:

AdrenalineJunky
01-02-2006, 03:30 AM
Best Wishes,
Scott Flint, Senior Chief Instructor
West-Wind Self-Defense Schools
Berkeley, California (510) 841-1427


I might have to go see what he's talking about in real-time.

green meanie
01-02-2006, 08:20 AM
I might have to go see what he's talking about in real-time.

Keep us posted. :)

Bob Hubbard
01-02-2006, 11:51 AM
Are these articles open to feedback and/or criticism?
Yes.

shesulsa
01-02-2006, 12:04 PM
Yes.

Good.

First of all, the choke shown is no where near the kind of choke a man that size would use on a girl that size, so the technique is irrelavent and moot as well as ineffective. Large hands around a neck that small would be no match. Bending forward as mentioned in the article will only serve to enhance the choke, even if turning out.

No mention is made on arm-based chokes nor the two types of chokes which are the airway attack and the LVR (blood choke). There are some simple ways to alleviate an airway attack, simply by turning the head such that the throat is actually facing the crook of the elbow. The LVR is much more difficult because you really only need one side of the neck to be compressed to restrict the blood flow to the brain.

I wonder if anyone else gleans from the photos shown that the implication is of an adult man attempting abduction or attack on a younger girl. This photo does not depict a real-life attack, IMO.

green meanie
01-02-2006, 01:24 PM
First of all, the choke shown is no where near the kind of choke a man that size would use on a girl that size, so the technique is irrelavent and moot as well as ineffective. This photo does not depict a real-life attack, IMO.

Agreed. Your thoughts mirrored my own. I don't believe the attack is even remotely realistic, making the prescribed defense a moot point.

BlackCatBonz
01-02-2006, 01:25 PM
if someone choked me like that, i would probably turn around and laugh at them before i started to kick their a$$.

the one surefire method for defending against a choke is situational awareness.

if i was to attack with a choke from behind (and really, anyone who has watched wrestling can do a cheesy, yet effective, version of it) it would probably be a rear naked choke....or something like it.
i do have to disagree with shesulsa saying that you only need to turn your head towards the elbow so that the airway is unblocked by the crook of the elbow. this is the perfect position for a quick easy knockout.

shesulsa
01-02-2006, 01:31 PM
i do have to disagree with shesulsa saying that you only need to turn your head towards the elbow so that the airway is unblocked by the crook of the elbow. this is the perfect position for a quick easy knockout.
I did not say you only need to turn your head, I said turning your head (and hence, neck/throat) towards the crook of the elbow will alleviate the attack on the throat, i.e. the pressure on the throat itself. This is by no means a complete technique, but the first step in a technique.

Bigshadow
01-03-2006, 11:37 AM
Good.

First of all, the choke shown is no where near the kind of choke a man that size would use on a girl that size, so the technique is irrelavent and moot as well as ineffective.

I wonder if anyone else gleans from the photos shown that the implication is of an adult man attempting abduction or attack on a younger girl. This photo does not depict a real-life attack, IMO.
Great reply! I immediately noticed that the choke scenario is highly unrealistic. If someone was going to REALLY choke someone and actually knew how to do it, the woman would not be standing up straight, rather her shoulders would be behind her hips (leaning backwards) and off balance.

IMHO, very unrealistic, oh and hardly vicious LOL

Bigshadow
01-03-2006, 11:42 AM
i do have to disagree with shesulsa saying that you only need to turn your head towards the elbow so that the airway is unblocked by the crook of the elbow. this is the perfect position for a quick easy knockout.

I like to think of it as putting the chin in the pocket of the elbow.

shesulsa
01-03-2006, 11:50 AM
I like to think of it as putting the chin in the pocket of the elbow.
Good wording, yes.

green meanie
01-03-2006, 01:05 PM
I did not say you only need to turn your head, I said turning your head (and hence, neck/throat) towards the crook of the elbow will alleviate the attack on the throat, i.e. the pressure on the throat itself. This is by no means a complete technique, but the first step in a technique.

Agreed. It'll still put you to sleep if you stay here too long, but getting the blade of the forearm off your trachea is definately the first step, or this fight's gonna be over in a hurry.

BlackCatBonz
01-03-2006, 01:19 PM
the problem with having your throat in the crook of the elbow is that it places the carotid arteries in the prime position for getting crimped.
never turn your neck toward the elbow.......that is like walking into oncoming traffic.
but to each his own......ive seen it taught plenty of times by people that have never been choked for real.

Bigshadow
01-03-2006, 02:13 PM
the problem with having your throat in the crook of the elbow is that it places the carotid arteries in the prime position for getting crimped.
never turn your neck toward the elbow.......
If you don't there is a chance your air gets cut off, if you do there is chance your blood flow will be cut off, pick your poison. But I can tell you that when someone's air gets cut off, they will panic unless they have had enough training where they really get choked. I remember doing these things for the first time and all I can say is it is un-nerving to have the air cut off. I still don't like it. :(

All that said, what we are talking about is nothing more than a snapshot out of a movement. I don't think anyone is advocating staying there with the chin in the elbow or not. Either way you done for if you don't move.

shesulsa
01-03-2006, 06:02 PM
Either one is not the best, but you have more air if you're being blood-choked. A crushed trachea or blood flow to the brain. You pick.

green meanie
01-03-2006, 08:34 PM
Either one is not the best, but you have more air if you're being blood-choked. A crushed trachea or blood flow to the brain. You pick.

A loss of blood flow isn't pleasant but can be temporary if you have some decent rear choke counters in your arsenal.

A crushed trachea is fatal and final.

Take it for what it's worth.

green meanie
01-03-2006, 09:22 PM
Well, crap. I know it doesn't sound like it but I'm in agreement with shesulsa and Bigshadow on this one. I just messed that post up a bit. :idunno:

Martial Tucker
01-03-2006, 10:12 PM
Well, everyone else is covering the realities of escaping from a choke hold pretty well, so I thought I'd go on to suggest that in the case presented with the people illustrated, the tactics and technique employed by the girl after she escapes from the choke are highly questionable IMO.

Even if you assume that she somehow escapes from the choke and delivers the ridge-hand to the groin, her tactical decision to stand there and re-engage a much larger/stronger attacker is highly risky. The groin strikes have temporarily slowed the attacker. At this point she should run away screaming. To stand there in a wide horse stance and start punching a physically superior attacker is something out of the comic books.

Then, she has him down on the ground and she assumes a "karate pose", which does nothing but allows the attacker to get back up. In a life-or-death situation, if you get your attacker down, you either FINISH him, or run like hell, whichever is more suitable for your skills. That kid should be a block away at this point......

swiftpete
01-03-2006, 10:28 PM
Yeah looking at the pics it'd be like an 8ft bloke attacking me. I wouldn't hang around!
Looking at the pics again, if she had grabbed his left hand with herright as she turned and caried on in a downwards arc motion while stepping back, then she could probably have made him overbalance and land on his back. Then a quick smash to the face then leg it. mind you that's just what the pics are saying to me. It's hard to actually put into words exactly what i mean, much easier to show in the flesh but there you go!

shesulsa
01-04-2006, 01:55 AM
Oh, I gotta agree. This girl needs to cut and RUN. The ONLY reason a young girl like that should be striking a man that size is if he still has hands on her, IMHO.

Andrew Green
01-04-2006, 02:08 AM
I was gonna be nice cause he took the time to do it which I appreciate... but wow... that's everything that is wrong with a lot of self-defense schools.

The attack is extremely unrealistic, there is no way his arms would end up twisted around like that even if by some chance she managed that escape, and given the size difference she is not going to knock him down, especially not with two punches.

green meanie
01-04-2006, 06:49 AM
I was gonna be nice cause he took the time to do it which I appreciate...

Same here. I was reluctant to pick apart the rest of the technique and tried to just focus on how unrealistic the attack was.

arnisador
01-04-2006, 12:21 PM
I agree that's it's an uncommon attack from this position, as opposed to wrapping an arm around the neck. But, I also think that a strangle (blood choke) is uncommon from an untrained attacker. They tend to go for the airway.

Stepping back runs a risk of stepping into a knee strike; a technique similar to this attack is to grab both shoulders and jerk back while launching a knee to the lower spine or a kick to the back of the knee. But, it's tough being attacked from behind and so I don't necessarily criticize the technique on that basis.

I might have tried to drop my chin, step forward to avoid the possible knee strike (if that was possible, and didn't create too much distress on my throat--it would depend on his momentum) and kick back to the shin with my heel as a distraction while I go for a finger(s). That would be my main thing--break a few fingers, then step away from him (maintaining control) before finishing.

It's scarier to be grabbed from behind by one hand, since then the other is likely coming at you as a punch or stab...

arnisador
01-04-2006, 12:23 PM
I was gonna be nice cause he took the time to do it which I appreciate...

I certainly appreciate those who contribute like this. We all know that if we could feel the instructor doing it then we'd probably agree that it's effective for him/her.

I do think the attack is unlikely--is this an assassination attempt on a 10 year old?--but I see no problem with discussing less common attacks. I have no doubt that it's happened to someone.

Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers
01-15-2006, 02:55 PM
Defense Against A Choke From Behind

IT ONLY TAKES ONE SECOND FOR THE ATTACKER TO CAUSE FATAL DAMAGE

Most Common Attack:Out of all possible attacks, you are most likely going to have to defend yourself from an attack from behind.

An attacker who is willing to choke you from behind is telling you through body-language that he wants you dead. He hates you so much that he wants to kill you. (This of course is the most intense form of hatred).


Hate to stir up trouble, but I'd have to say False, False, and False.

ONE SECOND TO CAUSE FATAL DAMAGE
Does anyone know of ONE SINGLE CASE of anyone ever being killed by a choke hold? Neck break, yes, but all the pounds-per-inch-blah-blah-blah is theoretical under exact conditions, if at all.

In fact, I'd like to know where they even got such numbers. Hey, Joe, stand still. "We're going to place six pounds of pressure on your clavicle to see if it breaks. You wont let us? Okay, put the clavicle down for breaking at six pounds." (Yes, that is a specific measurement quoted by some martial artists.)

But in the end, the windpipe is most often at the soft crook of the arm with the pressure distributed across the neck overall, which means a small amount of the force is actually on the artery. Anyone who can STOP the blood flow instead of slow it is most likely a cyborg from the future or the governor of California.

That's why it's called a SLEEPER HOLD, which often takes as much as two minutes or more (a LONG time in a fight) to pass out, not "a second".

Most Common Attack:
And the most common attack is from behind? I would think attacks occur more often in confrontations, in contrast to being mugged while walking backwards into a dark alley. Most "attacks" start out as pushing and shoving matches, escalating into thrown punches or a tackle, grabbing the person's collar, etc. Again, anyone here ever been put into a chokehold from behind except for already being on the bad end of a fight? Anyone get into a fight and then turn your back on someone you thought was going to kill you?

Most likely you get chokeheld like that by a friend joking around ... which brings me to the next point.

An attacker who is willing to choke you from behind is telling you through body-language that he wants you dead.
Again, there's a reason it's called a SLEEPER HOLD. It is used by people to CONTROL a person, or on rare occasion, make them lose consciousness. That is the opposite body language of someone trying to kill you out of hatred.

Natural body language for extreme hatred in a fight means being out of control and active aggression, not holding someone in place. The only exception I can think of might be choking someone with your hands so you can see their face.

But striking blows over and over, kicking them when you are down -- those are things that people do when under extreme stress. Watch any fight where people are really peaved into a lather. Most martial techniques go out the door, and the only time you see a "hold" on someone is so they can use the other had to pound them with impunity.

Conclusion?

This is an example of perhaps a good martial artist / school that nonetheless is basing some of its combat ideas in gross misconceptions. And though some techniques might work, many will not with such false premises. And it sets students up for failure -- or worse in the real world. I would say it's always a good thing for all of us to regularly look at and question the presumptions behind our practice.

arnisador
01-15-2006, 05:39 PM
ONE SECOND TO CAUSE FATAL DAMAGE
Does anyone know of ONE SINGLE CASE of anyone ever being killed by a choke hold?

Yes, it happens often enough that police officers have had to modify how they do it to avoid deaths and the resulting lawsuits. For example, see:
http://www.ebji.org/akeem/choke.html
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2000/11/27/loc_grand_jury_to_get.html
http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles1/nij/176330-1.pdf#search='police%20death%20choke'

This is why I think it's so important for a self-defense instructor to read the newspaper--then one has a realistic idea of what types of attacks occur, and what the effects of techniques are. A choke hold can be dangerous!

