backfist vs other simular techniques

[sweeper]

I was wondering about people's opinions on the back fist vs other simular techniques such as a reverse knife hand or hammerfist or even open palm. There are times when a backfist could be optimal but it seems to me more often than not one of these other techniques would be just as effective. My argument against the backfist would be that you run the risk of hurting your hand against someone's skull or other hard target like an elbo depending on the situation.

Obviously there are alot of situations where you don't run this risk and where a backfist is more optimal but I'm refering more to the use of the back fist in a boxing range against upperbody targets.

[Cthulhu]

I think the backfist is a good technique as long as you are very aware of the possibility for injury from most handstrikes to the head, very accurate with it, and immediately follow it with something else.

I almost never think of a backfist as a 'power shot'. I tend to use it for a quick shot to the nose, followed by more powerful blows. I use it that way, or as a feint. I only do spinning backfists when I'm goofing off.

It's just another tool in my bag, to use as I see fit :)

Cthulhu

[fissure]

I like the back fist as a quick attack to allow for a powerful follow up. It also covers ground well, when a forward "spring" is used. However at a shorter distance I like the reverse knife hand. The location of target area (side of the neck) and the already opened hand make for an easy grabbing/grappling continuation at the collar region.
:EG:

[karatekid1975]

I agree with Fissure. I tend to use (or used to in TSD) the ridge hand more than the backfist. But, like the backfist, you have to pick your target wisely so you don't hurt your hand.

[hand2handCombat]

the backhand isnt really used for an attack. its for protection. if u give a powerful hook and miss, giving the backhand will buy time to get back to position. if u wrap your hand good and keep it tight during the attack, it will not do serious, if any, damage

[fissure]

I must agree and dissagree with hand2handcombat.
A tight fist is an absolute must, combine this with the correct wrist allignment - that is straight , which will place the impact on the back of the traditional striking knukkles, and I have never hurt my hand.
As to the back fist not being an attacking movement, but rather a deffensive "time buying recovery move". Look into JKA style Shotokan compition- the back fist and lunging lead hand tsuki (s.p? - been saying tech. in Korean for a long time) seem to be the most common attacks used
:EG:
man I like that sadistic little grin!

[Kempojujutsu]

Originally posted by sweeper

I was wondering about people's opinions on the back fist vs other simular techniques such as a reverse knife hand or hammerfist or even open palm. There are times when a backfist could be optimal but it seems to me more often than not one of these other techniques would be just as effective. My argument against the backfist would be that you run the risk of hurting your hand against someone's skull or other hard target like an elbo depending on the situation.

Obviously there are alot of situations where you don't run this risk and where a backfist is more optimal but I'm refering more to the use of the back fist in a boxing range against upperbody targets.
That is way I prefer the hammer fist or forearm strike
Bob:D

[sweeper]

well I'm not simply refering to a properly executed back fist but rather the over all posability for injury. It seems like if your opponant were to turn their head just a little or move side to side just a little it could throw of your point of impact on both your hand and your opponant and you could sustain injury to the back of your hand, now I have never exectued a full force back hand bare fisted so I realy have no idea how easy it would be to hurt yourself, but from my experience with gloves on it seems like your fist doesn't always meat it's mark (as with any attack) and as a result it seems you could hurt yourself bare handed.

[Chiduce]

Well , since my martial system is strictly defensive in nature. The backfist is always used as a counter-striking motion in conjunction with a proper trapping/grappling motion, "twin motion", or prior blocking breaking motion. In this way the backfist can be executed at it's maximum effective range; which is in-close. In this way, the backfist can set-up finishing striking and throwing motions. It may also be used as a transformation motion to evolve in flight into a spear hand, eagles talon, tiger's clawing choke/strangle, inverted palm-up leopards fist/paw, or inverted palm-up ridge hand strike and as it's original striking motion used to transform into a side inverted neck pull (palm & elbow facing the attacker) for a smashing knee strike to the ribs at close range, etc,. A very typical backfist at close range easily sets up a downward clavicle and shoulder striking elbow motion. This methodology makes for very effective street applications which give rise to angling and horizontal backfist possibilities. Where returning and extending transformations can be more easily explored. Of course, the properly makiwara trained backfist is to which i'am referring!
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[Shinzu]

i often use the backfist as a "stunner" to catch your opponent off guard so you can deliver a more powerfull blow.

although if done correctly it can do some damage to soft areas on the body such as nose, neck, and groin areas.
in order not the hurt your hand you should be hitting with the back part of your first two knuckles, but it is very hard to do correctly all the time.

ridge hands are great but you have to watch out. if you over extend your elbow you can do more damage to yourself than your opponent.

i like hammer fists and bottom fists also. they can be really quick and they hurt more than they look like they do.

[arnisador]

I often interpret it as a back forearms strike/smash, or if I have an arm in the other hand I twist so the palm is out and use it to "stretch" my opponent out--not a strike exactly, more of an off-balancing. Otherwise I use it to feint/cover while I close, hoping to be bale to turn it into a grab of an arm used to block it. I don't think much of it as strike but I train it all the time with these variations in mind--it's a template for lots of other good things.

[theneuhauser]

out and down backfists, but not side to side. i find its better for your balance and also always brings the fist back in to a boxing ready position.

[sweeper]

so it doesn't seem like anyone realy uses it as a power technique or even a semi power technique?

[fissure]

In most instances, I don't think an MAer is going to be finishing anyone of with a backfist. I guess it could happen- but I'm not holding my breath.:EG:

[Mace]

I think before discrediting the use of a backfist, an examination of the move is needed. A backfist can generate a tremendous amount of power if done correctly and in the right instance.
What is the method of execution that most people use for this move? Is it a whipping flick? Is it thrusted? Does anyone graft methods like a hook punch? Drop your body weight with the strike? Use Torque with that?
I had probably known this move for about 15 years before my eyes were opened to its potential. It can be devastating, but the mechanics must be properly executed for the target that is being struck. It is also blindingly fast when ingrained into muscle memory.
Just an opinion,
Mace

[sweeper]

I'm aware of it's potential for power, a gloved backfist is a pritty dangerous weapon, but when you get power into it that's when my question comes into play, why not use a hammerfist ?

[Mace]

I missed the point of your question sweeper. I'll use a backfist when my hands are in a guard or mid tech and I want a quick weapon that I can graft execution methods with. I use it mainly with targeting the head. Otherwise I will use a hammerfist when targeting the body and keeping my elbow anchored. When targeting the head, I find that I can alter the backfists path if a target is moved in addition to getting a little more reach. I'll also use the same motion with a 2 finger whip, so I continually practice the backfist.
Hope that made sense,
Mace

[Kenpo Wolf]

Originally posted by Mace

I think before discrediting the use of a backfist, an examination of the move is needed. A backfist can generate a tremendous amount of power if done correctly and in the right instance.

It can be devastating, but the mechanics must be properly executed for the target that is being struck. It is also blindingly fast when ingrained into muscle memory.

I very much agree with Mace. When used with the right timing, it can be a very powerful move. That is one of the reasons it's been banned in boxing

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf

When used with the right timing, it can be a very powerful move. That is one of the reasons it's been banned in boxing

I thought it was because of the danger of breaking one's hand? The hammerfist is banned for a different reason--it's power and the difficulty of padding that part of the glove, I think. I oculd well be mistaken.

In kickboxing it seems to me one only ever sees the backfist as a spinning technique.

[sweeper]

yeah it's not illegal in mauy thai of kick boxing and it realy isn't used as a power blow in the ring except as a spinning finishing or counter.

well mace what I mean is what advantages do you see the back fist having over the hammerfist, and what disadvantages does the hammerfist have that would lead you to choose a backfist over the hammer fist? I realise there are physical situations where the hammer fist would not be effective due to body mechanics but I am reffering to a situation when either of them could be executed properly on the same angle. The disadvantage I have seen with the back fist is a slight turn of the (opponant's)head and your hand could land wrong injuring your hand.

[Mace]

Sweeper,
I will use a backfist when my hand is across my centerline near my opposite rib cage. So if my right hand is positioned by my left ribs, say checking on a vertical punch with the left, I'll use a backfist so that my hand can roll and I can pull with my lat and anchor my elbow. I'm not sure if you are in EPAK, but if you are then Alternating Maces is a prime example of this move. I use it from a forward bow to a neutral. Hope this helps.
Respectfully,
Mace

[sweeper]

I'm not in epak but I do know it's use, what I mean is what are the advantages of striking with the knuckles vs striking with the meat of your hand below the pinky.

[Mace]

Sweeper,
I find that the advantages of a backknuckle stem from positioning or point of origin of both the body and the weapon. If I do an inward elbow to the solar plexis I can follow up with a rolling back knuckle to the bridge of the nose. If I target the head, I find that when using the knuckles I can graft methods of execution, say from whipping to thrusting to hooking for power. I guess its tough to convey this through forums. The two weapons have there uses and functions and should be used in relation to the body's natural movements. Another good example of what you are asking is why do a horizontal punch instead of a vertical punch, or vice versa. Would you do a horizontal punch to the face of someone standing upright? I personally wouldn't, I would use a vertical. The horizontal at that height puts the shoulder out of its natural alignment, where as a vertical keeps the shoulder in its place so no power is lost. Does this help?
Respectfully,
Mace

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by sweeper

I'm not in epak but I do know it's use, what I mean is what are the advantages of striking with the knuckles vs striking with the meat of your hand below the pinky.

Well, striking with the meat of your hand below the pinky is just a hammerfist. Different strike, even though it can be delivered on the same line as a backfist.

Cthulhu

[sweeper]

thanks mace that answers my question : )

Cthulhu, that's exactly what I mean, what are the advantages one has over the other when executed on the same line.

[islandtime]

Originally posted by sweeper

I was wondering about people's opinions on the back fist vs other simular techniques such as a reverse knife hand or hammerfist or even open palm. There are times when a backfist could be optimal but it seems to me more often than not one of these other techniques would be just as effective. My argument against the backfist would be that you run the risk of hurting your hand against someone's skull or other hard target like an elbo depending on the situation.

Obviously there are alot of situations where you don't run this risk and where a backfist is more optimal but I'm refering more to the use of the back fist in a boxing range against upperbody targets.
.................................................. .......................
I am not sure how good a backfist is in a street situation as I don't remember using it in one, but:

In a tournament (point) situation the backfist can be a awesome point getter..
Going over guard and hitting with knuckles on the backfist can be a undisputed point .. Aiming for the area right under the eye is usually my favorite target because even if the head is moved some there is enough room for the strike to be good..

This is also a fine technique for closing the distance.. Properly done it will put you in range for the second technique in your series If the backfist fails it should open up a target for the following strike or kick.

Going over guard with this strike is is importand to cover your rib area as it is the prime area for a good counter.


Gene Gabel:asian:

[sweeper]

I think my "problem" with it is more preference than anything else. some of my freinds use it alot I guess I just don't have a taste for it. the only time I use it is as an inside strike to the face or groin on an outside slip, I use a hammerfist on a backward angle as a follow up from a hook or to set up a hook and a backfist could be used there I guess.

[Mace]

Hey Sweeper,
I'll definitely agree with you there. My preference is the hammerfist as well, but I will use a raking backknuckle to the nose to bust it on the way to a hammerfist to the ribs. It does have its uses, but I'd rather use a hammer.
Respectfully,
Mace

[sweeper]

well if posable I would rather go for a hammer to the neck or jaw than open my hand up to control the head.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by sweeper

well if posable I would rather go for a hammer to the neck or jaw than open my hand up to control the head.

Starting off with a backfist-type motion (possibly a forearm smash, possibly just a reach) then controlling the head is a favorite. It has the added benefit of briefly blocking their view.

Where the head goes, the body must follow--this is a big part of how I fight when I get in close. I'm big enough to get away with it.

[fissure]

From my first post in this thread:

at a shorter distance I like the reverse knife hand. The location of target area (side of the neck) and the already opened hand make for an easy grabbing/grappling continuation at the collar region.
From arnisador's last post:

Starting off with a backfist-type motion (possibly a forearm smash, possibly just a reach) then controlling the head is a favorite. It has the added benefit of briefly blocking their view.

Where the head goes, the body must follow--this is a big part of how I fight when I get in close
Around and around we go, until the circle closes;)

[arnisador]

I control higher than the collar though--up around the ears.

[fissure]

Ears do make nice little 'handles', don't they?:EG:

[sweeper]

it can go either way, if they are the same size as me I like to pull the head forward and out to work elbows or knees if they are taller I would go up and back to open up their mid section or alow flanking or a takedown.