Benefits of associations?

[Rob_Broad]

When dealing with associations who should benefit?

[jfarnsworth]

There should be a head(s) of a governing association. This will set a specific standard of kenpo from whoever is involved in that particular association. There would be no questions about this guys is such and such a rank. Or even better yet I know more than so & so and he's higher than me. An association body will stop all of the b.s. as well as the "good 'ole boy" stuff. If an individual passing the requirements for a test in front of x amount of people on the board then by all means they can wear that rank.
Jason Farnsworth

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

There should be a head(s) of a governing association. This will set a specific standard of kenpo from whoever is involved in that particular association. There would be no questions about this guys is such and such a rank. Or even better yet I know more than so & so and he's higher than me. An association body will stop all of the b.s. as well as the "good 'ole boy" stuff. If an individual passing the requirements for a test in front of x amount of people on the board then by all means they can wear that rank.
Jason Farnsworth

But who watches the watchers???

Dan

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Sigung86



But who watches the watchers???

Dan

Exactly! A lot of guys can bully or run a "Board Decision" based on who they are or what they have done... Just because it was by majority vote does not mean its what should have been done. People will be people I guess.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth

There should be a head(s) of a governing association. This will set a specific standard of kenpo from whoever is involved in that particular association. There would be no questions about this guys is such and such a rank. Or even better yet I know more than so & so and he's higher than me. An association body will stop all of the b.s. as well as the "good 'ole boy" stuff. If an individual passing the requirements for a test in front of x amount of people on the board then by all means they can wear that rank.
Jason Farnsworth

Well, that's how we do it in our association. We like to get together outside the studio for parties and what not and it's never mattered who eats first, rank doesn't play into that off the mats. We know we have one Chief Instructor that we get our rank from and alot of our knowledge, though he puts us on the path of self-discovery most of the time with his unending patience for our ignorance. We all call each other by our first names, except on the mats, when it's Yessir and Nossir, and get along marvleously. I'd say we have one of the most harmonious associations I've been in. I would say our association benefits both the head of the association and it's members.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo



Well, that's how we do it in our association. We like to get together outside the studio for parties and what not and it's never mattered who eats first, rank doesn't play into that off the mats. We know we have one Chief Instructor that we get our rank from and alot of our knowledge, though he puts us on the path of self-discovery most of the time with his unending patience for our ignorance. We all call each other by our first names, except on the mats, when it's Yessir and Nossir, and get along marvleously. I'd say we have one of the most harmonious associations I've been in. I would say our association benefits both the head of the association and it's members.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


Clyde,
That's the way it should be. At least through my eyes.
Jason Farnsworth

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo



Well, that's how we do it in our association. We like to get together outside the studio for parties and what not and it's never mattered who eats first, rank doesn't play into that off the mats. We know we have one Chief Instructor that we get our rank from and alot of our knowledge, though he puts us on the path of self-discovery most of the time with his unending patience for our ignorance. We all call each other by our first names, except on the mats, when it's Yessir and Nossir, and get along marvleously. I'd say we have one of the most harmonious associations I've been in. I would say our association benefits both the head of the association and it's members.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

I like what Clyde has to say about his organization! I can't say I've been treated wrong in mine. So far, so good!:asian:

[Seig]

I think it should be a symbiotic relationship, otherwise one of the two is simply a parasite.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Sigung86
But who watches the watchers???


or the Right Reverend Bob!

:rofl:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
When dealing with associations who should benefit?

Both must benefit!.... if it is to be successful. That's why Mr. Parker was a consultant most of the time. LOL.... he was constantly asked to help with non-kenpo issues that popped up in the studios all the time, many called him to ask for his advice. Of course there was the instructional part of the Art as well, and the bond between the instructor and student to assist each other when needed. I was always there from Arizona, (with and Army of students) at the Long Beach Internationals to help Mr. Parker with anything he needed me to do (local instructors seemed to just show up to show off thier new belt stripes) .... from taping the floors, to judge to help with trophies to competition! We always helped him, as well as send in all our association dues and test fees to show him support for the knowledge he released to us. It was a great relationship to say the least.

:asian:

[Ronin]

Taping the floor for the internationals....oh man I remember those days. I've always felt the need to call any high ranking kenpoist as Sir or Mr. The mild little traditions like waiting for the head instructor to eat before I do never bothered me at all. I never in my experience thought any "old school kenpo seniors" abused or felt "Godlike" doing things that way. They've always felt humbled in away. As for the first name calling I honestly can say in the 20 years I've been with Mr. Conatser I never once called him Dennis or refered to Mr. Parker as Ed. Man the brutal beating I would endur would be too much! I'ts just my form of respect to the kenpo elders. I can imagine the only time I would call someone by their first name is if we were "kenpo brothers" brought up in the ranks together. Even then during class or any other kenpo function they'd be called Mr. or Mrs. Some people in my opinion, could mistake the friendliness of this computer lifestyle, where many of us call each other by our first names and confuse it and possibly ignore the respect aspect. I hope they don't go up to Mr. Kelly or Mr. Labounty and call them Tom or Steve just cause they talk to them on a computer. I think respect and traditon is important. Rules should be followed. Perhaps thats why there are so many "independant kenpoists " out there because they dont like certain rules. They should show respect towards the elders for passing onto them the kenpo knowledge they have. To me I would gladly wait for Mr. Conatser or Mr. Labounty to eat before I just to show respect and thanks for teaching me the art and allowing me to eat with them as well. Again just my humble ramblings.

[RCastillo]

I tried to eat first before Mr. Conatser, I caught a fork though my hand. :eek:

[Rob_Broad]

Alright what benefits should an association have for its members and what should the members be doing for the association other than paying dues. I have seen too many associations that want your money, have a bunch of rules that impose their rules and give nothingin return?

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Alright what benefits should an association have for its members and what should the members be doing for the association other than paying dues. I have seen too many associations that want your money, have a bunch of rules that impose their rules and give nothingin return?

Probably most important, to make sure they are accessible to all their members! Everybody counts, from the lowest on up!:asian:

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo



Well, that's how we do it in our association. We like to get together outside the studio for parties and what not and it's never mattered who eats first, rank doesn't play into that off the mats. We know we have one Chief Instructor that we get our rank from and alot of our knowledge, though he puts us on the path of self-discovery most of the time with his unending patience for our ignorance. We all call each other by our first names, except on the mats, when it's Yessir and Nossir, and get along marvleously. I'd say we have one of the most harmonious associations I've been in. I would say our association benefits both the head of the association and it's members.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


I agree. I think on the matt it yould be yes sir, no sir. Off the matt you can respect what that person wishes to be addressed as....I met Clyde called him Mr. O'Bryant he said NO call me Clyde, thats not disrespectful he asked me to adress him that way. Sometimes people look at that from the outside and see it as disrespect when in fact its the exact opposite.
my grandpa used to slap me around if i did not call an elder or senior sir or mister and i still do it untill told otherwise even people i encounter on the streets....so calling clyde, clyde is not disrespectful...im respecting his wishes. Respect should extent off the matt, I am sure it is done in different ways, Everyone has different ideas of how it is done.
i never have understood the waiting to eat, i have done it when I have had to respecting others wishes, and to me I have never understood how it defines or exudes respect, If my kids eat before me they are not disrespecting me as the head of the house, they where hungry and I would not make them wait for me honestly to me that is selfishness towards my children not a sign of respect.
When I eat with my friends or my family there are 2 kinds of eaters...the quick and the dead! I honestly dont think it should be any other way Im just happy my family can sit down at the table together with no tv as a family when my friends eat over its the same way to me thats respect...for that I am thankful

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo



Well, that's how we do it in our association. We like to get together outside the studio for parties and what not and it's never mattered who eats first, rank doesn't play into that off the mats. We know we have one Chief Instructor that we get our rank from and alot of our knowledge, though he puts us on the path of self-discovery most of the time with his unending patience for our ignorance. We all call each other by our first names, except on the mats, when it's Yessir and Nossir, and get along marvleously. I'd say we have one of the most harmonious associations I've been in. I would say our association benefits both the head of the association and it's members.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


I totally agree with Clyde. And if both sides give totally to each other then nothing but great things can come out of that relationship. On the mat it should be yes sir and no sir, but when out in the real world and enjoying life respect can still be shown whether calling someone by their first name or not, especially if they want you to call them by their first name. I show my friends respect all the time, and still call them by their first name. Just because someone has more knowledge about a subject than i do doesn't make them a better person than me, or above me in any way. They just have something that I can learn from them.
When it comes down to it we all live and die the same way.....
God made MAN....Smith and Wesson made them EQUAL!

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



or the Right Reverend Bob!

:rofl:

Gimmeee Slaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

The Right Reverend BoB ... Using Saintly Uncle Dan's compuker!

[Goldendragon7]

The different protocol structures are left up entirely to the head of any given organization. Many of these have been passed down historically, yet others are new. What is required for one organization is not necessarily the same for another. When in Rome.........


Originally posted by brianhunter
I think on or off the matt it yould be yes sir, no sir.


And if that is what your studio or organization requires that is great, I'll remember that if I visit.




Sometimes when addressing some people "off" the matt as "Mr." it looks from the outside to those that see it as disrespect when in fact its the exact opposite.


I would disagree.......... but if the person does not like it they should or will tell you, and then you can respect their wishes.



Respect should extend off the matt, I am sure it is done in different ways, Everyone has different ideas of how it is done.


I agree, so you need to respect the persons wishes just as you do for the type of person above.



I never have understood the waiting to eat thing, I have done it when I have had to respecting others wishes, and to me I have never understood how it defines or exudes respect.


The root to this custom goes back to Mr. LaBounty and his clan. In olden times (Colonial America) and in some very respectful family circles (LaBounty features members of his group as a family) the group waits for the Father to come in from the fields and eat dinner (that the wife and children have prepared). prayer is given and then everyone eats after the head of the household. It is a custom he likes and has adopted for his group. Through camps and other events "outsiders" or guests have seen and some criticize this event. Well, again, as I follow your rules in your house it is "polite" to follow his rules when in his house........ No one expects you to adopt these customs unless you fall under LaBounty or any of his students (Tom Kelly)customs. I hope that explains well enough.




If my kids eat before me they are not disrespecting me as the head of the house, they where hungry and I would not make them wait for me honestly to me that is selfishness towards my children not a sign of respect.

When I eat with my friends or my family there are 2 kinds of eaters...the quick and the dead! I honestly don't think it should be any other way I'm just happy my family can sit down at the table together with no TV as a family when my friends eat over its the same way to me that's respect...for that I am thankful


And in today's culture you are not alone....... many, many feel the same way...... I don't do this at my house either on a daily basis, but Please, thank you , and other manners are stressed. Each has a right to teach, train and expose their personal families the way they see fit...... this is still America.

:asian:

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

The different protocol structures are left up entirely to the head of any given organization. Many of these have been passed down historically, yet others are new. What is required for one organization is not necessarily the same for another. When in Rome.........



And in today's culture you are not alone....... many, many feel the same way...... I don't do this at my house either on a daily basis, but Please, thank you , and other manners are stressed. Each has a right to teach, train and expose their personal families the way they see fit...... this is still America.

:asian:

Just out of curiosity I have read Mr. Parker used to really like chinese and eating (his culture i guess) did he have any eating customs or rules you guys who where close to him used to have to follow? as too the sir thing I know Sibok (Mr. Kelly) has told a couple of stories about guys saying "Hey Ed" and the likes and he used to break something off in them for it

[jeffkyle]

The root to this custom goes back to Mr. LaBounty and his clan. In olden times (Colonial America) and in some very respectful family circles (LaBounty features members of his group as a family) the group waits for the Father to come in from the fields and eat dinner (that the wife and children have prepared). prayer is given and then everyone eats after the head of the household. It is a custom he likes and has adopted for his group. Through camps and other events "outsiders" or guests have seen and some criticize this event. Well, again, as I follow your rules in your house it is "polite" to follow his rules when in his house........ No one expects you to adopt these customs unless you fall under LaBounty or any of his students (Tom Kelly)customs. I hope that explains well enough.


That is the first time i have heard the explanation of WHY that is done. It sure is nice to hear the WHY every now and then.

[kenpo3631]

I call my instructor Mr. Wedlake, but my dad calls him Lee. No biggy. I would feel wierd calling he Lee anyway, it's a respect thing. Even if he gave me permission I still would call him Mister.

I too was raised that when you are home the "bread winner" started his meal first. Then so on , and so forth. Also when in the presence of others, the host would always eat first.

Heck, I follow that custom and I'm a mere lad of 30!....:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

I call my instructor Mr. Wedlake, but my dad calls him Lee. No biggy. I would feel wierd calling he Lee anyway, it's a respect thing. Even if he gave me permission I still would call him Mister.

I too was raised that when you are home the "bread winner" started his meal first. Then so on , and so forth. Also when in the presence of others, the host would always eat first.

Heck, I follow that custom and I'm a mere lad of 30!....:asian:

Ditto........ We are together on this one......:)

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by brianhunter
Did Mr. Parker have any eating customs or rules you guys who where close to him used to have to follow?

Hee hee........ yes eat or starve........ No seriously, I never heard any official customs but always waited for him and followed common manners. When I was in Pasadena we always loved to go to Genghis Khans a Korean buffet..... we would race...... lol sadly last year when I went to go back it had changed hands. Many great memories there.



Originally posted by brianhunter
As too the sir thing I know Sibok (Mr. Kelly) has told a couple of stories about guys saying "Hey Ed" and the likes and he used to break something off in them for it


Yes, he is very traditional (and has a deep love and respect for Mr. Parker) and so are a lot of other of Mr. Parkers close circle. They will be offended if you call him Ed. This is normal for any leader all over the world, we are no different. I wouldn't think of going to England and upon being introduced to Margaret Thatcher say "Hi Margi".... I would probably be hauled off ..... if not by the Bobbies....... the people!! lol

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
That is the first time i have heard the explanation of WHY that is done. It sure is nice to hear the WHY every now and then.


Many never ask first just criticize. Even if you don't agree, it is nice to understand the why's of what it is that we do...... I agree with you....... I enjoy explaining the why's. Glad to be of help.

:asian:

[kenpochip]

I am not sure what people mean when they ask who should benefit. I understand stand how the individual member would benefit, but what kind of benefit are we talking about for the organization itself (as a separate entity)? The way I look at it, the organization is the members + the leaders. Are we talking about the leaders of the organization making money, or benefitting in some other (more abstract) way?


KenpoChip

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by kenpochip
I am not sure what people mean when they ask who should benefit.


I believe that both the members and the head of the Organization should benefit.


Originally posted by kenpochip
I understand stand how the individual member would benefit..


Some member benefits in my opinion are.......
A traceable Ed Parker lineage and certification, quality curriculum, instruction on methods of training, traditions, member unity, open communication to the leaders, consultation, studio administration, guidance and seminars from top Kenpo Instructors, tournament training, etc.


Originally posted by kenpochip
What kind of benefit are we talking about for the organization itself - just the leaders of the organization making money, or benefiting in some other (more abstract) way?


Well I think it is obvious that it is a business venture....... It was for Mr. Parker (his livelihood) and many others as well. However I see many benefits other than monetary such as more comradery between members, greater understanding of Kenpo and all it's variations, sharing curriculum ideas and evolving, developing new training drills or methods of teaching, meeting new people, and spreading the Art of Kenpo around the World.

To Teach is to Learn.........

:asian:

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7




To Teach is to Learn.........

:asian:



I couldn't agree more!!!!

[Wertle]

I think it's interesting to see how different schools operate on terms of formality in addressing other members. I know in my system, the classes are on the smaller side, and there's a very familial atmosphere. We still maintain respect and order in classes, but they're fairly laid back, and my instructors are very much like surrogate big brothers to me.

When we go to classes with the Soke, I know (for me at least), referring to him as "Soke" carries the same sort of tone as if I were calling my grandfather "grandpa", rather than it would be like referring to a general.

I know in discussing class setups with some friends in different martial arts, we talked about schools set up in a military fashion and schools set up in a family fashion. My friend wasn't sure his class style fit into either category completely, so he suggested a temple set-up. Any thoughts on this?

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Wertle

I think it's interesting to see how different schools operate on terms of formality in addressing other members. I know in my system, the classes are on the smaller side, and there's a very familial atmosphere. We still maintain respect and order in classes, but they're fairly laid back, and my instructors are very much like surrogate big brothers to me.

When we go to classes with the Soke, I know (for me at least), referring to him as "Soke" carries the same sort of tone as if I were calling my grandfather "grandpa", rather than it would be like referring to a general.

I know in discussing class setups with some friends in different martial arts, we talked about schools set up in a military fashion and schools set up in a family fashion. My friend wasn't sure his class style fit into either category completely, so he suggested a temple set-up. Any thoughts on this?



What do you mean by "temple" set up?

[Wertle]

What do you mean by "temple" set up?

That's actually what I was wondering. I didn't know if it was a designated thing, or just something my friend was meddling with. I *think* he was referring to how the hierarchy of monks was set up in traditional Buddhist temples, but, having a completely limited knowledge of monks, I have no idea what that would be like.

[Zeke]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Yes, he is very traditional (and has a deep love and respect for Mr. Parker) and so are a lot of other of Mr. Parkers close circle. They will be offended if you call him Ed. This is normal for any leader all over the world, we are no different. I wouldn't think of going to England and upon being introduced to Margaret Thatcher say "Hi Margi".... I would probably be hauled off ..... if not by the Bobbies....... the people!! lol

:asian:

Well honestly if you did it in a respectful manner I not think anyone would have a problem with you calling her Maggie;) You see the thing is that the use of Mr., Mrs., and Yessir or Nosir is more or less an american idea. So over here in Europe it is nor such a big thing. And you can be respectful without using it. In some countries it will even be a sign of disrespect! :confused: Yes I know it sounds strange but it's the truth:D In my country you use a persons first name UNLESS you want to make fun of him , tell him you think he's an idiot or because you want him to know that you don't want anything to do with him ;) So I guess you can imagine that we sometimes feel a little weird calling the American instructors we bring in sir or Mr.:rolleyes: So normally I sort of "warn" them that we will tried to call them sirs/Mr. , but if the students don't do it , they should't take it as a sign of disrespect because it isn't meant that way. And I have yet to have anyone call us disrespectful when they left. One instructor even told me when he left that he was very surprised by how respectful my students were compared to his own, although mine called him by his fist name and his own adressed him as Mr. and Sir .
So as you said yourself "When in Rome":cool:
And of course when we are in the states we go with your ways (Well sort of;) )
Take care
Zeke

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Zeke



Well honestly if you did it in a respectful manner I not think anyone would have a problem with you calling her Maggie;) You see the thing is that the use of Mr., Mrs., and Yessir or Nosir is more or less an american idea. So over here in Europe it is nor such a big thing. And you can be respectful without using it. In some countries it will even be a sign of disrespect! :confused: Yes I know it sounds strange but it's the truth:D In my country you use a persons first name UNLESS you want to make fun of him , tell him you think he's an idiot or because you want him to know that you don't want anything to do with him ;) So I guess you can imagine that we sometimes feel a little weird calling the American instructors we bring in sir or Mr.:rolleyes: So normally I sort of "warn" them that we will tried to call them sirs/Mr. , but if the students don't do it , they should't take it as a sign of disrespect because it isn't meant that way. And I have yet to have anyone call us disrespectful when they left. One instructor even told me when he left that he was very surprised by how respectful my students were compared to his own, although mine called him by his fist name and his own adressed him as Mr. and Sir .
So as you said yourself "When in Rome":cool:
And of course when we are in the states we go with your ways (Well sort of;) )
Take care
Zeke

Every letter that was sent to me from England was addressed
"Master Kirk" ... is this like Mr?

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Kirk



Every letter that was sent to me from England was addressed
"Master Kirk" ... is this like Mr?

MASTER KIRK???

Since When?, Where, How?:soapbox:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by RCastillo



MASTER KIRK???

Since When?, Where, How?:soapbox:

I shoulda known you'd have something to say about that
comment :rofl:

[Klondike93]

Just glance to the far left of the screen, and there it is, Master :eek:


:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Klondike93

Just glance to the far left of the screen, and there it is, Master :eek:


:asian:

That's it! I'm gonna sue Martial Talk!

This is too much!

I wanna see his credentials, his references, the works!:soapbox:

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by RCastillo



That's it! I'm gonna sue Martial Talk!

This is too much!

I wanna see his credentials, his references, the works!:soapbox:

Again glance to the left and you'll see he has over 1200 references for you to read ;)


:asian:

[Doc]

Originally posted by RCastillo

I tried to eat first before Mr. Conatser, I caught a fork though my hand. :eek:

I've broken bread with Mr. Conaster and It has been my experience that if you don't eat when the opportunity presents itself, you would stay hungry, especially if he was buying :) We have both been known to put a serious strain on a Chinese Buffet.

Seriously, whatever happened to manners between adults and to our elders? I have chastised many a young store salesman who presumed because he had access to my first name, it was OK to use it. The rule is a simple one: You do not call anyone by their first name unless they give you permission to do so.

I received an e-mail from one of my nephews today who is 26 years old. The first word in his e-mail was "Sir." "Yes sir and no sir" has been in our family vocabulary since we all learned to talk, and I see no signs of it leaving anytime soon. Do they call me by my first name? Yes they do, just like Ed Parker Jr. did at that age, but it is always prefaced by "Uncle."

Now you don't have to make a big deal about it. I know Ed Parker ALLOWED some people to call him "Ed" even when he didn't like it. He never said a word to them but it did affect what he thought about that person. Generally speaking, if you refered to him inappropriately, you could never actually get as close as your indiscretion suggested you were no matter how hard you tried. I am the same way, if it matters to you. I geuss that's the burden of being old.

[Kirk]

Doc, just be aware the my southern brethren (non M.A. ists) might
call you "Mr Ron" and mean it in the highest respect. :asian:

[eternalwhitebelt]

Wow. I never ever thought that someone was being disrespectful to me by using my first name. I thought that was what it was for. Seems like a lot of b.s. to me. Sometimes the martial arts takes itself way to seriously.

[Doc]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

Wow. I never ever thought that someone was being disrespectful to me by using my first name. I thought that was what it was for. Seems like a lot of b.s. to me. Sometimes the martial arts takes itself way to seriously.

Well my comprehension challenged friend, if you re-read the post it makes no references to the martial arts, it speaks of "common courtesy and manners." I, being from the South do understand and appreciate the geographical and cultural deviation, and have no problem with it. But if someone finds usage of "common courtesy and manners" "too serious" that is there prerogative. However most of the really knowledgeable people I know in the arts subscribe to such B.S. on and off the mat. Maybe that is a reflection of the level of knowledge available. As a college student I can't think of one professor I called by his/her first name. Oh that's right, we're talking about just "karate." Sorry,

[eternalwhitebelt]

Wow, now I am comprehension challenged because I disagree with you. Okay what ever master, I mean Doctor. Exactly what do I call you? Speaking of college, where exactly did you get your Post Doctorate? You should just tell people you have a B.S. it would be more appropriate. Well, reread your post, you were refering to Ed Parker and how he allowed certain people to call him Ed. I do believe that is a reference to the martial arts. Last time I checked we are on a forum called Martial Talk. So sorry if I read between the lines. I assumed since you had a Post Doctorate you would have the ability to read between the lines. Sorry my mistake. I will keep everything literal next time so you can keep up and you will not get offended. If you care to continue with the negative posts please do I have enough ammo on you to go all year.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Doc



Well my comprehension challenged friend, if you re-read the post it makes no references to the martial arts, it speaks of "common courtesy and manners." I, being from the South do understand and appreciate the geographical and cultural deviation, and have no problem with it. But if someone finds usage of "common courtesy and manners" "too serious" that is there prerogative. However most of the really knowledgeable people I know in the arts subscribe to such B.S. on and off the mat. Maybe that is a reflection of the level of knowledge available. As a college student I can't think of one professor I called by his/her first name. Oh that's right, we're talking about just "karate." Sorry,

Hope this one goes in the way I want it to.

I had of enough of the demanded sirs and ma'am to last a lifetime from 11 years in the USAF and I respected very few people that I called sir/ma'am. Most of the time I referred to them by their rank, which kept things on an even keel with me. If someone DEMANDS that kind of respect from me, they can kiss my ass, I'll turn around and leave with an explanation of my sudden departure. People are given names for a reason, to identify them as an individual, and not part of the huge mass. I have a pretty unique name and I don't think anyone gets me confused with all the others out there with similar names either. By growing up in Mid-Texas during the 60's and 70's I know when it's proper to use those terms, and will play it by ear each time I meet someone new. Please don't be so speculative to say that most of the people who know something will require/subscribe to it, it may mean they don't know anything and shield it under the guise of courtesy and customs, or they have a bug in their bonnet (other explicitves can be used here as well). Under no circumstances have I ever used my rank, title, or position in the martial arts for introductions, or introduced myself as MR.. I have a name, I expect people to use it if they want me to listen to them.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Doc]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

Wow, now I am comprehension challenged because I disagree with you. Okay what ever master, I mean Doctor. Exactly what do I call you? Speaking of college, where exactly did you get your Post Doctorate? You should just tell people you have a B.S. it would be more appropriate. Well, reread your post, you were refering to Ed Parker and how he allowed certain people to call him Ed. I do believe that is a reference to the martial arts. Last time I checked we are on a forum called Martial Talk. So sorry if I read between the lines. I assumed since you had a Post Doctorate you would have the ability to read between the lines. Sorry my mistake. I will keep everything literal next time so you can keep up and you will not get offended. If you care to continue with the negative posts please do I have enough ammo on you to go all year.

I was talking about manners and courtesy among men, and you were talking about "b.s." martial arts which offended me and probably many others. Your desire to "read between the lines" has not served you well. Perhaps it would be better to just respond to what is said, instead of what is not. I stand by my comments completely.

[eternalwhitebelt]

I am sorry but my desire to read between the lines has always served me well. Literal people lack imagination. Actually I am one of the most respectful men you could ever meet. I spent years in the military myself while also growing up in a military family. There is nothing you could share with me when it comes to respect that I have not already learned. I have a problem with people who demand to be called certain things. Whatever. You are no better than anyone else. I have a sneaking feeling that your thoughts come from your police background. This kind of pretense is a joke. You say you are aware of cultural differences yet you made a remark about how you chastise people in retail when they presume to think they can refer to you by your first name. If you were so understanding you would just blow it off and not consider it a big deal. If you have ever lived in another country you tend to not take your self and your cultureal beliefs too seriously. You begin to see that others do indeed have valid points. When it comes to your remark about the levels of knowledge being available and how it is usually comparable to the b.s. (my phrase) well I also disagree on this point. I had many profs. outside of class that prefered me to call them by their first name. One had won a pulitser for his writing. He lacked all pretense. He was a very good friend and he never withheld knowledge from me. I am sorry you have had experiences like that but that may be a reflection of your personality and your interactions with people you presume to be knowledgable. As for the martial arts every person that I respect knowledge wise prefers me to call them by their first name, whether we are on the mat or sharing a beer. It is a shame that you prefer to be called DOC. I respect your knowledge RON I just know where the info. came from, and I do not respect you for not telling the truth about that.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RCastillo

That's it! I'm gonna sue Martial Talk!


We're broke! I swear!

I think "master" is still used to address a man under the age of majority in England, is it not? It was done in the most recent Austin Powers movie for the flashback to boarding school ("Master Powers", "Master Evil").

In Modern Arnis there is a Michael Bates who achieved the rank of Master...he was given the alternate title "jr. prof." rather than the unfortunate Master Bates.

[Doc]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

I am sorry but my desire to read between the lines has always served me well. Literal people lack imagination. Actually I am one of the most respectful men you could ever meet. I spent years in the military myself while also growing up in a military family. There is nothing you could share with me when it comes to respect that I have not already learned. I have a problem with people who demand to be called certain things. Whatever. You are no better than anyone else. I have a sneaking feeling that your thoughts come from your police background. This kind of pretense is a joke. You say you are aware of cultural differences yet you made a remark about how you chastise people in retail when they presume to think they can refer to you by your first name. If you were so understanding you would just blow it off and not consider it a big deal. If you have ever lived in another country you tend to not take your self and your cultureal beliefs too seriously. You begin to see that others do indeed have valid points. When it comes to your remark about the levels of knowledge being available and how it is usually comparable to the b.s. (my phrase) well I also disagree on this point. I had many profs. outside of class that prefered me to call them by their first name. One had won a pulitser for his writing. He lacked all pretense. He was a very good friend and he never withheld knowledge from me. I am sorry you have had experiences like that but that may be a reflection of your personality and your interactions with people you presume to be knowledgable. As for the martial arts every person that I respect knowledge wise prefers me to call them by their first name, whether we are on the mat or sharing a beer. It is a shame that you prefer to be called DOC. I respect your knowledge RON I just know where the info. came from, and I do not respect you for not telling the truth about that.

You are entitled to your experieces and how you choose to interact with people, as I am. Once again your reading between the lines is incorrect. I do not prefer to be called "Doc," for it is only an informal screen name for this forum. As for the other, you know nothing about me, my knowledge, where it came from, or anything else for that matter that pertains to me. You know only what you've been told. In fact, you don't really even know my real name. I don't demand anyone refer to me in any manner, unless they choose a productive interaction. It is not my intent to tell anyone how they should interact with anyone, however I do have a right to control my own communications and familiarites. If you want to accept differences in culture, start with me. I don't appreciate people being familiar with me that I don't know, yet you seem intent on forcing your cultural preference on me while you remain anon. I think more than anything else, that speaks for itself.

[arnisador]

A Post-Doctorate is a position, not a degree.

Whether college profs. are called by their first name or not varies widely by the college and especially by geography. In any event it's fairly common for grad. students to call their profs. by their first names, for example.

One addresses an officer as Sir/Ma'am as a show of respect to the office, not the officer. (Yeah, I know that can be a hard distinction to swallow sometimes.) It's an assertion that the chain of command will be respected.

Formally, Mister is itself a title--e.g., the eldest child of a baronet was entitled to be addressed as Mister if of age, if memory serves.

I live in the Midwest and yesterday a two year old was calling me by my first name. My wife has long since given in to this custom but it still drives me crazy, and I insist my kids use Mr./Ms./Mrs. unless the adult insists otherwise. Even then I insist they refer to that person as Mr./Ms./Mrs. so-and-so even if they address them by their first name.

The instructors I respected most have had me call them sensei despite being a shihan, Mister despite being a datu, etc.

[Matt Stone]

The instructors I respected most have had me call them sensei despite being a shihan, Mister despite being a datu, etc.

The teachers that insisted you call them sensei as opposed to shihan were only using the terms properly.

IM (and others) O, titles such as shihan, kyoshi, renshi, hanshi, etc., are used only in written documents pertaining to that person. They are not terms to be used in verbal address, and it is considered impolite (edited by Yiliquan1) in Japan to do so.

Of course, it is also impolite (edited by Yiliquan1) in Japan to introduce yourself as "Sensei X," or (even more humously) "X Sensei."

In CMA, the terms are looser for teachers (the above titles being degrees of licensing as a teacher, not just terms for any old teacher), but more restrictive for juniors.

Whatever.

Gambarimasu.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

The teachers that insisted you call them sensei as opposed to shihan were only using the terms properly.

I know you're correct in a formal sense, but it's been my experience in the States that if one is a Shihan then they expect to be addressed as "Shihan Smith" etc. Whether this is arrrogance or ignorance of the custom to which you refer I don't know. In that sense it is something of a statement that looked for "only" sensei. Others may have had different experience with this of course!

[Matt Stone]

It boils down to ignorance of the words and their real use.

Somebody hands you a certificate written in a foreign language you don't speak, and you are told that now you are "rosebud" instead of "daisy petal."

What are you supposed to think? :confused:

Which leads me to the entire topic of broadening and deepening one's understanding of the culture and language behind the art being studied... Sometimes things don't really make sense until you go down that path - but few do.

Just the way things are, I suppose...

Doesn't mean I have to like it, though! :lol:

Gambarimasu.

[Bob Hubbard]

I know of at least 1 school where -every- black belt is called 'sensei'...5 yrs old and higher...

but thats a whole different thread...



It boils down to ignorance of the words and their real use. I think says it all.

:asian:

[Matt Stone]

I guess I have come across the wrong way when I have posted my views of the monolingualism of American martial arts and artists...

Not everybody has the time nor inclination to dig into the ancient history of another country and culture just to better understand why they decided to punch and kick one way and not another.

For many people, simply punching and kicking that way is enough. And if it stopped there, I would be okay with that.

But what really chaps my butt is when these practitioners who have not done their homework sufficiently well begin teaching. They then pass on incomplete information to the unsuspecting and unwary.

Do they do so deliberately with malicious intent? Not hardly. But does it damage the fabric of our martial heritage nonetheless? You betcha.

If we were to allow high school teachers and university professors to roam the halls of higher education without having spent a satisfactory period of time learning certain aspects of their respective fields, we would rapidly see a diminishing capacity in those they are charged with instructing... While much of the details of many fields of study are left untouched in general education programs, those who choose to pursue those specializations do end up learning them... They are details that the unwashed masses find boring and inconsequential, but to the experts in the field it is the details that provide the demarcation between master and student...

And so it is with martial arts. We are not so significantly different in what we are doing as to totally ignore the university model of education. We have "professors" who are charged with the education of their students not in the gross information they should have already mastered elsewhere, but in the details of their specialization. Little things are the mark of mastery, not big things... It is the attention to detail that contrasts an expert with a novice...

Okay. So some folks don't care. That's fine too. As long as they don't teach, or if they do teach they don't presume to make things up that they don't have any knowlegde of. And, if corrected by someone who does have knowledge, they should accept that correction with the dignity and humility they should have developed by the time they were physically skilled enough to enable them to know enough to teach their art to others... Not everybody is a bookworm - I am, always have been - and that's fine. But if someone were to show a MA instructor a new way to perform a technique, they would likely accept that information with open arms.

To my mind, being corrected on language use, title use, customs, courtesies, etc., is little different.

However, as I step off my soapbox, I know it will never go away. We will forever be plagued by the conflict between the half-trained teacher and the know it all bookworm. Luckily enough, that whole yin/yang dualism thing has kept us going this long... perhaps the relationship between the bookworm and the knuckle-dragger is meant to be...?

Who knows.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I know of at least 1 school where -every- black belt is called 'sensei'...5 yrs old and higher...

but thats a whole different thread...


I think says it all.

:asian:

Oh great, now Kirk will wanna be called "Sensei!"
:rofl:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by arnisador



We're broke! I swear!

I think "master" is still used to address a man under the age of majority in England, is it not? It was done in the most recent Austin Powers movie for the flashback to boarding school ("Master Powers", "Master Evil").

In Modern Arnis there is a Michael Bates who achieved the rank of Master...he was given the alternate title "jr. prof." rather than the unfortunate Master Bates.

Gee, that last paragraph is one to quit on!:eek:

[Bob Hubbard]

Mr. Stone hit on several important points.

I think in part it boils down to people dont want to accept that they spent 5+ years at something they either a-dont really understand, or b-got wrong. Take something simple - Sushi. How many folks think its raw fish? I've got 2 dictionaries. 1 defines it as "raw fish on rice" the other as "vinigared rice balls with raw fish or egg". I believe its actually 'seasoned rice' that is then topped or wrapped with "stuff". But I'm constantly explaining (with my limited knowledge) at the buffets.

Now, if we get a snack food wrong....how much else do we get wrong too? Who wants to really dig into it, when they have so much else to do. Easier to take someone elses word for it, even if they are wrong.

Sadly, most folks in the US know more about their favorite sports team than they do their own history. Ignorance of someone elses is almost a given. Its sad, but too often true. So when the instructor tells you he is 'Master McFly', and you bow 3 times to his instructors picture, and do a fancy 'dance' at the start and end of every class because 'thats the tradition', whos gonna question it.

Hell, I took Kenpo for about a year..took a guy from Sweden to finally explain to my what all those hand motions before and after the forms were really about (oh, and what short 1 really was for). I went back and asked the instructors at my old school..they had no idea. :(


As for me personally...please tell me when I've got it wrong...I want to learn as much as I possibly can about the arts and the cultures. :)

:asian:

[Matt Stone]

From History of Sushi (http://www.american.edu/academic.depts/sis/sfpages/projects/sushi/sushi2.htm)


It wasn't until the eighteenth century that a clever chef named Yohei decided to forgo the fermentation and serve sushi in something resembling its present form. It became very popular and two distinct styles emerged Kansai style, from the city of Osaka in the Kansai region, and Edo style, from Tokyo, which was then called Edo. Osaka has always been the commercial capital of Japan, and the rice mercahnts there developed sushi that consisted primarily of seasoned rice mixed with other ingredients and formed into decorative, edible packages. Tokyo, located on a bay then rich with fish and shellfish, produced nigirizushi, featuring a select bit of seafood on a small pad of seasoned rice. Although the ornamental sushi of the Kansai region is still very popular, it is nigirizushi that that foreigners are familiar with.

And from International Gourmet (http://international-gourmet.net/sushi/etiquette.htm)


Some rules to remember:
Never pass food to someone using chopsticks. This act parallels passing cremated bones of a deceased relative at a Japanese funeral. If you must share food, pass them the plate so that they can pick from it instead.

If you take food from a shared plate (such as in the above situation), use the reverse ends of your chopsticks rather than the ends which go in your mouth.

Never bite into a piece of food and then replace the other half on your plate. Once you have picked something up you should eat all of it.

When not using your chopsticks, you should place them in front of you, parallel to the edge of the sushi bar, with the narrow ends in the provided hashi oki; never place them directly on the bar.
Never leave rice after a meal. Leaving any kind of food is considered rude, but leaving rice is especially so.

Never smoke in a sushi bar, it obscures the delicate flavours of the fish for everyone else. Ashtrays will likely be provided in many sushi bars (especially in Europe and America) but to use them is dismissive of the efforts of the chef.

Never expect the chef to handle money, another employee will settle the bill for you. People who handle the food never touch the money.

Do not ask for knives. This would imply that the food is so tough it can't be properly eaten without them.

Don't make wasabi soup with your soy sauce! Sushi Chef's cringe at this spectacle that Americans often make. Wasabi paralyzes your palette and will hide the subtle flavors that fish has when eaten raw.

And


Vinegared rice is the heart of all sushi. Despite what Americans think, sushi does not mean "fish" in Japanese but rather signifies any vinegared rice dish. The fish is sashimi. Wrap the two together in portions and sell it as sushi, and the name still refers to the rice, not the fish. Sushi is indeed the term for the special rice but it is modified, in Japanese, to zushi when coupled with modifiers that describe the different styles of this most popular dish.

There is more to find, of course, but just look at what there is to learn about a little ball of rice with a slice of raw fish on it... Imagine how little all of us know about so many things...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

[eternalwhitebelt]

Arnisador. My response about his Post Doc. was right on. You hit the nail on the head. He claims to teach at an institute that resembles a university environement. PH. D. follows his name on his web site. That is my point exactly. He is claiming both of these. I will choose to leave this alone though and move on. Clyde I must say that I agree with you on the military thing. I feel exactly as you do.

[Doc]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

Arnisador. My response about his Post Doc. was right on. You hit the nail on the head. He claims to teach at an institute that resembles a university environement. PH. D. follows his name on his web site. That is my point exactly. He is claiming both of these. I will choose to leave this alone though and move on. Clyde I must say that I agree with you on the military thing. I feel exactly as you do.

:D

[kenpo3631]

I had of enough of the demanded sirs and ma'am to last a lifetime from 11 years in the USAF and I respected very few people that I called sir/ma'am.

With all due respect Clyde USAF people don't get much respect in general...:rofl: (joking)


Most of the time I referred to them by their rank, which kept things on an even keel with me.

Totally true. You HAVE to respect the rank, but you DON'T have to respect the person. That's a fact of life in the military.

I personally call everyone Sir or Ma'am, Mr. or Mrs. no matter where I am. It was how I ws raised. Usually I will as the person "What should I call you? Mr., by first name? What do you prefer?" I leave it all up to that person.

Let them decide:asian:

[Sigung86]

Perhaps offense will be taken at this post, but it seems to me that most of the latter portions of this post could be better handled on the mudhut venue.

Culturally, we are constantly changing. All of us, no matter our location. The advent of the web and forums such as this tend to create radical change. Generations change. It is something we all, from surviving generations, have to deal with.

Clyde, rebellion for rebellion's sake isn't always a good thing. I'm not saying that to get an argument started... You know me better than that. That would be the Right Reverend BoB's job! :lol:

It has been an observation of mine, that for better or worse, in the past, and to this day, that the amount of courtesy, and respect, that any one person shows to others is an indicator of the amount of respect that they have for themselves.

Culturally, we in America, still have some of us who like the idea of courtesy. It is as much a matter of convenience as anything else. If you are nice, and respectful, you may get further in the things you are attempting to accomplish.

Respect, and courtesy are personal things. There are, by virtue of our history on this planet, certain things that everyone wants. I'm not sure, but somehow, I suspect that respect is located somewhere in Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs.

Familiarity, unwarranted, or un-asked for does not fit into "my" paradigm of respect. You and I are on a first name basis, based on our years of interaction. If you want to call me a "Dick head" over something that we disagree on, we would, in all likelihood, laugh about it and agree to disagree, whereas, someone who calls me a "Dick head", of whom I have no knowledge or track record of interface, could be cruising for the proverbial bruising.

What goes further, in my mind, to curry this particular trend, is the newly given anonymity in our culture. People can, with virtual impunity, come on a web and simply because someone disagrees with them, take an argument to a personal, vindictive, inane level without clarifying anything, ameliorating any situation, or correcting anything. much like the constant generalizations about the AKKI people being mud-slingers, or Doc's credibility.

This kind of mud slinging, by ANYONE, does no honor to ANYONE, and in fact, tends to make the slinger look a little less than honorable, knowledgeable, mature, or thinking.

<sigh> It has crossed my mind on more than one occasion that some old customs should still be around. For example... If you have that large a bone to pick with someone, you should be able to call them out in the street at high noon, and have a show down. That's a one time, guns blazing, it's over ... Someone is right (alive) and someone is wrong (dead) kind of thing. Then, perhaps, we could all get on with our lives, without the childishness.


Ahhh ... Well ... Back to my hermitage here on Farmer Mountain.

Take care,

Dan "You can call me Mr., but you doesn't has to call me twister" Farmer:rofl:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Sigung86

Perhaps offense will be taken at this post, but it seems to me that most of the latter portions of this post could be better handled on the mudhut venue.

Culturally, we are constantly changing. All of us, no matter our location. The advent of the web and forums such as this tend to create radical change. Generations change. It is something we all, from surviving generations, have to deal with.

Clyde, rebellion for rebellion's sake isn't always a good thing. I'm not saying that to get an argument started... You know me better than that. That would be the Right Reverend BoB's job! :lol:

It has been an observation of mine, that for better or worse, in the past, and to this day, that the amount of courtesy, and respect, that any one person shows to others is an indicator of the amount of respect that they have for themselves.

Culturally, we in America, still have some of us who like the idea of courtesy. It is as much a matter of convenience as anything else. If you are nice, and respectful, you may get further in the things you are attempting to accomplish.

Respect, and courtesy are personal things. There are, by virtue of our history on this planet, certain things that everyone wants. I'm not sure, but somehow, I suspect that respect is located somewhere in Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs.

Familiarity, unwarranted, or un-asked for does not fit into "my" paradigm of respect. You and I are on a first name basis, based on our years of interaction. If you want to call me a "Dick head" over something that we disagree on, we would, in all likelihood, laugh about it and agree to disagree, whereas, someone who calls me a "Dick head", of whom I have no knowledge or track record of interface, could be cruising for the proverbial bruising.

What goes further, in my mind, to curry this particular trend, is the newly given anonymity in our culture. People can, with virtual impunity, come on a web and simply because someone disagrees with them, take an argument to a personal, vindictive, inane level without clarifying anything, ameliorating any situation, or correcting anything. much like the constant generalizations about the AKKI people being mud-slingers, or Doc's credibility.

This kind of mud slinging, by ANYONE, does no honor to ANYONE, and in fact, tends to make the slinger look a little less than honorable, knowledgeable, mature, or thinking.

<sigh> It has crossed my mind on more than one occasion that some old customs should still be around. For example... If you have that large a bone to pick with someone, you should be able to call them out in the street at high noon, and have a show down. That's a one time, guns blazing, it's over ... Someone is right (alive) and someone is wrong (dead) kind of thing. Then, perhaps, we could all get on with our lives, without the childishness.


Ahhh ... Well ... Back to my hermitage here on Farmer Mountain.

Take care,

Dan "You can call me Mr., but you doesn't has to call me twister" Farmer:rofl:

Well, maybe Clyde is gonna be the new James "Rebel W/O a Cause" Dean?

Speaking of that last paragraph, I know a few Principals on my job I 'd like to take out to the parking lot, and beat the snot out of them. They got no guts! Pencil pushing wimps, now you got me going Dan!:soapbox:

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Sigung86

Perhaps offense will be taken at this post, but it seems to me that most of the latter portions of this post could be better handled on the mudhut venue.

Culturally, we are constantly changing. All of us, no matter our location. The advent of the web and forums such as this tend to create radical change. Generations change. It is something we all, from surviving generations, have to deal with.

Clyde, rebellion for rebellion's sake isn't always a good thing. I'm not saying that to get an argument started... You know me better than that. That would be the Right Reverend BoB's job! :lol:

It has been an observation of mine, that for better or worse, in the past, and to this day, that the amount of courtesy, and respect, that any one person shows to others is an indicator of the amount of respect that they have for themselves.

Culturally, we in America, still have some of us who like the idea of courtesy. It is as much a matter of convenience as anything else. If you are nice, and respectful, you may get further in the things you are attempting to accomplish.

Respect, and courtesy are personal things. There are, by virtue of our history on this planet, certain things that everyone wants. I'm not sure, but somehow, I suspect that respect is located somewhere in Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs.

Familiarity, unwarranted, or un-asked for does not fit into "my" paradigm of respect. You and I are on a first name basis, based on our years of interaction. If you want to call me a "Dick head" over something that we disagree on, we would, in all likelihood, laugh about it and agree to disagree, whereas, someone who calls me a "Dick head", of whom I have no knowledge or track record of interface, could be cruising for the proverbial bruising.

What goes further, in my mind, to curry this particular trend, is the newly given anonymity in our culture. People can, with virtual impunity, come on a web and simply because someone disagrees with them, take an argument to a personal, vindictive, inane level without clarifying anything, ameliorating any situation, or correcting anything. much like the constant generalizations about the AKKI people being mud-slingers, or Doc's credibility.

This kind of mud slinging, by ANYONE, does no honor to ANYONE, and in fact, tends to make the slinger look a little less than honorable, knowledgeable, mature, or thinking.

<sigh> It has crossed my mind on more than one occasion that some old customs should still be around. For example... If you have that large a bone to pick with someone, you should be able to call them out in the street at high noon, and have a show down. That's a one time, guns blazing, it's over ... Someone is right (alive) and someone is wrong (dead) kind of thing. Then, perhaps, we could all get on with our lives, without the childishness.


Ahhh ... Well ... Back to my hermitage here on Farmer Mountain.

Take care,

Dan "You can call me Mr., but you doesn't has to call me twister" Farmer:rofl:

Mr. Farmer,
Be completely honest now and tell us how you REALLY feel :rofl:
Well said and does make a lot sense.....I think what you said holds true you can disagree and still show a tremendous amount of respect I think one of the big problems I have seen though is certain people who claim to be holding the banner of respect high take disagreement as a personal attack. That is extremely disrespectful in my book. I was raised by my grandpa and recieved quite a few lessons in common courtesy and respect, I used sir/maam, please/thank you or I recieved corporal punishement on the spot...if he found out about it later it was even worse!
I try to be courteous, I ask alot of questions, when I dont think something sounds right I will ask more about it or say I dont think its right. Some people place themselves so high on the heirchey that they deem this as being disrespectful. When it frakly it is just the opposite. I respected them in my demenor and I respected them enough to ask them or speak to them about the issue that means i usually trust and value their experience and respect them...yes respect them! Ive heard people several times state the fact that its a privledge to ask certain people question, people who seem to always be talking about being disrespected. Its not a privledge to be honest I think its an obligation due to your position of respect. Just like money..you cant take it with you but you can set it up to where others can use it after your long gone!!!
As to the shoot outs at high noon, i dont think the city could work the street cleanup into the budget so you might have to stand on tarps when you do it...but that sounds like a reality show waiting to happen to me!!!!



Brian "not at the doughnut shop" Hunter

[Michael Billings]

Thank you for taking the time to put your view in print.

I get tired of all the apologist, saying "this post may get me in trouble", or some other disclaimer, then slamming other posters. I also resent having to read posts that clearly will elicit negative responses. That is why I ended up spending more time on this forum, than on others. There is nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree, but when it becomes a reciprical bashing of each other, the line needs to be drawn. Since I do believe in 1st ammendment rights, I draw the line by ignoring the posts, and usually not reading further posts in the same vein.

Brian Hunter, bravo for a good post that shares some of yourself, and your values. Anytime someone does this, there is some risk of an ego-smashing by some "ravenous individual." Maybe I am being too harsh, maybe it is just a function of lack of maturity that someone:

1. Has to "Win"
2. Has to have the last word.
3. Cannot ignore what is clearly "baiting" remarks.

Come on guys, can't we all play nice on this forum? If not, please take it off line, or at least to direct emails.

Guns at high noon, did not settle who was right or wrong ... just who was left.

My opinion and a nickle won't get you much.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

I have a sneaking feeling that your thoughts come from your police background.


I get cussed out flipped off, called names, threatened all the time id like to think I handle it well...you have jerks in law enforcement just like you have jerks in kenpo...Id like to think Im not half bad ;)

If you go demanding to be called "officer, seargent. sir" or whatever your just doing your part to escalate something your trying to calm down anyways......There are good cops out there keep the faith!

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by brianhunter




I get cussed out flipped off, called names, threatened all the time id like to think I handle it well...you have jerks in law enforcement just like you have jerks in kenpo...Id like to think Im not half bad ;)

If you go demanding to be called "officer, seargent. sir" or whatever your just doing your part to escalate something your trying to calm down anyways......There are good cops out there keep the faith!



That is being a bit positive don't you think???? :D

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by jeffkyle





That is being a bit positive don't you think???? :D


Hey your half empty Im half full (of it) it all comes out in the wash

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by brianhunter




Hey your half empty Im half full (of it) it all comes out in the wash


Along with all of your spare change.

[arnisador]

Sushi is raw fish. I won't brook any dissension on this point.

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by arnisador

Sushi is raw fish. I won't brook any dissension on this point.

Good, I was about ready to call the FDA!:rofl:

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by arnisador

Sushi is raw fish. I won't brook any dissension on this point.

Sushi is bait to catch bigger fish!

[Robbo]

Sashimi is actually raw fish. Sushi is still cooked by the oxidation of sauces and vinegars, just not by heat.

Sorry but my wife beats this into me every time I say raw fish is Sushi.

Rob

:D

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by Michael Billings



My opinion and a nickle won't get you much.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

A dollar isn't a dollar without a nickle!

Billy

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Sigung86


Clyde, rebellion for rebellion's sake isn't always a good thing. I'm not saying that to get an argument started... You know me better than that. That would be the Right Reverend BoB's job! :lol:



Dan "You can call me Mr., but you doesn't has to call me twister" Farmer:rofl:

Of course I know that Dan (Notice the first name LOL) but it's not a rebellion, it's what I've always thought about issues such as these. I figure anyone who demands respect doesn't need it, and I certainly won't be the one who gives it, in speech or in action. I've also got some pretty radical views on Immigration and Import/Export policy of the U.S. but I can save that for Netmeeting when you get it running again (Big Hint).

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[eternalwhitebelt]

Mr. Farmer,

I agree with most of what you have posted although I am sure some of it was directed to me for the simple fact that I would doubt you would direct any of it toward your instructor. The times are a changin'. I still find it strange that people would be offended by someone calling them by their first name. It would never cross my mind to reject someone on such simple terms. Doc stated that everyone deserves respect untill they prove otherwise, well Hell I believe the same thing. I also believe that everyone is my friend untill they prove otherwise. Is this so difficult to understand? If you read back through the posts there were simple questions asked, even after a disparaging remark that started it all, these questions were never answered and never are. Doc could put a lot of the negtivity towards him to rest if he would just anwser some simple questions. Okay moving on..

To extend this topic beyond common courtesy...into the martial arts.....sorry Doc....

What are your beliefs as far as respect in the martial arts? I think sometimes the b.s. goes to far. I have seen stuents bow to each other every time they go through a repition of a technique. Every time! At some point is it not redundent? At a seminar once the instructor had us stand in a horse stance for 30 minutes while he talked about his relationship with Ed Parker. He was offended because I stood in a natural stance after about 5 minutes. He began to reprimand me, saying I had no discipline and lacked common courtesy. Considering I have served time during combat I did not take it well to say the least. Was I disrepectful towards my elder, or was I realistic about getting my money's worth at a seminar and not wanting to stand around all day?

I think the point I was trying to make earlier when the good doctor became belligerent, was that none of us, by studying the martial arts, are finding a cure for cancer. That is what I meant when I said that people take them selves too seriously. There is an abundance of ******** in this business, and I just try to call it as I see it. I hear people say all of the time oh so and so is/ was a great man. You are disrespecting him by saing or doing so and so. I mean give me a break. It is the martial arts for gods sake! How many people have been saved from persecution? MLK and Ghandi and Harriet Tubman are turning over in their graves. Those are great people. My cousin was killed in combat while trying to save four other soldiers who were trapped. He was nineteen. He was a great MAN.
Usually the person we are talking about did nothing but get rich off of teaching people how to fight. I have no problem with that but just because you can whup someones ass it does not make you a great man. The ******** needs to stop, we are all in this together and if people try to put themselves on a pedastal I for one am going to try to nock them off.

I don't no what the hell this post is about and I know it sounds angry but I get up set with this putting martial artists on a pedastal. Going to seminars and seeing people be treated like servants and afraid to ask questions because the instructor makes them feel ignorant because they don't know anythng about the "real kenpo." Or hearing what you are learning is commercial kenpo not the real deal, it is not as effective. Give me a break and get over yourself already.

Now that I am sure I have offended everyone I will go deal with my issues and seek counseling.
:soapbox: :soapbox: :asian: :cool: :D :(
signing off
Dr., Mr., Master, Sigung, Guru, Pendekar, Datu, husband, father, son, cousin, veteran, civilian, friend, teacher, student,
ETERNALWHITEBELT

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by arnisador

Sushi is raw fish. I won't brook any dissension on this point.

Do you mean this in a serious vein, or are you being humorous?

Sushi is not raw fish. Sushi is often made with raw fish. Raw fish is in sushi, but not all sushi has raw fish...

Tamago (sweet egg omelette)
Ebi (cooked shrimp)
Kappa-maki (cucumber roll)
Futo-maki (whatever you have left over on the table goes into this one! :D)
Natto-maki (foul smelling fermented soybeans :barf: with a bitter taste; extremely healthy, but nasty nonetheless)

And there are others that, while made with fish, are not raw... (crab and mackeral come to mind, and there are others)

Hope you were just being humorous. There are better things to get into scuffles about than food...

Gambarimasu.

[Rob_Broad]

Could we please get back onto the subject of the Benefit of Associations.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Sigung86

Culturally, we are constantly changing. All of us, no matter our location. The advent of the web and forums such as this tend to create radical change. Generations change. It is something we all, from surviving generations, have to deal with.

While times may change, standards must remain...


Clyde, rebellion for rebellion's sake isn't always a good thing. I'm not saying that to get an argument started... You know me better than that. That would be the Right Reverend BoB's job! :lol:

I dunno... :idunno: Sometimes I think rebellion for rebellion's sake may be constructive, depending on the circumstances...


It has been an observation of mine, that for better or worse, in the past, and to this day, that the amount of courtesy, and respect, that any one person shows to others is an indicator of the amount of respect that they have for themselves.

While I would agree with that, I would also point out that a person may well have a great degree of self-respect, but be completely incapable of showing respect to others based on their own personality traits... Some folks are just plain ol' tough to get along with...


Culturally, we in America, still have some of us who like the idea of courtesy. It is as much a matter of convenience as anything else. If you are nice, and respectful, you may get further in the things you are attempting to accomplish.

Momma always tol' me that you kin catch more flies with honey than ya kin with vinegar... :ladiesman:


Respect, and courtesy are personal things. There are, by virtue of our history on this planet, certain things that everyone wants. I'm not sure, but somehow, I suspect that respect is located somewhere in Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs.

I would have to agree again... Nobody likes being treated poorly or in a disrespectful fashion. Everyone chafes when dealing with rudeness, no matter the situation.


Familiarity, unwarranted, or un-asked for does not fit into "my" paradigm of respect. You and I are on a first name basis, based on our years of interaction. If you want to call me a "Dick head" over something that we disagree on, we would, in all likelihood, laugh about it and agree to disagree, whereas, someone who calls me a "Dick head", of whom I have no knowledge or track record of interface, could be cruising for the proverbial bruising.

Seems you and I have a lot of similar beliefs! :D I had a run in once with a soldier that worked for me... We were the same rank, and he presumed to walk up one day and start calling me by my first name... Hardly anyone calls me by "Matt." It is usually just "Stone," or (even by peers) "SGT Stone." There are only 3 people in the world that call me "Matthew," and one of them is dead... :( So I asked the guy - "Am I your girlfriend? Are you sleeping with me? Since when do you presume we are close enough for you to call me by my first name?" I was a little hot about the whole thing - 19 and inexperienced in interpersonal relations, and to top it off the guy hit on my wife constantly... :ticked:


This kind of mud slinging, by ANYONE, does no honor to ANYONE, and in fact, tends to make the slinger look a little less than honorable, knowledgeable, mature, or thinking.

Like the bitching session that Kirk and I just engaged in? :D:D:D


<sigh> It has crossed my mind on more than one occasion that some old customs should still be around. For example... If you have that large a bone to pick with someone, you should be able to call them out in the street at high noon, and have a show down. That's a one time, guns blazing, it's over ... Someone is right (alive) and someone is wrong (dead) kind of thing. Then, perhaps, we could all get on with our lives, without the childishness.

Well, I don't know about a showdown in the middle of the street, but it sure would be nice to be able to get some folks in the ring periodically... By becoming too "civilized" to allow dueling, armed or unarmed, we eliminated the one form of sanctioned private violence for the settling of disputes and quarrels... Oh well, that's progress I guess...

As for Associations and Who Should Benefit from them...

An association serves what purpose? To elevate the president of the association to a grander level? No.

An association should serve (and the emphasis is deliberate) the members. It should promote the art and provide for benefits of membership to the members. If it does neither of these things, what's the point?

Gambarimasu.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Hope you were just being humorous.

Indeed, I was--or trying to I should say.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by arnisador



Indeed, I was--or trying to I should say.

Knowing you (well, kind of, by association, anyway - it is hard for me to think that someone John speaks well of would be a *&#$@^@^*$#*&$), I figured as much...

Just didn't want to piss anyone off...

:asian:

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by brianhunter




I get cussed out flipped off, called names, threatened all the time id like to think I handle it well...you have jerks in law enforcement just like you have jerks in kenpo...Id like to think Im not half bad ;)

If you go demanding to be called "officer, seargent. sir" or whatever your just doing your part to escalate something your trying to calm down anyways......There are good cops out there keep the faith!

Hi Brian,

I'm a lot late in getting to you. I was in your town about a month ago... Unfortunately, due to family circumstance, I could not get an opportunity to hook up with you guys. Wichita is a really cool little town... Lots happening there ...

I did, however, get an opportunity to make the moonlight cruise and car show. What a gas! And if anybody in that area wants a real treat... I would suggest Saturday morning brunch at SPONZ!

If the drive between KC and Wichita didn't make me a) Feel like I need to sleep 12 hours while driving. and b) make me feel the need to do 130 mph... I'd probably go there more often!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Sigung86



Hi Brian,

I'm a lot late in getting to you. I was in your town about a month ago... Unfortunately, due to family circumstance, I could not get an opportunity to hook up with you guys. Wichita is a really cool little town... Lots happening there ...

I did, however, get an opportunity to make the moonlight cruise and car show. What a gas! And if anybody in that area wants a real treat... I would suggest Saturday morning brunch at SPONZ!

If the drive between KC and Wichita didn't make me a) Feel like I need to sleep 12 hours while driving. and b) make me feel the need to do 130 mph... I'd probably go there more often!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan

Wichita is a nice place to live, a lot going on!
If your into car shows and something you can do with your wife, There is a Fall Festival in a town (Suburb of Wichita) called Haysville (where I work) and they have an awsome car show with a bunch of family events its in October. I know your pain on driving to KC we go up there from time to time and it is no fun whatsoever! Plus getting around Kansas City makes me dizzy!

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Sigung86



Hi Brian,

I'm a lot late in getting to you. I was in your town about a month ago... Unfortunately, due to family circumstance, I could not get an opportunity to hook up with you guys. Wichita is a really cool little town... Lots happening there ...

I did, however, get an opportunity to make the moonlight cruise and car show. What a gas! And if anybody in that area wants a real treat... I would suggest Saturday morning brunch at SPONZ!

If the drive between KC and Wichita didn't make me a) Feel like I need to sleep 12 hours while driving. and b) make me feel the need to do 130 mph... I'd probably go there more often!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan


That is sooooo true about the drive to KC. I just did it, again, this last weekend. I don't do 130 mph Going to KC, but i usually get up to 105, at certain times, coming back from there. :)

Don't let brian talk to you about Haysville. Wichita is the place to be. Brian also has aluminum foil on his windows. LOL ;)

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by jeffkyle




That is sooooo true about the drive to KC. I just did it, again, this last weekend. I don't do 130 mph Going to KC, but i usually get up to 105, at certain times, coming back from there. :)

Don't let brian talk to you about Haysville. Wichita is the place to be. Brian also has aluminum foil on his windows. LOL ;)

Your just mad because you got evicted from the trailer park! I was talking about the car show anyways nimrod not staying there

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by brianhunter



Your just mad because you got evicted from the trailer park! I was talking about the car show anyways nimrod not staying there

I must have hit a sore spot telling on you about the foil...

[Rob_Broad]

Foil on the windows is acceptable, it is when people wrap it around a collander and wear it as a hat that I tend to get worried.

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Foil on the windows is acceptable, it is when people wrap it around a collander and wear it as a hat that I tend to get worried.


As a matter of fact, I saw a Foil Top Hat a few weeks ago. I think the person wearing it thought he was really cool. But he had me worried.