Pal-Gue 3 (Sam Jang) Questions

[IcemanSK]

For you "Old School" TKD folks who know the form. There are a series of middle section blocks (mostly going backward) in the middle of the form. I have 2 books. One (the "official" WTF book) says, "It's an inside forearm block." G/M Kim Soo's older book says, It's an outside forearm block."

I've never done the form, so I don't know. Please enlighten me.:)

[Laborn]

Is that the form that starts with a left walking stance, front kick into a foward stance, double punch? lol you misspelled some of it i think..so im not sure.

[Martial Tucker]

Is that the form that starts with a left walking stance, front kick into a foward stance, double punch? lol you misspelled some of it i think..so im not sure.
That would be the Taeguk 3/Sam Jang.

The Palgue form (as I was taught) has both inside and outside blocks in succession in the segment questioned. I like to use north/south/east/west terminology to desrcibe movement direction. So, for the segment in question, you have just completed a double-knife-hand block to the "west". You turn south in a back stance/outside block, and immediately/on the same count, pivot north and complete another outside block. Then, you step backward (south, but facing north) in a backstance/inside block. Step back (south/facing north) again in backstance/inside block.
Then step back (south/facing north) one more time in backstance while executing inside block, immediately pivoting 180 degrees ( facing south) in backstance/outside block.

[IcemanSK]

It's the one that starts w/ a down block in a front stance. (Like a lot of other forms:) ) The techniques are either inside Fore arm block or outside fore arm block...& their in the middle of the form.

[IcemanSK]

That would be the Taeguk 3/Sam Jang.
Thanks Martial, I thought I was going crazy there a minute. Tae Guek 3/Sam Jang, I don't have questions about, yet. I was talking about Pal Gue 3/Sam Jang.

The Palgue form (as I was taught) has both inside and outside blocks in succession in the segment questioned. I like to use north/south/east/west terminology to desrcibe movement direction. So, for the segment in question, you have just completed a double-knife-hand block to the "west". You turn south in a back stance/outside block, and immediately/on the same count, pivot north and complete another outside block. Then, you step backward (south, but facing north) in a backstance/inside block. Step back (south/facing north) again in backstance/inside block.
Then step back (south/facing north) one more time in backstance while executing inside block, immediately pivoting 180 degrees ( facing south) in backstance/outside block.

Thanks again Martial. I wonder why the older book has it as a succession of outside blocks only. Weird.

[Martial Tucker]

Forms get "tweaked" by the powers that be every now and then, and some schools teach forms a bit differently. I'm not claiming my description is THE correct/only way. It is just the way I was taught, and I would bet there is a variation or two out there.

I spent 2 years on Koryo, and they changed it. Drove me crazy for a month or so.

[IcemanSK]

I know getting "The" answer on forms is impossible. I'll take a variety of answers & go from there. I learned the Tae Gueks & Koryo more than 20 years ago. I wonder how many times they've changed since then?:)

[Gemini]

That would be the Taeguk 3/Sam Jang.

The Palgue form (as I was taught) has both inside and outside blocks in succession in the segment questioned. I like to use north/south/east/west terminology to desrcibe movement direction. So, for the segment in question, you have just completed a double-knife-hand block to the "west". You turn south in a back stance/outside block, and immediately/on the same count, pivot north and complete another outside block. Then, you step backward (south, but facing north) in a backstance/inside block. Step back (south/facing north) again in backstance/inside block.
Then step back (south/facing north) one more time in backstance while executing inside block, immediately pivoting 180 degrees ( facing south) in backstance/outside block.

I learned it exactly the same way. Assuming you mean the way the block ends, not begins.

[FearlessFreep]

I learnd Oh-Jang that the first two hammer strikes are face level. My new instructors wants them to come all the way down vertical

I also learned Oh-Jang with walking stance in the parts where you snap kick/block. My new instructor has me do it will all forward extended stances

I've noticed numerous other cosmetic differences in stances and hand position. Nothing serious, though

[Gemini]

I learnd Oh-Jang that the first two hammer strikes are face level. My new instructors wants them to come all the way down vertical

I also learned Oh-Jang with walking stance in the parts where you snap kick/block. My new instructor has me do it will all forward extended stances

I've noticed numerous other cosmetic differences in stances and hand position. Nothing serious, though
Are you referring to Taeguek?

[FearlessFreep]

Are you referring to Taeguek?

Oopos...sorry, should've mentioned that. Yes, Taeguek.

[Martial Tucker]

I learnd Oh-Jang that the first two hammer strikes are face level. My new instructors wants them to come all the way down vertical

I also learned Oh-Jang with walking stance in the parts where you snap kick/block. My new instructor has me do it will all forward extended stances

I've noticed numerous other cosmetic differences in stances and hand position. Nothing serious, though
The version of Taeguk Oh Jang I know has the initial hammer fists coming down to waist level. The snap kick/block segment that I learned is using a walking stance.

[IcemanSK]

Any other thoughts on Pal Gue 3/Sam Jang (the ones that are older than the Tae Guek forms, y'all). Especially, if someone has a different opinion than Martial's (just cuz I'm curious)

Thanks.

[Rick Fine]

In the Chayon-Ryu system, we do only outside center blocks during this phrase of the form. But of course, our founder and director is GM Kim Soo, so of course we do it that way. :)

In all seriousness, though, what difference does it make? Tactically speaking, either an inside or outside block would be equally valid against a center line attack. Whichever you choose, far more important would be how well you are performing that block. Follow the version that your instructor advises, and make the most of it. There's far more to learn by evaluating your movement according to basic principles than according to which blueprint to follow.

[IcemanSK]

In the Chayon-Ryu system, we do only outside center blocks during this phrase of the form. But of course, our founder and director is GM Kim Soo, so of course we do it that way. :)

In all seriousness, though, what difference does it make? Tactically speaking, either an inside or outside block would be equally valid against a center line attack. Whichever you choose, far more important would be how well you are performing that block. Follow the version that your instructor advises, and make the most of it. There's far more to learn by evaluating your movement according to basic principles than according to which blueprint to follow.

Rick:

I have learned a great deal from GM Kim Soo's books & I respect him very much. However, it was when I looked at his book & compared them to the other book ("WTF Official" book) that I asked the question. Pal Gue Sam Jang was a form I never learned from my instructor. We did all the Tae Guek forms & Pal Gue 6-8. I was asked to teach some beginning Pal Gues to a group of Okinawan styists I train with so they can perform them for a tournament that they have upcoming.

I completely agree w/ you that how well the techniques are performed is of great importance. But if someone at a tournament (or elsewhere) raises a red flag about something I teach, I want to have a good answer for them. If I choose to teach that form w/ outside blocks only, I'll now say, "I'm using GM Kim Soo's version of the form."

Thanks for your help.

[Martial Tucker]

In the Chayon-Ryu system, we do only outside center blocks during this phrase of the form. But of course, our founder and director is GM Kim Soo, so of course we do it that way. :)

In all seriousness, though, what difference does it make? Tactically speaking, either an inside or outside block would be equally valid against a center line attack. Whichever you choose, far more important would be how well you are performing that block. Follow the version that your instructor advises, and make the most of it. There's far more to learn by evaluating your movement according to basic principles than according to which blueprint to follow.

I agree with this. I have been taught repeatedly (and I teach) that a block is as much of a strike as it is a defensive mechanism, and I think the "correctness of movement/technique" is far more important than the selection between two similar techniques.

As for "what difference does it make" in the context of the series of moves being discussed from Palgue Sam Jang, I can only think of one thing, and this is more of a personal preference than anything: If I am fending off a centerline attack, presumably coming from an outreached arm of an attacker, my general preference would be to block in a manner that would tend to turn my attackers body away from me, rather than have the attackers other arm rotate towards me as a result of the block. For instance, if I were in a right foot-back stance, and an attacker reached for me with his right hand, I would tend to prefer an inside block with my left, in order to rotate his body/other hand away from me. Granted, an outside block by my left hand would be equally effective in countering my opponents incoming left, but it would also tend to rotate my opponents body in a way that would bring his other hand towards me.

Of course, in discussing bunkai of a form, there is much room for interpretation in terms of the nature of attack you are defending, and that would support your "what difference does it make?" statement!

Perhaps I'm nitpicking, and again , I am only speaking of my own preference. I again reiterate my agreement that proper execution is much more important, as you said.:asian:

[Gemini]

But if someone at a tournament (or elsewhere) raises a red flag about something I teach, I want to have a good answer for them. If I choose to teach that form w/ outside blocks only, I'll now say, "I'm using GM Kim Soo's version of the form."


Very valid reason. I think we would all agree that to do a correct execution of a wrong move is far more important than a poor execution of a correct move, in a competition, it's suicide. You need to do both.

[IcemanSK]

Martial:

I agree with you that natural movement (& even moving his attack away from you w/ the block you choose) is the way to forms ought to be practiced.

My concern is that not everyone in martial arts feels that way. I picture my student doing that form in a tournament in a way that's its not normally seen & getting ripped shreds by some uncaring judge because the judge says, "that's not the way to do it." I've seen junk like that happen. I wouldn't want my folks to experience it if I can help it.

Ya know what I mean?

[Martial Tucker]

Martial:

I agree with you that natural movement (& even moving his attack away from you w/ the block you choose) is the way to forms ought to be practiced.

My concern is that not everyone in martial arts feels that way. I picture my student doing that form in a tournament in a way that's its not normally seen & getting ripped shreds by some uncaring judge because the judge says, "that's not the way to do it." I've seen junk like that happen. I wouldn't want my folks to experience it if I can help it.

Ya know what I mean?

Oh sure, my post was in reference to practical application only, not competition. I don't compete, and tend to not look at things in a competition context, but I absolutely understand your point.

[Rick Fine]

IcemanSK:

Good luck to you and your students at that tournament! Let's hope the judges will be impartial, no matter who performs which version of a form.

[IcemanSK]

IcemanSK:

Good luck to you and your students at that tournament! Let's hope the judges will be impartial, no matter who performs which version of a form.

Thank you, sir:asian:

[Brad Dunne]

I learnd Oh-Jang that the first two hammer strikes are face level. My new instructors wants them to come all the way down vertical

Something apparently has changed with that (Oh-Jang) form. We never did hammer strikes, but inside middle blocks with backfist strikes to the face. Interesting............

[Martial Tucker]

I learnd Oh-Jang that the first two hammer strikes are face level. My new instructors wants them to come all the way down vertical

Something apparently has changed with that (Oh-Jang) form. We never did hammer strikes, but inside middle blocks with backfist strikes to the face. Interesting............
This is a reference to Taeguk Oh Jang, not Palgue Oh Jang.
In the beginning of the Pinan Shodan kata, there is a similar movement. As I learned it, that hammerfist stops at neck level. But....the way I learned Taeguk Oh Jang has the hammerfist dropping to waist level. Again, not saying I am right/others wrong, just weighing in with what I was taught.

[bignick]

We do palgwe sam chang with the outside blocks when you are stepping backwards. To me it makes sense because your body is rotating that way from the step so the block can use that momentum as well...

[Brad Dunne]

http://www.vegastaekwondo.com/poomse.html

Shows both Taeguk and Palgue forms, informative site.

After reviewing Oh-Jang (Taeguk), the opening moves are hammer fists, but we were shown a backfist at our dojang. Personally, the back fist makes more sense in a self defense application to me.

[Martial Tucker]

http://www.vegastaekwondo.com/poomse.html

Shows both Taeguk and Palgue forms, informative site.

After reviewing Oh-Jang (Taeguk), the opening moves are hammer fists, but we were shown a backfist at our dojang. Personally, the back fist makes more sense in a self defense application to me.

I agree. I always felt the hammerfist executed in the manner used in Taeguk Oh-Jang was clumsy. Of course, that probably was a reflection of my execution! I was taught that the target of the hammerfist in Oh-Jang is supposedly the neck/collarbone area. OK, fine...but if it were up to me, and I was attacking that area, I would be more inclined to use a knifehand strike and a front stance so that I could better "settle" my weight into the strike.....whatever.......Funny, your use of the backfist instead of the hammerfist would make the opening of the form very similar to the way I learned Palgue Pal-Jang (8)

Here's yet another decent site for videos:

http://www.fisks.com/tkd/default.htm