Hi

Does anybody know what the difference is between cutting with a japanese sword and chinese sword. I don't know anything about the chinese swords, but what I've seen in chinese MA movies.

Are all the chinese swords one handed? And how are they forged? What's the idea on it.

And since I'm here, what about the korean swords?

/Yari

You might also ask on www.swordforum.com or www.bladeforums.com.

Hi, 'Yari',
The Sword Forum mentioned above is a good reference. What you'll find is that Japanese Swords and forging methods were historically originally imported from China. "Ken" is a Nihongo transliteration of the Mandarin word "Jian", meaing a double-edged long sword. The early Japanese Ken were direct imports from the Spring & Autumn period, then later throughout the Han Dynasty from the Middle Kingdom (or "China", if you will). Originally, Ken/Jian were Bronze, later, Iron, and by the Han Dynasty, wrought steel. Eventually, some different 2-handed sabres (Zhan Dao, Zhan Ma Dao--"Cut-Horse-Sabre") from around the end of the Han Dynasty (Three Kingdoms era)made thier way to Japan via envoys from around 250-300 AD/CE. There were more to come in later imports, and Japanese warriors & smiths finally started producing imitations of thier own by around 500-700 AD/CE (during the Tang Dynasty in China), and the Japanese referred to them as "To", a Japanese transliteration of the Chinese word "Dao", meaning knife, or sabre. The Japanse later used the terms Tachi, Daito, and eventually Katana for thier 2-handed sabres. Thus, a very abbreviated history of the infamous "Samurai Sword". Like most things considered traditional Japanese culture, another example demonstrating it was borrowed and slightly altered from Chinese origin.
Since your question was in regards to use, also consider not just the tools, but also the methods originate in China, as well. An example, Yoshitsune no Minamoto, a famous Japanese hero from 12 Century Japan learned swordsmanship in his youth while held captive in a Buddhist Monastary by the ruling Taira clan. Japanese legends prefer to say Yoshitsune learned swordsmanship & martial arts from Tengu ("Crow-goblins"), but historically, his instructors were more likely to be militant monks from China. This is an important factor in considering martial development in Japan--it followed along with the flow of Buddhism from China to Japan. The old military classics of Japan studied by Samurai youth were Chinese military classics. Early Jujutsu ryu, both in Samurai clans & amoung civilians find thier origin in trade & folks traveling & relocating (for whatever various reasons) between/from China. Even Sumo, the sport that is part of the identity of Japanese culture comes from Chinese Wrestlers a long, long time ago.
Even Karate is a very recent import from China. Originally, some Okinawans studied some martial arts indiginous to Fujian (Fukien) province in south China, from at least as far back as the 16th century, perhaps before. The Japanese only started learning it from the Okinawans within the last 120 years, because the Okinawan Civilians were originally learning it from the Chinese to protect themselves from Japanese invaders. The Characters for Kara-Te originally meant "China-Hand", but Imperialists in Pre-War-Era Japan (1920's) egocentrically changed the characters & meaning to "Empty Hand", thus maintaining the same pronounciation.
So, when you are trying to find the differences between Chinese and Japanese fencing/swordsmanship, consider that the differences in actual usage really aren't that significant, as there are many different methods, depending on the tools used, and many different systems/styles/schools in both Chinese & Japanese swordsmanship. When you get down to the nuts & bolts (strategy & technique), it's still about cutting the opponent down without getting killed yourself. Sure, there are differences in the specifics of how each tool (weapon) is used, but the aim is still the same--survival. Although most any teacher of any system is convinced that thier method is superior, don't get stuck in the packaging of a style, the outer-frame of culture, tradition, and language--the essential meaning & practical principles are really not so different.
So, consider that, & just keep practicing.

Thanks Dennis

This was great, I was just curious about the technique. The few demonstrations I've seen with "chinese" swords have had a lot of jab's and straight attacks, were as the japanese don't have that much (they do, but not that much).

Another thing I was thinking about was the forging. Because I had heard the the japanese probably had got there forging techniques from korea. So I thought that maybe there was some differenses between chinese forging techniques and japanese, since that will also define the way the sword would be used.

