Krav Maga Organizations

[MJS]

In another thread, Loki posted this:


1) Krav Maga International (Kapap): The organization I belong to, known in America as Krav Maga Inc., operates primarily around NYC. Headed by Haim Zut.

2) Krav Magen: Formerly headed by Eli Avikzar until his death in May 2004.

3) Israeli Krav Maga: Headed by Haim Gideon.

4) International Krav Maga Federation: Headed by Eyal Yanilov, operates mainly in Asia and Europe.

5) Krav Maga: American organization based in LA, certifies most of America's Krav Maga instructors. Headed by Darren Levine.

Imi Lichtenfeld's original organization disbanded around 1990 when disputes between todays masters arose.

My question is: Is there a difference in the material taught or is it pretty much the same?

Mike

[Loki]

To my understanding, in theory, they all teach pretty much the same, subtly varying. I'm under the impression that this is similar to the differences between various forms of Kenpo (Paker, Tracy), please correct me if I'm wrong. Though I have plans to do so, I've never attended a session headed by an instructor from a different organization.

People who train in KM outside of Israel: what KM lineage is your instructor from and what does he teach?

[MJS]

Thanks for your reply!

As for what branch I fall under: I'd fall under group 1, from the list posted below. My instructor had been going to NY to doing some training with Rhon and his group. I attended 1 seminar quite a few years ago with Darrens group. The material was pretty much the same.

Mike

[Grubic]

Know this is an old thread, but I figure we need to breathe some life into this place.

I train with Rhon at Krav Maga Inc. Rhon and his instructors are all great people and I love training there!

[MJS]

Welcome to the forum! Its great to have a few more KM people on board!:) Please feel free to start some discussions on the art.

Mike

[JamesDraegun]

I believe (and I may be wrong), but my instructor is trained under Moni Azik--Commando Krav Maga, as I believe is one of the terms. (website of the Commando Krav Maga- http://www.combatkravmaga.com/) I do not know what 'organization' my instructor is with, (unless you mean by the 'type' of Krav Maga)?

As far as I know, Commando Krav Maga is just another Krav with a different name, as most are. (The only differences between some arts are just political, ya'know?)

[Loki]

I believe (and I may be wrong), but my instructor is trained under Moni Azik--Commando Krav Maga, as I believe is one of the terms. (website of the Commando Krav Maga- http://www.combatkravmaga.com/) I do not know what 'organization' my instructor is with, (unless you mean by the 'type' of Krav Maga)?

As far as I know, Commando Krav Maga is just another Krav with a different name, as most are. (The only differences between some arts are just political, ya'know?)

All I know is that most of Aizik's claims are exaggerated and he isn't nearly as influential in the development of KM as he claims. His whole "Commando" theme is overblown too.

[Jonathan Randall]

All I know is that most of Aizik's claims are exaggerated and he isn't nearly as influential in the development of KM as he claims. His whole "Commando" theme is overblown too.

He certainly seems to have the marketing down, though...

[Loki]

He certainly seems to have the marketing down, though...

Yeah, nice Flash animation on that site. Kudos!

[dok]

I'm currently training at a KMAA sponsored facility (5). I'm also curious as to whether or not there are any real differences between the styles ... i.e. I remember readin not too long ago a .pdf file published/released by Eyal Yanilov of IKMF claiming that KMAA techniques - particularly gun disarms - were outdated and dangerous. They alluded to knife disarms and "other" techniques as well but only the gun disarm was described in detail in that particular publication.

There's an Israeli Krav Maga sponsored facility that I just learned about - closer to me than the place I'm currently studying at. i'm considering switching over but would only really do so if there was an advantage in terms of training to be gotten from it - although the shortened commute would be nice too. Does anyone have any information on this?

[kior]

From what I've seen on the internet and discussed with instructors there are certainly stylistic differences between the organisations you list. Commando krav maga though as I understand it is basically a different system entirely.

[zen4me]

At my KM school, we fall under Krav Maga Worldwide (Levine's org). Haven't had any experience to date with the other 'flavors' yet, but would think this situation is similar to TMA's that have different names for their various flavors.

[battleweary]

At my KM school, we fall under Krav Maga Worldwide (Levine's org). Haven't had any experience to date with the other 'flavors' yet, but would think this situation is similar to TMA's that have different names for their various flavors.

Is that Darren Levine? Is that www.kravmaga.com (http://www.kravmaga.com) ?

Is that in LA? Is he a lawyer? I have heard that he is the true living Master of Krav Maga and that no-one comes close to him. I read that he spent five years in Israel training in Krav Maga.

Does anyone know anything about www.israelikravmaga.com (http://www.israelikravmaga.com) ? A friend of mine told me they are for law enforcement and military only. Is this true? Anyone know their rates? Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a lot of KM here on the East Coast. Any info is appreciated.

[CttnwdCombat]

Is that Darren Levine? Is that www.kravmaga.com (http://www.kravmaga.com) ?

Is that in LA? Is he a lawyer? I have heard that he is the true living Master of Krav Maga and that no-one comes close to him. I read that he spent five years in Israel training in Krav Maga.

Does anyone know anything about www.israelikravmaga.com (http://www.israelikravmaga.com) ? A friend of mine told me they are for law enforcement and military only. Is this true? Anyone know their rates? Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a lot of KM here on the East Coast. Any info is appreciated.


I mean no offense, but there is MUCH controversy over MR. Levine's experience. I have trained with a number of his instructors, inlcuding some fresh from Israel. This link will be a good start for your research - http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=361603. Don't take it as gospel, but do as much digging into each organization as you can before locking in. David Kahn of www.IsraeliKravMaga.com (http://www.IsraeliKravMaga.com) pretty much spearheaded the legal battle with Mr. Levine who attempted to Trademark Krav Maga and the current logo. This happened AFTER the trademark had been granted to someone else in Israel. So it appeared as though he was just trying to lock others out of the US market. Some say it was just a business move ohers say he was trying to block other org's from using what is common place in Israel here in the US, and I don't know much more about that. He did apparently seek a law suit against his primary instructor Eyal Yanilov for opening schools in the US, but that may just be more political stuff. Either an untrue rumor or the suit itself was politics.

There is a mess of politics involved, but my point is that there is MUCH debatable information re: his personal experience before starting KMWW. I suppose with people like Amir Perets and Sam Sade he could get great instruction inside his own group. That's what I would do. Again, this is assuming all the writings are true, which I don't really know. I suppose the bottom line is, go with what you can verify and train hard. I am not against Mr. Levine, I am just wary of anyone with that much controversy. But, that's just my way of doing things. Perhaps the controversy would be much smaller if he ere not so well known?!? For all intents and purposes, he may very well be phenomenal!

What I have discovered about Mr. Kahn and his group is all verifiable, they are will to show paperwork, including Nir Maman who works closely with them. Watch some YOuTube videos with Grandmaster Haim Gid'on at: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=haim.gidon&search_type
He is awesome!

Yaron Lichtestein, I was not impressed with his group. The skills look a lot like Moni Aizik's. Skilled, but not Krav Maga as I have come to know it. Lots of traditional grappling which does not fit into Imi's concepts.

I hope this helps!

[zen4me]

Is that Darren Levine? Is that www.kravmaga.com (http://www.kravmaga.com) ?

Is that in LA? Is he a lawyer? I have heard that he is the true living Master of Krav Maga and that no-one comes close to him. I read that he spent five years in Israel training in Krav Maga.


Yes, the KMAA Headquarters are in LA and as far as I know he is a Lawyer. But considering I don't know the man (I only know people that have trained with him directly), I can't say anything with certainty. Same for how long he trained in Israel.

I didn't join KMDC is a part of KMAA or take up Krav because of him. I joined because my experience with my Head Instructor and all of the Instructors at my school were top notch. I joined because I believe Krav offers me the best chance of survival if something were to happen.

Personally, I don't care about the politics of who owns what and where they own it, so long as it doesn't effect my training, my classmates training, or my Instructors training.

[Spork3245]

Commando Krav Maga is BS and a scam. Moni is a liar and a fake, no one should train with him.

The other groups all have their purpose. The problem I've found with KMWW is that they tend to "tone it down" from the intensity found in Israel. Many former KMWW members that have left their to come to our Gidon System (IKMA) school will tell you the same. The Krav Maga Federation is not bad at all, the only problem I've found is that they primarly teach "old" Krav Maga and seemingly refuse to update many of Imi's teachings, proudly stating things like "That's not what Imi taught!". IMO, the problem with the philosphy of stating things like "That's not what Imi taught!", is that you start to turn your reality-based fighting method into something that has stagnated for 1000+ years like Tang Soo Do (something I initially took before falling in love with Krav :)). A reality-based fighting system needs to constantly update, even if it's small variations. Look at stick defenses for IKMA vs Federation and WW for proof of this. The defense for over-hand and side attack (via stick/baseball bat) are different for "old krav", for IKMA (Gidon System) it is a single action, this single action will save you against a stick if the attacker is trained and attempts a faint from over-hand to side, or vice-versa. It is small variants like this that are the "differences" between our "groups". I should also note that Alan Feldman teaches at our school every Tuesday, so I do get a weekly dose of "old krav" and I am, by no means, talking down about it, as it is still highly effective and down right "amazing" IMO. I'd also like to note that KMWW does not teach true Retzev, a key element that makes Krav Maga "unstoppable".

Also, battleweary, http://www.israelikravmaga.com is my current school. I am an instructor there under David Kahn & Grand Master Haim Gidon. You do not have to be law enforcement or military to train with us. We do, however, sometimes have speciality seminars that only they may participate in. We have class 5 days per week (mon-thur & sat), if you're intrested in trying a class, by all means, contact us, we'd be more than happy to give you a free trial. :)

PS: Sorry, I'm really not trying to advertise, I just came upon these questions and wanted to offer my opinions/answers as a fellow Kravist and Instructor. :)

[Joab]

I think the one I trained in in Seattle was the one out of LA, as the LA school recommended the instructor and he was trained there. I wasn't all that impressed with the standards quite frankly, getting the yellow belt meant getting as little as 70% of it done correctly, is this the standard for Krav Maga or was the instructor really making the grading curve far too easy? All the other systems I studied required 100% accuracy for promotion to a higher belt.

[Mack]

I train in Israeli Krav Maga (IKMA), I can not say anything about the other organizations because I have not trained with them. My instructor used to train with another one of the other Krav organizations, he said the main differences that he has seen is things like how your foot is placed when kicking or knee striking. Also there is apperently more groundwork with the IKMA than other organizations. Also there is no requirement to be military or law enforcement to train with us. Just my two cents worth. Hope it helps.

[Spork3245]

I think the one I trained in in Seattle was the one out of LA, as the LA school recommended the instructor and he was trained there. I wasn't all that impressed with the standards quite frankly, getting the yellow belt meant getting as little as 70% of it done correctly, is this the standard for Krav Maga or was the instructor really making the grading curve far too easy? All the other systems I studied required 100% accuracy for promotion to a higher belt.

This is why (and no offence to anyone) the IKMF and IKMA more-or-less hate Levine and his organization. About 8 years ago, Levine brought many of his "American Krav Maga Black Belts" with him to Israel. The Israeli Black Belts destroied the Americans. So the "masters" at the time told all of the Israeli's to take their belts off so the Americans would not know what level they were fighting... The American Black Belts couldn't even stand up to the Israeli Orange Belts.
I don't know how serious the American IKMF train, but at IKMA in the US, David Kahn does not "give" belts, you earn them. Our goal is so that an Orange Belt over here is every bit as good as an Orange Belt over there, etc.


I train in Israeli Krav Maga (IKMA), I can not say anything about the other organizations because I have not trained with them. My instructor used to train with another one of the other Krav organizations, he said the main differences that he has seen is things like how your foot is placed when kicking or knee striking. Also there is apperently more groundwork with the IKMA than other organizations. Also there is no requirement to be military or law enforcement to train with us. Just my two cents worth. Hope it helps.

Mack, you're from Huntsville, AL? I'm guessing that Ryan is your instructor? He's a great guy, knows his stuff and did very well during the instructors course in December, as well as the 3-day seminar David gave a couple of months ago. :)

[Mack]

Mack, you're from Huntsville, AL? I'm guessing that Ryan is your instructor? He's a great guy, knows his stuff and did very well during the instructors course in December, as well as the 3-day seminar David gave a couple of months ago. :)[/quote]

Yep.. I started training with Ryan back in Feb... I already had a martial art background mostly judo/jujitsu and shotokan. I tried a class and was hooked! It was everything I was looking for. Ryan is talking about trying to get David down for a training session. I hope it happens would love to meet and train with him.

[kior]

IMO. I'd also like to note that KMWW does not teach true Retzev, a key element that makes Krav Maga "unstoppable".

Hi there,

Could you expand on this point a bit? I train IKMF and am familiar with the term but am very interested as to what you mean by this?

[Spork3245]

Hi there,

Could you expand on this point a bit? I train IKMF and am familiar with the term but am very interested as to what you mean by this?

Retzev is something you need to see. I really don't know how to explain it in text, and I truely don't think it can be properly explained in text.
Retsev literally means "continuous attack". In proper Krav Maga, retsev is the basis for everything we do. If you watch David Kahn's youtube video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRFR7HB5Kho ) @ about 28 seconds in, when he moves you'll see that Dave throws his punches and kicks on the half-beat. In otherwords, he'll start to punch as soon as his kick has made impact, not after it touches the ground, and he'll start to kick as soon as his hand/fist touches, not waiting for his arm to fully come back. IKMF (in the U.S.A., at least) and KMAA (World-Wide) do not teach this. I truely do not understand how they can even call what they do "Krav Maga" without teaching retsev the way Imi created it. It's unfortunate that most Krav Maga schools are just cheap imitations of what Krav Maga truely is...

[girlbug2]

Retsev literally means "continuous attack". In proper Krav Maga, retsev is the basis for everything we do. If you watch David Kahn's youtube video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRFR7HB5Kho ) @ about 28 seconds in, when he moves you'll see that Dave throws his punches and kicks on the half-beat. In otherwords, he'll start to punch as soon as his kick has made impact, not after it touches the ground, and he'll start to kick as soon as his hand/fist touches, not waiting for his arm to fully come back. IKMF (in the U.S.A., at least) and KMAA (World-Wide) do not teach this. I truely do not understand how they can even call what they do "Krav Maga" without teaching retsev the way Imi created it. It's unfortunate that most Krav Maga schools are just cheap imitations of what Krav Maga truely is...

Greetings Spork.

At my KMWW school in Huntington Beach, we have never used the term "retzev", it is true. However the principles of continuous attack and overwhelming destruction of the opponent are taught to students from day one. The link you provided showed pretty much what is taught at my school, at about the same speed: in fact, some of the instructors (notably the head instructor, Beau Durocher) tend to perform those moves even faster.

As a lowly orange belt, and one who has not trained at any other KM school or in any KM system other than KMWW, I realize that I am not qualified to pass judgement on other systems and organizations. I can only report what I have observed so far, which is, that what is called retzev is practiced and taught every day.

Perhaps as a black belt you have visited Krav Maga schools throughout the country, but how can you assert that you have been to enough of them to pass judgement on what goes on in most of them (however many that would be) as a cheap imitation? How do you know that you have seen is what is taught in most schools?

Just as there are continuous debates that go on between factions of other styles (EPAK, TKD, BJJ, etc) as to who has the "authentic" and "original" version, so I see that there is nothing new under the sun here, either. It would seem that Krav is also cursed with this martial arts affliction.

[Spork3245]

Greetings Spork.

At my KMWW school in Huntington Beach, we have never used the term "retzev", it is true. However the principles of continuous attack and overwhelming destruction of the opponent are taught to students from day one. The link you provided showed pretty much what is taught at my school, at about the same speed: in fact, some of the instructors (notably the head instructor, Beau Durocher) tend to perform those moves even faster.

As a lowly orange belt, and one who has not trained at any other KM school or in any KM system other than KMWW, I realize that I am not qualified to pass judgement on other systems and organizations. I can only report what I have observed so far, which is, that what is called retzev is practiced and taught every day.

Perhaps as a black belt you have visited Krav Maga schools throughout the country, but how can you assert that you have been to enough of them to pass judgement on what goes on in most of them (however many that would be) as a cheap imitation? How do you know that you have seen is what is taught in most schools?

Just as there are continuous debates that go on between factions of other styles (EPAK, TKD, BJJ, etc) as to who has the "authentic" and "original" version, so I see that there is nothing new under the sun here, either. It would seem that Krav is also cursed with this martial arts affliction.


If your instructor teaches true retsev, he has trained, extensively, in Israel, under Haim Gidon. Retsev, in it's true form, is not in KMAA (World-Wide) or IKMF's (American) curriculum, period. World-Wide also does not teach "getting off the line" against outside attacks, or the proper, modern, defenses for being attacked by a "stick". I'm sorry if I've offended you, but there is no argument here - it is a simple fact, and I'm sure I'll get flak from you and others for saying this, but, again, it is a simple fact that that there is a wrong way, and a correct way, and when it comes down to it the vast majority of "Krav Maga World-Wide" schools teach, more-or-less, "Krav Maga Lite". If you want proof of this, go ask Darren how his Black Belts did against the IKMA's Orange Belts a few years back.

Also, for the record, I have no real qualms with the KMF and IKMF orginizations. They choose to be "traditional" and not use, or want, the updated materials - which is fine honestly. I just, unfortunately, have little love for World-Wide - but I don't want to get in a pissing match so I'll stop now.

[girlbug2]

I, too will stop because I do not foresee this thread going in a good direction.

Peace be with you.

[F-factory]

If your instructor teaches true retsev, he has trained, extensively, in Israel, under Haim Gidon. Retsev, in it's true form, is not in KMAA (World-Wide) or IKMF's (American) curriculum, period.
Hi Spork,

I have never encountered the term "retzev" in my IKMF training, but from what you have described and what is shown by David Kahn in the clip, it is exactly the same as what is coined within the IKMF as "Broken Rythm" and "Shattered Rythm", i.e. your attacks come continuously, without waiting for the previous attack to land and are not disconected.
This was one of the first principles I learnt back in 1998 at a seminar with Eyal Yanilov.
These principles are part of the Graduate 4 curricullum for testing, although most instructors I know teach them to students fairly early on in their training.

Greetings
John.

[Kravguy]

Enjoyed the thread and some excellent points to consider on all grounds thanks

[Horribilis]

What about the Krav Maga Alliance?

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[blp03]

What about the Krav Maga Alliance?

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I'd like to know this as well.

[Cali Gal]

They are not the same. I only know the ones in Cali and NY. KMWW (Daren Levine's gang) is more like Tebow (little technique more LA fitness), IKMA (I have no idea), IKMF and Haim Zut are the best in my experience. There are so many bad Krav Maga instructors around. Stick with the IKMF or Haim Zut and I have tried them all! Krav Maga Alliance is a break off of KMWW (it is better than KMWW but over proiced and John Whitman is a great instructor but not in the same league as IKMF and Haim Zut.