What is the general consensus on the creation of Forms as part of your curriculums....... Is it required for you or not........ if so, do you Love it or hate it? Why?


:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

What is the general consensus on the creation of Forms as part of your curriculums....... Is it required for you or not........ if so, do you Love it or hate it? Why?


:asian:

That's a pretty good question. I would have to say that I like the inclusion of Personal Forms. I think they spark creativity in the practitioner, and provide a good base from which to understand a student's thought process. It is not a part of the UKS curriculum for colored belts, but black belts are required to create a thesis form.

Take Care,
Billy :D

P.S. For those of you who don't know, I have been to a couple of different Kenpo schools, and I was always required to create/perform a personal form during my belt tests until now.

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

What is the general consensus on the creation of Forms as part of your curriculums....... Is it required for you or not........ if so, do you Love it or hate it? Why?


:asian:

Well, it's not a requirement in our school. I'm not quite sure why but I do think it's a good idea to do so. The way I look at it this is where you really start to understand kenpo. Putting the techniques together and being able to explain why you put those particular tech.'s and in what sequence of order they are in.
Jason Farnsworth

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

What is the general consensus on the creation of Forms as part of your curriculums....... Is it required for you or not........ if so, do you Love it or hate it? Why?


:asian:

I like it because you can kind of put your personal expression of your tools at whatever point your at. When did this actually get to become implimented into our system? Who brought it about?

My school doesn't do it, but I would think that being able to
accomplish this task means that you have a full understanding
of the forms created for the system.

We do forms, for purple and a big one somewhere up around black. I enjoyed making my personal kata for purple, and learned a lot from it -- like how hard it is to make the techs follow lines! :eek: The theme I picked to explore helped me understand how techs are interrelated, also.

Anywho, if anyone cares there's a writeup of my personal kata on Kenponet.com, under Flame, then Written Curriculum, then Forms/Sets, then Personal Katas. There are about 5 of them written up.

Originally posted by Kirk

My school doesn't do it, but I would think that being able to
accomplish this task means that you have a full understanding
of the forms created for the system.


Its not about knowing the system...its about knowing what you have learned up to that point, Your personal form should reflect your interpretation of the system up to that point. Its about what you know now, not what you will know

In my area we have begin the perosnal forms at purple. Then for every promotion afterward, we are expected to create new personal forms. I think that this is an invaluable tool: it lets the student apply "their" interpretation of the knowledge; it allows the student to explore the different facets of motion and specialize where sought; it enables the student to conduct their own case study of motion on their own topic. I truly feel strongly about this.

Great instructors are hard to come by; however, I feel that when "urged" to rely on ourselves in the application of new found knowledge, brought via great instructors, we are able to teach ourselves a great deal more than we thought. Self-exploration - may lead to liberation...

Own forms are a great opportunity to see what truths you can benefit from at the level that you are at. :)

Originally posted by brianhunter
When did this actually get to become implimented into our system? Who brought it about?


LOL, many years ago........ Mr. Parker implimented it sometime in the 60's.

:asian:

Originally posted by brianhunter
Its not about knowing the system...its about knowing what you have learned up to that point, Your personal form should reflect your interpretation of the system up to that point. Its about what you know now, not what you will know

Sounds like you must be an expert by that post. How much experience do you have to support such a statement?

BTW, I disagree with you.

:asian:

Required in my school:

Belt & Number of Techniques

Purple - 5
Blue - 10
Green - 15
3rd Class Brown - 20
2nd Class Brown - 20 *
1st Class Brown - 20 *
1st Degree Black - 20
2nd Degree Black - 20 *
3rd Degree Black - 20 (Weapons)

* Optional in my original Association.

These forms do NOT have to be cumulative. You may make a much more sophisticated form through the Brown ranks, rather than a new one each time. I have seen students doing completly new forms as their understanding of the Principles, Concepts, and Theories increase. The theme of all "Make-Up Forms" is subject to instructor approval prior to the student testing with it.

Certain students are somewhat intimidated, but with some gentle assistance from classmates, make a good go of it. I personally like to watch them develop as Martial Artists through the expression of the forms as they promote. Remembering that a "mind is like a parachute ... it only works when it is open." I have enjoyed learning from my students in their interpretations of techniques best for them.

-Michael
UKS-Texas :asian:

It is an additional knowledge area of expansion....... with guidence they learn how to "map out" or develop a blueprint of their creation. Not to mention the construction of the project and learn about many, many possibilities and problems that they need to discover in the development of the form. It is truly a learning and growing experience.

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Sounds like you must be an expert by that post. How much experience do you have to support such a statement?

BTW, I disagree with you.

:asian:

never claimed to be an expert...sorry i spoke

If I came off harsh but the way you worded your post.......

"Its not about knowing the system...its about knowing what you have learned up to that point, Your personal form should reflect your interpretation of the system up to that point. Its about what you know now, not what you will know."

sounded to me like you are telling us what it is all about (personal form development).

It is in fact much more than that, it is about learning about the system, and what you have experienced up to that point (as you stated) and also make you grow and research a bit as to think about themes of forms, layout of the form, contents of the form, transitions between techniques within the forms, and learning continually.

It is partially about what you know now but also about stretching forward into the future and trying to understand Kenpo from a different perspective.

:asian:

I dislike doing forms, period. That is not to say that I do not understand the need for them. I realize that I am expected to teach them and to help encourage others to make their own. The main reason I have trouble doing forms is that I have a very hard time "visualizing" attackers while I am in "real" motion. I do much better when I have "live" opponents. Otherwise, I feel like I am dancing by myself.

Forms are an integral part of most arts. They are there for a purpose. Given the fact that the original Katas were the main form of training in the old days (I'm talking pre EPAK), it is interesting that there is such a predominance of lack of interest in them.

Forms perform a number of useful functions. They catalogue the moves, content and philosophy of a system in an organized fashion. Forms, to my mind, can be likened to a nmemonic device, or a way to remember the whole system, in an organized and wholly easy to remember fashion. For instance, in Kenpo, Short and Long #1 and #2 are virtually all the basic fighting techniques and philosophy that any one person would ever need. Short #3 on up are encyclopedic volumes that serve to define the "rest of the story" or fighting technique. It is that way in many other systems, as well... For example, Shotokan Karate. In Shotokan, the first five kata are basic fighting methods and are called Heians. Heian translates, as best as I recall, to "Peaceful Mind"... An indication of their importance to the ability to be able to defend oneself.

Forms serve as a method of mental and physical discipline. Each one has its own theme(s) and concepts. Essentially, each form is simply another technique. And there are many things taught there, both obvious and subliminal. Often times the subliminal enlightenment does not come about until a large number of repeated practices, and personal maturity within the system. Each one is a workout of specific muscles and muscle sets that are required to successfully pull off the techniques being taught.

Lots of reasons to do forms, and not all of them have to do with fighting. Doing forms repetitively is also away to keep your brain functioning at different levels. Forms also allow for experimentation by doing things like changing stances within the motion, changing hand positions and weapons, methods of breathing and chi/ki development. And these qualities allow for the student to begin to think outside of the box, and look for his/her own inner meanings.

A complete system is ever so much more than simply tehcniques, and forms (kata) allow for that expression to show forth in a more complete manner.

In actuality, I believe that the forms of your (or any) system, are actually, when done right, intrinsically more important than standalone techniques.

In summation ( :p )

I believe that it is important to not only have the student make a form of his/her own, but it is also important to allow the student to experiment within the form to see if he/she can become creative and make functional techniques outside of the box that we, as instructors, have given them to work with (the system).

But ... I could be wrong... Just one old guy's opinion.

Dan

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

If I came off harsh but the way you worded your post.......

"Its not about knowing the system...its about knowing what you have learned up to that point, Your personal form should reflect your interpretation of the system up to that point. Its about what you know now, not what you will know."

sounded to me like you are telling us what it is all about (personal form development).

It is in fact much more than that, it is about learning about the system, and what you have experienced up to that point (as you stated) and also make you grow and research a bit as to think about themes of forms, layout of the form, contents of the form, transitions between techniques within the forms, and learning continually.

It is partially about what you know now but also about stretching forward into the future and trying to understand Kenpo from a different perspective.

:asian:

Thanks for the clarification...I was just giving my opinion about it...we all know about opinions though :moon: I have nowhere the experience that youguys do but I still try to contribute (its how I learn) but I do appreciate the apoligy, it was kinda harsh (made me think I did something wrong). I remember reading a story somewhere about someone hanging a universal pattern wrong hopefully I can be a quick learner from my mistakes some day too ;)

Originally posted by brianhunter



...

I remember reading a story somewhere about someone hanging a universal pattern wrong hopefully I can be a quick learner from my mistakes some day too ;)

How does one go about hanging the Universal Pattern wrong?
:eek:


Dan

That was a story I shared with Brian about me. I had hung the Universal pattern up on my studio wall with the "heart" sideways. He came along and inquired about it....... I told him I didn't know there was a correct angle........ he then said it was ok as it was....... but as he walked on he muttered.... if you want your art to be "alive" the heart should be "upright" but it's ok as it is.

As soon as he left............ I got my drill out and fixed it!!!!!!!!

LOL.....

:asian:

Sorry Dennis! Must have been a senior moment. I remember very well you telling me that story several years ago ... Now!

Sometimes the memory just gets : :flushed:

Dan:rofl:

Forgot one thing. At some level forms are practiced as if against a live opponent. Marcos Bonfigliano and I were talking right after he won the Internationals with Long #6, and he told me he practiced and performed the Form, as if at any time a live opponent could step in.

When you have been AT the ART for long enough, you are no longer "dancing with yourself", rather you are facing a very real, live attack. You learn to focus body, mind, and spirit through the diligent and intense practice of your Forms ... that is, if you choose to.

OOS,
-Michael
UKS-Texas

I thought that you were supposed to perform all forms from Short 3 to Long 6 like that anyways...:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

What is the general consensus on the creation of Forms as part of your curriculums....... Is it required for you or not........ if so, do you Love it or hate it? Why?


:asian:


At what belt level do you require this GD?




:asian:

I do them all that way. 30+ years ago I started in Shotokan, then did several years of Taekwondo, before finding Kenpo in 1979. All the forms I knew prior to Kenpo were at about the level of Short #1 or Long #1. So that power and focus can be done at the "Basics" level. And it can win tournaments in open divisions against hard stylists.

The more sophisticated basics in the #2 Forms's all have practical applications, you just have to find them. I visualize opponents and teach the Forms against opponent's here also. Or at least the potential self-defense applications inherent in the moves. It helps add saliency to the repetitive strikes for the beginners and captures their interest.

-MB
UKS-Texas

Originally posted by Klondike93
At what belt level do you require this GD?


I start this process at Purple Belt as originally outlined by Mr. Parker.

Purple.......... 5 techniques
Blue............. 10 techniques
Green........... 15 techniques
3rd Brown.... 20 techniques
2nd Brown... 20 techniques
1st Brown... 20 techniques
1st Black... 20 techniques

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



I start this process at Purple Belt as originally outlined by Mr. Parker.

Purple.......... 5 techniques
Blue............. 10 techniques
Green........... 15 techniques
3rd Brown.... 20 techniques
2nd Brown... 20 techniques
1st Brown... 20 techniques
1st Black... 20 techniques

:asian:

Do you allow/require or dissallow weapons at any point?

Originally posted by Seig

I dislike doing forms, period. That is not to say that I do not understand the need for them. I realize that I am expected to teach them and to help encourage others to make their own. The main reason I have trouble doing forms is that I have a very hard time "visualizing" attackers while I am in "real" motion. I do much better when I have "live" opponents. Otherwise, I feel like I am dancing by myself.

Always a "Radical" in the bunch.:mad:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



I start this process at Purple Belt as originally outlined by Mr. Parker.

Purple.......... 5 techniques
Blue............. 10 techniques
Green........... 15 techniques
3rd Brown.... 20 techniques
2nd Brown... 20 techniques
1st Brown... 20 techniques
1st Black... 20 techniques

:asian:

Where is it outlined at, Infinite Insights or the kenpo manuals?

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Sounds like you must be an expert by that post. How much experience do you have to support such a statement?

BTW, I disagree with you.

:asian:

You sure have your nerve coming off like that. I don't remember anyone promoting you to Grand Master!

I agree with Brian wholeheartedly, and wish I had a few more students like him.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Originally posted by jeffkyle
Do you allow/require or dissallow weapons at any point?

Sure, depending upon one's ability and interests or after black belt.

:asian:

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
You sure have your nerve coming off like that


LOL, talk about my nerve...... hee hee sounds like the pot calling the kettle black:rofl:

Originally posted by Klondike93
Where is it outlined at, Infinite Insights or the kenpo manuals?


It was taken from my manuals, the same that several others have that were current with Mr. Parker when he passed, as well.

:asian:

I thought I would revive it. Since in the later belts, the personal form still requires twenty sets (moves), do you allow students to create one, and then stick with that one, just refining it? To clarify, in Short Form 1, once we learn it, we keep doing it hte same way, over and over, but as our skill and knowledge increases the same moves take on different meaning and "flavor".

I seem to remember reading how one senior master described learning forms/katas/sets (I think he was from a Japanese art):

At the beginning level you are concentrating strictly on your own moves.

At the intermediate level you are seeing your attackers.

At the advanced level an observer watching you is seeing your attackers.

Here's to getting to that level!

Respects,
Bill Parsons

Originally posted by bdparsons
At the advanced level an observer watching you is seeing your attackers.
Here's to getting to that level!


Now that sounds like a real challenging goal!
:cheers:
:asian:

I had to do a thesis Kata for my 1st Black as well as a Kenpo thesis. I was given no criteria to follow other than it had to be done for my test. I wrote out what I wanted to cover in my form and then started putting techniques together that covered the points that I wanted to express. Nothing really tested my knowledge up to that point more than putting that form together. One of the things that I really liked about it was I could really express how "I" do Kenpo. Which in turn let my instructor at the time know where I truly was in my Kenpo training. As an instructor, what better way is there to see where your students are at in there understanding of Kenpo than to tell them to make something up even if it is one technique. I beleive that thesis Katas should part of a any system. I read in this thread that some people are not fond of doing forms. That's cool by me but you might think about asking students to come up with a few techniques on their own and have them do them on a body as part of their testing criteria. It is just a suggestion. I had to do the techniques that were in my form on a person which I really enjoyed. In the UKF (Universal Kenpo Federation), where I train now, we are required to do Forms of Spontaneity. Basically, on any test you can be asked to perform five techniques against a right kick or a left punch or combinations of each. I find this to be very beneficial to ones training because yo have to do it "on the Fly". When you become proficiant at it, you really start to feel the flow of techniques and what movements flow smothly, quickly and accurately into one another. When we are asked to do these Form of Spontaneity the creative juices can just flow because you don't have to any particular technique. You can just let movement flow into movement.


Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

Originally posted by kenpo2dabone
Basically, on any test you can be asked to perform five techniques against a right kick or a left punch or combinations of each. I find this to be very beneficial to ones training because yo have to do it "on the Fly". When you become proficiant at it, you really start to feel the flow of techniques and what movements flow smothly, quickly and accurately into one another. When we are asked to do these Form of Spontaneity the creative juices can just flow because you don't have to any particular technique. You can just let movement flow into movement.


Salute,
Mike Miller UKF
Isn't that exactly what we are trying to teach our students to do in the real world? This seems to reinforce the entire idea of doing a personal form.

We have something similar to a form done, but it's made "on the fly", before regular forms are performed.
As you go up in the ranks, the complexity and variety of strikes and moves increases.

And then, there's the spontaneous techniques, done to surprise attacks, double attacks, etc. You have to react using your kenpo, and not necesarily a prefixed technique.

However, we do personal techniques for championships.

It's not really a part of the AKKI to require a personal form (I don't think, at least I've not hear of it as such yet...).

But I do like creating my personal form, almost finished with it... at least with the first version of it..
probably revamp it a lot down the years.

Your Bro.
John

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
What is the general consensus on the creation of Forms as part of your curriculums....... Is it required for you or not........ if so, do you Love it or hate it? Why?


:asian:

we had to create one as we go...3 techniques from yellow, three from orange...etc.....i usulally picked the ones that were most difficult for me and the ones i needed the most practice.

Originally posted by Seig
Isn't that exactly what we are trying to teach our students to do in the real world? This seems to reinforce the entire idea of doing a personal form.

My sentamence exactly! The only difference between doing a "personal form" or "thesis Kata" and doing a "Form of Spontaneity" is a "personal Form" is worked on, practiced, perfected and then performed. A "Form of Sponaneity" is not practiced ahead of time. It is made up on the spot. That is not to say that you can't practice "Forms of Spontaneity" on your own when ever you want to but really you should almost nevr do to forms of sponaneity the same way twice because they are made up as you go not before hand. It is not a real easy thing to do. I invite you to try it. All I usually do to practice, is tell myself to go through five techniques for a right ounch in succession with no stops or hesitations. The trick is to not think about it and just begin moving and don't stop until you have finished five techniques against a right punch. It is harder than it sounds because we train in a manner that makes us think "O.K. I know five techniques against a right punch so I will do five swords, then delayed sword and then back breaker and so on. Rather than do five techniques right out of the manual, try just allowing one movement to flow into the next. It is just another way to "play" with your Kenpo. I find it hard to not think about techniques straight out of the manual when I practice this way but when I can clear my mind of the set techniques I can really flow and I feel like I can just keep going.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

You can't ask a yellow belt to do a form of spontaneity with forms, but you can tell them to imagine opponents from different angles and having to block first and then do a kick or a punch, even if it's always the same puch.

As you said

I find it hard to not think about techniques straight out of the manual when I practice this way but when I can clear my mind of the set techniques I can really flow and I feel like I can just keep going.

That's what we train this way. First stances, then stances and blocks, stances and punches, etc. It's also a good way to train the basics of the system.

Mmmm, I lost the point of what I was going to say when I hit the reply button :S

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
You can't ask a yellow belt to do a form of spontaneity with forms, but you can tell them to imagine opponents from different angles and having to block first and then do a kick or a punch, even if it's always the same puch.

I agree, it wold be unfare to ask a yellow belt to do a form of spontaneity. I sometimes forget to think like a white belt. I will have to ask my instructor when a student can expect to have to perform a "FOS" on a belt test. Now you got me curious. I came to the UKF as a 2nd Degree Black Belt so I did not test with them at the lower ranks. I will ask my instructor tonight. I also agree the it is a good idea to atleast get a Yellow Belt understanding the different directions that an attack can come from and the best coarse of action to take given the direction of the attack. Certain angles advacate that you you should move to the outside of a punch while other angles advacate moving to the inside.



Mmmm, I lost the point of what I was going to say when I hit the reply button :S [/B]

No worries, I seen to have found a point in your post and I appreciate your sharing it here.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

Origin. posted by Kenpomachine
You can't ask a yellow belt to do a form of spontaneity with forms.


Well, you can, but don't expect great results this soon.

I start this process at Purple Belt and then only with 5 techniques to start... then, add 5 techniques ever rank after until it reaches 20 as a base rule.
:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Well, you can, but don't expect great results this soon.

I start this process at Purple Belt and then only with 5 techniques to start... then, add 5 techniques ever rank after until it reaches 20 as a base rule.
:asian:

Sure, it was a spontaneity form with TECHNIQUES and not forms :)
But well, block/punch and block/kick can be seen as an easy technique.

I am not required to develop a personal form but after reading all of the discussion it sound very interesting. I have started to put one together for my own experience. I does make one think through the material. Thanks

Originally posted by molson
I am not required to develop a personal form but after reading all of the discussion it sound very interesting. I have started to put one together for my own experience. I does make one think through the material. Thanks


But also how to lay it out or navigate it within a pattern such as the +, x, combination of both, the H pattern, a straight line advancing or retreating (as in the case of an ally), or a horizontal pattern (as in the case if your back is against a wall so you can only move left or right), or several other patterns in which the form can flow.

Also theme is important....

much can be extracted and gained by this exercise.....

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
But also how to lay it out or navigate it within a pattern such as the +, x, combination of both, the H pattern, a straight line advancing or retreating (as in the case of an ally), or a horizontal pattern (as in the case if your back is against a wall so you can only move left or right), or several other patterns in which the form can flow.

Also theme is important....

much can be extracted and gained by this exercise.....

This is a win - win exercise.... Even if the student does a horible job.... it gives a vehicle to be able to work from to show and teach incorrect or better possibilities, just another "drill" or tool within our system to help the student.

:asian:

Personal forms are a requirement for my school. From yellow to 1st brown the form is to be made up of techniques from the belts, about four per blet. So when I tested fro 3rd brown a few months back I had to have 4 yellow, 4 orange... all the way up to 4 from the 3rd brown list. After you've reached 1st brown you begin working on your black belt thesis and kata. The kata must contain atleast 20 techniques of your own design.

I happen to like working on a personal form, just picking techniques off the lists and fitting them together has helped me understand the techniques that I chose in new ways. I am better able to understand the power principles, and timing concepts of the techniques. In some cases I had to change the timing of strikes in the techniqes in order to get them to fit into the form.

- Josh -

They are a requirement or our school. Once for Purple Belt then one for Blue and then again to get the Black belt. Possibly after that too.

We are allowed to choose any technique from any belt we know. We can do extentions if we know them, change the end of the move if we need to. Have the attackers coming from any angle etc etc.

They are performed as a Form first then we have attackers put the moves on for each technique.

I like to choose moves that I dont like so much, that I find more difficult and are a real test to myself. If I was to choose moves like Delayed Sword etc I would feel like I was robbing myself of the chance to prove what I have learnt.

There is nothing more exhilarating than having "Your Own Form" work and flow with attackers at a grading.