/Yari

Hi, Yari,
Thanks for the reply, glad to offer some help. The Korean origin for Japanese forging methods is less likely, as Koryo borrowed alot from Chinese dynasties as well. It might seem likely because Japan & Korea are closer Geographically than China & Japan, but Korean cultural development followed China, as did Japan's. Ancient Korean & Japanese culture is linked in pre-history (as evidenced by linguistics), far before the Iron age.
Your question regarding distinction between Chinese & Japanese swords & swordsmanship is difficult to accurately answer briefly. Technique does differ between the current most popular surviving swordsmanship methods from China & Japan, but bear in mind that method & strategy is partly dependent on the tools (weapons) used. Surviving Japanese swordsmanship schools have developed over several generations in Japan, but the original roots come from China, though direct lineages may be impossible to specifically trace over the course of the last 1,500 years, when the Japanese began using the 2 handed sabre (To/Tachi/Daito/Katana) almost exclusively.
In contrast, the 2 most popular Chinese swords currently in practice are the light, one-handed double-edged straight swords (Jian), and the one-handed "willow-leaf" sabres (Dao, sometimes called "broadswords"); although it is important to bear in mind that the range of different sword designs in Chinese history is incredibly diverse. The diversity of different sword designs pales to the immense diversity of different swordsmanship styles in China, even those still extant.
Even in Japan, with roughly the same design of sword, there are over a hundred different traditional (old) schools of swordsmanship surviving. The Japanese short sabre (Shoto/wakazashi) and great-sabre (No-Dachi) are basically different sizes of the same sword design. The primary function of the 2 handed sabre is its heavy cutting power and deep slashes, intended to sever body parts or open the body cavity, though thrusting is also effective.
The Chinese single handed sabre (Dao) is designed for fast, widely arcing/circular slashing techniques, and allow greater mobility for practical cutting than the heavier 2 handed sabre. The single handed straight sword most popular in Chinese styles for the last few hundred years is a light weapon, not intended for battlefield use, but is primarily a "dueling" sword, where combatants are unarmored. The Jian developed from a heavy, double handed battlefield weapon (very similar to medieval European long swords), but eventually diminished in size to the aristocratic, scholar's weapon common today. It's primary function is thrusting & fast, surgically placed cuts, and requires far more training for effective use than the Dao.
I hope this offers some kind of starting place for the distinctions between Japanese & Chinese swordsmanship. Glad to help someone with common interests. :D

Thank You Dennis

This was great!

Respectfully
Yari

Originally posted by Yari

This was great!


Yes, this is making for very interesting reading. I've studied iaido and Tai Chi and trying to see the connections between the sword work is making my head hurt!

To give an honest answer...it depends on the style of sword and the user.

I have seen some Chinese swords that are two handed and are used much like a Japanese katana.

I think you are speaking of a Tai Chi Chuan style straight sword and that is used is a jabbing and cutting with the tip manner.

The katana cut uses the entire length of the blade to cut with.

MY Two Cents,
Jeremy Bays

Hi, Jeremy,
Thanks for the input. The "Tai Chi Sword" you mention is called "Jian" in Mandarin, and it's use is not limited to only Taijiquan swordplay. There are literally hundreds of different schools of Chinese swordsmanship still extant, only a handful of those are considered part of the Taiji family styles. Admittedly, Taiji swordplay styles are probably the most popularly practiced.
Any particular sword, whether Japanese Katana, Chinese Dao, Chinese Jian, Italian Rapier, Norse Longsword, whatever, have different uses for different lengths of the blade, generally broken down into 3 sections. The 3rd closest to the guard & handle is usually not as sharp as the middle section; the closer you get to the handle/guard for any particular sword, the cutting uses more leverage from body turning. The last 3rd of the blade towards the tip is the sharpest, as it performs a majority of the cutting from slashes & thrusts. The back/spine/or flat of the blade is used for deflection--using any portion of the blade to deflect an oncoming strike from another weapon is avoided, so that you don't damage the sword edge, because you want to cut the opponent, not thier weapon. While blocking sword to sword looks neat & dramatic for movies, the most practical methods of real swordsmanship involve evasive footwork & timing for counter strikes; parries with the sword blade are final options to avoid being cut down. Weapon to weapon blocking cause chips in the blade edge, which ruin the cutting ability of a sword.
Just speaking in generalities here, but these generalities are fairly universal, whatever the culture, whatever the sword design, whatever the style of swordsmanship one could reference. I hope this helps clarify. Thanks! :asian:

Originally posted by YiLiJingLei


Any particular sword, whether Japanese Katana, Chinese Dao, Chinese Jian, Italian Rapier, Norse Longsword, whatever, have different uses for different lengths of the blade, generally broken down into 3 sections.

I didn't know this about the Norse longsword. I thought it was more of a hack-hack weapon, and not cut. Much more because of the weight. But I've only held replica Norse swords in my hand, and they weren't sharp.

/Yari

Axes hack, swords cleave.

There is a point on a sword a few inches from the tip called the "point of percussion" or sweet spot. this is the part of the blade you would use to cut with. Slashing and draw cuts can be done with a straight bladed sword as it can with a curved blade. Thrusting becomes a little easier with a straight bladed sword than a curved one due to the focal point of the pressure on the blade while thrusting. If you have a chance some day do some test cutting with a few different swords, you will note what a great differance there is between each and you begin to see when and where each blade was ment to be used.



Despair Bear

But do you cut in the same way as a japanese sword; the cicular movement?

/Yari

YiLiJIngLei's post in regards to the sharpening of a blade is right on target !!

Also, one of my pet-peeves is seeing expert swordsman smashing blades together in movies. This was done with the rapier which was a stabbing weapon but not with other sword as it would damage the blade.

David Lowry in his book "BOKKEN" says that several samurai would take a bokken into battle because the battle was too hard on the katana blades.

One other rant......when you cut with a katana, you start out making contact with the section of the sword that is closest to the handle and then use the entire blade to complete the cut.

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

PS- Thanks for the information about the Jian sword. I was able to look through Yang Jwing-Ming's book on the sword form.

One other rant......when you cut with a katana, you start out making contact with the section of the sword that is closest to the handle and then use the entire blade to complete the cut.

Hmm, ok, but not on the battlefield. I suspect most cuts were made farther out on the blade than on the closest one-third. It is simply a matter of range. Perhaps ideal tamishigiri cutting is done this way, but not against an opponent

How about the single handed cut done upon drawing the blade (iaido type)? That is definately not done with the closest area to the hilt.

Lamont

Originally posted by Blindside


How about the single handed cut done upon drawing the blade (iaido type)? That is definately not done with the closest area to the hilt.



I've been told that on one handed cut's that your only using about the 1/4 of the outer part of the blade, ie. wrist eyes and so on...


/Yari

anybody know anything about the story behind the bagua broadsword. ive seen some that must have been over 4 feet in length and they are not light. seems like a battlefield weapon, but why bagua?

The BaGua Dao uses alot of body movement & stepping for the cutting methods. Cutting is not performed the same way as a Japanese katana--the cutting methods used with a Bagua Dao are more carving than the swiping cuts used in most kenjutsu ryu, which in contrast use more of the swing of the arm from the shoulder--with a big, heavy Bagua Dao, that just doesn't work, and isn't the intended use of the weapon. Often, one hand holds the handle, and either the body or the free hand will often support the cutting action by bracing along the spine, using the blood groove as a notch to control the cleaving angle. This can't be performed well with the flimsy, tin-foil sabres most commonly seen today in martial arts supply shops/catalogs, because they cater to competition-contemporary wu-shu, which has nothing to do with application of this particular weapon. Finding teachers that really understand how this weapon was actually intended to be used is very difficult these days, although there are many that offer contemporary/sport/competition routines for it, which have been completely fabricated in the last 30yrs. Hope that helps get some perspective on this widely misunderstood weapon.

Once again, this is all fascinating information for us lurkers--I wish I had something to contribute. In Modern Arnis we use the bolo, a machete-like sword, but it's not emphasized--we mostly consider it another variation of stick fighting. The stick material was heavily influenced by Spanish fencing.

To reiterate, Cutting with the Bagua Dao is performed more by the practicioner turning thier body & stepping around the heavy weapon, allowing its weight & the body turning to perform the deep cleaving cuts. Sure, you could say that using stepping & waist turning are of paramount importance when cutting with a Japanese Katana, but not nearly to the degree as seen with real Bagua Dao application. It's one of those things where you have to really see it to appreciate it, unfurtunately, it's very hard to find folks that really know how to use the big Bagua Dao these days. Hope that helps clarify. :asian:

Often, one hand holds the handle, and either the body or the free hand will often support the cutting action by bracing along the spine, using the blood groove as a notch to control the cleaving angle.

It isn't a "blood groove."

Lamont

Hi, Lamont,
Actually, the tranlation from Mandarin is "Blood-Groove" for what I was describing. Perhaps the 74 year old 5th Generation Cheng Bagua Teacher from Beijing that explained it to me didn't know what he was talking about. If it isn't a "Blood Groove", then could you please explain what it is?
Thank you for your insight.

Wow ...a very nice discussion going on here...

This is my first visit to this section of martial talk...

I don't have the depth of knowledge that some of you obviously have...but I would simply like to add that several cuts with the Katana are directed forward...that is an arc that intercepts a body part followed by a thrust upon impact (sort of like slicing bread)...

But this is only one method of cutting...certainly there are a miriad of ways to use that weapon...

:asian:
chufeng

Originally posted by YiLiJingLei

-the cutting methods used with a Bagua Dao are more carving than the swiping cuts used in most kenjutsu ryu, which in contrast use more of the swing of the arm from the shoulder--with a big, heavy Bagua Dao, that just doesn't work, and isn't the intended use of the weapon.

I'm not sure, but it sounds like the stuff we learned in Arnis. I know Arnisador commented on this, but we've learned alot of classical stuff in our Modern Arnis classes. It's a couple of years ago, but Knifeman.dk can elaborate on this.

What I find intriging (sp?) is that movment in a japanese sword is based on the center of the body. While I feel that the movement in the "arnis" approach is more centered around the contact point.
Even though the basis of the movement is so different, they both flow "with the force".

/Yari

Actually, the tranlation from Mandarin is "Blood-Groove" for what I was describing. Perhaps the 74 year old 5th Generation Cheng Bagua Teacher from Beijing that explained it to me didn't know what he was talking about. If it isn't a "Blood Groove", then could you please explain what it is?

OK, in some ways I just shoved my foot in my mouth, but I was taught that his groove should more appropriately be called a fuller. I have heard several people mention that the Chinese do call this a "blood groove" but I have never been able to find the Chinese term that translates to this. Could you provide the Mandarin term to me? I guess I object to the term "blood groove" because it indicates that its function is related to blood flow rather than reduction of the weight of the sword.

Thanks,

Lamont

Not Just reduction on sword weight but also strengthining (sp?) the blade. Kinda the same idea as corigated steel.


Despair Bear

Hi, Lamont,
"Fuller", "Blood-Groove", whatever you'd like to call it, it serves the same purpose, a means to help break the vacuum when a blade enters a body--not to get too gory here, but that's what it's for. The Mandarin term is 'Xie Tsou'. Xie="Blood". Tsou="Trough", or "Groove".
For many cutting techniques with the big Bagua-Dao, the lip between the spine/back of the blade & the Fuller/Blood-Groove is gripped by the finger/thumb tips to control the blade edge & cutting angle. The hand on the spine of the blade often slides forward & back along the length of the blood-groove depending on leverage for the cutting angle needed. Though using this heavy of a weapon does require some gripping strength, more emphasis for actual usage is on the complex stepping & body-coiling/turning methods in Bagua Zhang. Because the blade of a Bagua Dao is so wide & long, the fuller/blood-groove isn't there so much to make the blade lighter, it's there to control the blade & to make it a little easier to recover it once it's cleaved into the target (messy work). I hope this helps.
:asian:

"Fuller", "Blood-Groove", whatever you'd like to call it, it serves the same purpose, a means to help break the vacuum when a blade enters a body--not to get too gory here, but that's what it's for. The Mandarin term is 'Xie Tsou'. Xie="Blood". Tsou="Trough", or "Groove".

Thank you for the term, but now I'm going to disagree with you again. :p

There is no "vacuum" in the human body. If anything it is either under positive pressure, or equal pressure with the surrounding environment. Have you seen pictures of a person with a cut abdomen? Their entrails are literally spilling (bursting) out of their body, because they are actually quite tightly packed. If you penetrate the chest cavity, the lungs and air passage would neatly do the trick of equalizing pressure. Muscles and tendons are also tightly packed into their sheaths, that is fundamental to their function. A weapon becomes lodged in bone or when the muscle tightens around the blade. A fuller would solve neither problem.

Also, most of the fullers that I have seen are on slashing weapons; dao; katana; cut and thrust swords; etc. A slashing weapon is cleaving its own path in the body, something that would be very difficult to creat a vacuum in, your escape path is already formed. If the vacuum issue was truly an problem, your thrusting weapons would be having the greatest difficulty, because their entrance is naturally the same size as the blade cross-section. But the jian, rapiers, and sideswords do not typically have fullers.

A much better explanation is the reduction in weight of a slashing weapon, that also provides a minimal decrease in structural integrity. I don't think a fuller makes a blade stronger, but it makes a blade stronger compared to the same weight blade that is unfullered. And there is a limit to this of course. Diamond cross-sections seem to be favored for most pure thrusting weapons.

Lamont

PS Not trying to be obnoxious here, now I have to go respond to a fire....

I think that the terminology for the groove differs depending on where the blade was made...

Blood groove in China....Fuller in Europe...bottom line, it's a groove.

In some blades it WAS used to reduce the weight of the blade to #1) Balance the blade to make it easier to control, and
#2) To make it easier to develop blade velocity with less effort...
net result...increased efficiency.

But in the PaGua Dao...I believe the groove was more to control the weapon...a place to put the fingers...

The diamond shape of the straight sword not only provides for a sturdy shape, but also creates a hole in the blood vessels and organs that will not seal...a single thrust into a vital target WILL insure the demise of the opponent because of the shape of the wound...

Now, to throw a wrench in this very interesting discussion...how does a kanji or dragon carved into a blade improve its performance, or does it?

:asian:
chufeng

Originally posted by chufeng

how does a kanji or dragon carved into a blade improve its performance, or does it?

:asian:
chufeng

Scientifically the answer has to be that it would degrade the "performance". I define a part of the preformance as to compair it with a sword that didn't have anything carved into it.

What happens is when you carve something into a peice of metal, your making a edge , either on the side or in the middel of it. This edge is alot more sensitive to metal fatigue.
If you put a notch in a stick the probablility that it'll break there is 100%, if the stick homogeneous all the way through.

Of course a notch in a sword would give the same result, specially if the notch is on the blade side and not on the tang side.

Concerning carvings and the like on the blade. It doesn't have the same effect as the notch, but it can be compared to a small notch, and as time goes by and it's used, that sword would have a greater chance of breaking/bending in that area.

Another issue is corrosion. Which eats it's way through any sword. It's harder to keep out of the way when there are carvings and so on the blade. And corrosion will weaken the sword really fast.

There a lot of parameters concerning the lenght of life on a sword, and some of these might come before a problem with the carvings (or the like). But concentrated on the carving; no carving is best.

All whole other ballgame is if you believe that objects are beings, and that a certain kanji or picture will enhance that beings powers. Well, like I said it's another ballgame, and it isn't mine. But maybe somebody else could elaborate on this.

/Yari

yilijinglei

thanks for the bagua broadsword description, im really getting a mental picture of the sword's application now.

and as far as the blood groove issue goes, i dont know the history, but i can say that a groove would strengthen the lateral flex in the blade and would also help avoid the "vaccum effect" which is actually very possible, blindside. all that positive internal pressure created by the organs, combined with the surface tension of the liquid substance, could very easily put the "suck" on a planar surface (blade with no groove). kind of like getting your shoe stuck in the mud. a thin groove could remedy that possibility if it is carved in correctly.

slashing the abdominal wall might cause the entrails to "unpack", but a direct thrust would not, and would require a strong pull, in order to retrieve the weapon. i have a hard time getting my fork to come out of a raw potato (i dont bake, microwave only folks)



:)

but a direct thrust would not, and would require a strong pull, in order to retrieve the weapon. i have a hard time getting my fork to come out of a raw potato (i dont bake, microwave only folks)

I agree, that is part of my argument. If this was the case then the weapons most likely to have fullers/blood grooves would be thrusting weapons, they do not. Look at jians, rapiers, estocs, or gladius (admittedly western fuller technology seems to appear with the Norman's slashing weapons, so this could be a poor example). I'll also go back and look through some references to find thrusting weapons with fullers.

I actually have a rather disgusting experiment to look at this planned. I'll let you know how it goes. :cool:


Lamont

Hi, Lamont,
Thank you for your scientific interjections. Some of your points are worth considering.
For examples of straight bladed swords with fullers/Blood Grooves (does it make you cringe every time I reference that term? ;) ), take note that the older Chinese Jian, the heavier battlefield versions (dating back to the Han Dynasty and before, to the Warring States Period), were often 2-handed or hand-and-a-half weapons, and were commonly designed with this feature.
Also reference Norse Long Swords, which were both cut & thrust weapons, most of which were designed with a wide fuller/blood-groove along the middle length of the blade.
Please also consider various spear and pole-arm blades from various cultures. The Japanese Spear, or 'Yari', on most examples, have a very deep Blood-Groove. Also reference countless bayonett designs. Bayonetts & Yari are primarily thrusting weapons, and I would argue that the purpose of the groove along the blade length has very little to with lightening it's weight.
The weight of heavy steel for real weapons is a benefit to penetrating armor, flesh, & bone, weather sword or pole-arm. Learning how to handle that weight, learning how to let the tool do the job, is one of the tricks to making them practical. Theatrical or sport weapons don't count here, where lightness is important for either a flamboyant display, or for scoring points. Just a different perspective.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. :asian:

Also reference Norse Long Swords, which were both cut & thrust weapons, most of which were designed with a wide fuller/blood-groove along the middle length of the blade.

Some of them were cut and thrust, I've seen two samples personally that had almost square tips that would have been useless on the thrust. I didn't add the cut-and-thrust swords to this argument because they were inconclusive regarding their use in cutting or thrusting, you could argue them either way. As a result I didn't mention the later hand-and-a-half swords that used FULLERS (:D) either.

The weight of heavy steel for real weapons is a benefit to penetrating armor, flesh, & bone, weather sword or pole-arm. Learning how to handle that weight, learning how to let the tool do the job, is one of the tricks to making them practical. Theatrical or sport weapons don't count here, where lightness is important for either a flamboyant display, or for scoring points.

I agree that weight is important, but so is speed of recovery and velocity of the weapon. I absolutely with you regarding the difference between real and sport weapons, which is why I didn't cite any sport weapons. (One of my greatest pet peeves is the whippy spring steel "wushu" blades. Just the sound makes me grit my teeth.)

Good discussion, and thanks for the pointers regarding the yari, and I'll have to look up the bayonets (neither of my bayonets have fullers).

Lamont

estocs, or gladius

blindside, what are these?

The Gladius:
The is the short thrusting sword of the Roman infantryman. Over its lifespan it varied from being wasp waisted (mainz style) to straight sided (pompeii). It is most familiar to the public as being used in the Gladiator movie with Russel Crow. (Incidentally, the term "gladiator" comes from the base word of "gladius.") It was a short one-handed weapon primarily using thrusting techniques, though the gladiators may have used them differently than the legions did.


Estoc description is pulled from the HACA site (its a pretty thorough description):

The Estoc
A form of long, rigid, pointed, triangular or square bladed and virtually edgeless sword designed for thrusting into plate-armor was the estoc. Called a stocco in Italian, estoque in Spanish, a tuck in English, Panzerstecher or Dreiecker in German, and a kanzer in Eastern Europe. They were used with two hands and similar to great-swords (but were unrelated to later rapiers). They were used in two hands with the second hand often gripping the blade. Some were sharpened only near the point and others might have one or two large round hand guards. Rapiers are sometimes mistakenly referred to as tucks, and there is evidence that during the Renaissance some rapiers may have been referred to as such by the English. In French "estoc" itself means to thrust.

Lamont