Hope this helps!

shesulsa
01-15-2006, 05:51 PM
Sifu Ken, I'd also like to point out that if restricting the blood flow to the brain took so long to accomplish, it would not have been brought back into law enforcement as a viable form of less-than-lethal force / deadly force. It takes seconds to lose enough blood flow to the brain to bring about unconsciousness.

An attack from the rear is more likely to be either an abduction attempt or an attack on one's life. You don't have to cut off the air passage to kill someone with a choke hold. Brain damage can be enough.

Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers
01-16-2006, 01:55 AM
Yes, it happens often enough that police officers have had to modify how they do it to avoid deaths and the resulting lawsuits. For example, see:
http://www.ebji.org/akeem/choke.html
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2000/11/27/loc_grand_jury_to_get.html
http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles1/nij/176330-1.pdf#search='police%20death%20choke'

This is why I think it's so important for a self-defense instructor to read the newspaper--then one has a realistic idea of what types of attacks occur, and what the effects of techniques are. A choke hold can be dangerous!

Hope this helps!

It may help more to read the articles in detail before suggesting them. :^P

The first supports my claim there were no deaths by the technique itself in all the various studies quoted over the period of time of those studies.

The death examples as far as I read (I got through several pages worth) all involved the use of a baton, flashlight, etc... or involved drug use where the "victim" was already physiologically stressed, at least one specifically noting inhalants.

Those are not anything in line with typical self-defense situations, and were all (theoretically) a matter of police control, not murderous rage as the origianl article suggests. On all accounts, the above are very different from what we are talking about.*

The second article does not establish any particular cause of the fatal damage. And yes, I keep up on the news. Which means I have some handle on the various dangers of police apprehension, AND the physiology involved.

It is my understanding that most deaths from asphyxiation in police custody are caused by a combination of being handcuffed behind the back (which causes pulmonary stress) AND chemical spray (tear gas, mace). Less common is the baton choke, and other typical injuries occur from police flashlights, which is why many authorities have specific construction-material requirements for such equipment. But is there an example of asphyxiation by choke hold without the use of a weapon as the solitary cause of death? Maybe buried somehwere in that link there was, and maybe there is a case SOMEWHERE, but why cry "the sky is falling" about something the equivalent of getting hit by lightning?

So my position on the choke hold stands. Dangerous? Maybe in some circumastances, but even "dangerous" does not mean life-threatening.

But I'm going against the grain here.

Any conclusion that something is not a life-threatening danger is hard to swallow by us self-defense teacher types. We want to be macho examples of survivalism to those around us. We want to believe what we sell is absolutely vital for everyone to learn as a matter of life and death, because it's easier to market fear around every corner than just common sense when you might (or might not) ever need it.


* Ironically, my response above was from reading the article after the first few images showed up blank. I assumed it was an arm choke hold instead of a finger grip. Which of course has got to be the easiest thing to squirm out of even if you have no training. You'd have to freeze from panic for it to not be thwarted. And even if you did, the images show a technique that would require huge (and unusually strong) hands around a small neck to pose any real immediate threat. If they knew exactly where to put their fingers on the other hand ...

Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers
01-16-2006, 02:06 AM
Sifu Ken, I'd also like to point out that if restricting the blood flow to the brain took so long to accomplish, it would not have been brought back into law enforcement as a viable form of less-than-lethal force / deadly force. It takes seconds to lose enough blood flow to the brain to bring about unconsciousness.

An attack from the rear is more likely to be either an abduction attempt or an attack on one's life. You don't have to cut off the air passage to kill someone with a choke hold. Brain damage can be enough.

But you're agreeing with me on both accounts ...

The police use it -- regardless of the how long difference -- as a control technique, not as a mens to endanger someone's life.

And abductions and attempts on one's life are far less common than other confrontaions where you would use self-defense. Not that it's worth dismissing, but the original article makes it sound like it's LIKELY, when it is not.

Lastly, you can't talk about brain damage unless the person is held in position long after they go night-night. It takes longer than you think.

celtic_crippler
01-16-2006, 12:20 PM
In regards to the attack being unrealistic...why? Do you have a crystal ball? How can anyone be 100% positive of how someone will attack them? I'm neither supporting nor condeming the technique, but this seems to be an ongoing reason for criticising the technique from most. How do you know?

Granted, I think it more likely that you would be choked with the forearm, but it depends on different variables (height of attacker, height of victim, the environment, etc, etc, and so forth). The liklihood of a type of attack should be considered, but just because one attack is less likely than another is no reason not to prepare for it.

Being prepared is why most study MA for self defense. We may practice 50 techniques geared towards defending a right punch so that we can be prepared for right punches delivered by different people. You never know who your opponent will be or what they will try. So, do you not agree that being prepared for any type of attack is wise?

Just something I thought worth consideration. IMHO- =)

arnisador
01-16-2006, 01:26 PM
It may help more to read the articles in detail

Agreed! You said: "Does anyone know of ONE SINGLE CASE of anyone ever being killed by a choke hold?" The answer is: Yes, I do! The links provide some starting points for your own research. For example:


The decedent, who was a white male age 21, 52.3 kg, height 185.4 cm, was reported to have taken lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) four days before his death. The arresting officer applied "restraint" on the man's neck. The decedent was transported to the police station in a convulsive state, then collapsed and did not respond to stimuli.

The reported cause of death was not only mechanical asphyxia but also by compression of the vascular circulation to the brain.


As you point out, this person was also on drugs at the time. But, the cause of death was the chokehold. In many of the cases reported the person was on drugs/drunk. In others he was handcuffed. In others he had a pre-existing condition, such as sickle cell anemia or merntal illness. But...if you're attacked, an attacker on drugs/using alcohol is not an unlikely occurrence. Nor is an opponent with some medical condition.

Here's a cleaner example:


The decedent, a black male, age 39, 58.6 kg, height 170.2 cm, had a family dispute, then turned on the officer on the scene, and the subject was eventually subdued by a "regular choke hold." When he became unconscious, he was cuffed and carried outside; he was still unconscious as the rescue ambulance arrived. He was pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital.

The reported cause of death was asphyxia as a result of neck compression during restraining procedure.


A 'regular choke hold' on someone not reported to be on drugs, drinking, or to have been handcuffed or to be suffering from a chronic condition. Just the "one single case" you asked for, no?

Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers
01-16-2006, 04:17 PM
Yes, you're correct ... Thanks.

The second one quoted is a somewhat clear incident, and the second less clear as to what was used if anything. And I will assume a "regular choke hold" may be the technique we are talking about, though it might not.

My challenge was more hyberbole -- my point was rarity.

If they have to cite individual cases, some of which might qualify, instead of a percentage of mecical complications and death to the overall use of the technique, we would have a better idea.

My assertion is still that those are freak ACCIDENTS, and not an expectable outcome. A choke hold in the average fight is still not ordinarily a life-and-death struggle -- and isn't someone who wants you dead, especially if they sneak up from behind out of nowhere, likely to use a weapon? Who seriously thinks "okay, there's my target ... I think I'll use a sleeper hold."

That's why I issued my challenge of "ONE SINGLE CASE" -- not that I didn't think there could be one somewhere (there's a case for almost anything), but that most people cannot recall any such case without digging in research articles.

arnisador
01-16-2006, 05:13 PM
I think I largely agree with you--it isn't a likely outcome, and the vast majority of incidents have occurred in the context of use of drugs, pepper spray, handcuffs, etc., or in cases where there was a pre-existing medical condition. (Still, it's worth considering that your opponent may well be on drugs, in which case the concern arises.) But I do think the fact that LEOs have altered their style of, and rules for, applying chokeholds, does show that there's enough of a concern that a regular chokehold would be dangerous (or would look bad in court if there was a negative outcome). Certainly, I have had this concern explained to me in seminars by people who train LEOs.

But I believe that in the vast majority of cases this will be a safe and humane tactic.

ehsen
04-04-2007, 06:40 PM
Instead of writing an article that would be better if he post a video here.

kempo-vjj
04-05-2007, 03:28 PM
My instructor put one of the students into a triangle choke, when he clamped down, we counted how long it took to tap. He barely made it to 3 seconds and he barely tapped becus he said it started to turn black. This guy was a no cream puff. I have been put into a choke, and what I did, kinda made it up, but did a sacrifice roll out. Yes he had my back in a typical bjj hold, but once we hit he loosened, and I rolled myself into guard position. Sometimes you have to from the frying pan to the fire to get off the stove.