Number 5 Strike.

[arnisador]

How far forward should the number five strike go? I feel I know the answer but I am having trouble putting it into words for a younger student who keeps extending his arm all the way out (almost like he's doing a fencing thrust, but at lower midsection level). I'd like to give him a simple rule rather than having to keep saying "that's too far--you'd have no power there" but not giving more specific advice. I'm doing it as a straight-out thrust, not the upward hooking variation, though I myself always know I'm at the end of the thrust when my left hand slaps my right bicep.

[Cthulhu]

Maybe you can explain to him how far it should go by borrowing the 'immovable elbow' principle from Wing Chun. Basically, tell him not to extend his elbow more than a fist's width away from his body.

Cthulhu

[Guro Harold]

Have seen some styles emphasize using the opposing hand to stop the pokes at bend in the elbow so that thrusts don't hyperextend. I use this method as well. With knife applications, it also protects the arteries there which are vulnerable when thrust is thrown.

My $0.02

[dearnis.com]

Have him thrust a heavy bag from different ranges; let him feel the differnce in power, balance, and so on himself. That is probably the easiest way for him to get the instinctive feel that is so hard to put into words.

[eternalwhitebelt]

I have found that the right distance is just something that comes with time. You keep repeating to him what is correct when he does it, for positive reinforcement as well. It will just come with time.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by dearnis.com

Have him thrust a heavy bag from different ranges; let him feel the differnce in power, balance, and so on himself. That is probably the easiest way for him to get the instinctive feel that is so hard to put into words.

I had been thinking of this but unfortunatley I lack the equipment. I may just have him use a tree out back. The feedback from that may well be the quickest way. But I also feel for myself as an instructor that I'd like a verbal description, like the fist's width idea (though I go nearly two fists away on this strike).

I'm sure that time will be a necessary component as well!

[dearnis.com]

If you don't have access to a heavy bag (or a heavy bag that you can randomly whack with sticks anyway...) you can also try using a kicking shield (with obviouls precautions...) A tree is probably too "dead" feeling to give good feedback. A good training tool is an old tire; scrounge one from a garage (they are happy to get rid of them; saves disposal fees), drill a hole in the tread, and bolt an eye-bolt in place. You now have a great stick target that you can hang from a rafter or tree (and if you have kids they can swing on it...)
The tire will blacken your sticks, so set aside one pair for on tire use.
As frustrating as it gets sometimes the language just doesnt have the words we need to describe certain actions. I found one of my best breakthroughs in teaching efficiency was when insted of trying endlessly to explain some minor tweak in a technique I got comfortable enough to just start grabbing students and positioning them through the move (ie turning a hip or an elbow in or out, turning a foot to point another way, etc).

[Guro Harold]

Another method I use is having the students statically press their thrust against the brick walls in the gym where I teach. This also helps when exlain how and why we need the wrist to be properly aligned when we thrust and also shows how having the opposite leg and thrusting arm meeting at the point generates greater thrusting power as compared to reach (ie #6 with left foot forward as compared with right foot forward).

[arnisandyz]

You can "tell" him all you want, some things have to be felt like letting your two year old put there finger in a socket (not that anyone would do that to thier kid, Cthulhu). Best thing is to let them thrust at you in that manner in a sparring or sombrada situation and you let them feel why its not right by whatever method you choose. You should see a big lightbulb over your students head if you do it correctly.:D

[arnisandyz]

Depends on the weapon too. If it has a sharp point, you don't need much power and can get away with some extra extension. I would be mindful of telling people this is right and that is wrong, chances are someone who is very good at fighting that way might change your mind. I try to present it as there are many ways and show the advantages and disadvantages and let it be their choice.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by dearnis.com

A tree is probably too "dead" feeling to give good feedback.

Yeah, but it's all I've got right now. The tire idea sounds good--I have plenty of room to hang one out back. Maybe I'll try that.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by arnisandyz

Depends on the weapon too. If it has a sharp point, you don't need much power and can get away with some extra extension. I would be mindful of telling people this is right and that is wrong, chances are someone who is very good at fighting that way might change your mind. I try to present it as there are many ways and show the advantages and disadvantages and let it be their choice.

I've pointed out to him that with a sharp-tipped weapon it could work like he's doing it and indeed his thrust seems very fencing-like to me. (I have never fenced, but it looks to me like what fencers do.) For now we're focusing on sticks as sticks though and I think it's plain and simple wrong to overextend the #5 thrust. I've seen people use the #6/#10 at long range like that and the #7/#11 at moderate range and I have to admit that you may be right about the #5, but still I'd rather have him doing something more conservative, or rather mainstream, now. This is a twelve year old and I think he needs to learn the basic way first. Even at that age I too try to present the advantages/disadvantages viewpoint but I think I'd rather see him doing the #5 at a much more medio range.

[dearnis.com]

The thrusting dynamic with a stick is a bit more sensitive; you can screw things up where you would "get away" with the same thing using a blade. I like to have my guys follow the 5 into an uppercut, but it sounds like you are trying to keep things basic for your student right now.
Something that may help him when he gets frustrated with the 6 and 7 is to show them first as entries to disarms and locks; whe he has the dynamic of using the stick for those moves down he will already see how to apply them as attacks.

[Matt Stone]

But you still have each other, right? Tires are great training tools, heavy bags too, but before that stuff was invented, what did folks use?

I'm not advocating doing this full power - give me a little credit - but as posted upthread, use a toned down sparring situation and allow him to thrust the #5 from different angles to understand the range requirements...

I would train him on both the upward hooking method as well as the straight thrust...

Verbal explanation -

"The #5 thrust is meant to be used at X range, and as such requires that a certain amount of extension be used, but not so much as to provide either overextension (and therefore lack of balance and responsiveness) or an opening in your defense."

Maybe?

Then have him practice the thrust until he vomits. It took me a long time and many hyperextended elbows to get my punches right when I first learned them, but learn them I did. Through training. The explanation was good reference, but that wasn't what taught the muscles what to do...

My 2 yen...

[arnisador]

Originally posted by dearnis.com

I like to have my guys follow the 5 into an uppercut, but it sounds like you are trying to keep things basic for your student right now.

Definitely. I mentioned the uppercut and demonstrated it but am taking small steps at this age. I don't really like it as a straight thrust stick technique--bladed, sure, but not stick--so the upeprcut to my mind is actually a superior application, but I think o fthe straight thrust as the "fundamental" technique and the uppercut as a variation (that I also associate with a bladed weapon--the disemboweling technique with the edge reversed).

On a similar note, at a seminar I went to the instructor (Felipe Jose) had a similar numerada to that of Modern Arnis but always followed the #12 downward strike with "the thirteenth strike", basically making it rompida (reverse #12 with blade awareness). I liked that and add it in for my own practice but it's not what I teach.

The #6 and #7 went fine after I showed him the knife interpretations.

Yiliquan1, I'll try your explanation! Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

[arnisandyz]

I think this not only a problem with the #5 thrusting, but any strike with any weapon or emptyhand. Things develop in parallel. When he better understands his footwork mobility, he will realize he doesn't have to over extend to get a hit because use of proper footwork will put him in range and he will actually be hitting with his legs and not his arm. Just takes time.

Also,people tend to learn not to leave a hand out when it has potential to be whacked. I learned the hard way. You could tell me all day to keep my hand in, but when it got whacked over and over I adjusted, not because someone told me to do it, but because it hurt like hell.

[arnisador]

Both good points arnisandyz. His footwork does need some work and I mention it often. And I haven't started sparring with him yet but will before terribly long.

[The Mist]

If you have your student do the #5 variation with the slight upward thrust, it will eliminate the hyperextension of the elbow. Then he will learn how far the thrust goes when he practices it for a while, and you can swith him to strait in if you feel the need to practice that skill.

[The Mist]

Make that switch not swith.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by The Mist

If you have your student do the #5 variation with the slight upward thrust, it will eliminate the hyperextension of the elbow. Then he will learn how far the thrust goes when he practices it for a while, and you can swith him to strait in if you feel the need to practice that skill.

That'a an interesting thought! Let me chew it over...

[Kiwi]

Do you consider the straight #5 with a stick to be combative? I have been told it can work as a shot to the hip bones.

We tend to do the #5 with more blade oriented. We extend it like a fencers thrust and keep the uppercut as a separate strike.
It works well if you step back slightly and as your opponent tries to adjust to a closer fighting measure you hit them with the long thrust.

Kiwi

[The Mist]

Yes, if you are asking me. Hit the hip fold is fine. Most of the traditional targts in the front will work in self defense situation.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by The Mist

Yes, if you are asking me. Hit the hip fold is fine.

Are you thinking of this as a sword technique or a stick technique? I can see the off-balancing action of it with the stick.

[The Mist]

Hi, were you thinking of a reason not to use a blade? I was not making a distinction between knife, sword, stick, or open hand. I belive that Prof. would not have made a distinction and possibly said something along the lines of.... you must make the translation. //// now just me talking, did you ever punch somebody in the hip fold in practice? It has a somewhat drastic unbalancing effect like you suggested. Any tool would have a simular effect. Well actually a stick hurts a lot doing that even just practicing. Well, how do you feel about it?

[arnisador]

I as trying to visualize your technique. I can see how a stick strike there would have an unbalancig effect, but #6/10 is the only poke I regularly use with the stick (as opposed to the knife where they all feel good to me). I do use several variations of #6/10, including hooking down or hooking from the side.

[BRAM]

I mean no disrespect or agrument with the great responses..
You guys are really onto it..Range is important..range within actual usage and where is the bad guy...

IMHO..I think I'd let the student try thrusting with a sharp object @ a target that you can puncture..like a foam dummy...
to fell the diffrence between impact, stabbing-insertion, thrusting & tip ripping...
and to see the difference between using a stick...which is tip impact not insertion impact...

It goes back to the post that says the Professor wouldn't have made a distinction..
In the beginning he might not have..and he didn't...For he wanted us to understand motion..as one had to see that any motion coming down the centerline was a "5"...in grossest sense a thrust.be it palm down, palm sideways, palm up..or the tool being used...
and it could be high, medium or low on that center line..
In actuallity the tool does make a difference as to range, extension and usage..and he, the Professor DID make that distinction..
A knife is not a stick. a stick is not a sword. a sword is not a bolo...
a bolo is not a "rapier"...
well you get the idea....
and to make a translation of this sort is not just a mental "Oh OK I have another tool in my hand"...
One needs to learn the tools and their uses...
ROFL.. but that's what its about..


If the object of the thrust is to hit with the tip..then full extension at long range is OK.. such as fencing or a rapier..
If the object was to jam with the tip then full extension isn't called for and it probably won't work..such as a stick or barong..

some practice ideas?
try a moving focus mitt that needs to be poked @ long range compared to a body shield or a heavy bag..all three need diffferent thrusts!

The beauty of the art..again IMHO..is that its ambigous..its amorphic..it fits the need of the time or the tool..

thanks for letting me post..

bram

[arnisandyz]

some practice ideas?
try a moving focus mitt that needs to be poked @ long range compared to a body shield or a heavy bag..all three need diffferent thrusts!

bram [/B][/QUOTE]

This is good. Another variation of this would be letting him poke the focus mitt at long range while the pad holder does a counter strike after the poke (with a padded or light stick). This should let the person (thrusting) feel how far he can reach while still being in balance to get to a favorable position or do an evasive manuver.

[arnisandyz]

A knife is not a stick. a stick is not a sword. a sword is not a bolo...
a bolo is not a "rapier"...
well you get the idea....
and to make a translation of this sort is not just a mental "Oh OK I have another tool in my hand"...
One needs to learn the tools and their uses...

bram [/B][/QUOTE]

Another good point. The weight and feel of the tool has a heavy influence on how you fight with it. A bolo or barong would be way to tip heavy to do a thrust you might do with a rapier or even espada. A heavy stick makes you want to club more than light rattan, light rattan forces you to use more finnesse to deal with pressure (you don't have that heavy stick to hide behind.!). Long sticks make you feel like staying largo, short sticks medio/corto.
The really good practicioners I've seen who have beed doing it for a while adjust to the tool automatically, without really thinking about it.

[The Mist]

I was generalizing in the lack of distinction of the #5 strike. And Professor would have made the distinction you made in private or off to the side with more advanced students. So I totally agree with that. I have actually heard him in front of a general group say to translate the motions between weapons for yourself, once you understand the Basic Motion.
You are right Bram. But, you are teaching at a higher level then I was getting at in the post. I was interchanging ranges ... thinking in the back of my mind about espada y daga. That is where I was coming from. FYI. /////// Somebody else was visualizing the technique I was getting at... I was saying to poke to the top of the leg where it meets the abdomen. Only be vary careful, because it can be very dangerous even in practice.

:)

[Pappy Geo]

Not much discussion on the footwork that goes with a #5 strike. I see the basics as a right foot/leg forward in an aggressive close, depending on the range, or possible right foot/leg back as a clearing line while countering with a#5 strike. Probably many other variations and thoughts?

Isn't the footwork the key for any numbered strike/counter/trap to work effectively?

[BRAM]

Pappy Geo:
hola my friend..
I think the footwork could be infinite..as in the flow..ROFL...
yes. one could be stepping off the line..retirada -retreating style, right or left,
largo range to counter thrust a #5 ...
one could be stepping full side step behind the base line... almost InQuartata...while counter thrusting a #5...
one could be crashing Panil. ..up the right traiangle to counter thrust a #5..
One could do the mirror image of the previous ...up left, counter with #5..
one could be retreating right triangle downward block to #5 counter thrust..
One could be either offensively or defensively stepping Right triangle female to right male enter with a thrust#5...
one could step left male enter with right...thrusting #5....
I think one could just zone left or right, thrust #5....

Is this what you meant?
Be safe..

Bram

[arnisandyz]

RE: footwork

Offensively: Work it into the male triangle, thrust in when stepping forward, retract when stepping out, it also works good to slash out after the thrust.

Defensively: Work it into the female triangle thrusting in while evading or parrying with live hand in either direction. Palm down going to the left, palm up to the right

A good drill is to keep the elbow in (not extending) while still hitting and retracting from the target. The only way to do this is with footwork. Imagine now adding in the extension! Like I said in my earlier post, its the legs that do the hitting!

[Cruentus]

Pappa Geo:
Isn't the footwork the key for any numbered strike/counter/trap to work effectively?

I'd say so!
:asian:

[Rich Parsons]

Arnisador,


Two Questions?

Did you ever find the right serious of words for your description?

And did you ever decide to use the uppercut thrust first and then move to the straight thrust?

Curious minds would like to know.
:asian:

[arnisador]

I'm still largely avoiding the uppercut for control reasons. I never found the right words, though I tried some that were suggested here, as well as bagwork, and things have been getting better. Whether it's cause-and-effect or just practice and time in, I don't know.