Toughest Kenpo Fighter Ever!

[RCastillo]

Though there've been several decades of Kenpo, and it's gone through various stages, which Individual turned out to be the Toughest, and best Technician with the most Wins/Championships?

Thanks:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

I am thinking Frank Trejo has to be in that list somewhere. With all his wins at the International he was quite the formidable opponent

[Klondike93]

I've never met Mr. Trejo, but I have heard alot about how tough he is.

Someone I know would have been my first kenpo instructor, Dave Hemmingway. He was one tought nut to crack when it came to sparring, point or full contact it didn't matter to him. Sad thing is he no longer does kenpo, just concentrates on being a cop :(



:asian:

[Rainman]

Originally posted by RCastillo

Though there've been several decades of Kenpo, and it's gone through various stages, which Individual turned out to be the Toughest, and best Technician with the most Wins/Championships?

Thanks:asian:

Maybe you could be more specific. There are a few really tough guys out there with a lot of skill and teaching ability. There are the competitve guys out there- some tough with skills that passed their knowledge along. The best technician, the toughest and the most wins and or championships don't necessarily exist all in the same person. The best fighter? What kind of fight? Sport or street? Who has killed, who has maimed- who has controlled and contained...

Interesting idea though... take it further.

:asian:

[satans.barber]

Hehe, imagine if we got all the seniors past and present in a room together for a little game of last man standing, that might decide it!

I suppose we can't vote for Ed in this? I wouldn't know then, I've not seen enough seniors in action. The best guy I've seen is Phil Cawood, but I don't know how he compares to Frank Trejo et al..

Ian.

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Rainman



Maybe you could be more specific. There are a few really tough guys out there with a lot of skill and teaching ability. There are the competitve guys out there- some tough with skills that passed their knowledge along. The best technician, the toughest and the most wins and or championships don't necessarily exist all in the same person. The best fighter? What kind of fight? Sport or street? Who has killed, who has maimed- who has controlled and contained...

Interesting idea though... take it further.

:asian:

Best fighter in competition, the most wins in point/continous sparring.

[kenpo3631]

Tom Kelly, Sigung LaBounty, Trejo, Castellanos...the list is endless

[Michael Billings]

Kelly, LaBounty, and Trejo all the way. Then there is Mike Pick, Bob Liles, et. al.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

[Bill Smith]

Here's a couple names I thought need their just-do's

Steve Sanders and Tommy Chavis (question on spelling). I have need met the two people, but have heard alot on them.

Mr. C can probably give more details.

Bill Smith

[Bill Smith]

Sorry for the english too. I meant "never", instead of "need".

Bill Smith

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

Tom Kelly, Sigung LaBounty, Trejo, Castellanos...the list is endless

WHAT???

Endless you say? Where does Mr. Dennis Conatser fit in?

We need a recount here! Get the auditors in here, NOW!:soapbox:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by satans.barber

I suppose we can't vote for Ed in this?

I hope you are not referring to Ed Parker with the above statement!

If you are....... I would suggest you use a more respectful manor to refer to our Founder. I didn't call him Ed when he was alive (and I was a personal student) and I don't call him that now that he is gone out of respect.

Mr. Parker, SGM Parker or other terms of this nature are all that should be used.

:mad: :flammad: :mad:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Bill Smith
Steve (Sanders) Muhammad and Tommy Chavis...
Were both great fighters as well....

however the list of Kenpo tournament fighters goes on and on.... we have had many, many....

the early guys that paved the way for us were Steve LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Ralph Castellenos, Rod Martin, Jim Trevino, Steve Muhammad (Sanders), Greg Bain, The Moore Brothers, Jim Bottom, to name a few of the old guys.......



:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by RCastillo
Where does Mr. Dennis Conatser fit in?


I'm a lover ...... man!

:asian:

[Kenpo Wolf]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



I hope you are not referring to Ed Parker with the above statement!

If you are....... I would suggest you use a more respectful manor to refer to our Founder. I didn't call him Ed when he was alive (and I was a personal student) and I don't call him that now that he is gone out of respect.

Mr. Parker, SGM Parker or other terms of this nature are all that should be used.

:mad: :flammad: :mad:

I very much agree with you even if I've never had the opportunity of training with the genius we know as Mr Parker, But this leads me to a question. Why does a lot of people refer to him as 'the Old Man'? I have always thought it to be disrespectful . Pardon my ignorance if this was a stupid question

[GouRonin]

"The Old Man" is a term taken from sailing. The Old Man was the head of the ship. While it may seem to be disrespectful it actually is said usually with a great deal of pride and respect by sailors to their captain.

Dennis. I disagree with your stance on calling Ed Parker "Ed." When I think of Ed Parker I personally think of Junior and in fact I call him that. Either Ed or [/i]"Chuck"[/i]. From the people that I have spoken to he introduced himself as Ed Parker. I would have called him Ed too in that case, but more than likely I would have used "The Old Man" when referring to him outside of his presence. He was a man who achieved great things but he was a man none the less. I think it gets dangerous to do start thinking too much otherwise. You have your opinion though and I'll have mine. They're not going to agree on this one.

As for the rest, I'd like to think that Dave Hebler was and still is one tough son of a beeyatch and I respect him immensely for that.

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



I hope you are not referring to Ed Parker with the above statement!

If you are....... I would suggest you use a more respectful manor to refer to our Founder. I didn't call him Ed when he was alive (and I was a personal student) and I don't call him that now that he is gone out of respect.

Mr. Parker, SGM Parker or other terms of this nature are all that should be used.

:mad: :flammad: :mad:

Oh dear, a hand slapping. Ouch.

I never met him, but if he's as kind, friendly and generous as people are quick to relate then I'm sure he would have let people call him by his given name?

If I'd met him I wouldn't have made him call me Mr. Atkinson. I don't agree with formality, it infers that some people are better than others.

Mr. Parker it is though if that's the way you want it Mr. Conatser.

Mr. Atkinson.

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7


Were both great fighters as well....

however the list of Kenpo tournament fighters goes on and on.... we have had many, many....

the early guys that paved the way for us were Steve LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Ralph Castellenos, Rod Martin, Jim Trevino, Steve Muhammad (Sanders), Greg Bain, The Moore Brothers, Jim Bottom, to name a few of the old guys.......



:asian:


I haven't heard that name for a while....Jim Trevino... It has been a long time since I have seen him, or even heard about him...what is he up to Mr. C?

[Sigung86]

I submit to you that none of us know the toughest Kenpo Fighter, ever! That person would be the man or woman who got through this whole meshuginah without ever fighting. :lol:

Dan "Nope! I didn't make it either ..." Farmer

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
I haven't heard that name for a while....Jim Trevino... It has been a long time since I have seen him, or even heard about him...what is he up to Mr. C?


Well, he's still alive......... lol......... I don't have a lot of contact with him. Last time I saw him was a few years ago, but he stopped in to see John Sepulveda a couple of months ago.

:asian:

[Kirk]

I agree with Mr C .. not because of any tradition. When I respect
people, I want them to KNOW damned well that I do. I will call
them sir, mr., master, or whatever the formality of that art is, until
they tell me otherwise. Some have been nice enough to tell me
their name is "Sir" or "Mr" when on the mat only. That's fine with
me too, so long as they're aware of my respect for them. It's
something I want.

In regards to Ed Jr ... I've heard some that HE considers friends
call him Edmund. I call him Mr Parker, until he says otherwise.

I call Mr Conatser "Mr C" because many have here, and he seems
to accept it .. possibly like Mr Parker accepted "the old man" ...
He had to have overheard him being refered to as that. If he had
objections, I'm sure he would've said something.

Questions:
Wasn't it Mr Parker that set the tradition of an instructor being
called "Mr" in the first place? this is what I was told

Mr C: .. any idea what Elvis called him? I'm curious about this one,
I heard tale that a lot of the 'formalities' were excused in his case.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kirk
Questions:
Wasn't it Mr Parker that set the tradition of an instructor being
called "Mr" in the first place? this is what I was told


Yes, it is found in the Infinite Insights (Book I, Chapter 9, pgs 89-96)



Mr C: .. any idea what Elvis called him? I'm curious about this one,
I heard tale that a lot of the 'formalities' were excused in his case.


C'mon.... this is Elvis now....... lol... He called him Ed. (What he allowed people to call him was his business - what others call him is our business [his close Black Belt Students - one of the few that still care!])

Keep in mind he allowed several close to him to call him Ed. Although I never would. (I always treated him with respect required or not). If I didn't....... Tom Kelly would have me doing push ups till next month if he found out!!!!

That is one of the main problems today....... Respect! I think we need a few respect adjustment sessions. :rofl:

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



C'mon.... this is Elvis now....... lol... He called him Ed. (What he allowed people to call him was his business - what others call him is our business [his close Black Belt Students - one of the few that still care!])

Keep in mind he allowed several close to him to call him Ed. Although I never would. (I always treated him with respect required or not). If I didn't....... Tom Kelly would have me doing push ups till next month if he found out!!!!

That is one of the main problems today....... Respect! I think we need a few respect adjustment sessions. :rofl:

Yeah, I called Mr. Coantser Dennis, he slapped me, and then takes me to chuch? Go figure?!?

:asian:

Yeah, I called Mr. Conatser, Dennis, he slapped me, and then takes me to church? Go figure?!?
:confused:

[Goldendragon7]

Absolve me......:rofl:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by GouRonin


Dennis. I disagree with your stance on calling Ed Parker "Ed." You have your opinion though and I'll have mine. They're not going to agree on this one.

As for the rest, I'd like to think that Dave Hebler was and still is one tough son of a beeyatch and I respect him immensely for that.

Doug,

I disagree with you as well, and I am one for rocking the boat to make sure it floats, but for me the terms Mr & Mrs maintain a level of basic respect among adults. And being raised by my grandparents, my elders were always Mr & Mrs...

I'm not comfortable calling a man or woman 30 yrs my senior in everything including martial arts experience by their first name, but that may be just me and it could be a cultural thing or regional thing or just the way a person was raised...not that's it wrong, it's just not right for me.

jb:asian:

p.s. I also heard that Mr. Hebler was a bad man, I'm having a chance to train with one of his Senior BB's now...

[Goldendragon7]

to let you come back in one piece..........

:asian:

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Doug,
I disagree with you as well

Yeah, that's been going around. However I'm not one to take issue with ill people.
:rolleyes:


Originally posted by jbkenpo
but for me the terms Mr & Mrs maintain a level of basic respect among adults. And being raised by my grandparents, my elders were always Mr & Mrs...
I'm not comfortable calling a man or woman 30 yrs my senior in everything including martial arts experience by their first name, but that may be just me and it could be a cultural thing or regional thing or just the way a person was raised...not that's it wrong, it's just not right for me.

I usually take my tone from how a person greets me. If they use my first name. I use theirs. if they ask me to use their last name then the same flows both ways. It depends on the level of formality they want. Personally if I meet someone I use Mr. or Mrs. first time out and go from there.

Ed Parker was a genious in what he was doing, but 5 bucks said he rode the porcelin pony once a day and put his pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us. If Dennis wants to refer to him however he wants I respect that. I don't agree with it but hey, such is life.


Originally posted by jbkenpo
p.s. I also heard that Mr. Hebler was a bad man, I'm having a chance to train with one of his Senior BB's now...

Dave Hebler is one bad @ss mofo. I e-mail him now and then to ask him if he still wants to kill me. He always does. I love the things you can always count on to be constants in life.

[Klondike93]

You just go right on being you :)


(but I'd refer to him as Mr. Parker and his son as Mr. Parker, if I ever get to meet him)


:asian:

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Klondike93
You just go right on being you

Da. I will.


Originally posted by Klondike93
(but I'd refer to him as Mr. Parker and his son as Mr. Parker, if I ever get to meet him)

Sure. Why not? Sounds good. I myself would hate to be called "Junior" all my life.

In all seriousness. When someone says Ed Parker I think of his son anyway.

[Seig]

Originally posted by GouRonin



I e-mail him now and then to ask him if he still wants to kill me. He always does. I love the things you can always count on to be constants in life.
I keep telling you that if you were a bit more respectfull, fewer people would want your head over their mantle!:rofl:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Seig


I keep telling you that if you were a bit more respectfull, fewer people would want your head over their mantle!:rofl:

Better him than me. I already have enough Bounty hunters after me on this Forum!:eek:

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by RCastillo



Better him than me. I already have enough Bounty hunters after me on this Forum!:eek:

That big T is like a bullseye.:snipe2:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad



That big T is like a bullseye.:snipe2:

Calling Seig, Mr. Conatser!! HELP!:apv:

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by RCastillo



Calling Seig, Mr. Conatser!! HELP!:apv:


I'm just joking, I wore the T for about 15 years, and I have been a target before.

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad




I'm just joking, I wore the T for about 15 years, and I have been a target before.

Yes, I know, I'll take more steroids like DC!LOL:rofl:

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Seig
I keep telling you that if you were a bit more respectfull, fewer people would want your head over their mantle!

I can't help it. It's a sickness! Heh heh heh...

I am TOTALLY respectful of Dave Hebler. He wants to kill me for other reasons, involving Canadian Whiskey and shot glasses. he likes me, he just wants to kill me to show me how much.

[Goldendragon7]

:rofl:

[Doc]

Originally posted by jbkenpo



Doug,

I disagree with you as well, and I am one for rocking the boat to make sure it floats, but for me the terms Mr & Mrs maintain a level of basic respect among adults. And being raised by my grandparents, my elders were always Mr & Mrs...

I'm not comfortable calling a man or woman 30 yrs my senior in everything including martial arts experience by their first name, but that may be just me and it could be a cultural thing or regional thing or just the way a person was raised...not that's it wrong, it's just not right for me.

jb:asian:

p.s. I also heard that Mr. Hebler was a bad man, I'm having a chance to train with one of his Senior BB's now...

I agree with JB. Perhaps its the fact that I'm ancient and from a "historical" generation, but we called it "common courtesy or manners." You don't call anyone by their first name who is your elder. Even as an adult you don't call a peer by his first name unless they give you permission.

It has nothing to do with the martial arts or this "new age" thing about earning respect. That's backwards. You don't "earn" respect, you "lose" it. You should always respect everyone until they do something to you personally to lose it. As a street cop I always had "three speeches" when I approached people. # 1 was, "Excuse me sir/ma'am." # 2 was, "Hey, let me talk to you." # 3 was, well let's just say it was "street nasty." No matter what a person looked like, how he was dressed, etc. I always began with my # 1 speech unless their actions dictated otherwise. Everybody deserves respect until "they lose it."

And that also means just because one person loses respect for someone doesn't mean you should too. People have disagreements and misunderstandings as a part of life. I remember my brother had a problem with a couple of people on the job that I knew. Because he couldn't stand them anymore he wanted me to dislike them as well. I refused because they had always been nice to me. Later on it turned out he was wrong and the reason he had a conflict with them was because of the lies of a third party with their own agenda. He had to apologize, but I didn't because I used only my own interaction as a guide.

Remember this: When you are familiar with or disrerspect a person you don't really know, it's really hard to reverse direction (especially in their eyes). For some of you, think back to when when you were dating that special person and you went to meet their parents. Don't tell me you would call their parents by their first names because they hadn't "earned" your respect yet. And if you did and reversed yourself later, they still always gave you that look didn't they? You see, you lost their respect while you were waiting for them to "earn" yours.

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Doc




As a street cop I always had "three speeches" when I approached people. # 1 was, "Excuse me sir/ma'am." # 2 was, "Hey, let me talk to you." # 3 was, well let's just say it was "street nasty." No matter what a person looked like, how he was dressed, etc. I always began with my # 1 speech unless their actions dictated otherwise. Everybody deserves respect until "they lose it."




Kudos to you Sir, kinda falls along with whatever the attitude so is the response?!?! Thats been how I handle people on the streets, I actually had someone call and complain because he said I was calling him "sir" to provoke him?!?!?! My chief told him "Hunter calls everyone sir, Sir" 99.9% of the time it does help deflate things if you start by calling someone sir or maam even if they did not deserve it, you still give it because your the better man not because they earned it

[Ronin]

Originally posted by Doc



I agree with JB. Perhaps its the fact that I'm ancient and from a "historical" generation, but we called it "common courtesy or manners." You don't call anyone by their first name who is your elder. Even as an adult you don't call a peer by his first name unless they give you permission.

It has nothing to do with the martial arts or this "new age" thing about earning respect. That's backwards. You don't "earn" respect, you "lose" it. You should always respect everyone until they do something to you personally to lose it. As a street cop I always had "three speeches" when I approached people. # 1 was, "Excuse me sir/ma'am." # 2 was, "Hey, let me talk to you." # 3 was, well let's just say it was "street nasty." No matter what a person looked like, how he was dressed, etc. I always began with my # 1 speech unless their actions dictated otherwise. Everybody deserves respect until "they lose it."

And that also means just because one person loses respect for someone doesn't mean you should too. People have disagreements and misunderstandings as a part of life. I remember my brother had a problem with a couple of people on the job that I knew. Because he couldn't stand them anymore he wanted me to dislike them as well. I refused because they had always been nice to me. Later on it turned out he was wrong and the reason he had a conflict with them was because of the lies of a third party with their own agenda. He had to apologize, but I didn't because I used only my own interaction as a guide.

Remember this: When you are familiar with or disrerspect a person you don't really know, it's really hard to reverse direction (especially in their eyes). For some of you, think back to when when you were dating that special person and you went to meet their parents. Don't tell me you would call their parents by their first names because they hadn't "earned" your respect yet. And if you did and reversed yourself later, they still always gave you that look didn't they? You see, you lost their respect while you were waiting for them to "earn" yours. I totally agree with you Doc.

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Doc

I agree with JB. Perhaps its the fact that I'm ancient and from a "historical" generation, but we called it "common courtesy or manners." You don't call anyone by their first name who is your elder. Even as an adult you don't call a peer by his first name unless they give you permission.


I've never done that unless I was forced, such as at school. All the peole I work with are older than me but I don't call them all 'Mrs Moxon' and 'Mrs Hunter', in this day and age it'd raise a laugh more than anything else.

I don't agree with this stance anyway, just because people are older than you doesn't necessarily mean they're better than you in some way, that's ageism.



when I approached people. # 1 was, "Excuse me sir/ma'am."


This calling people 'Sir' and 'Madam' all the time is culture independant; American people do it all the time but it's rare in Britain. People should remember that before judging people outright.

In terms of martial arts, I think being committed to a school and your training, being attentive and listening hard to what a sensei has to say, helping out where you can and speaking well of a school to people you know and work with is far more respectful than calling somone 'Mr. X' by default.

Then again, maybe that's just a young person's (20) POV.

Also, I'm not afraid to disagree with people just because they're famous!

Ian.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Doc



I agree with JB. Perhaps its the fact that I'm ancient and from a "historical" generation, but we called it "common courtesy or manners." You don't call anyone by their first name who is your elder. Even as an adult you don't call a peer by his first name unless they give you permission.

I agree with everything you said in your statement, but I'd just
like amend one thing. In the south, it's a "historical" tradition at
times to refer to people as Ms firstname or Mr firstname . Such as "Mister Dennis" or "Miss Dot" :D
I can't speak as an authority here, although I've lived a
LARGE part of my life living in the south, but it seems to me that
it was used when someone wasn't married, or was a very young
adult. It's a definite sign of respect, although the first name is
used.

[kenpo3631]

As far as the term "old man" is concerned....

Although it is used by some, I don't think those same people used that term in Mr. Parker's presence.

Unless that is....if you valued your body parts.....:rolleyes: :D

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by satans.barber
This calling people 'Sir' and 'Madam' all the time is culture independant; American people do it all the time.....


Well, you don't know much about American then...... lol..... this is NOT a common practice except in business circles and the deep South, but is considered common curtesy or good manners.



It's rare in Britain.


Hmmmmmmm, maybe in your area or circles it is not practiced but in my two trips over to England, I found everyone to be extremely respectful both the Kenpo group and everywhere we went to just sight see, the general culture was quite mannered and respectful including calling "us" tourists sir or madam which we obviously didn't require such as the taxi drivers to do. I found England in general very rich in traditional courtesy and manners except for the Cockney of course.



People should remember that before judging people outright.


No one is judging you outright, it is just a discussion that has diametrical points of view.

:asian:

[satans.barber]

Well, you don't know much about American then...... lol..... this is NOT a common practice except in business circles and the deep South, but is considered common curtesy or good manners.


I suppose that's what I get for believing TV/travel guides then! :)



Hmmmmmmm, maybe in your area or circles it is not practiced but in my two trips over to England, I found everyone to be extremely respectful both the Kenpo group and everywhere we went to just sight see, the general culture was quite mannered and respectful including calling "us" tourists sir or madam which we obviously didn't require such as the taxi drivers to do. I found England in general very rich in traditional courtesy and manners except for the Cockney of course.


Where did you go? I bet you didn't come to Yorkshire did you? Hehe, your loss :p

Cockneys are OK in small doses :rolleyes:

If you eve see an English person in a film that's predominantly not British though, they're usually either a cockney or somebody from the Home Counties (sic. Giles in Buffy, that's not what English people are like! hehe)

The culture in the North of England is very different to the South. I'll not get into that though, I'll end up offending someone! Suffice to say you were more likely to get called 'sir' down there than up here, a lot more likely!

Ian.

[Goldendragon7]

Yes, it was southern england and Jersey..... Exeter, Plymouth, Torquay, London. I didn't have the pleasure to travel up north yet but someday.

:asian: