Reverse & Opposite

[Rob_Broad]

I was watching a video tape last nite of SGM Parker teaching a class and he mentioned Reverse & Opposites. I really enjoyed his definition on the 2, I would like to see what other people think.

[kenpo3631]

I really enjoyed his definition on the 2

On the 2? Short form 2? I am sooooooooooooo confused:idunno:

[Rob_Broad]

For those who need a crayon drawn map to figure out the initial post. I would like to see what you believe the differences are between Reverse and Opposite are in American Kenpo.

[kenpo3631]

Crayola I hope...

Just wanted to know what the "2" was....:shrug:


Sometimes I wonder if it is the air up there that make some 10 up and 2 down....:confused:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

For those who need a crayon drawn map to figure out the initial post. I would like to see what you believe the differences are between Reverse and Opposite are in American Kenpo.

Well,

Based on your response to the other guy I'd say you've killed this good thread with some unnecessary negative energy, but I will say this. One of my favorite aspects of opposites and reverses working together is the double check factor that occurs while blocking from one side to the other. A simple idea that produces amazing results.

jb:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by jbkenpo



Well,

Based on your response to the other guy I'd say you've killed this good thread with some unnecessary negative energy, but I will say this. One of my favorite aspects of opposites and reverses working together is the double check factor that occurs while blocking from one side to the other. A simple idea that produces amazing results.

jb:asian:

I response to the other guy was put that way because a simple question was asked and made to seem impossible to understand. To anyone who was offended, I am sorry.

The initial question is what is the difference between Reverse and Opposite. I know where the discussion is going to lead, to double factoring which we will start a proper thread for in a sort while. Would love to see what people think the differences between the Reverse and Opposites are. I had even asked GoldenDragon not to answer yet so some of the less experienced people could take a stab at it. There is a very valuable lesson in here that many people have yet not learned.

[kenpo_cory]

Ah yes, opposite and reverse. Well, since I consider myself to be one of the less experienced in kenpo being only a second brown, I'll take a stab at this. I'm going to do this on a very elementary level. Reverse motion by definition would be returning along the same path that was previously traveled. Example: from a horse stance step back with the left foot into a right neutral bow. Reverse of this would be sliding the left foot forward back into a horse stance. Opposite motion is a little more involved and has more choices of motion. Example: step back with the left foot into a right neutral bow. Some of the opposites of this motion would be stepping forward with the left foot into a left neutral bow, (opposite direction) stepping back with the right foot into a left neutral bow, (opposite foot) or stepping forward with the right foot into a right neutral bow, (opposite foot and opposite direction). Opposite and reverse motion gets a lot more involved that the simple explanation I gave. :)

[kenpo3631]

Opposite:

To be situated in pairs on an axis with each member being separated from the other by half the circumference of the axis

Example: Right and Left inward blocks.

Reverse:

Effecting reverse movement

Example: Backhammerfist strike and forward underhand reverse hammerfist strike.

Simple enough?:asian:

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

Opposite:

To be situated in pairs on an axis with each member being separated from the other by half the circumference of the axis

Example: Right and Left inward blocks.

Reverse:

Effecting reverse movement

Example: Backhammerfist strike and forward underhand reverse hammerfist strike.

Simple enough?:asian:

Yes, now a question for you from a kenpo rookie.

What would be the reverse of the Inward blocks and what's the opposite of a back hammerfist strike?

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Klondike93



Yes, now a question for you from a kenpo rookie.

What would be the reverse of the Inward blocks and what's the opposite of a back hammerfist strike?

Reverse of an inwards block is an outwards extended block (think Shielding Hammer), the opposite of a back hammerfist strike is a back hammerfirst strike with the other hand.

Ian.

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by satans.barber



Reverse of an inwards block is an outwards extended block (think Shielding Hammer), the opposite of a back hammerfist strike is a back hammerfirst strike with the other hand.

Ian.

Since he wasn't specific here's a thought, what if the inward block wasn't a hammering inward block (as taught to beginners to teach the phonetics of motion), but was a thrusting inward block? Then what would be the reverse motion?

jb:asian:

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by jbkenpo



Since he wasn't specific here's a thought, what if the inward block wasn't a hammering inward block (as taught to beginners to teach the phonetics of motion), but was a thrusting inward block? Then what would be the reverse motion?

jb:asian:

Good question!

I suppose you could do a thrusting outwards block, although I can't think of a time where I've ever seen one used.

With an inwards block you cover your center line as you block, with an outwards block you don't, so generally I don't think thrusting one out a long way would be a good idea, it's wasted motion. Better to use the opposite arm with an inwards block.

Maybe this is what Mr. Parker was saying about opposites and reverses in the first place?

Ian.

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by satans.barber



Reverse of an inwards block is an outwards extended block (think Shielding Hammer), the opposite of a back hammerfist strike is a back hammerfirst strike with the other hand.

Ian.

But there is always more that one opposite. Opposite hand, opposite direction, opposite hand and direction.

[kenpo_cory]

Wooooo, Hoooooo! I'm an orange belt now! :D

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by jbkenpo



Since he wasn't specific here's a thought, what if the inward block wasn't a hammering inward block (as taught to beginners to teach the phonetics of motion), but was a thrusting inward block? Then what would be the reverse motion?

jb:asian:

Yeah, I don't think I'm familiar with a thrusting inward block. I understood an inward block to start from the outside and diagonally move inward. So would a thrusting inward block be like a punch crossing your body or something? Forgive my ignorance.

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by satans.barber



Good question!

I suppose you could do a thrusting outwards block, although I can't think of a time where I've ever seen one used.

With an inwards block you cover your center line as you block, with an outwards block you don't, so generally I don't think thrusting one out a long way would be a good idea, it's wasted motion. Better to use the opposite arm with an inwards block.

Maybe this is what Mr. Parker was saying about opposites and reverses in the first place?

Ian.

When you get your infinite insights books look at vol 3, pg 16..

From a training horse the reverse motion of the thrusting inward would a rear elbow strike.

jb:asian:

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by jbkenpo



When you get your infinite insights books look at vol 3, pg 16..

From a training horse the reverse motion of the thrusting inward would a rear elbow strike.

jb:asian:

Wouldn't that be a punch you're describing?

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by KENPO_CORY



Wouldn't that be a punch you're describing?

It is very similar, but with a punch the hand rotates CCW 180 degrees and ends at the center of the body. With the thrusting inward block the hand rotates CW when I do it (the book says CCW and it can be done that way...a discussion GD7 and I have had in the past) and moves in a straight thrusting motion from the back corner of the box to the front cross corner of the box (if you know what I mean) and ends up where a hammering inward block would.

jb:asian:

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by jbkenpo



It is very similar, but with a punch the hand rotates CCW 180 degrees and ends at the center of the body. With the thrusting inward block the hand rotates CW when I do it (the book says CCW and it can be done that way...a discussion GD7 and I have had in the past) and moves in a straight thrusting motion from the back corner of the box to the front cross corner of the box (if you know what I mean) and ends up where a hammering inward block would.

jb:asian:

OK, makes since. Thanks

[Rob_Broad]

I started this thread to see the diversity of the answers. I have seen some very insightful answers. The definition SGM Parker gave was very simplistic. Reverse is following the same path in the opposite direction. Opposite is the other hand.

I intentionally left the question a little vague but not so vague that nobody had any idea of what was wanted. I wanted to see everyone's interpretations. I also wanted to see how complicated we would make this these 2 simplistic aspects.

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

I also wanted to see how complicated we would make this these 2 simplistic aspects.

I think we kept our feet on the ground...

jb:asian:

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
I also wanted to see how complicated we would make this these 2 simplistic aspects.

And? What did ya think? :D

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
I started this thread to see how complicated we would make this these 2 simplistic aspects.


Well, you got fooled......

If it is complicated, Mr. Parker says it constipated...... but rather it should be sophisticated which is nothing more than simplicity compounded.

:asian:

[kenpo3631]

Reverse of an inwards block is an outwards extended block (think Shielding Hammer), the opposite of a back hammerfist strike is a back hammerfirst strike with the other hand.

No and yes.

The reverse of an inward block is an outward parry, not and extended outward block. The extended outward block hits just outside the far corner of the "Conceptual Box".

As for the back hammerfist I say "Yes"...

For the thrusting inward block, I don't think it would matter, the reverse would be an outward parry too.

Dennis any insight on this?
:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by kenpo3631
The reverse of an inward block is an outward parry, not and extended outward block. The extended outward block hits just outside the far corner of the "Conceptual Box".


Explain your angle please...... I don't see the reverse of an inward block an outward parry.



The "opposite" of a back hammerfist strike is a back hammerfirst strike with the other hand.

As for the back hammerfist I (Lance) say "Yes"...


I agree here on the opposites.



For the thrusting inward block, I don't think it would matter, the reverse would be an outward parry too.


Again, please, explain your point of view..... I again don't look at the reverse as an outward parry.

:asian:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by kenpo3631



No and yes.

The reverse of an inward block is an outward parry, not and extended outward block. The extended outward block hits just outside the far corner of the "Conceptual Box".

For the thrusting inward block, I don't think it would matter, the reverse would be an outward parry too.

Dennis any insight on this?
:asian:

Doesn't the parry start from the center of the "Conceptual Box" not the outside far corner? and doesn't the concept of "reverse" motion imply that you follow along the same line that it came in on?

jb:asian:

[Sandor]

Originally posted by KENPO_CORY



Yeah, I don't think I'm familiar with a thrusting inward block. I understood an inward block to start from the outside and diagonally move inward. So would a thrusting inward block be like a punch crossing your body or something? Forgive my ignorance.

Didn't see an answer to your question about the term thrusting so here goes;

The descriptor 'thrusting' in the context of this conversation is referring to the block's 'Method Of Execution' to wit; Hammering, Thrusting, Whipping, Slicing are all Methods of Execution.

The vector of travel for a 'Thrusting' Inward block as discussed here is low to high(the reference point was from a training horse with the hand starting in chamber).

To provide a little more clarification; had the inward block's point of origin been from above (like the transition from the upward block in star block to the inward block), then the method of execution for the block would have been a 'Hammering' and the block would have been called a 'Hammering Inward Block'.

Another quick way to look for a comparison of the two is the two inward blocks that start off short form one. The right hand executes a hammering inward block (point of origin for the block being the salutation) and the left hand executes a thrusting inward block(the point of origin being the chambered hand).

Hope that helps...

:asian:

Peace,
Sandor

[kenpo3631]

quote: Originally posted by kenpo3631 The reverse of an inward block is an outward parry, not and extended outward block. The extended outward block hits just outside the far corner of the "Conceptual Box".


Explain your angle please...... I don't see the reverse of an inward block an outward parry.

For argument sake we'll say the inward block is a right hammering. It starts cocked at the right ear, traveling in a path of action to the left far corner of the "Conceptual Box".

If you open the hand and retract it back to your right ear, following the same path of action, it would be an outward parry....no?



quote: For the thrusting inward block, I don't think it would matter, the reverse would be an outward parry too.

After futher review by the judges the play has been over ruled, fourth down.:D :asian:

[Les]

Originally posted by satans.barber



Reverse of an inwards block is an outwards extended block (think Shielding Hammer),

Ian.

Wouldn't the reverse motion of an inward block, or any other block for that matter, depend on your point of origin?

The position of an ext. outward seems a strange place to be working from.

Les

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

quote: Originally posted by kenpo3631 The reverse of an inward block is an outward parry, not and extended outward block. The extended outward block hits just outside the far corner of the "Conceptual Box".



For argument sake we'll say the inward block is a right hammering. It starts cocked at the right ear, traveling in a path of action to the left far corner of the "Conceptual Box".

If you open the hand and retract it back to your right ear, following the same path of action, it would be an outward parry....no?



quote: For the thrusting inward block, I don't think it would matter, the reverse would be an outward parry too.

After futher review by the judges the play has been over ruled, fourth down.:D :asian:

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Well, you got fooled......

If it is complicated, Mr. Parker says it constipated...... but rather it should be sophisticated which is nothing more than simplicity compounded.

:asian:

I think I am gonna have to agree and disagree at the same time. The concept is very simple. It is the application that becomes complicated.

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Sandor



Didn't see an answer to your question about the term thrusting so here goes;

The descriptor 'thrusting' in the context of this conversation is referring to the block's 'Method Of Execution' to wit; Hammering, Thrusting, Whipping, Slicing are all Methods of Execution.

The vector of travel for a 'Thrusting' Inward block as discussed here is low to high(the reference point was from a training horse with the hand starting in chamber).

To provide a little more clarification; had the inward block's point of origin been from above (like the transition from the upward block in star block to the inward block), then the method of execution for the block would have been a 'Hammering' and the block would have been called a 'Hammering Inward Block'.

Another quick way to look for a comparison of the two is the two inward blocks that start off short form one. The right hand executes a hammering inward block (point of origin for the block being the salutation) and the left hand executes a thrusting inward block(the point of origin being the chambered hand).

Hope that helps...

:asian:

Peace,
Sandor

Thanks :asian:

[Goldendragon7]

:asian: