Drugs in the dojo

[deadhand31]

I've had a personal experience with this, and I'm looking to find other's thoughts on this.

If a student who is at an assistant instructor rank is a drug user, should they be given a chance to clean up, or kicked out? What if they don't improve after their chance to clean up?


I feel that if a student, especially at the assistant instructor level is a drug user, they should get a chance to clean up. However, if they don't, and they can't represent the school's outward beliefs on the subject, that they should not be allowed to participate or teach.

I feel that a black belt is supposed to be a model for all other students. I want to be able to look at any of our school's black belts, and say "I would like to be like him. I am proud to call him a fellow student." However, if they're a drug user, that's not something I can say.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[theneuhauser]

one top student was caught with a large quantity of narcotics on him at the studio (no doubt for sale). he was immediately asked to leave. i agree with that.

any member of a school that is discovered to have a drug problem should be treated like a close family member. that person has a problem and should be encouraged by everyone to get help. not sent away, especially if the only person that is being hurt is themself.

[chufeng]

If the offender is a "first-time" offender (that is, first time caught), then I would give him ONE chance...and I'd let him/her know that the school/club (I) would stand behind him/her 100% if he/she sought rehab...

However, if the person involved failed rehab, I'd ask him/her to surrender the rank and move back to (in our system) brown belt (the person involved may choose to,leave the system voluntarily at that point)...all teaching responsibilities would be suspended...if the problem persisted, I would ask the individual to leave with the stipulation that he/she could return after a successful rehab...

If the same individual showed, up after a time, and had cleaned up...I would allow him/her back into the club...he/she would be on a probationary status for one year...if successful during that time, without relapse, rank lost would be reinstated...and part of the person's teaching responsibilities would be to share HOW he/she overcame the problem.

A VERY tough question...
On the one hand, you want the BEST instructors/associate instructors...on the other, you want to support those who have worked so hard to get where they are...But, the individual MUST realize that the problem is a PERSONAL responsibility...you will support any effort to get clean...but won't tolerate that kind of behavior in the club/school.

Dealers are OUT...PERIOD....

Thanks for asking this one...I had to puzzle on it a bit...

:asian:
chufeng

[sweeper]

I would say if ti doesn't show up in class, as in the person isn't intoxicated and doens't take anything to class than treat it like if a freind was using drugs, I don't think there should be any punishjment unless it comes to class, and than it should be delt with based on the symptoms. Sp if they are disrupting class I would probably want them suspended or kicked out, if they weren't but were lacking in ability than they shouldn't progress (and if their teaching is sufforing they should stop teaching, if their rank requires teaching they should be demoted to a rank that does not.). And yes it should be made clear to them that the school and it's teachers would help them anyway posable. If they are bringing drugs to school or are activly using drug at school than I would suggest a suspention, if they come to class intoxicated than I would suggest suspension, if they intend to sell it than they should be out. End of story. In my opinion there is a BIG diffrence between a drug user and a drug dealer.

[chufeng]

So what you're saying is, that you don't CARE if your friends use drugs???

Your friendship stands in the way of you trying to intervene on his/her behalf???

Rather they use and be happy with you than you confront and attempt to SAVE them from their sickness???


I'm sure I'm reading your post wrong, but it sounds as if you don't care as long as class isn't disrupted....

:confused:
chufeng

[GouRonin]

What a person does outside of class is not your concern. As long as it does not affect the class or the school. I bet there are people that use drugs (Alcohol is a drug you know) and you have no clue. When you start forcing people to act and behave like you feel they should then it's a cult issue. This isn't McCarthyism. You're not their parents.

Sure I care if my friends do drugs. If they do that's their business. I make sure I don't put myself in a position that it will affect me.

There is such a thing as personal responsibility. It's not up to you to save them. Did they ask you to? Why do you assume they need it?

There are many levels of drug use. What are you going to do? Start testing urine samples of the students?

Sure you can offer help. But if it's not making things in class bad and it's not affecting the school then really it's not an issue for the school.

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by chufeng

So what you're saying is, that you don't CARE if your friends use drugs???

Your friendship stands in the way of you trying to intervene on his/her behalf???

Rather they use and be happy with you than you confront and attempt to SAVE them from their sickness???


I'm sure I'm reading your post wrong, but it sounds as if you don't care as long as class isn't disrupted....

:confused:
chufeng Chufeng i think you make a darn good point here. Yes, we can say that in most dojo's that proper measures of some sort to wake the instructor/asst. instructor etc, too the realities of life as a responsible martial arts practioner, intsructor and mentor is end result. Yet, the horrible truth in the practice of martial arts whether, kung fu or karate is the their are many practicing alcoholic and drug addicted teachers, instructors, and masters, to add to this touchy undiscussed dilema. The Teachers, get their most trusted students high to teach them their personal style or some intricate part of their style. Many students train drunk and stoned beyond mental and physical ability. The students whom train in this manner which i have talked with feel that it is a sort of a right of passage into a selected elite group of practitioners. Their teachers a very well trained and well skilled in their respective styles. These so called chosen few are the new sifu, sensei, teacher inheritors of their Teacher's Style/s and founders of new styles etc,...! Some will change after they get their respective ranking and others will become addicted and never recover from the physical and mental damage. Remember, here that usually, these students are not the dojo students which train only on the assigned training days. These students are usually the ones which spend the most time with their instructor, learning new skills, techniques, special skills, and techniques which the teacher does not teach the other students in class. For this knowledge, the teacher makes them pay a rather extreme price. I can talk from experience in this area because i used to be one of those chosen few students!
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[chufeng]

Gou,

A teacher has a HUGE responsibility to his students...

The question wasn't whether a new guy off of the street is doing drugs...quite frankly, I'd bet 40% of the "new guys" are doing something...that is where our teaching can help set them straight...but the situation referenced in this discussion was about a junior black belt...if you've still got problems at that level, then YOU haven't done your job...period.

It isn't about how smooth class runs...
The senior students are family...
If you see them as a way to further your business, OhWell...don't expect any referrals from me...

NO, I don't expect everyone to pee in a cup...
No, I don't intend on patting people down as they come through the door...and No, I won't search people's lockers...BUT, if a problem surfaces and I IGNORE it...I may be helping to KILL the person I rely on to pass on the system....and it just ain't right.

Chiduce...I hear you...Peace brother.

:asian:
chufeng

[Danny]

Well said chufeng.

[chufeng]

Gou,

...and if you reread the original post...PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY was mentioned...

There is NOTHING in the post that suggests Big Brother tactics...

The original question referred to the assistant instructor with a KNOWN drug use problem....I think the post makes it clear that the responsibility lies with the user...but to suggest that, as long as the user can still teach effectively, it's not the school's business is ludicrous...

I'm sorry...I've read many of your posts and agree with some and disagree with some...on this one, I think a strong statement needed to be made...IMHO.

:asian:
chufeng

[girlychuks]

I know deadhand personally- and I know this situation personally as well.

First off- I would like to state that I believe he goes to an EXCELLENT studio- I have met his instructors and seen his school in action, as well as having the pleasure to spar some of their students. They run a darn tight ship in there and I admire their art and instruction.

That said, I think this instructor should have been kicked out LONG ago. Private drug use is one thing- l am for personal responsibility and am against drug testing.

However, this individual was soliciting and discussing drug use among junior members, including a relative of mine. IN THE STUDIO . In my eyes, this is unforgivable. Kids need a safe place to develop their character and be free from bad inlfluence- the dojo should be one of these places. Safe places are SO SO hard to find these days.

Deadhand, sweetness, I admire you for wanting to do something about this. I understand how upset you are and how conflicted you are- you always want to give your upper ranks the benefit of the doubt. But I think it is getting to the point where this person is hurting others and it needs to be addressed.

Think of the head instructor and how hard he has worked to make a good studio- the sad fact is that one of his trusted helpers is sabotaging his best efforts- and is betrayal not the utter death of a true martial artist??

Yours in Honor, Girlychuks

[fissure]

Wow!! When I first saw this thread, I assumed that it refered to performance inhancing drugs(which shouold not be allowed!).I find it hard to understand how any instructor could possibly allow a drug using student or (shaking with anger as I write the word) instructor in their dogang/dojo.To knowinglly place children in this person's presence is criminall

[deadhand31]

O-k... time to clear up some misconceptions......

1st, there was no solicitation or talk of drugs INSIDE the dojang. The person in question did talk to my little sis, a lower belt, about how they liked pot and how they wanted to get ahold of ecstasy. This was done outside of the school, but I still don't think there was ever an excuse for it.

2nd, I was hoping that I could get thoughts on the subject, not this scenario specifically. I don't want to do anything that might cause trouble within my school.

Next, I am the only one in my school who knows about the extremes that this person has taken, and their views on drugs, and they can be quoted as saying "Any reason is a good reason to do drugs." I find this is a terrible influence to have around kids, whether the situation is brought up or not. I did notify our instructor on the fact that she had a problem, and this person was given a chance to clean up. However, this person has flaunted thier chance, and decided that cleaning up is stupid. My instructor is unaware of this, and I am thinking that I might have to bring it to his attention once more.

Finally, my main concern is not with the assistant instructor. They had totally lost my respect a very long time ago, and may never get it back. My main concern is with the kids being taught, and what would happen if this person was busted. We have alot of fine young children who have benefitted greatly from our school's instruction, and if this weak-link would get busted, I know that the parents would be yanking their kids out left and right. If I were a parent, I would want my kid to be taught by people who mean what they teach when they say that they discourage the use of anything that would inhibit mental growth (it's in our student's creed).

That said, please don't judge my school solely based upon the behavior of one bad apple.

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by chufeng
A teacher has a HUGE responsibility to his students...


I agree. But that doesn't extend into their personal life. If the student asks you into their life then fine. Don't push your way in.


Originally posted by chufeng
The question wasn't whether a new guy off of the street is doing drugs...quite frankly, I'd bet 40% of the "new guys" are doing something...that is where our teaching can help set them straight...but the situation referenced in this discussion was about a junior black belt...if you've still got problems at that level, then YOU haven't done your job...period.

I thought your job was to teach them a martial art. I wasn't aware that you were teaching a way of life that people had to conform to.


Originally posted by chufeng
It isn't about how smooth class runs...
The senior students are family...
If you see them as a way to further your business, OhWell...don't expect any referrals from me...

I won't be asking for referrals. Family is family. My family isn't run like yours. It would depend on the family. If the person isn't killing people in his spare time or peddling drugs or doesn't come into the school under the influence and otherwise isn't affecting the school all you can do is to offer help. To force it on someone by kicking them out etc isn't going to do anything but salve your conscience.


Originally posted by chufeng
NO, I don't expect everyone to pee in a cup...
No, I don't intend on patting people down as they come through the door...and No, I won't search people's lockers...BUT, if a problem surfaces and I IGNORE it...I may be helping to KILL the person I rely on to pass on the system....and it just ain't right.

You said the main phrase, "If a problem surfaces." When it's a problem you deal with it. If you see something but it isn't a problem with the school, you offer help. You don't force it on someone. You can lead the horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I'm not asking you to agree with me and I can respect that you have your own opinion. I just don't agree with you. Well that's not true. I semi-agree with some of what you say but just not as deeply as you do I suppose.

We had this guy who tried selling to kids at the boxing club inthe freakin' stairway. Coach sent some guys down to "talk" with him. He left and never came back.

If he's selling to the students inside the studio then the guy needs a beating. If you're soliciting to them outside the studio the guy needs to be told to leave and not come back. Possible beating might ensure because you just want to. If the guy is doing things in his off time, it's not affecting anyone then it's no one's business.

My 2 cents.

[girlychuks]

Originally posted by deadhand31

O-k... time to clear up some misconceptions......

1st, there was no solicitation or talk of drugs INSIDE the dojang. The person in question did talk to my little sis, a lower belt, about how they liked pot and how they wanted to get ahold of ecstasy. This was done outside of the school, but I still don't think there was ever an excuse for it.

2nd, I was hoping that I could get thoughts on the subject, not this scenario specifically. I don't want to do anything that might cause trouble within my school.


Sorrysorrysorry. Didn't mean to shake it up, or point out your school specifically- this is why I kept all the details rather VAGUE.

You are just going to have to beat up onyour loudmouth little sis next time you see her.


And no one here is judging your school either. If i lived closer I would definitley study at your school.

*steps away from can of worms*

apologies:asian:

[deadhand31]

Well, Gou, I can understand where you're coming from. But I feel that when you tie a black belt around your waist, you have a heavy burden. I believe you should make sure that you're a person that would qualify as a role model. If you're a drug user, it's just like pulling an Iverson, letting people who look up to you down by your irresponsible behavior.

I do believe that there has to at least be a generalized guideline for the life that a person is to live. Such as no lawbreaking, no illegal drugs, and no using your art outside the school unless you're forced to. I really don't think asking that of a student is unreasonable.

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by deadhand31
Well, Gou, I can understand where you're coming from. But I feel that when you tie a black belt around your waist, you have a heavy burden. I believe you should make sure that you're a person that would qualify as a role model. If you're a drug user, it's just like pulling an Iverson, letting people who look up to you down by your irresponsible behavior.
I do believe that there has to at least be a generalized guideline for the life that a person is to live. Such as no lawbreaking, no illegal drugs, and no using your art outside the school unless you're forced to. I really don't think asking that of a student is unreasonable.

I can see the not breaking the law thing. Maybe a few others but just because someone does an art doesn't mean they should be a role model. People often say athlete's should be role models? Why? because they play a sport? Charles Barkley said it best. "I play basketball. That's my job. It's the job of a parent to be a role model for their kids. Not me."

I agree that there are general guidlines that should be followed. But too much is just being controlling and intrusive. Don't expect too much from people. When you put them on a pedestal it just makes it that much more distance to fall when mistakes are made. We're all human and eventually we all make mistakes. Don't set people up for failure with unreasonable expectations.

Having said that. If the guy is pushing drugs AT the school or even to students away from the school. Lay a beating on him or warn him once then beat his @ss.

[RCastillo]

Drugs have no business in our area. When I was coaching High School football, I saw the same thing, and it ruined the teams chances of going anywhere.

Drugs are rampent, as are anabolic steroids in ahtletics. It's getting more, and more prevelant.

It was said in an earlier posting that we (Instructors) have no jurisdiction in their personal life, well...........by the same token, I don't need the authorities watching me, or asking me questions. I have enough to worry about, w/o carrying someones elses baggage.

If they don't have the discipline to deal with it, I don't want you near me.

:asian:

[sweeper]

chufeng first off there weren't any specifics in the initial post, the intensity and nature of drug use wasn't stated.. drug use could mean anything from being drunk 24/7 to shooting crack to smoking the ocational joint, all very diffrent problems. I gave a genneral responce. However I think you have to respect people's privacy, first in your school, in my opinion most of the people are not your freinds or are not very good freinds, you are aquanted with them and probably on freindly terms but being a freind is much more than going to class with someone in my opinion, it implies a person relationship with the person, It may be diffrent for you but for my I don't realy interact with people in my class in any way other than through MA so I don't consider them freinds. I don't know them well enough and quite frankly there isn't much I cna do to affect their behavior, and even if I could unless their behavior was obviously self destructive I don't think it would be my place to force on them my opinion of drug use. In other words I don't see any reason why you should try to stop other's recreational drug use as long as their use is responsable. I don't think it is posable to "save" someone from drug use, drug use is an activity that is largly one commited by choice of the individual, now you can affect someone's decisions but if they want to do something they are going to do it. The problem is most people (at leaste most people I know) are well informed on the effects and dangers of drug use and accept the risks when using drugs, in other words there is no valid argument one could make against their use that doesn't parafraise what they already know, and in their judgement the argument is a poor one so what can you do? Also it seems that you think that drug use is an inherantly distructive activity, I would disagree with that perseption (wether it is yours or not) I don't think moderate drug use is nessisaraly a bad thing so I don't think there is much to save someone from and I don't think that you could in most cases even if there was. So as long as they do not attempt to make someone else do something they don't want to, and as long as someone else isn't trying to make them do something they don't want to I would not interfere. And in the case of a school as long as they aren't hurting the school than I don't think it's an issue.

I also think it's important to note that I'm not realy responding to the specific situation more to the genneral question of drug use in a school.

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by sweeper
drug use could mean anything ... being drunk 24/7

Hey, don't knock it till you've tried it.
:rofl:

[chufeng]

Gou,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, I even respect it.
But, you are clearly misreading my posts....

You stated: "If the student asks you into their life then fine. Don't push your way in."

Where in my post do I indicate that I am pushing my way into their personal life?

You also stated: "I thought your job was to teach them a martial art. I wasn't aware that you were teaching a way of life that people had to conform to."

In our system we do teach a way of life...but no-one has to CONFORM to anything...if you see martial arts as a job, hobby, sport, etc...then you are not walking in the footsteps of past masters of the various systems...martial arts is a way (Do/Tao).

You said: "If the person isn't killing people in his spare time or peddling drugs or doesn't come into the school under the influence and otherwise isn't affecting the school all you can do is to offer help. To force it on someone by kicking them out etc isn't going to do anything but salve your conscience."

All I suggested was supporting an effort at rehab...
As far as kicking someone out (I only suggested that for a dealer), you again didn't read very carefully...I said I would take away the right to instruct (and that might mean a demotion) but would allow him to stay on as a student until he was clean (but if the problem persisted would then ask him to leave)...that isn't forcing anything down anyone's throat...that is actually taking a stand for a belief and allowing the student/assistant instructor to make a choice (I'm sure you are familiar with the term consequences)..."What is more important, the drugs or the training?" Relativism (known as tolerance to the PC crowd) may be appropriate for some behaviors, but sometimes a stance has to be made...

You stated: "If he's selling to the students inside the studio then the guy needs a beating."

Nowhere in my post did I advocate battery...
I would offer, instead, a possible beating the next time he darkened the kwoon's door...then he would have fair warning...but realistically, the kwoon would be in jeopardy of a lawsuit and although emotionally rewarding, the beating might be the worst thing any instructor could do...losing a school is not worth the pleasure...and while I'm on the subject of lawsuits, do you think that a parent might sue the school if he/she learned that you knew of an assistant instructor's habit and did nothing...and the assistant instructor then somehow involved the parent's son or daughter in some kind of drug activity? Even if it was simply by implying that the behavior was acceptable?

One last thing: I work in a field where access to very potent drugs are available every day...I know where a habit may lead...the first indication one has of fentanyl abuse, for instance, is that the user is found dead in a bathroom stall...those who have been found out and successfully rehabilitated are eternally grateful...they literally believe that if they had not been "caught," they WOULD be dead today...and, as I said earlier, the black sash community within our system IS a family and to ignore a problem as significant as drug abuse SHOUTS out "I don't care..."
But the truth is, I do care...and so I speak out.

Peace

:asian:
chufeng

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by chufeng
Gou,
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, I even respect it.
But, you are clearly misreading my posts....

Ok, but after re-reading your posts it seems that i must have mis-understood. You have a stance but you flip flop around on how to enforce it and where. I suspect that it is a case-by-case thing for you.


Originally posted by chufeng
You stated: "If the student asks you into their life then fine. Don't push your way in."
Where in my post do I indicate that I am pushing my way into their personal life?

"...but to suggest that, as long as the user can still teach effectively, it's not the school's business is ludicrous..."

Sounded like you deny that a person can have any sort of addiction and still function. People do it all the time. I don't think that anyone's personal business is the schools until it affects the school.



Originally posted by chufeng
You also stated: "I thought your job was to teach them a martial art. I wasn't aware that you were teaching a way of life that people had to conform to."
In our system we do teach a way of life...but no-one has to CONFORM to anything...if you see martial arts as a job, hobby, sport, etc...then you are not walking in the footsteps of past masters of the various systems...martial arts is a way (Do/Tao).

If you see martial arts as a way of life then maybe you are not seeing that they were made as a war art. The way of life is secondary but so many people have flipped these concepts around.

Please don't start to tell me how a martial artists SHOULD be. These are your opinions. Not mine. Please don't tell me that you know the true footsteps of the past masters. You don't any more than I do. I'll walk my path and you walk yours but yours is no better than mine.


Originally posted by chufeng
You said: "If the person isn't killing people in his spare time or peddling drugs or doesn't come into the school under the influence and otherwise isn't affecting the school all you can do is to offer help. To force it on someone by kicking them out etc isn't going to do anything but salve your conscience."
All I suggested was supporting an effort at rehab...
As far as kicking someone out (I only suggested that for a dealer), you again didn't read very carefully...I said I would take away the right to instruct (and that might mean a demotion) but would allow him to stay on as a student until he was clean (but if the problem persisted would then ask him to leave)...that isn't forcing anything down anyone's throat...that is actually taking a stand for a belief and allowing the student/assistant instructor to make a choice (I'm sure you are familiar with the term consequences)..."What is more important, the drugs or the training?" Relativism (known as tolerance to the PC crowd) may be appropriate for some behaviors, but sometimes a stance has to be made...

Fine. I can see your point. But it's not my job to do anything more than teach an art if I chose to. You stated:


Originally posted by chufeng
but the situation referenced in this discussion was about a junior black belt...if you've still got problems at that level, then YOU haven't done your job...period.

Again, you're pushing your view of what a teacher's job at the Dojo is. It might be your view. Not others. My job is nothing when it comes to walking past those dojo doors. Maybe in your Kwoon it's different.


Originally posted by chufeng
You stated: "If he's selling to the students inside the studio then the guy needs a beating."
Nowhere in my post did I advocate battery...

Never said you did. I stated that.


Originally posted by chufeng
I would offer, instead, a possible beating the next time he darkened the kwoon's door...then he would have fair warning...but realistically, the kwoon would be in jeopardy of a lawsuit and although emotionally rewarding, the beating might be the worst thing any instructor could do...losing a school is not worth the pleasure...and while I'm on the subject of lawsuits, do you think that a parent might sue the school if he/she learned that you knew of an assistant instructor's habit and did nothing...and the assistant instructor then somehow involved the parent's son or daughter in some kind of drug activity? Even if it was simply by implying that the behavior was acceptable?

Until you knew there was a problem it didn't affect you now did it? When it affects you then you take action. This is all very dependant on you knowing what was going on. If we say you have a great instructor who smokes weed in his own house on his own time and you never knew yet one day you pop by and he's lighting up a joint an suddenly he's not allowed to teach or being demoted despite the fact that he is doing it in his own home?


Originally posted by chufeng
One last thing: I work in a field where access to very potent drugs are available every day...I know where a habit may lead...the first indication one has of fentanyl abuse, for instance, is that the user is found dead in a bathroom stall...those who have been found out and successfully rehabilitated are eternally grateful...they literally believe that if they had not been "caught," they WOULD be dead today...and, as I said earlier, the black sash community within our system IS a family and to ignore a problem as significant as drug abuse SHOUTS out "I don't care..."
But the truth is, I do care...and so I speak out.

You're not the only one who works in a drug environment. People are responsible for themselves. Not every user is suddenly greatful they are found out and rehabbed. Many get treated like dirt. Not everyone wants to stop. You're fooling yourself if you think that.

I can agree that you make your stand on what you will do when you are confronted. Just don't expect us all to line up behind you. Your world view is yours and you're welcome to it and I think you have the right to have it. In fact I support your right to have it. Just that not everyone's is the same so don't be surprised when it's not.

[chufeng]

Gou,

Then we agree to disagree...

For the record (this is for the general group of posters),

My art is a way...

I do expect instructors to hold to a certain standard...

Although I don't "know" what the old masters thought, I can read what they wrote; and, teaching was more than just a job to them, or they are liars...I don't think they were liars.

(and this is for you) As far as martial art vs. martial way...I practice a way...you practice an art...we will see things differently simply based on THAT difference in our approach to training/teaching...no hard feelings.

I am thankful that the people I work with are grateful when found out...if your experience is different, that is unfortunate...perhaps it has hardened your view, I don't know.

BTW, if I went to someone's private home and found them smoking marijuana, I would simply tell them to keep it quiet and out of the kwoon...with the warning that if it became a problem, I would have to take stiffer measures...but then each teacher would know that up front, anyways...I am not the Gistapo you seem to think I am...

I don't see in my posts where I thought my art was better than anyone else's...did you just put that in to rub my nose in it?...
If so, why?

I hold to the old maxim that the teacher points the way, the student walks the path...nowhere in our system do we try and change people's beliefs...nowhere in our system do we "shove things down the throats" of our students...

Hopefully future exchanges will be more cordial...but it does seem you like to argue, and then maybe that was your intent all along...to lure me into an argument...if so, you succeeded...but I'm tired of this one, so until next time...adieu

:asian:
chufeng

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by chufeng
Then we agree to disagree...

That's ok by me.


Originally posted by chufeng
(and this is for you) As far as martial art vs. martial way...I practice a way...you practice an art...we will see things differently simply based on THAT difference in our approach to training/teaching...no hard feelings.

No. You don't know what I practice. You assume. No hard feelings. I don't do what I do to make friends. I have enough of those. If I make friends it is a nice by product.


Originally posted by chufeng
anyways...I am not the Gistapo you seem to think I am...
I don't see in my posts where I thought my art was better than anyone else's...did you just put that in to rub my nose in it?...
If so, why?

I think we agreed to disagree. You missed my point or misunderstood it. But I did not say that I thought you said your art was better. I believe I said, "Please don't start to tell me how a martial artist SHOULD be. These are your opinions. Not mine. Please don't tell me that you know the true footsteps of the past masters. You don't any more than I do. I'll walk my path and you walk yours but yours is no better than mine."

Again, I'll say that I respect your point of view. As I stated before: "I can agree that you make your stand on what you will do when you are confronted. Just don't expect us all to line up behind you. Your world view is yours and you're welcome to it and I think you have the right to have it. In fact I support your right to have it. Just that not everyone's is the same so don't be surprised when it's not."

Cheers.

[chufeng]

I didn't say the following, you did:


"I thought your job was to teach them a martial art. I wasn't aware that you were teaching a way of life that people had to conform to."

"If you see martial arts as a way of life then maybe you are not seeing that they were made as a war art. The way of life is secondary but so many people have flipped these concepts around."

"Again, you're pushing your view of what a teacher's job at the Dojo is. It might be your view. Not others. My job is nothing when it comes to walking past those dojo doors."

I'm not surprised when people don't see the world through my eyes...I don't expect it and if I did I would be some kind of egomaniacal Napolean if that were the case...

You implied in your post that martial arts is NOT a way...that the way part is secondary...

...you are right I don't know what you practice, what you teach, or what you think...but if you do practice a "way," then you ARE playing Devil's advocate and are doing this because you LIKE to argue...if you don't practice a "way," then your posts are intentionally cryptic...

...and, FYI, (I don't want any confusion on this point) I did start martial arts because of an interest in the philosophies of Old China...my search was for a "way," the ass-kicking was secondary to my training (although I became quite good at it)...
Students come to our group for a variety of reasons...no one is forced into a "way" of anything...we teach the physical drills and forms...we teach nei gong and qi gong...we require students to research other arts and different philosophies...they come to their own conclusions...the above added only so assumptions aren't made...Our system offers a "way" it does not offer THE WAY...I don't think any system can offer THAT...

...BTW, I have a decent DitDaJow recipe if your interested...you'd need to purchase the herbs and alcohol and mix it yourself, but it is good stuff...

:asian:
chufeng

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by chufeng
...BTW, I have a decent DitDaJow recipe if your interested...you'd need to purchase the herbs and alcohol and mix it yourself, but it is good stuff...

My thanx. I may take you up on that.
:asian:

[tshadowchaser]

Chiduce,
I know this post is late in the thread but I agree with what you have said. I've been there and done that also with one instructor and knew of another school many years ago that was run that way. I thought times had changed maybe they have not.

AS for the disscussion in general. I dont want a student in class that is so drunk or high that he is dirsupting class. on the other hand maybe a "goooood" workout and some heavy sparing while he is in this condition might show him/her the error of comeing to class that way.
Takeing the student aside and asking if the student has any problems (general terms) and stateing that you have noticed a diffrence in the students behavior lately may bring a response.
A general disscussion of class rules to the whole class with the school policy being given on all subjects ( from sexual harresment to drugs/drinking, to helping clean floors and changing area is helpful. No one is singled out that way but everyone knows what is expected.
Shadow

[chufeng]

Gou,

If you really want the recipe, you will have to e-mail me at chufeng@earthlink.net

Send me your home address...the recipe is in Chinese so you'll have to take it (or mail it) to an herb seller (but there is no way to send it over the internet)...if you need a mail order herb source I can supply that, too.

:asian:
chufeng

[chufeng]

... and after reading your post again...

Where did I say I wanted to be friends????;)

I came here to see what people had to say...what I might learn...what I might offer...nothing more, nothing less...

Not posted to antagonize, only to clarify...

Peace

:asian:
chufeng

[Bujingodai]

I and my school have similar opinions as others. Some are recognized by law.
First off drug use is illegal, it's not recreational. If you smoke it your a loser. Point blank. Don't convince me otherwise.
In our school the class is a family, the instructors are guides. Patriarchs to some, not really by choice. In our school you are told no drugs will be consumed. No drinking on dojo time (unless a dojo function, I'm not dead) And while a student you will not willingly put yourself in trouble with the law. Image and Reputation and Honour is everything. 1 warning, absolute stop. Next time out. And it has been enforced in our school. It really sucks watching a good student over 2 years decimate because you want to stay out of his business. The trail they leave behind is beutiful. Obviously I have a personal issue with this one. But drugs have no place in the dojo. It is not a mattter of someones business.:soapbox:

[sweeper]

the statement that drug use is not recreational is incorrect.

go look up recreation in the dictionary, (I had transcribed the definition as well as the definition of recreate but explorer died when I hit the post button so I'm to anoyed to repost :-p) it means to refresh or to restore, it can mean either physicaly or mentaly, it doesn't matter if it's illegal or not it can still be recreation. now It may not be recreational for you but that's diffrent than simply not being recreational.

[deadhand31]

Either way, recreational or not, those who imbibe have no place in a school. I know we're not perfect, and people will succumb to addictions. First, I think the option should be made to help them. However, like the case with the bad apple, they don't want help, and they don't realize that they have a problem. If it's that bad, then they need a rude awakening to how much of a problem it is.

[Goldendragon7]

worse yet they may infect other students and drive off business.......

:soapbox:

[sweeper]

I would agree deahand just have this anoying compulsion to point out technicalities. :-p

[Shinzu]

drugs is unfortuately a big part of our society, but it has no place in my life or in the martial arts.

everyone in life makes mistakes and should be allowed to correct them. if they are willing to do so and have taken the right steps, then by all means they should be allowed to stay.
a martial arts family can have a bigger impact on someone who is travelling down the wrong path.

on the other hand, if things become out of control. proper measures should be taken. refuse the student from any training, and let them know that he/she is very close to being "kicked out" if things don't turn around.

talk to your students about this issue and inform them what is going on, and what you are doing to prevent it in your school.

the last thing you need is someone bringing your students down when they are there to build positive results.

[Nightingale]

If you are an instructor or assistant instructor, you must behave with the responsibility your rank and position requires, and that includes following the laws our society has laid down, even if you don't always agree with them. If you are using drugs, you are not being responsible and are not setting a good example, and should therefore surrender your rank and position until the time comes that you can respect yourself enough to reassume said rank and position.

For anyone in doubt... would you let a public school teacher who admittedly used drugs on a regular basis teach your child in a classroom? no? then don't let that person teach your child in a karate school either. A teacher is a teacher. They have a lot of influence on young minds, a lot more than most people think. A karate instructor is someone children look up to as an example, whether you intend to be or not, therefore, you have to behave accordingly.

Regarding pot or tobacco in my home: I have a sign above my doorbell: "Anyone caught smoking anything in this apartment will be considered 'on fire' and treated accordingly" my family and friends didn't take me seriously until my brother lit up a cigarette and I pulled out the super soaker. We haven't ever had a problem since.

Regarding pot or tobacco anywhere else: I don't care what you do as long as I don't have to breathe it. I like my lungs and I'd like to keep em, thanks. I love living in California. I can go to a bar and shoot a game of pool and not come home stinking of cigarettes.

Regarding anything harder than pot, anywhere: If I see it, I will report it, to your parents if you're underage, and to the cops if you're old enough to know better. End of discussion.

Just my $0.02...

Respectfully,

Nightingale

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
I have a sign above my doorbell:

"Anyone caught smoking anything in this apartment will be considered 'on fire' and treated accordingly"......

........my brother lit up a cigarette and I pulled out the super soaker!!

We haven't ever had a problem since.


ROFLMAO

I also have a NO SMOKE POLICY - I love the Super Soaker thing!!

:asian:

[Nightingale]

hehe. feel free to borrow the idea... I came up with it in college when I was the RA for a dorm of freshmen girls. The dorm had a strict no smoking policy that we were having trouble enforcing. We finally put up signs all over the dorm saying "Those smoking in this building will be considered on fire and treated accordingly" and started carrying around glasses of water whenever we went on rounds to check the building. After two or three soakings, the girls decided we were serious and took the cancer sticks outside.

[Goldendragon7]

but, I'm with you all the way!!

I HATE SMOKING!


:asian:

[Nightingale]

I don't care if someone else smokes. If they want to ruin their lungs, its their problem. However, I do care if I have to breathe it because they're standing somewhere near me and I can't move... like in line at disneyland or in the seats at Edison Field. I also don't like that i can't exit a movie theatre without walking through a cloud. For some reason, I guess, smokers can't smell the smoke as much as those of us that don't smoke can. My dad used to smoke, and he quit (because I was having breathing problems and my doctor told him to quit or move out, so he quit) and now when he smells stale smoke on someone he says "I can't believe I used to smell like that... I never noticed it"

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I HATE SMOKING!

Same here!

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
My dad used to smoke, and he quit (because I was having breathing problems and my doctor told him to quit or move out, so he quit) and now when he smells stale smoke on someone he says "I can't believe I used to smell like that... I never noticed it"

My father smoked most of his life.... He died in '97 from cancer. I don't like it....... and I'm once again totally with you...... I HATE BREATHING it too!! And that goes for ANY kind of smoke from any type of material!!

:asian:

[sweeper]

another point to make, if the instructor in question is/was training people for competition than I would argue that they shouldn't drink or smoke either, they obviously have very hash affects on your athletic ability and in my opinion an instructor or an assistant should lead by example.

[Shinzu]

the question i often ask is "why would you train to develop yourself, and then put something bad into it?"
that just totally defeats the purpose!

[sweeper]

another good point, would you say a black belt should have a sertain level of commitment to the art? if so would smoking show a lack of commitment to the optimisation of their fighting potential?

counter point being, Speaking relativly is the ocational smoke any worse for the body than a given level of physical training is good for the body? that is to say if smoking say 1 cigarete a day degrades your lung copacity (or rather your ability to extract oxogen from the air) as much as say running 1 mile a day would increase it, wouldn't smoking one cigarete a day be equivalant of not running 1 mile a day? (hope this made sence)

[Wertle]

that is to say if smoking say 1 cigarete a day degrades your lung copacity (or rather your ability to extract oxogen from the air) as much as say running 1 mile a day would increase it, wouldn't smoking one cigarete a day be equivalant of not running 1 mile a day? (hope this made sence)

I don't know if I'd really consider those two things to be equivelant. One of them would be adding a negative, the other subtracting a positive. It works in math terms, but I don't think in the example given.

Both of them are a choice, but one is choosing to do something damaging, while the other is choosing not to do something helpful. But choosing not to run isn't damaging your lungs, it's just not helping them get any better.

[sweeper]

by choosing to do something else besides running you choose not to improve your lungs. I realy don't see much of a diffrence. Both ways you see an other activity as more important than the pursuit of your martial potential.

[Nightingale]

choosing not to run doesn't cause lung cancer.
choosing to smoke one cigarette a day can.
exposing others to the smoke from your cigarette can give them cancer.

I've heard people say that second hand smoke doesn't cause cancer... tell that to Marisa, the seven year old girl I used to babysit. I don't babysit her anymore because she died five years ago today from lung cancer complicated by severe asthma because both her parents had a two pack a day habit. Her parents split up after her death. Her mother still smokes. Her father had to watch his child die to have a good enough reason to quit.


Please, folks, You have a right to smoke, but if you smoke, think about what you're doing. If you don't care enough about yourself to quit, think about the people around you.

The Great American Smokeout is the third thursday in November, every year. This year it falls on Nov 21st. If you smoke, please consider participating. If not for yourself, for your children, your family, your friends, or if you still need a reason, do it for Marisa.


respectfully,

Nightingale

-stepping off the soapbox-



PS. sorry. I'm a little emotional right now. I just got off the phone with Marisa's dad. He told me that his wife of a little more than a year is pregnant with their first child.

[sweeper]

you are missing the point, running and smoking are just examples, you could just replace them with variables if you wanted to. and although choosing not to run won't give you cancer smoking won't nessisaraly give you cancer and not running could lead to other health problems (if you arne't active enough that is). And the rate of cancer is reduced from second hand smoke but is still there, but I tihnk it's more common to get other side affects from inhailing particulate matter, things like asthma and various kinds of pneumonia.

[Shinzu]

makes perfect sence sweeper, but hard to answer. i dont smoke so i don't know what kind of effect it would have on me. i guess it would effect everyone differently.

some people who smoke outlive the ones who don't, but i'm not willing to take thoses odds.

[sweeper]

well the question realy is what should a school's requirments be for a black belt or coach regarding their physical health.

[Shinzu]

i would say that there needs to be a certain standard. if you can not or will not abide by those regulations, then you should not be allowed to represent the art or school.

i take my training very seriously, and i know that if i owned a school i would not want someone with these "bad" habits to represent me or my organization.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by sweeper

the statement that drug use is not recreational is incorrect.

it means to refresh or to restore, it can mean either physicaly or mentaly, it doesn't matter if it's illegal or not it can still be recreation. now It may not be recreational for you but that's diffrent than simply not being recreational.

If "Recreational" means,"to refresh or to restore", then drug usage, by its very nature cannot be recreational. Drugs destroy healthy cells. There is nothing refreshing or restoring about drug usage. Sure, they might make you happy for a short time, but in the long run they F*** you up, period!

I don't instruct yet, but when I have my own school, I will do as my instructor does. He makes it quite clear how he feels about certain subjects. You either conform or you are out! For us it is a matter of choice, I can either abide by his rules or I can train elsewhere. After all, when I acheive my black belt, I will be representing him and his school.

I do not wish to bear false witness!
--Dave :soapbox:

[deadhand31]

Originally posted by D.Cobb



If "Recreational" means,"to refresh or to restore", then drug usage, by its very nature cannot be recreational........ they F*** you up, period!



Very well said here, Cobb. In my school, in the end of every class, we recite a student's creed. The first stanza is "I will develop myself in a positive manner, and avoid anything that would reduce my mental growth or my physical health." Something such as tobacco, or anything stronger, pretty much fits in there. I just don't see how an assistant instructor, unpaid or paid, is able to say those lines despite drug use. I feel that a person who can't put forth an honest effort to make the recitation true doesn't have a place in the school, period.

Does this mean our black belts aren't allowed to smoke? Well... that's hard to say..... aside from the assistant in question, I can't recall seeing any of our black belts smoke.... guess it's a catching habit not to.


Personally, I'm wondering if I should make the instructor aware of what this assistant instructor is doing despite my instructor's warnings. Any suggestions?

[Nightingale]

If your head instructor isn't aware of what's going on, he has a right to know, because this person, by wearing his black belt and teaching in his studio, is representing your instructor and your instructor's good name.

[sweeper]

well the way I see it is it is obviously of concern to you otherwise you wouldn't have posted it, so yeah I think you should bring it up.


Recreation cvan refer to either physical or mental. People do all kindds of things that are considered recreation yet are dammaging, look at almost any contact sport, I would consider it recreational but after practice or a game you are beat to heck, alot of drugs don't f*** you up long term unless you REALY abuse them, I'm not saying ti's healthy and there is a big diffrence between recreational use and an addiction, all I'm saying is if someone finds it fun/entertaining or thinks it releaves stress than it is recreational.