kenpo blocking and phases

[cfr]

Here is my meager martial arts experiece:

6 months in a guys garage. All one on one lessons. Involved kickboxing, brazillian jui jutsu, jap jui jutsu, and judo. Very intense. Very untraditional. He moved away or I would still be there.

5 months of Hapkido. I liked the style itself. But it is a very plush, catering to preppies, not very intense school. (no, not even to the upper belts) I left due to its babying of students.

3 months Kenpo. At my particular Kenpo school, what originally attracted me was the intensity. The owner got her black belt under John Conway Sr. from Panorama City, Ca. a long time ago. She has trined with Ed Parker as well. She currently trains under Dan Inosanto in JKD. (I think thats it) The other head instructor used to do real fighting back before there were rules. (eye gouging, etc.) They also incorporate boxing and Wing Chun into the mix. I left due to a foot injury that Im still recovering from.

With all that said, I need to say that my questions are in no way intended to offend anyone. I know that Kenpo is a great art for lots of people. What Im trying to find out is if its the art for me.

1. Kenpo blocking. Basically Karate blocks. Inside, outside, upward and so on... Does anyone use these in a real fight? Having watched a few UFC's( Im aware that is not the end all be all of fighting or self defense) I never see these traditional blocks used when it counts. I have never sparred so I am unaware of if they are a realistic way to block in a real situation. Having talked to only one person who was in Kenpo for a while, he said that he never uses them in sparring. From what I have read "you fight how you train". If that is so, why train them if you wouldnt really use them? If this question is getting your blood boiling, please read the paragraph before this one. What is your take on them?

2. Phases of Kenpo. Ive read other posts that mentioned the three phases of Kenpo. Ideal, what if, and I forget what its called. ( Im sure some of you know) My question is how long to these phases take to achive. My goals for MA is self defense. Im not really interested in upholding tradtion, being a better me, or anything like that. I have spiritual practices to learn discipline and integrity. So what Im getting at is I want to learn fast. I want to learn to fight effectively in a short period of time. When my foot is better and I start training again, Kenpo is obviously on the possibilities list. But is it the type of art that takes several years to defend yourself with?
Other arts in my list of possibilities are attractive to me because of the speed at which they can *supposedly* get you able to adequately defend yourself. Whats your take on this?

Thanks to everyone for their input. And again, Im in no way trying to bash Kenpo. Just figure out if its for me.

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by cfr

Here is my meager martial arts experiece:

6 months in a guys garage. All one on one lessons. Involved kickboxing, brazillian jui jutsu, jap jui jutsu, and judo. Very intense. Very untraditional. He moved away or I would still be there.

5 months of Hapkido. I liked the style itself. But it is a very plush, catering to preppies, not very intense school. (no, not even to the upper belts) I left due to its babying of students.

3 months Kenpo. At my particular Kenpo school, what originally attracted me was the intensity. The owner got her black belt under John Conway Sr. from Panorama City, Ca. a long time ago. She has trined with Ed Parker as well. She currently trains under Dan Inosanto in JKD. (I think thats it) The other head instructor used to do real fighting back before there were rules. (eye gouging, etc.) They also incorporate boxing and Wing Chun into the mix. I left due to a foot injury that Im still recovering from.

With all that said, I need to say that my questions are in no way intended to offend anyone. I know that Kenpo is a great art for lots of people. What Im trying to find out is if its the art for me.

1. Kenpo blocking. Basically Karate blocks. Inside, outside, upward and so on... Does anyone use these in a real fight? Having watched a few UFC's( Im aware that is not the end all be all of fighting or self defense) I never see these traditional blocks used when it counts. I have never sparred so I am unaware of if they are a realistic way to block in a real situation. Having talked to only one person who was in Kenpo for a while, he said that he never uses them in sparring. From what I have read "you fight how you train". If that is so, why train them if you wouldnt really use them? If this question is getting your blood boiling, please read the paragraph before this one. What is your take on them?

2. Phases of Kenpo. Ive read other posts that mentioned the three phases of Kenpo. Ideal, what if, and I forget what its called. ( Im sure some of you know) My question is how long to these phases take to achive. My goals for MA is self defense. Im not really interested in upholding tradtion, being a better me, or anything like that. I have spiritual practices to learn discipline and integrity. So what Im getting at is I want to learn fast. I want to learn to fight effectively in a short period of time. When my foot is better and I start training again, Kenpo is obviously on the possibilities list. But is it the type of art that takes several years to defend yourself with?
Other arts in my list of possibilities are attractive to me because of the speed at which they can *supposedly* get you able to adequately defend yourself. Whats your take on this?

Thanks to everyone for their input. And again, Im in no way trying to bash Kenpo. Just figure out if its for me. Hello chris; I will attempt to answer your question (1) honestly and a little part of (2). Kenpo combines both circular and linear motion which can be used both separately or in combination. This not only includes strikes, but blocking also. In my kenpo system, our blocks are circular to set-up linear and circular combination striking, breaking, elbowing, kneeing, kicking and animal fist striking. So here the circular block and/or parry sets-up the strikes. Since we a strictly defensive system, this methodology works to our advantage as practitioners. The circular blocking motion can double as a strike also. As you can aready assume; my system of kenpo is not the American or EPAK system. Yet it's roots do lie within these 2 systems and beyond. The concept of blocking trap breaks, dislocations and manipulations in the trapping of the attacker's natural weapons (arms, legs, etc,) gives our system a unique look at the attacker's specific exposed vital and soft tissue target areas for the explosive counter-attack. Thus, it is not the point of what type of block that is used, for each block has it's ideal functioning situation. Yet, it is the adaptability and yieldability of the practitioner too each distinct unique attacking situation which determines what type of block or blocking combinations that will be used to set-up the defender's finishing motion/(s) in failing the attack! Now as far as question (2.) The last phase is the Formulation Phase; it will depend on what style of kenpo that is incorporating these 3 phases into their respective programs which will determine at what rank, point in training or practitioner skill developmental stage etc, that the last 2 phases will be examined. Since this 3 phase conceptuality is originally an American Kenpo EPAK conceptual method, it will be best to let one of them explain the rest to you. For information on my style of kenpo, please click on the www. next to my profile. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[rmcrobertson]

Dear cfr:

Why don't you simply buy a gun--and it's a real question, not a rhetorical one.

What you claim to want, if I'm reading your posts correctly--and I probably am, unless you're simply setting people up--is technology without responsibility. So why in the world should anybody help you acquire that?

Not only is it a violation of all sorts of principles in martial arts that are simultaneously practical (quick fixes don't work) and moral (if they did work, they'd almost always be wrong), but it isn't logical.

The logical end of technology without responsibility is a gun, a flame-thrower, a nuke. So why are you bothering to study martial arts at all, given that their essential spirit is antithetical to all that?

There's only one way out of this, and it contradicts your idea that you already have "spiritual practices," which you see as separate from martial arts. Don't separate them. Maybe--as for myself and many others--martial arts offer you something you can't get any other way.

So--either find a good teacher/school and stick with it, or buy into technology. Why waste your time with study?--a real question, incidentally.

Sincerely,
Dr. Edmund Teller

[cfr]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rmcrobertson

[B]Dear cfr:

What you claim to want, if I'm reading your posts correctly--and I probably am, unless you're simply setting people up--is technology without responsibility. So why in the world should anybody help you acquire that?

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Yes you are reading them incorrectly. What I am looking for is a self defense system that is realistic and easy to learn. I dont find that very strange. I dont want a gun. I like training. I just dont want to spend years of my life getting a false sense of security. I want to train in something realistic. Something that will work for me. Something I beleive in. Obviously I have some interest in Kenpo or I wouldnt bother to ask these questions.

[Doc]

"Realistic" AND "easy to learn." Why didn't you say so. I really hate to say this but, (I'm frowning) take the advice and buy a gun. Everybody wants to be a Navy Seal but nobody wants to get wet.

[Seig]

There are two main division of seals (Pinniped) -- the "eared" seals (Otariidae) and the "true" seals (Phocidae), which have no protruding ear. Members of both types are found in the far south. The "eared" seals have hairless hind flippers that can be brought under their body on land. They propel themselves in water with their long front flippers and on land they use these appendages to bound along, making them very agile. "True" seals have furred hind flippers that they use to swim, but on land they are dragged behind the body. They are clumsy and awkward out of the water, moving in "snakelike" undulations.

There are four truly Antarctic species of seals: the Weddell, the Ross, the Crabeater and the Leopard and two more that visit the continent, the Elephant and the Fur Seal. Of these, only the Fur Seal belongs to the Otariidae, or eared order. All Antarctic seals feed at sea using sonar (echolocation) and the enhanced sight of their large eyes. Each of the species feeds on a different diet, or in a different region, so there is little competition between them for resources.

Me, I don't wanna be a seal, they live in cold environments and have to eat raw fish all the time! YUCK :barf: No thanks!:rofl:

[matthewgreenland]

CFR - Mr. Parker used to say, "Quick to learn, quick to forget. Slow to learn, slow to forget." This quote seems to be quite fitting. I am going to lay it on the line and be blunt - since opening this thread, I think that you have really taken it on the chin, so to speak.

You are posing this question to a group of Kenpoists. I will say this about Kenpoists, if I speak out of line - brothers and sisters- tell me, but Kenpoists are individuals who spend a lot of time in training, refining, ananlyzing, conceptualizing, and studying motion. We don't know what a quick fix would be. To me, Kenpo is very addicive.

Your question, in a nut shell: can you quickly learn applicable street style self-defense in kenpo? Yes, you can; however, anything in life worth doing is worth doing right. The longer you stick with it the more proficient you'll become. Like working on computers - you didn't become a wiz in a day.

Based upon your training, It seems to me that you ought to spend more time investing in one particular art form rather than bouncing around. Or, do more research on the next art you want to work at. Bottom line- give it some time.

Ph.D.'s don't come in one night. Good martial artists aren't made with a few lessons. - One can't expect to take a few lessons, learn a few "tricks-of-the-trade and walk away feeling they could win any confrontation.

Don't be in such a hurry. Unless you have been threatened to meet BIG JOHN behind the water tower in a month for a fight - take your time to learn, i'll say that again, LEARN the art, the art of motion.

Hope I helped friend.

[Sigung86]

Actually, as I get older, I find I'm becoming more and more fond of the idea of a gun!:rofl:

Dan

[Robbo]

Kenpo is a brutal and a street effective art......but only if you study for it's spiritual side and for 20 years.

Come on people, you're being a little elitist don't you think. Just because the guy was honest and asked a couple of questions you start telling him that he's got to be in it for the long haul.

LOTS of people study MA for self defence reasons, are we supposed to turn these people away at our door because they can't commit to 20 years of study.

By answering his questions and showing him what he needs we may swell the Kenpo ranks by one. We sure are not going to get him interested by telling him to go and buy a gun.

There are lots of 'weekend' courses that deal with self defense from more of a awareness point rather than being proficient. If that's what is needed then start him off with that and then reinforce that technical proficiency comes with years of training.

Anyway enough of a rant,

Question 1)

The blocks (movements) of kenpo in their basic form are like a alphabet of motion. Think of learning to speak. First you hae to formulate words phoenetically. Words such as ca-at, ra-at, ba-at. This would be akin to the cocking the arm and then blocking with the arm (ideal phase). As you learn the alphabet more thouroughly and start to say the words properly, cat, rat, bat, you eliminate wasted motion and start to explore the true effectiveness of the blocks (movements), using point of origin blocking, hammering blocking, parrying, etc., in different situations (what if phase). Lastly when you have internalized the language of Kenpo (movment) you begin to form your own sentances (spontaneous phase). This is where you would tailor the blocks to the situation. You could say the cat ate the rat that was chased by the bat.

The preceding was loosly based on Mr. Parker's explanation of the three phases.


Having talked to only one person who was in Kenpo for a while, he said that he never uses them in sparring.

This guy is flat out WRONG. Does he just float around hitting people at will and not getting hit. Where do you think the blocks he uses in sparring came from?

The blocks may not resemble the original basic movement but they sure are based upon them just as all movement in Kenpo is built around the 'basics'.


2. Phases of Kenpo. Ive read other posts that mentioned the three phases of Kenpo. Ideal, what if, and I forget what its called.

I think what you are looking for is...

1) Ideal Phase - White - Blue 3 1/2-4 years
2) What if Phase - Blue - Black - 2 years
3) Spontaneous Phase - Black and up - still working on it

Keep in mind these phases are constantly beeing applied to new material.

Thanks,
Rob

[cfr]

Originally posted by matthewgreenland

CFR - Mr. Parker used to say, "Quick to learn, quick to forget. Slow to learn, slow to forget." This quote seems to be quite fitting. I am going to lay it on the line and be blunt - since opening this thread, I think that you have really taken it on the chin, so to speak.

You are posing this question to a group of Kenpoists. I will say this about Kenpoists, if I speak out of line - brothers and sisters- tell me, but Kenpoists are individuals who spend a lot of time in training, refining, ananlyzing, conceptualizing, and studying motion. We don't know what a quick fix would be. To me, Kenpo is very addicive.

Your question, in a nut shell: can you quickly learn applicable street style self-defense in kenpo? Yes, you can; however, anything in life worth doing is worth doing right. The longer you stick with it the more proficient you'll become. Like working on computers - you didn't become a wiz in a day.

Based upon your training, It seems to me that you ought to spend more time investing in one particular art form rather than bouncing around. Or, do more research on the next art you want to work at. Bottom line- give it some time.

Ph.D.'s don't come in one night. Good martial artists aren't made with a few lessons. - One can't expect to take a few lessons, learn a few "tricks-of-the-trade and walk away feeling they could win any confrontation.

Don't be in such a hurry. Unless you have been threatened to meet BIG JOHN behind the water tower in a month for a fight - take your time to learn, i'll say that again, LEARN the art, the art of motion.

Hope I helped friend.
Based upon your training, It seems to me that you ought to spend more time investing in one particular art form rather than bouncing around. Or, do more research on the next art you want to work at. Bottom line- give it some time.

[cfr]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by matthewgreenland

Based upon your training, It seems to me that you ought to spend more time investing in one particular art form rather than bouncing around. Or, do more research on the next art you want to work at. Bottom line- give it some time.

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Sorry for my other reply post that is completely twieked. Can someone tell me how to get the lite blue box around words when I quote somebody?

Anyways, I appreciate you response. I am attempting to avoid further bouncing around. Thats why Im asking these questions. If you'll note at the top of my original post, my first instructor moved. If he stayed in this state, I would still be there. My second school was giving its students(IMHO) the false sense of security I was trying to avoid. It took some time to realize that. Im still technically at my Kenpo school. I want to stick to something for a while. Thats the reason for my posts.

Again I appreciate your response. I just dont want people to think Im looking for a "quick fix". I think there is a big difference between a "quick fix" and a Martial Art that can be learned quickly.

[rmcrobertson]

I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe that there is such a thing as a martial art or a method of self-defense that can be learned quickly. I beleive that if you try this, you will fail when the crunch comes.

The basic reason is this: martial arts, and self defense, is about more than techniques and moves. The moves and techniques, the constant drilling, is there as a means to an end--it's there to get at the mind and the heart. So what are you training, in the end? Just the body?

So far, everybody I've seen who claimed they learned an effective art quickly already started out knowing things it took me years to learn. They were cops, or soldiers, or wrestlers...but they weren't really novices.

Kenpo's a great art. It takes a long time.

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson


So far, everybody I've seen who claimed they learned an effective art quickly already started out knowing things it took me years to learn. They were cops, or soldiers, or wrestlers...but they weren't really novices.

Kenpo's a great art. It takes a long time.

Well I have been all 3, I learned a lot of bad habits that I am still trying to break for EP Kenpo...........

And it is truly amazing when you reflect on it, and it does take a long time its still hard to grasp and control that sometimes ;)

I guess burger king always has the 30 second drive through thing for our instant gratification demands

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by brianhunter
I learned a lot of bad habits that I am still trying to break for EP Kenpo...........


What are some of those "bad habits" that you (and others of us) may have, that we need to work on?

:asian:

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



What are some of those "bad habits" that you (and others of us) may have, that we need to work on?

:asian:

I have horrible posture! (from wrestling head first I think) my stance was always my head and arms out over my body to stop shooting in on my legs, I lean in alot instead of staying errect, I have to really work on it while doing forms, self defence techniques etc.

in the army the self defence that we learned as infantry men was more like basic grappling and we did not go into alot of stance work or building power from stances.

When I went through the police academy alot of the self defense tacticsand weapon retention we learned where squaring off (I think due to panel shots through vests) and most of my continuing education we train the same way (too many officers die from panel shots through the ribs where they have no protection from a vest) So I think alot of training is being geared that way.

I guess the biggest thing for me is getting my body timing where it needs to be and posture, kenpo is a completely different way of moving, reacting, and being aware.

to make a long story short....


Posture, and footwork have been the hardest, Ive trained alot of upperbody arm movements without having to coordinate them to my lower body.

[Goldendragon7]

You brought up a lot of common issues with many today!! It always makes me think whenever I hear an officer of the law or an military man describe their training ....... that one would think today with all we have available ........ that the academy's would be much better at hand to hand...... especially when you NEED it as often as the police do!!

As Earl Pitts would say........ WAKE UP AMERICA!

:asian:

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

You brought up a lot of common issues with many today!! It always makes me think whenever I hear an officer of the law or an military man describe their training ....... that one would think today with all we have available ........ that the academy's would be much better at hand to hand...... especially when you NEED it as often as the police do!!

As Earl Pitts would say........ WAKE UP AMERICA!

:asian:


That is honestly why I have fallen in love with it....I have a smidgen of the system and it has GREATLY helped me, I talk about it so much to the other officers that they are tired of hearing about it Im sure, but when I have needed it, kenpo has gotten me out of it and I dont end up in situations half as bad as some of the other officers do, dirtbags can read you pretty well with no formal training they know who to go after and who not, they look for openings, kenpo helps close those. It would be awsome if someone could come up with a practical course of Kenpo for law enforcement officers but everyone is so liability and civil action scared that I dont think it will ever happen......

pray for our guys out there reguardless of what the media says some of us are still trying to do the right thing on the streets.

[Goldendragon7]

Sad but true.... I hear this same thing all over the country! They are afraid to teach the officers something extremely useful for fear that someone will abuse it like we see on TV every day with some officer getting caught on camera being a little heavy handed ....... but the flip side is what everyone does not see...... why was this guy in that salutation in the first place... Police don't just go around grabbing guys and throwing them up against a wall for nothing!!:shrug:

:asian:

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Sad but true.... I hear this same thing all over the country! They are afraid to teach the officers something extremely useful for fear that someone will abuse it like we see on TV every day with some officer getting caught on camera being a little heavy handed ....... but the flip side is what everyone does not see...... why was this guy in that salutation in the first place... Police don't just go around grabbing guys and throwing them up against a wall for nothing!!:shrug:

:asian:

Too Right Dennis,

A number of years ago I put together a "basic" self defense course for jailers/warders at one of our state prisons. Went and demonstrated, gave them the outline, course syllabus, etc. It was rejected as being "politically incorrect".

Which kind of makes me wonder why Robbo thought I was being sarcastic about the "Gun thing"! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan

[Goldendragon7]

Im at a loss!:confused:

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Sigung86



Too Right Dennis,

A number of years ago I put together a "basic" self defense course for jailers/warders at one of our state prisons. Went and demonstrated, gave them the outline, course syllabus, etc. It was rejected as being "politically incorrect".

Which kind of makes me wonder why Robbo thought I was being sarcastic about the "Gun thing"! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan


Sir,
I would love to see it! If you have it on a format you could email it or something. I think being politically correct is what has sold our country out time and time again in the recent years (Its getting bad when alot of us gen x guys think that way!) off subject...stay on target... stay on target......I would love to see what you had put together Mr Farmer

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Im at a loss!:confused:

Well you'd like to think America had its "wake up" call last year. Law Enforcement kicked into high gear and stopped ALOT of further things from happening all of us worked overtime and gave 110 percent...whether it was an 82 year old lady worried about her letter or a suspicious person hanging around a water plant American checked it out and did good, it seemed to last about 6 months untill the media ran out of al quida and terrorist stories then back to beating up America and its protectors in the media.
:soapbox:
Ill shut up now sorry got too off topic there

[Sigung86]

Actually Brian, you are nowhere near off subject. These types of subjects ought to be near and dear to the heart of every student of Kenpo.

You have to stand for something or you'll fall for just about anything. (Old tired, overused, but still true)...

Dan

[Robbo]

Which kind of makes me wonder why Robbo thought I was being sarcastic about the "Gun thing"!

I was just frustrated that the original poster asked some very valid questions and all he got for a reply was, get a gun if you're not prepared to study for a long, long time.

I just decided to answer his questions because nobody else in the thread seemed inclined to.

Thanks,
Rob

[Sigung86]

It's OK Robbo! Everyone has an opinion and you are certainly entitled to express yours. I think, and we were apparently wrong, that a lot of people saw his post as one of those slam dunkers. I also apologize.

Dan

ps: I wasn't kidding just a whole bunch. The older I get the more inclined I am to carry!

[WilliamTLear]

It is my expereince that when properly instructed & trained, a student comes away from his very first lesson with something of value added to his arsenal of self-defense tools. In which case, I can say yes, Kenpo is a system that you can pick up some useful self-defense material quickly. The refinement is what takes a long time.

I have been in MANY, very real, do or die altercations... and most of them happened when I was an Orange Belt - Blue Belt. Did I do perfect Kenpo when defending myself...? Probably not, but Kenpo (perfect or not) SAVED MY ASS!!!

Pick up what you can, short term... that's alright...
Just remember that through refinement, you are always learning... and that is where I apply this saying...

Fast to learn, fast to forget... Slow to learn, slow to forget.

Learn as much as you can at your own pace, but refine your art over a long period of time and you will definately reap the benefits of doing so.

I hope this helps,
Billy Lear

P.S. Pace yourself, and know your limitations. You want to retain information after you learn it.

[cfr]

If I may interject here, again Im just trying to figure out if Kenpo is for me or not. Lets face it, not everyone is going to agree with the die hard Kenpo fans. I have also asked some Muay Thai questions in other post sections. According to them, MT is the only way to go. Everything else is useless. (except maybe some BJJ for ground) I really dont see myself in that light. What both of those styles claim is that they are learned quickly. Im aware of all the countless scenarios outside of an NHB competition that these two styles would not be adequate for, but quickly learned is attractive to me. Just for the record, I have every intention of being in some style or another for a very long time. I love training and am highly annoyed that I cant do it right now do to my foot. I am not happy that Ive already been in 3 styles and am trying to avoid any more switches. But, if Kenpo isnt for me, I would rather figure that out sooner than later.

[Sigung86]

cfr,

Straight up word Bro! You can talk to everyone and get all the differing opinions and wisdom in the world, but if you don't get in the water, you'll never learn how to swim.

Dan

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by cfr
I am not happy that I've already been in 3 styles and am trying to avoid any more switches.


the proper instructor in Kenpo you will not be disappointed. MT and many others can be great however, many do not have the material and longevity that American Kenpo does in the long run.

:asian:

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by cfr

If I may interject here, again Im just trying to figure out if Kenpo is for me or not. Lets face it, not everyone is going to agree with the die hard Kenpo fans. I have also asked some Muay Thai questions in other post sections. According to them, MT is the only way to go. Everything else is useless. (except maybe some BJJ for ground) I really dont see myself in that light. What both of those styles claim is that they are learned quickly. Im aware of all the countless scenarios outside of an NHB competition that these two styles would not be adequate for, but quickly learned is attractive to me. Just for the record, I have every intention of being in some style or another for a very long time. I love training and am highly annoyed that I cant do it right now do to my foot. I am not happy that Ive already been in 3 styles and am trying to avoid any more switches. But, if Kenpo isnt for me, I would rather figure that out sooner than later.

What do you want to hear? I posted an answer to your question, and you're interjecting? Didn't you say that you want to learn a system that you can pick-up fast, but that you have every intention of sticking with it for a very long time? Didn't I say that Kenpo is easy to learn (and effective), but that there is always something to refine (possibly, for many years to come)?

Granted, I don't know you... and I don't have a firm grasp of how well you retain information, but if your analysis of my post is any indication as to how dedicated you are to LEARNING anything... Then go do Tae Bo, or better yet... BUY A GUN like Robertson said. :shrug:

[Doc]

I can solve this real easy. Get off your butt and go visit some schools. We don't have the answers you want.

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Doc

I can solve this real easy. Get off your butt and go visit some schools. We don't have the answers you want.


To be honest I think CFR does this every thread he starts (go back and look)..it goes in stages...he give his training speal, what hes NOT wanting to do, why you should convince him or answer him about it, then complains because nobody gave the answer he wants. When in fact if you go back and look several very experienced people have addressed the issue in depth. Makes me wonder if he is in fact wanting to be a kenpoist or if his intent is to cause strife.

[cfr]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear



What do you want to hear? I posted an answer to your question, and you're interjecting? Didn't you say that you want to learn a system that you can pick-up fast, but that you have every intention of sticking with it for a very long time? Didn't I say that Kenpo is easy to learn (and effective), but that there is always something to refine (possibly, for many years to come)?

Granted, I don't know you... and I don't have a firm grasp of how well you retain information, but if your analysis of my post is any indication as to how dedicated you are to LEARNING anything... Then go do Tae Bo, or better yet... BUY A GUN like Robertson said. :shrug:


Did I say your answer wasnt what I wanted to hear? That might be what you read, but thats not what I wrote. What I attempted to do with my totally out of line interjection was to clarify why I am wondering what Im wondering. Everyone seems to think that I want a "quick fix" and I was attempting to (purely for lack of better words) compare to another style that its practitioners boast how quickly is learned. I did read what you said. It was helpful. I did reatin it. I just thought an idea of the angle I was looking at it from may be helpful. In the future, I will make it part of my original post and not dare interject.

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Originally posted by brianhunter




To be honest I think CFR does this every thread he starts (go back and look)..it goes in stages...he give his training speal, what hes NOT wanting to do, why you should convince him or answer him about it, then complains because nobody gave the answer he wants. When in fact if you go back and look several very experienced people have addressed the issue in depth. Makes me wonder if he is in fact wanting to be a kenpoist or if his intent is to cause strife.


My speal and what I am not wanting to do are exactly that. I am not wanting to appear to have all the answers based on my VERY small amount of experience. I am not wanting to offend anyone based on questioning their style and beliefs. I really dont see where anyone got my complaininig about getting the right answers from as indicated in my reply to WilliamTLear. You are absolutely correct, Im not sure I want to be a Kenpoist. I dont think you are on to anything new with this one. I thought I had made that very clear in my post. Im trying to figure out if Kenpo is for me or not. Again, Im pretty sure I made this clear. But to cause strife? Come on? My life is really good and full and Ive got better stuff to do than try to figure out how to push the buttons of Kenpoists.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both of your insults remind me of a few threads Ive read in an Muay Thai forum. He retaliated and it went on for months. However, I believe that sometimes the best way to end conflict is not to retaliate to it, but to end it. So, my most humble apologies if I have offended you or your style. I never intended to do that or to just get a rise out of you. I have stated my goal several times in an attempt to avoid this. I am sorry if I have indicated in any way that my intentions were for bad motives. Have a great Sunday.

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by cfr




My speal and what I am not wanting to do are exactly that. I am not wanting to appear to have all the answers based on my VERY small amount of experience. I am not wanting to offend anyone based on questioning their style and beliefs. I really dont see where anyone got my complaininig about getting the right answers from as indicated in my reply to WilliamTLear. You are absolutely correct, Im not sure I want to be a Kenpoist. I dont think you are on to anything new with this one. I thought I had made that very clear in my post. Im trying to figure out if Kenpo is for me or not. Again, Im pretty sure I made this clear. But to cause strife? Come on? My life is really good and full and Ive got better stuff to do than try to figure out how to push the buttons of Kenpoists.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both of your insults remind me of a few threads Ive read in an Muay Thai forum. He retaliated and it went on for months. However, I believe that sometimes the best way to end conflict is not to retaliate to it, but to end it. So, my most humble apologies if I have offended you or your style. I never intended to do that or to just get a rise out of you. I have stated my goal several times in an attempt to avoid this. I am sorry if I have indicated in any way that my intentions were for bad motives. Have a great Sunday.


It doesn't look to me like Brian was stating that he was offended, he just merely stated how each thread ends up turning out. All of these guys try to answer the questions based on their knowledge and experience, but it never seems good enough. Maybe you do need to say exactly what you are thinking up front so that they can approach the subject better.

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Sigung86

Actually Brian, you are nowhere near off subject. These types of subjects ought to be near and dear to the heart of every student of Kenpo.

You have to stand for something or you'll fall for just about anything. (Old tired, overused, but still true)...

Dan

I know that song...LOL.

[fanged_seamus]

Hey CFR,

Just a couple of thoughts to add to this mess of a thread...hope you don't mind.

ON BLOCKING:

Yes, many of the blocks are "traditional" blocks and rarely used in UFC tournaments. However, these blocks are not the sole defenses in kenpo. Parries seem much more common, as are slipping punches, evading, etc. In sparring (the few times I've done it), traditional inward and outward blocks are absent. Parries and evasion definitely seem to be preferred. These defense techniques are learned later, as it takes more skill to successfully execute a parry or evade a punch.

That said, sparring is NOT the same thing as self-defense. Sparring is a rule-heavy version of tag. To paraphrase the author Neal Stephenson, "[It] is an attempt to take a violent, chaotic confrontation and make it into a cute game." Don't ever confuse the two.



ON SELF-DEFENSE:

I say this constantly on these threads -- 90% of self-defense is the awareness and foresight not to get yourself into trouble. You need to avoid dangerous situations, talk your way out of problems, and learn to diffuse tense situations. If you really want to learn self-defense, whatever system you study should spend time on these subjects. If they are not discussing these subjects, they are NOT doing you the service of improving you ability to defend yourself. They are simply a glorified gym class.

For times when a confrontation is inevitable, that's when the training comes in. And there, the only thing you can do is find the right system for you. I chose kenpo because I learned some very practical and strong methods to physically defend myself quickly. The philosophy is what I was looking for. My instructors stress the idea of walking away over fighting. Kenpo is for me, it turns out.

Kenpo has some holes in it, but so do Muay Thai and BJJ. In fact, EVERY art and system has its strong points and weak points. Anyone who says otherwise is lying. Don't kid yourself that just because a system is agressive or popular it is the best for self-defense -- and NEVER believe someone who tells you there art's primary purpose is self-defense -- every martial arts instructor will say that, even the ones whose primary goal is teaching kids to win sport-fighting tournaments. Unless the system spends significant time covering the verbal, mental, and environmental aspects of self-defense, it is not doing you justice.

I think that you should sit down and figure out what self-defense REALLY means to you (even if it is as basic as learning to punch and kick hard, learning to wrestle, or learning how to quickly run away). Once you know what self-defense means to you, then go looking for your system. Otherwise you're just spinning your wheels (as some of these threads show)....

Hope this helps!

Tad Finnegan

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by fanged_seamus

In sparring (the few times I've done it), traditional inward and outward blocks are absent. Parries and evasion definitely seem to be preferred. These defense techniques are learned later, as it takes more skill to successfully execute a parry or evade a punch.


Depends on the kind of sparring for me...

If it's light sparring, I would tend to use parries more, but sometimes you get the odd idiot who decides it'd be fun to take your head off (usually lower belts who think that they can try to beat on the higher belts a bit more, regardless of whether or not they've got 5" and 2 stones on you...!), and a few heavy inwards blocks to the forearms can make them think twice. Parries are faster, but they lack the sting that can be needed in these situations!

Also, don't underestimate the effectiveness of the kung fu style 'waiter's block' (palm up, blocking with the back of the wrist), this is very easily turned into a grab, or you can just use it to throw their arm down towards their leg and then shuffle in with a jab maybe (you can pin the arm with you other hand if you're feeling a bit wing chun). Doesn't work as well if people have very fast hands though, it really is a sparring thing rather than a street thing, as Tad said a division has to be drawn!

Personally though, I don't think there's anything wrong with a bit of sparring that's not akin to street brawling, after all, it's better exercise, more fun, less dangerous and you often learn more. As long as we practice for the street in tandem (some arts only seem to spar...) then there's no harm in it ;)

Ian.

[Doc]

Originally posted by fanged_seamus

Hey CFR,

Just a couple of thoughts to add to this mess of a thread...hope you don't mind.

ON BLOCKING:

Yes, many of the blocks are "traditional" blocks and rarely used in UFC tournaments. However, these blocks are not the sole defenses in kenpo. Parries seem much more common, as are slipping punches, evading, etc. In sparring (the few times I've done it), traditional inward and outward blocks are absent. Parries and evasion definitely seem to be preferred. These defense techniques are learned later, as it takes more skill to successfully execute a parry or evade a punch.

That said, sparring is NOT the same thing as self-defense. Sparring is a rule-heavy version of tag. To paraphrase the author Neal Stephenson, "[It] is an attempt to take a violent, chaotic confrontation and make it into a cute game." Don't ever confuse the two.



ON SELF-DEFENSE:

I say this constantly on these threads -- 90% of self-defense is the awareness and foresight not to get yourself into trouble. You need to avoid dangerous situations, talk your way out of problems, and learn to diffuse tense situations. If you really want to learn self-defense, whatever system you study should spend time on these subjects. If they are not discussing these subjects, they are NOT doing you the service of improving you ability to defend yourself. They are simply a glorified gym class.

For times when a confrontation is inevitable, that's when the training comes in. And there, the only thing you can do is find the right system for you. I chose kenpo because I learned some very practical and strong methods to physically defend myself quickly. The philosophy is what I was looking for. My instructors stress the idea of walking away over fighting. Kenpo is for me, it turns out.

Kenpo has some holes in it, but so do Muay Thai and BJJ. In fact, EVERY art and system has its strong points and weak points. Anyone who says otherwise is lying. Don't kid yourself that just because a system is agressive or popular it is the best for self-defense -- and NEVER believe someone who tells you there art's primary purpose is self-defense -- every martial arts instructor will say that, even the ones whose primary goal is teaching kids to win sport-fighting tournaments. Unless the system spends significant time covering the verbal, mental, and environmental aspects of self-defense, it is not doing you justice.

I think that you should sit down and figure out what self-defense REALLY means to you (even if it is as basic as learning to punch and kick hard, learning to wrestle, or learning how to quickly run away). Once you know what self-defense means to you, then go looking for your system. Otherwise you're just spinning your wheels (as some of these threads show)....

Hope this helps!

Tad Finnegan

Mr. Finnegan,

I applaud your wisdom, but even more so, your patience.

[rmcrobertson]

Um...ah..two things.

First off, I'm sorry if I was rude. I really am. But I have to say that I also really believe that what you're asking for is impossible: there is no short cut to a martial art, no maatter what it is, and anybody who says that there is...well.
I stand by my earlier posts with regard to the reason: when you train, the techniques are only a means to an end, and that end is necessarily a long time coming.

Second off, there is no way to know for sure, at the outset, that an art--any art--is for you. I hate to put it quite this way, but you have to take some things on faith for a while. Unfortunately, this always means a leap in the dark, and there are lots of folks out there who are ready, willing and able to take advantage of your trust. It's all very well to think that you'll just figure matters out intellectually and make a fully-reasoned decision--but nope, no way. Among other things, anyplace you train that's any good will demand a lot out of you physsically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually even--and there is a part of you, as there is a part of me, that doesn't want to get better. One of its ruses, its defense mechanisms, its way of maintaining what Freud called, "the compulsion to repeat," is to insinuate that this here art just ain't practical and quick enough.

I agree with others. Find a good teacher. Take the chance. Hope for the best. And, sweat your socks off.

Thanks.

[Doc]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

Um...ah..two things.

First off, I'm sorry if I was rude. I really am. But I have to say that I also really believe that what you're asking for is impossible: there is no short cut to a martial art, no maatter what it is, and anybody who says that there is...well.
I stand by my earlier posts with regard to the reason: when you train, the techniques are only a means to an end, and that end is necessarily a long time coming.

Second off, there is no way to know for sure, at the outset, that an art--any art--is for you. I hate to put it quite this way, but you have to take some things on faith for a while. Unfortunately, this always means a leap in the dark, and there are lots of folks out there who are ready, willing and able to take advantage of your trust. It's all very well to think that you'll just figure matters out intellectually and make a fully-reasoned decision--but nope, no way. Among other things, anyplace you train that's any good will demand a lot out of you physsically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually even--and there is a part of you, as there is a part of me, that doesn't want to get better. One of its ruses, its defense mechanisms, its way of maintaining what Freud called, "the compulsion to repeat," is to insinuate that this here art just ain't practical and quick enough.

I agree with others. Find a good teacher. Take the chance. Hope for the best. And, sweat your socks off.

Thanks.

Clearly you have a level of patience as well. Ed parker used to call people of this type "Lookie Loos." They have a thousand questions, and for every answer you give him he has a "but," another question, and an uneducated opinion. Ed Parker said the best way to deal with a Lookey Loo is to make him pay for the priveledge.

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Doc

Ed Parker said the best way to deal with a Lookey Loo is to make him pay for the priveledge.

<cynical>

Wow, go go the seeds of capitalism!

I wonder what Ed would have made of the Internet, all this knowledge for free... :)

So many questions, so little profit!

</cynical>

Ian.

[cfr]

Originally posted by Doc



Clearly you have a level of patience as well. Ed parker used to call people of this type "Lookie Loos." They have a thousand questions, and for every answer you give him he has a "but," another question, and an uneducated opinion.


Im curious as to why you would call me a Lookie Loo. Im also curious as to why you would tell me to go visit schools. If you read my original post, you would see Ive been to a Kenpo school. (of course it was very limited) I left due to an injury. Precisely what uneducated opinion have I thrown out there. I really dont recall giving one. I thuoght I had asked too many questions. But now Ive also given out opinions as well. Please point this out to me.

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by cfr



Im curious as to why you would call me a Lookie Loo. Im also curious as to why you would tell me to go visit schools. If you read my original post, you would see Ive been to a Kenpo school. (of course it was very limited) I left due to an injury. Precisely what uneducated opinion have I thrown out there. I really dont recall giving one. I thuoght I had asked too many questions. But now Ive also given out opinions as well. Please point this out to me.


it's a trick! Get an axe!


Ash-
Army of Darkness

[Doc]

Ed Parker was the most generous man I knew. he would go anywhere anytime to talk "kenpo" with people. I remember going to different high schools that had clubs with 5 or 6 guys and he would stay for hours talking and answering questions, but he wanted the conversation to be productive. He was a professional, and when you came to him and into his business and asked advice he expected you to listen. A lookey loo to him was a guy who spent a month here and there trying to make up his mind about something he doesn't understand. It's a paradox. Sometimes you just gotta jump in and stay. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes not. Comparing arts is not telling you anything but about the art. Ultimately it's the instructor you have to bond with. A lousy instructor in a good art gets you nothing. The only way you're going to find your instructor is to go look.

If you went into an auto mechanics shop and bambarded him with question after question and no matter what he said you just re-phrase the question, sooner or later the guy is going to say, "You want your car fixed or not?"

Some of the guys here have been really nice to you and taken their time to really give some good detailed advice. Apparently you have done this at other sites too with other arts but you simply ask the same questions over again with a different spin. In my mind there are some people you just can't satisfy no matter how you try in this medium. I suggest you go back to getting your information from personal contact where you can express yourself better and an instructor can "demonstrate" his answers to your satisfaction.

These forums have a limiteed capability to convey information to the novice and experienced alike. Good luck in your "quest?" And please, I have no desire for a reply.

[kenpo3631]

in the army the self defence that we learned as infantry men was more like basic grappling and we did not go into alot of stance work or building power from stances.

I totally agree...

At basic training they teach you a "hard stylist" approach to self defense. "I'd rather have my arm broken than my head" was a quote of one of my drill sergeants while demonstrating a "rising block"....:rofl:

I was affectionately known as Hong Kong Fooey during the H2H portion of basic training. However I later was pulled aside by one of my drills and told to stop "doing what I was doing".

The problem that the H2H course in basic training poses is that it, "teaches you just enough to get killed". The concepts conveyed in the course of instuction are down right dangerous. Target and weapon matches that could seriously get you hurt while trying to save your life.

All in all I think it stems from the Army mentality of what we all have heard from our parents at one time or another "Because I said so." I must agree with Dennis, "Wake up America!":asian:

[Goldendragon7]

go to: www.earlpitts.com
:rofl:

go to audio archives.......:D

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

go to: www.earlpitts.com
:rofl:

go to audio archives.......:D

You know what makes me sick? You know what makes me so angry I just wanna...........


Earl Pitts is awsome, he has economy of common sense down to an art ;)

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by brianhunter
Earl Pitts is awsome, he has economy of common sense down to an art ;)

He's a kick.... I load up winmx.com and download many of his rants......

:rofl:
:asian: