Respect came WHEN???

[tshadowchaser]

Most people are not respected but rather accepted when they first start practiceing. How long was it befor you feel your classmates started respecting your knowledge and abilities?
Was it one instance that made them say WOW or was it just your knowledge and willingness to share what you knew?

Shadow:asian:

[Bob Hubbard]

I've read some stories about the early days of training (way back in the deep dark 70's) ;) when seeing a female in a school was rare. I believe Doreen Cogliandro faced some steep obsticles when she started out...especially when she hit the competition circuit. Today, shes highly respected in the martial arts world.

But it took her a lot of blood sweat and tears getting there. I'd be interested in hearing some of our female members stories on how their experiences went. Did you face prejudeces, etc.

:asian:

[Nightingale]

I don't think I really got a whole lot of respect until I started teaching...I had a lot of friends, but I don't think it was a respect thing, I was just there to learn, like they were...I didn't really get "respect" for my abilities until I started teaching. I guess they figured that if my instructor trusted me enough to allow me to teach, they needed to respect whatever knowledge I had to give them...

Even now, I have parents that take issue with having a female instructor. Unfortunately, it seems as though I have to be tougher than the guys to get the same amount of respect. Frankly, if someone sees a guy wearing a brown belt, the Y cromosome and the brown belt are enough to gain respect. If someone sees a girl wearing a brown belt, they need to see her in action first. It's unfortunate, but true more often than not, especially with parents (mostly men, sometimes women) who don't train. Other students tend to take my rank as is, but people who don't train don't tend to respect it as much as they would respect a man wearing the same color belt.

[Seig]

Fortunately, most of my female students do not have that issue. I grew up here and moved back a few years ago. I left with the reputation as both a hell-raiser and a hard @ss. The people who knew me then, know that I do not giveout rank lightly and when they see one of my females wearing a belt, they have no doubt that it has been earned. I have seen your situation occur in various places and I am one of the men that does not believe in that crap.

[KenpoTess]

I know I've looked at some of the students with a new light in the last few months as they have come up through the ranks .. They are intelligent and since I've read some of their posts on this board my pride in knowing I've helped teach them makes me smile and I've always respected each and every one of them ~!

I've always been the upper ranking student in our school, and as the oldest person there I guess I have always had the respect of my peers.. nothing to do with what belt level I was or am. I share what I know equally and if I don't know ...I go to my Instructor who shares with me. I think respect comes with time as people get to know each other in a shool climate.
In our school we are all laid back and have known each other and hang out with each other ...other than the studio so that makes for a friendship. Nobody ever really goes out in public with their rank tied on.. unless its on the schools front steps.. and passers by can peer at us.. which they do.. but nobody gives us any issue. :)


Tess

[Nightingale]

hehe... when my instructor was out of the school, the sparring instructor (black belt) and I were hanging out after class. He was in street clothes, and I was in uniform. I had a man walk in with his son, around age 8 or so. My fighting instructor was busy chatting with another student or two, and he didn't really deal with the business aspect of things anyway, so I explained the program to the gentleman and his son, and he seemed to be wavering...and I was sensing that it was a gender issue... he was very polite, but he kept saying "well, ma'am, I don't know..." I didn't address the issue directly, but I called over to my fighting instructor "Sir, can I borrow you for a second?" and turned to the gentleman and said "let me show you some of what kenpo can do..." Now, my fighting instructor, being the smart guy he is, picked up real quick what I wanted, and threw an attack at me...which happened to be, of course, the opening attack he and I use when I compete in self defense. We went into my whole routine, street speed, each move ending in a takedown and loud kiah (spelling?). The guy gave me his deposit check five minutes later.

however, I get the sense that if he'd been talking to a guy, the demo wouldn't have been necessary.

[FUZZYJ692000]

Oh Tess, I think I'm gonna cry...:waah:. That was so sweet. I must say most of us do respect eachother very well and we try and treat others how we would want to be treated in return. Not to say that there aren't those exceptions when some get higher in rank and think that they know all and try and look down on others, then there is a problem. But in general most of us have learn to not only respect eachother in class as teacher/student and student/student relationships, but outside of class in friendships. :asian:

[Eraser]

Greetings all,

I personally don't know how much respect i recieve from fellow students.. but I know i respect them very much.. even the ones that have just started and are still training in their street clothes.
As soon as you walk in the door and come on to the mat for the first time.. you get a handshake and intro from me...... and a great deal of respect.. no matter of age or gender.. WHY.. just for starting MA.. Lots of people don't take MA because of the committment you must or should make, they don't want to spend their precious time on an art to denfend themselves when they believe a bat or knife, or gun will do.
We all learn from each other.. even from the white belts!

[tshadowchaser]

Eraser,

What a beautiful attitude and way of looking at the beginner.

Nightingale8472

I like that approch. Direct and to the point of showing that a woman can do whats needed.

Tess


I think respect comes with time as people get to know each other in a shool climate.

This statement is so verry true

Shadow:asian:

[lifewise]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

Most people are not respected but rather accepted when they first start practiceing. How long was it befor you feel your classmates started respecting your knowledge and abilities?
Was it one instance that made them say WOW or was it just your knowledge and willingness to share what you knew?

Shadow:asian:

Respect???? lol.

Well, if I ever did get any respect, it was after my first sparring with Kenpo Girl - and walking away in one piece.

ok - staggered. :)

:D

[KenpoGirl]

Originally posted by lifewise



Respect???? lol.

Well, if I ever did get any respect, it was after my first sparring with Kenpo Girl - and walking away in one piece.

ok - staggered. :)

:D

Hey don't let lifewise fool you. She has a mean right hook that will take your head off if you don't watch it.

:asian:

Respect comes when you make yourself part of the group. Helping out when you know something and someone else is having problems. Keeping things friendly, and fun.

As least that what I believe.

dot

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

Most people are not respected but rather accepted when they first start practiceing. How long was it befor you feel your classmates started respecting your knowledge and abilities?
Was it one instance that made them say WOW or was it just your knowledge and willingness to share what you knew?

Shadow:asian:

Hmmm,

I personally got respect when the instructor was calling of techniques and striking to test your blocking techniques. He called one technique, and struck somewhere else. This is when I received the first little amount of respect in the class.

As for women, it does seem in general that women have to prove their worth more often then men. I had the privilege of having a female black belt show up occasionally as a guest instructor. She always received my respect, simply put, she was an instructor.

Respect is gained over time, as stated previously :) , from the class and the students.

Rich

[KenpoGirl]

LOL I guess I'm lucky, I've never really had to face an obvious level of disrespect. Or at least not until recently.

It seems to me if you put in a full effort, and don't whimp out on your training people will respect you for your efforts.

LOL not to mention if you can do a kick to a kicking pad that will send to person back a step or too. You gain respect that much faster. :D

[tshadowchaser]

I can remember back into the early 70's about the only way a femal would get respect from everyone on the tournament circut was when she fought and won the majority of her matches. She had to be able to go at it bare knuckle with whomever was in front of her just like trhe guys did back then. I know this is not the way it is today but it was at one time.
Shadow:asian:

[Thundering Hammer]

I have to say that I never felt tbat my classmates don't respect me. Yes, there is a difference when certain men attend or teach class and people respect them but I wouldn't go as far as to say that I'm not respected at all.

For years, I put myself and my abilities down but it was my classmates that pulled me up and gave me confidence.

I would have to say that I started to respect myself when I was a 3rd degree brown belt. That test was the first time that my techniques were explosive and I Kiaied (sp?) Then I languished in the browns for a long time and lost my confidence.

REcently I earned my black belt and I am proud of it. It was a challenging test, but with my training I made it through. My classmates saw another side of me that they haven't seen in a very long time. Also, I attended a camp shortly after my test and performed my techniques for certification. Again, people saw something in me that they haven't seen: confidence! Many people (both men and women) came up to me afterwards to congratulate me on such a good job. One woman said that she will take her black belt test next year and wasn't going to perform at the camp but after seeing my test she will. I'm not used to all the attention and compliments. But I respected myself and gained confidence. Isn't that one of the things that martial arts is all about.

[Carol]

This was a very interesting thread.

TShadowChaser starts by saying -


Most people are not respected but rather accepted when they first start practiceing. How long was it befor you feel your classmates started respecting your knowledge and abilities? Was it one instance that made them say WOW or was it just your knowledge and willingness to share what you knew?

Bob replied adding -


I've read some stories about the early days of training (way back in the deep dark 70's) ;) when seeing a female in a school was rare. I believe Doreen Cogliandro faced some steep obsticles when she started out...especially when she hit the competition circuit. Today, shes highly respected in the martial arts world.

But it took her a lot of blood sweat and tears getting there. I'd be interested in hearing some of our female members stories on how their experiences went. Did you face prejudeces, etc.

And the responses are varied. One lady says she didn't feel like she earned respect until she began teaching. Another says she never felt like her classmates didn't respect her.

What have your experiences been?

I'll share mine.

I spent a good amount of time this summer poking around schools in the area. Some I visited because I was curious about joining. Others I was curious about what they were like. Others I visited because I was invited.

I never felt like I was disrespected. I experienced varying degrees of welcoming, and varying amounts of friendship, but didn't really experience anything from an interpersonal side that turned me off.

However, when it came time to join a school...a big factor (aside from being VERY close to my home) was that from the beginning they made me feel like family. Recently, I went to a school barbeque at their home (the school is owned by a husband and wife team.) My training partner (male) commented to me once that, out of all his training, he had never been invited to a school owner's home before. I thought about that for a second, and concurred. I hadn't been invited to the home of a school owner or an instructor before. I don't know if that parlays in to respect for my skills, but...I'm a beginner that doesn't have much skills.

It does feel like respect for my participation in the school. Since that is all I can offer while I'm learning....that means...something.

What do you all think? :asian:

[SFC JeffJ]

A while back, my wife had a student who was Korean. His parents moved here from Korea for work. The parents hemmed and hawed for a while and finally decided she wasn't a woman, but a TKD instructor.

When we went to his graduation party, they pulled her (along with me luckily) and put us at the front of the line for the buffet they had laid out. I never saw them treat another woman like that. It was pretty funny.

Jeff

[Kacey]

The class I started in had female students when I started, including one who was the second most senior student in the class. There was also another high color belt who was a woman in the class. That class varied from 20% to 40% women, which was unusual for the late 80's. Respect was based on performance, irrespective of gender, which is, I think, how it should be; I was never treated any differently from the men in the class, except that the women's breaking requirements are slightly different (same techniques, fewer boards) in recognition of women's physical differences and how they affect power.

I do think that part of why I get so many teen and pre-teen female students is because I am female, and the girls are more comfortable starting with me than they might be with a male instructor, but none of them ever had any problem with the male assistant instructor. My senior student, and my first student to earn a black belt, is female, and she's around whenever she's not in college; that seems to help too.

[Tez3]

In our club there are only two instructors, myself and our chief instructor (he's male, I'm not!) I teach a class of 4-6 years olds and we share the older childrens and adults classes. It's very true that many of the parents prefer him to teach to myself..... martial arts is a manly thing it seems in many of their minds! Oh I'm fine teaching kata or the traditional stuff but hey a woman teaching fighting, oh I don't think so! I ran a kata class a couple of years ago and actually had a couple of parents walk out with their children as Mick wasn't teaching - I was, this despite the fact I have trophies for competition and he hates kata!
In the adults,the men will leave me out if they can. We do MMA and often I end up sitting out despite being supposedly the instructor that night. Mick has to make them include me sometimes and then they get a bit patronising and 'try not to hurt' me, the opposite does not apply! They are nice guys but they just don't get the thing about training with everyone, sometimes I get so frustrated I want to scream. I 've even thought of giving up. I've been told just to get in there, which I'm not afraid to do but it seems pointless to get hurt and prove them right.

[King]

As for me respect depends on the level of commitment and dedication towards the art. Like when I watch them practice and see their ability. I don't see gender, age or physical limits as an issue. What earns me their respect is seeing their dedication to learning from example.

Since I practice Muay Thai I'm generally impressed with women who goes all out sparring with the men. When fists and kicks are flying your way, pain tends to make you forget superficial things and enjoy the match. This is a convesation I had while working with one of our Muay Thai ladies (whom I've worked with many times before).

Me: Hey I recognize your t-shirt, you went to Pope John Paul Highschool?
Her: Oh, I still do.
When realization set in my jaw was at the floor. There I was, a 5'10" (@ 180lbs) 27 year old guy hitting the pads with 100% power against a 5'5" (125lbs) 16 year old highschool girl. And she did not even bat an eye.
Me: Yo-you're still in highschool?
Her: *smiles*
Me: Wow.

I was impressed with her before, but after finding out how old she was made me respect her. If I ever have daughters, I wish they would be just like her.

[Phoenix44]

When I was a brown belt, and when I DEMANDED the respect.

[matt.m]

I am not a female, however I will share my experience. It is kind of one of those deals because my pop is a master in my organization, I didn't know who was being nice to me because of dad or if they actually respected me for who I was.

I have had a consistent tae kwon do partner that was a red belt as a kid, who as an adult has been going through the ranks beginning at white again. He and I are green belt, 5th gup. He will test in a few weeks for blue, 4th gup. Anyway, I have always been complimentary of his efforts....a few weeks ago I coached his sparring match at a tournament. He won 1st. Anyway, he and I were talking before sparring drills and he told me "Your kicking is awesome and your skills with hapkido technique really just absolutely impresses me."

I immediately thanked him for the compliment, he had never said anything like that to me out of the blue in 7 months like that. In all reality his comment floored me.

It really suprised me that I was further talked to by a 4th dan instructor while we worked escrima drills after class. He told me "I say this because you don't have the big head, but the student look up to you because of your positive attitude and undying want for proper technique."

Talk about positive feedback.

Now in tae kwon do and hapkido I will say that from what I have seen over 25 yrs. is that women from the instructors view is that they are held to the same standards and treated no different. There are a few women from dads hapkido class that are just amazing people on and off the mat, no one that I have ever witnessed has shown them less than proper respect.

[curious]

Time to revive this old thread!!!!!!

Respect is an issue where I attend and it not because I'm a female. When new male students arrive for their first class they practically roll their eyes at me and at the other females. My instructor gives me and his female assistant (senior brown belt) this look that I am very familiar with, I get my gloves and wait....One of these days I am going to video tape them and post it on this site. Let's just say when they leave they are no longer rolling their eyes at any one.

The on going problem with respect is from the other female students. For a year and a half I attended semi-privates and morning sessions. When my instructor felt that I was ready he included me with the evening adult classes, mostly female. When I first started these classes everybody treated me like a newbie. As a green belt this can get annoying. Since I already know the curriculum my instructor is teaching naturally I want to help especially with the spanish speaking students (3 of them)since I'm bilingual. Explain to me why they straight up ignore me!?!?!? Two of the ladies look not at but through me and go mmhhmm before walking away from me literally. Most of the time they don't even want to train with me. My instructor has seen it happen and puts them to work with me and only me on purpose; they still don't get it. This has been going on since last September, I spoke with my instructor a couple of weeks ago about this telling him that it's aggravating me and that I'm tired of this ****. All he said was not to take it personal- HOW!?!? Since then I don't really talk to the ladies anymore, which makes me feel even worse-it's like I'm isolated in a room full of people, a loner. I've been thinking of going just to my morning sessions I get more work done that way anyways and the people there do respect me.

[Carol]

Time to revive this old thread!!!!!!

Respect is an issue where I attend and it not because I'm a female. When new male students arrive for their first class they practically roll their eyes at me and at the other females. My instructor gives me and his female assistant (senior brown belt) this look that I am very familiar with, I get my gloves and wait....One of these days I am going to video tape them and post it on this site. Let's just say when they leave they are no longer rolling their eyes at any one.

The on going problem with respect is from the other female students. For a year and a half I attended semi-privates and morning sessions. When my instructor felt that I was ready he included me with the evening adult classes, mostly female. When I first started these classes everybody treated me like a newbie. As a green belt this can get annoying. Since I already know the curriculum my instructor is teaching naturally I want to help especially with the spanish speaking students (3 of them)since I'm bilingual. Explain to me why they straight up ignore me!?!?!? Two of the ladies look not at but through me and go mmhhmm before walking away from me literally. Most of the time they don't even want to train with me. My instructor has seen it happen and puts them to work with me and only me on purpose; they still don't get it. This has been going on since last September, I spoke with my instructor a couple of weeks ago about this telling him that it's aggravating me and that I'm tired of this s**t. All he said was not to take it personal- HOW!?!? Since then I don't really talk to the ladies anymore, which makes me feel even worse-it's like I'm isolated in a room full of people, a loner. I've been thinking of going just to my morning sessions I get more work done that way anyways and the people there do respect me.

You're in control of your own training. If there is stuff going on that you don't like, don't go there and don't pay them money.

[Kacey]

Respect is earned - not taken, and generally not taken right away. For people unused to MA ranking - such as new students - green belt doesn't seem like the accomplishment that it really is, and don't realize how hard you worked to get there, or what it says about your skills. While I understand your frustration (I'm the highest-ranked female in my organization, and I get a lot of second looks from people who didn't think about my gender before they met me), you need to figure out why these women don't respect you - is it cultural, personal, restricted to the MA setting, etc. - because most likely, it is because you are in a position that they are unused to, and therefore uncomfortable with.

Lots of people who know me for a while find out I'm in TKD and give me funny looks - more people than I can remember have told me I "don't look like a black belt" (although I've never been sure just what a black belt looks like... except that every time I ask the concept "male" comes up - and often the concept "Asian" as well) - except my TKD students, who are constantly surprised that needlework is one of my hobbies, as that doesn't fit with their perception of me as their instructor.

Until you know why they don't respect you, you won't be able to change their reaction... and even once you do know, it may not change anything - but at least you'll know why, which may or may not reduce your concerns and frustration about the situation.

[Laurentkd]

[quote=curious;731019]Time to revive this old thread!!!!!!

Hello Curious,
I am curious myself, why did you attend semi-private classes for so long before joining evening classes? Is that standard policy? Because if it is NOT, perhaps you learned a lot more a lot quicker than the normal evening students, and perhaps the other womens' reaction are out of jealousy? Is your technique or understanding of the art better than theirs? Do they look at you as "special" with opportunities and training benefits they don't get? Unfortunatly just this can make people not like you.

I am the top student at my school; I am 24 and have been in TKD for 18 years. The next student under me is 40 and has now been doing TKD for maybe 7 years. I should obviously be a much better student than him right? But he doesn't see it this way. He is constantly trying to show me up (although he always looks silly in the process) and he has convinced himself that I am full of myself and a "girl-power only" type girl. I am a strong confident martial artist, but in no way does his depiction of me fit me. In fact I teach many classes a week, am well liked by everyone else and do nothing but try to help this guy (although now a-days I just try to leave him alone as that seems to be what he wants). It was really hard for me for a long time because I just couldn't figure out why he didn't like me, and I guess I am just not used to people not liking me! (I am sure there are people who don't like me, but I really try to be a kind and helpful person and martial arts is my passion so I really enjoy helping others, which usually makes people appreciate you).
ANYWAYS... I digress. If people are jealous of you there is no understanding it and there is most likely nothing you can do about it. If this is the case try to be friendly to them, but just try not force yourselves on them either. It's not the best situation, but you have to make the best of it.

Hopefully this is helpful to someone, even if it doesn't apply to you.

[wade]

:) , heh, heh, heh, heh, heh,...... You want respect? Heh, heh, heh. It doesn't matter if you are male or female, you want respect? Hit them, bottom line, hit them. Untill some one knows you can kick their butt, or at the very least let them know they are going to pay to beat you you will get no respect. So, .....................hit them, and then when they are looking at you in schock hit them again. God, I do love this game.

[tshadowchaser]

I am happy to see this thread alive again. Thanks

I feel respect is given to those with knowledge and ability. However I realise that some people, no matter what you do, will never respect you because of some prejudice in their own mind. If you work hard at your given art and are willing to give back to that art by passing on the knowledge then yo may gain respect. If you are not the best fighter but try to learn and always try your hardest then you may gain respect. People respect others for many reasons
I am still interested in hearing more from the ladies on this subject

sheldon

[Laurentkd]

:) , heh, heh, heh, heh, heh,...... You want respect? Heh, heh, heh. It doesn't matter if you are male or female, you want respect? Hit them, bottom line, hit them. Untill some one knows you can kick their butt, or at the very least let them know they are going to pay to beat you you will get no respect. So, .....................hit them, and then when they are looking at you in schock hit them again. God, I do love this game.

haha. Good point! There was a 1st degree who moved in to our school (he didn't stick around) but he could take all of our 2nd degrees because he was over 6'4" tall, had good technique and had little control, which intimidated them as they thought they would get hurt (can't blame them). The first time I sparred him I gave him several good shots to the head right off the bat. Have to admit all those other adult men black belts suddenly looked at me a little different!! Good point sir good point.

[RachelK]

I agree with tshadowchaser, some people won't respect you no matter what you do. No point worrying about it. It would be nice if my classmates all respected me as I am a dedicated student, have been training with our instructor longer than anyone, and have acquired some degree of skill. About half the class doesn't respect me, the other half does, and I'm just fine with that. I don't care that they don't want to partner with me because I am a woman. Not training with them is no big loss anyway, IMHO.

It doesn't matter whether or not I have demonstrated I can kick someone's ass. If that person is disinclined to respect me, kicking their ass will only make them dislike me more. I am content to get the respect of my fellow students whom I respect and to hell with everyone else, I'm not some evangelist determined to get men to respect female fighters, I'm just an ordinary person interested in self-defense.

I don't know if anyone else is in this position but if your classmates do not respect you, I wouldn't sweat it. As long as you train well and learn what you set out to learn, the people that really matter will give you respect and why bother with everyone else.

-Rachel

[exile]

I am the top student at my school; I am 24 and have been in TKD for 18 years. The next student under me is 40 and has now been doing TKD for maybe 7 years. I should obviously be a much better student than him right? But he doesn't see it this way. He is constantly trying to show me up (although he always looks silly in the process) and he has convinced himself that I am full of myself and a "girl-power only" type girl. I am a strong confident martial artist, but in no way does his depiction of me fit me. In fact I teach many classes a week, am well liked by everyone else and do nothing but try to help this guy (although now a-days I just try to leave him alone as that seems to be what he wants). It was really hard for me for a long time because I just couldn't figure out why he didn't like me, and I guess I am just not used to people not liking me! (I am sure there are people who don't like me, but I really try to be a kind and helpful person and martial arts is my passion so I really enjoy helping others, which usually makes people appreciate you).

ANYWAYS... I digress.

No, Lauren, you don't digress. Your experience is full of lessons bearing on this particular issue. First, you're a very experienced, technically adept MAist, given your years of training. Second, you are actively interested in your student's improvement, indicating a certain degree of selflessness (a lot of instructors in any domain of knowledge do the minimum, because they'd rather use their time and energy building up their own knowledge/skill base). Put'em together and you have someone who anyone with his/her head screwed on right (or even close to right) would give an arm and a leg to have as a teacher. And now we have this guy whose reaction is 180º in the opposite direction. I concluded from these facts that the guy has problems with women who know more than he does. When I taught skiing, the guy in the ski school who was my own instructor and `guru' was married to a woman who outranked him in the instructor's association—she was one of the refereeing panel that decided if you were good enough to qualify for the professional organization's highest rank, white badge—but every year, she'd have classes on the hill where some of the young hot-dog show off guys would be dissing her behind her back (or so they thought) when she taught them in her first `master class'. She took them to the top of the severest headwall on the mountain, blasted down halfway, and then told them to follow her at the same rate. After they picked themselves and their skis out of the snow, she never had any problems with them again. This guy sounds the same, but maybe more of a jerk—her hotshot students figured it out pretty quickly that She Had The Power, but this guys sounds just hopeless.

It has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with him and his probably miserable, insecure, angry view of things. But that's a problem that a lot of women instructors in a testosterone-laden environment like a dojo are going to face... and it's often the older guys who are the worst, I suspect.

[Laurentkd]

It has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with him and his probably miserable, insecure, angry view of things. But that's a problem that a lot of women instructors in a testosterone-laden environment like a dojo are going to face... and it's often the older guys who are the worst, I suspect.

Thanks for your support Exile (too bad I just gave you rep for another post. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif) And I think you are completey right- I think this guy is just not a very all-around happy dude, and I get the feelng that his biggest issue with me is simply that I am a female and a higher rank. It just floors me that I can't break this preconceived notion of his! I don't like it that he doesnt like me!! But, as I said before he is the only one like that. My instructor supports me, and I enjoy giving my time to help other students and have never had problems receiving respect from them (of course you have to give it to earn it). I used to think that if I could help him improve he would appreciate it, and we would be cool- not so. So now I just give the guy his own space and try not to worry about it. If I am forced to correct him in class I will, as privately as possible (if he is teaching something to a student wrong, or sparring without control, for example) but otherwise I just let our instructor know and let him take care of correcting it (like technique improvement, etc). I figure if I can try to make this guy's life easier, it can only end up being a good thing for me (plus it makes me look good in my instructor's eyes which is always nice!!) It's probably a good dojang lesson about dealing with people that I have been fortunate to learn young, that will one day help me outside the dojang (one of the cool thing about martial arts).

To sum up: These types are few and far between. Do your best to treat them how you would want to be treated, and don't let it bring you down (probably the hardest part).

[exile]

To sum up: These types are few and far between. Do your best to treat them how you would want to be treated, and don't let it bring you down (probably the hardest part).

Good advice, Lauren. But you shouldn't think of it as him not liking you. I suspect it's much closer to the truth to say that he can't see you at all. What he dislikes is his failure to be who he thinks he ought to be, i.e., him the instructor, you the student. It has nothing to do personally with you at all, but rather with the inherent situation. No matter which woman his instructor was, he'd act the same, I would guess.

Your appoach to him sounds entirely professional and above reproach. Too bad he can't be happy inside his own skin, but that's something only he can fix, eh? :)

[Laurentkd]

Good advice, Lauren. But you shouldn't think of it as him not liking you. I suspect it's much closer to the truth to say that he can't see you at all. What he dislikes is his failure to be who he thinks he ought to be, i.e., him the instructor, you the student. It has nothing to do personally with you at all, but rather with the inherent situation. No matter which woman his instructor was, he'd act the same, I would guess.

Your appoach to him sounds entirely professional and above reproach. Too bad he can't be happy inside his own skin, but that's something only he can fix, eh? :)

quite right sir, quite right.

[Carol]

I am the top student at my school; I am 24 and have been in TKD for 18 years. The next student under me is 40 and has now been doing TKD for maybe 7 years. I should obviously be a much better student than him right?



But he doesn't see it this way.

Not necessarily



He is constantly trying to show me up (although he always looks silly in the process) and he has convinced himself that I am full of myself and a "girl-power only" type girl. I am a strong confident martial artist, but in no way does his depiction of me fit me.

I think I'm a lot like this dude.



In fact I teach many classes a week, am well liked by everyone else and do nothing but try to help this guy (although now a-days I just try to leave him alone as that seems to be what he wants). It was really hard for me for a long time because I just couldn't figure out why he didn't like me, and I guess I am just not used to people not liking me!


I can understand why you aren't used to people not liking you. In your brief time on the forum you have been outgoing, friendly, helpful...and respected. You sound like a great student and I bet you are well on your way to being a great instructor.

I don't know what is going through your student's head. So instead, I'll tell you what going through my head. I'm approaching 40 and I also have a very strong personality. I also, for the most part, really do not like being under an instructor in their 20s...as snobbish as that sounds.

Lauren, first of all I'm not in class to covet your job. I'm there to escape mine. I do it by fighting mentally and physically. My mental game is miles better than my physical game...and always will be. When I'm on the mat, my mind works just as hard as my body. I'm trying to push myself in to a zone that's the perfect balance of putting me under a load and working my mind...but without embarassing me, humiliating me, or discouraging me.

An experienced MA instructor versus an inexperienced MA instructor is like an experienced nurse versus an inexperienced nurse. It's not that you don't have the core training, the knowledge, or the competency....you do. It's not that you can't do the job....you can. But...an experienced nurse can get a patient to talk about intimate details of their body comfortably and without embarassment. An inexperienced nurse often can't....yet.

Lauren, the situation you are in is not a good one. You will earn the respect of this man and people like him :wavey: when you develop the stature and the depth of knowledge to stand up to the mental challenges and to correct students without embarassing them...and swami says you aren't there yet. You WILL be there because of your great attitude and your persistence and your dedication. :)

IMO this was not a good call by your instructor. For one, I don't think it is fair for the most experienced student (the dude) to be taught by the least experienced instructor (you) on a regular basis. For another, if I were the dude....I'd be pounding even harder on you too. Not because of what YOU did, because of what the instructor did. If I pay my (say) $100/month to train under this very well seasoned MA instructor and then he does a 180 and then says oh yeah well several times a week you'll be training under my new assistant, I'd be hitting the freaking roof. I'm paying $100/month to train under the master, not the apprentice. If I have no other choice in the mnatter, then this apprentice damn well better show me that they are ALSO worth $100/month because I'm not convinced they are. And so the stress test for the new instructor just got a tougher.

That's a bad situation for an experienced instructor. It's a terrible situation for a new instructor. You may need more backup than you are getting.

I would strongly urge you to sit down with your instructor and have a serious talk. Maybe it is not the right time for you to be teaching senior students at the frequency you are. Or, maybe the instructor needs to realign the dude's expeictations and sell him on sometimes training under you for the same price as always training under the senior. Or maybe the instructor needs to have a bit more of a backbone and lay down the law with him or to shape up or ship out. I don't know what the answer is. But...I hope you can find one, and I hope it works out. Sounds like you've gotten off to a helluva good start! :asian:

[LawDog]

At my instructors school, after both the male & female instructors saw that the students were serious about learning, high respect came equally for both genders. Most of these woman were tough as nails, kicked my butt a few times they did.

[RachelK]

I would have no problem taking instruction from someone who had trained in the style for 18 years, no matter how young they are and regardless of gender. I could see if this guy that doesn't care for Lauren had 15 years of experience, but he's been training for 7 years and she for 18; regardless of her age, she's more qualified to teach than he is. Age brings wisdom, certainly, but that's no replacement for many years of hard training. Older people often make better teachers, most people mellow out as they become older and develop better interpersonal skills. But that is no substitute for martial arts skill.

I think it's important to look past your instructor's age and judge them in terms of their experience. If they are qualified to teach, why should their youth be a strike against them? The teacher is not always older than the student. Frequently I go for math or computer programming tutoring at my university and some of the tutors are 18 and 19 years old. I'm 35, but I'm not going to reject their help simply because I'm older; these kids are better at math and computer programming than I am and if I'm not comfortable with that because I expect that my age should automatically give me superior knowledge, that's my problem, not theirs.

Not wanting an instructor who is younger than you is not very different than not wanting an instructor who is a woman. Instructors cannot change their age or their gender. Those things are beyond their control. If the person is well-qualified to teach and has many more years of training than you do, why not accept that you can learn from them? I have learned a great deal from instructors younger than I am; I see only their experience, not that I'm older. They simply started training before I did and being older than them is not going to change that.

(BTW I am not saying it's OK to pay your tuition expecting instruction from the master only to be told that their senior student will be training you instead. That is known as "the switcheroo" and I'd be unhappy with that arrangement as well. I don't mind occassional instruction by one of my fellow students when my teacher's out of town. But if it was a regular thing to be taught be a student instead of a certified instructor, I'd expect a discount for my tuition.)

Best,
Rachel

[curious]

I have been out with a cold and cough and I just used up a lot of my energy on the thread Parent with a Question so I am going to make this a quick one, sorry. Since I last posted there has been quite a few replies and a lot of you have made some very strong points, thank you. A couple of days ago I had an "altercation" with one of the females and it brought my attention to what has been posted on this thread. First to answer your question LaurenTKD-I attended semi-privates in the morning because of my back ground of abuse. My instructor felt that if he put me with the regulars I would regress instead of making progress. He does not treat me "special" I won't allow it. I do everything the other females do except train with men.

I am beginning to think that the root of my problem with the class lies with the junior assistant my instructor has teaching on occasion. The rest of the class I believe is feeding off of her. Anybody and everybody knows that she has a crush on our instructor, he could care less. Our instructor and I are only friends but whenever I or any other female comes around she starts acting very stupid. On top of that she has a very snotty attitude (she has a nickname unbeknowest to her "Devil's Spawn") our instructor has punished her by taking her senior brown belt away from her until she decides to behave. In the evening class she has a "posse" and it's with this posse that I have been having problems with. I didn't notice before because for about a couple of months now she has been behaving. A couple of days ago during class she showed up (wasn't her turn to teach) and started making very obnoxious remarks especially towards me. She outright verbally attacked me and started making fun of me in front of the whole class. I stopped doing what I was doing to get in her face and tell her she needs to talk to our instructor. When I told our instructor what had happened he was furious. I don't know how that ended yet and can't wait to find out what happened. I get the feeling we won't be seeing her around for a while. I told my instructor that we were going to have to teach her a lesson the hard way-Wades way. :rofl: He won't let me. I told my instructor that the class sees this crap going on and react by isolating me. They rather ignore and disrespect me than face the reprocussion of the junior assistant, they are intimidated by her, they fear her. I haven't started anything with her out of respect for those around us but seriously I think it's time to take matters into my own hands.

[Laurentkd]

Not necessarily



I think I'm a lot like this dude.



I can understand why you aren't used to people not liking you. In your brief time on the forum you have been outgoing, friendly, helpful...and respected. You sound like a great student and I bet you are well on your way to being a great instructor.

I don't know what is going through your student's head. So instead, I'll tell you what going through my head. I'm approaching 40 and I also have a very strong personality. I also, for the most part, really do not like being under an instructor in their 20s...as snobbish as that sounds.

Lauren, first of all I'm not in class to covet your job. I'm there to escape mine. I do it by fighting mentally and physically. My mental game is miles better than my physical game...and always will be. When I'm on the mat, my mind works just as hard as my body. I'm trying to push myself in to a zone that's the perfect balance of putting me under a load and working my mind...but without embarassing me, humiliating me, or discouraging me.

An experienced MA instructor versus an inexperienced MA instructor is like an experienced nurse versus an inexperienced nurse. It's not that you don't have the core training, the knowledge, or the competency....you do. It's not that you can't do the job....you can. But...an experienced nurse can get a patient to talk about intimate details of their body comfortably and without embarassment. An inexperienced nurse often can't....yet.

Lauren, the situation you are in is not a good one. You will earn the respect of this man and people like him :wavey: when you develop the stature and the depth of knowledge to stand up to the mental challenges and to correct students without embarassing them...and swami says you aren't there yet. You WILL be there because of your great attitude and your persistence and your dedication. :)

IMO this was not a good call by your instructor. For one, I don't think it is fair for the most experienced student (the dude) to be taught by the least experienced instructor (you) on a regular basis. For another, if I were the dude....I'd be pounding even harder on you too. Not because of what YOU did, because of what the instructor did. If I pay my (say) $100/month to train under this very well seasoned MA instructor and then he does a 180 and then says oh yeah well several times a week you'll be training under my new assistant, I'd be hitting the freaking roof. I'm paying $100/month to train under the master, not the apprentice. If I have no other choice in the mnatter, then this apprentice damn well better show me that they are ALSO worth $100/month because I'm not convinced they are. And so the stress test for the new instructor just got a tougher.

That's a bad situation for an experienced instructor. It's a terrible situation for a new instructor. You may need more backup than you are getting.

I would strongly urge you to sit down with your instructor and have a serious talk. Maybe it is not the right time for you to be teaching senior students at the frequency you are. Or, maybe the instructor needs to realign the dude's expeictations and sell him on sometimes training under you for the same price as always training under the senior. Or maybe the instructor needs to have a bit more of a backbone and lay down the law with him or to shape up or ship out. I don't know what the answer is. But...I hope you can find one, and I hope it works out. Sounds like you've gotten off to a helluva good start! :asian:


Thanks for your post Carol, and your kind words! I think you have some valid points, especially about wanting to be taught by the master rather than someone else.

However, I have serious doubts that you and this guy are the same!
There is actually quite a difference in rank between us (As I said, about 11 years experience). My original instructor abandoned us and took off for the Bahamas (with lots of people's kukkiwan money!). I was fortunate that the brother of a guy I trained with opened a school at about the same time. I was able to join his school as a second dan (having already sent in my kukkiwan application a second time under someone else who was present at my test). So even though this guy is the next senior below me, there is quite a gap between he and I. (Especially because there used to even be people between us.) Once I earned my master's trust I began teaching my classes on my own (at age 16). When I went to college I created and built (on my own) a traditional taekwondo program with over 50 active students (college students and professors) by my fourth and final year (it is still going fairly strong with nearly 30 students two years later). It is my and my master instructor's goal to have me in my own location a year from now and I already have dozens of students who want to follow me there. So, while of course not perfect, I am not new to teaching, and by far not the most junior instructor (there are many more even junior to this guy). Also, this guy used to be a fairly cool dude. He took my advice and appreciated my help as a color belt. We got along just fine until he became the "number 2" guy, that's when the issues began. It got worse when I returned from college and was at the dojang every night, instead of just every weekend (I think he liked being the top dog). I am also not the only person to have an issue with him. He has also caused problems with other students (color belts and black belts) by how he has treated them and how he thinks he should be treated regardless. He has been heard saying things like "I shouldn't have to say hello to you, I am the senior, you should just come and bow to me." (this is usually with other young female black belts and color belt students, and this is the exact opposite of the example my master instructor and I have set). Lastly, I am not his primary instructor. He receives 2 half hour private lessons a week from our master teacher (which are available to all black belts at my dojang) and he can come to the 2 hour black belt class on friday nights (only taught by my master). My master also teaches the vast majority of color belt classes (unless he assigns a class to a black belt for a short time for their teaching experience). I fill in teaching color belts when asked, such as when my master is sick or otherwise unavailable. It is in these color belt classes this guy and I have had issues (usually because he had no control when sparring color belts, or when he was assisting students, but telling them something wrong that he has been corrected on again and again). Otherwise he just tries to one up me (and makes himself look worse), rolls his eyes when I say something to the class, and just shows all around no respect to me, no matter how much I bow and say hello to him first (seriously!) My master instrutor supports me completely and will always take my side when he sees this guy acting silly, and he has been warned to shape up (as I have been encouraged to be patient and be a "good senior" and try to help him when I can and maybe he'll come around- the dude is really not a happy guy, and I do feel sorry for him). Unfortunatly based on a lot of his actions I don't see him being around much longer. He is just showing the signs that a lot of people show before they quit.

It is impossible of course to really explain our 7 year history in an online forum, nor is it something I want to try to do here. But hopefully this at least gives you more insight (if you can follow all my looooong sentances!)

Carol, you really brought up some valid points that anyone should really look at when faced with this type of situation. However, because he is the only person at my dojang that has issues with me, and since he has caused issues with and lost the respect of many students, I don't feel this particular instance is one I should dwell on. I will always work to improve my techniques, teaching ability, and myself as a person, however I feel I should focus on those people who want my help and want to be civil rather than force myself on someone who doesn't. That and that alone was the point of my original post in this thread.

[wade]

Ya know, well, maybe ya don't. I have basically 4 schools and most of my senior instructors are female. Even after I tell them the one true way to get respect is to kick some butt, I am actually lying. An instructors job is to get the student to where they want to be. It is not their job to be the baddest mofo in the valley, sorry, Marine slang. Anyway, if there is someone there that is disrespecting you them move them on, out the door that is. Your job, as an instructor is to teach class and make some one a Martial Artists, not to babyset some one who is too immature to realize he might have a good instructor just because she is a female.

Curious....................I am blushing, but thank you, if I understood you right, you just made my day. And yes, sometimes that lesson has been taught just that way with very nice results. Other times, well, wait, sorry, there haven't been any other times.

[Laurentkd]

Ya know, well, maybe ya don't. I have basically 4 schools and most of my senior instructors are female. Even after I tell them the one true way to get respect is to kick some butt, I am actually lying. An instructors job is to get the student to where they want to be. It is not their job to be the baddest mofo in the valley, sorry, Marine slang. Anyway, if there is someone there that is disrespecting you them move them on, out the door that is. Your job, as an instructor is to teach class and make some one a Martial Artists, not to babyset some one who is too immature to realize he might have a good instructor just because she is a female.

Curious....................I am blushing, but thank you, if I understood you right, you just made my day. And yes, sometimes that lesson has been taught just that way with very nice results. Other times, well, wait, sorry, there haven't been any other times.

I agree completely sir

[kicksindabank]

for me they still don't and I am brown belt. go figure!

[Sukerkin]

It's been an interesting read through this thread and I'm struck by the range of experiences people have had.

From a personal perspective, I've always taken the approach that respect is a given when you first meet a fellow student/instructor. Actions and attitudes can cause that respect to be lost but everyone gets an 'A' to start with (a la "Dangerous Minds" :D).

Of course somethings can enhance that initial respect or erode it quite quickly. As an example, I remember quite clearly my first lesson in iai where one of my fellow students, a tiny framed, very pretty, woman, suffered a toe-in-hakama incident and slammed face first into the floor. I was impressed beyond measure that she bounced right back up, hadn't let go of her sword and completed the kata without comment.

That said, some people are easier to respect than others. It's obvious I suppose, but I don't think it's been touched on yet in this thread, that if someone takes an 'attitude' demanding you respect them (rather than earning it) then there are going to be those (me included) who will have an adverse reaction to that.

Still, it's a complex issue when alls said and done, especially when you're a middle-aged man, brought up with certain chivalrous/gentlemanly ideals of proper behaviour, having to adapt to 'modern' attitudes of physical equality betwen the sexes. Sadly, I'd be one of those chaps that would infuriate Tez because there is no way I could overcome the 'programming' of my youth and not hold back when sparring with a woman - it doesn't mean for a second that I don't respect their abilities, it's just that it breaches so many spinal-reflex, ingrained, codes of conduct :D!

[Just4Kicks]

I am in the process of gaining it, in my martial art school there are quite a few female black belts but my class is predominantly male.

I started in an all girls class with a third dan female instructor and trained really hard for a year. Then this year I had to attend a mixed class under the master which has 6-15 students. Only a yellow belt, a little girl, my old instructor, who only comes once a week, and myself are female.

I think I am still viewed as pretty 'green', and I find my lack of upper body strength a source of embarrassment. But I take on the black belts in sparring, train hard and go to every class I can.

People at my school were shocked and amused when they first found out; they considered it to be a 'radical feminist' thing. I don't 'look like a martial artist'.

But at school we had a kickboxing instructor come in and I proved to be able to kick them back three or so steps. Much to the snickering guy's disbelief.

New guy students can be pretty condescending, but I just tune them out and do my thing. I have my journey and they have theirs, let them think as they will.

Also in sparring I can tell that the male blackbelts are holding back, thinking of moves but not doing them. Its insulting. You don't have to knock me out, just spar me dammit!

I'm determined to get perfect pushups one day, I do mine on my toes but they aren't satisfactory yet. I have the option of doing them on my knees but... I don't want to take the easy way out. Of course after a few my arms are spaggetti... :p

I just want the chance to improve. I don't need a babysitter.

BUT there are some really great guys there who will go at it and not hold back... much. :p Usually against other guys there is the whole chest bashing vine swinging thing, but with us girls it is more of a true sparrring

[tellner]

I'm not female myself, but I'm married to one :)

My wife remarks from time to time how lucky she's been. Her first teacher, Rick Faye of the Minnesota Kali Group was great. And he wouldn't stand for any kind of bigoted crap from any of his students. Then she was with Mike Inay (ztl). He was very traditionally Filipino-American in a lot of ways but treated her and the other women in the class very well. John Daniels was fine even though he always ended up asking her to do the "woman things" related to the school like picking out presents or writing condolence letters. Steve Plinck has been fantastic and never treated her or any of the other (few) female students any differently. In fact, once he was using her to demonstrate a lock-flow into a one-armed elbow/shoulder lock that ends up with you grabbing the pec with the locking hand. He'd just about put the technique all the way on when he suddenly let go like he'd touched a hot stove :)

The only one who was ever a dick about her being a woman was Matt Thornton. Matt, bless his little heart, wasn't embarassed at all when he talked in class about how ridiculous the idea of "chick fighters" was or talking down to the female students.

[Shaderon]

I'm approaching 40 and I also have a very strong personality. I also, for the most part, really do not like being under an instructor in their 20s...as snobbish as that sounds.



I'm approaching 40 myself and have a strong personality, I don't have a problem with my instructor being younger than me, it's his abilities I value, not his age, or his gender. I don't have anything against him for being male, the same way I know he doesn't see me as different for being female. If he was 20 years younger than me I'd still not have a problem with him.... because he's a darn good teacher and respects me for who I am. During sparring or technique work, he always tells (or warns sometimes) any new guy I spar with "go on hit her, she'll block you and hit you back" or "don't hold back with her she's as tough as you", and I'm not the only female that gets this treatment.

As for respect, the origins of the thread, I got respect for the person I was as soon as I walked into the training atmosphere, no one ever put me down or looked down on me, it just doesn't happen with our classes. I think respect for my abilites came in my higher up class when my instructor pulled me out of the beginners (I was a white belt) and put me with the red belts to spar (2nd kups). A few people stared at first but when I held my own against them, I got some handshakes, grins and thank you's at the end. One red belt held back with me until I smacked him in the face and told him to guard it... he laughed and hit me back and we've enjoyed sparring each other ever since.

[Laurentkd]

Still, it's a complex issue when alls said and done, especially when you're a middle-aged man, brought up with certain chivalrous/gentlemanly ideals of proper behaviour, having to adapt to 'modern' attitudes of physical equality betwen the sexes. Sadly, I'd be one of those chaps that would infuriate Tez because there is no way I could overcome the 'programming' of my youth and not hold back when sparring with a woman - it doesn't mean for a second that I don't respect their abilities, it's just that it breaches so many spinal-reflex, ingrained, codes of conduct :D!


I think this is a good point. I will spar men in class when we are training. But I never spar them when it is time to "go all out," nor would I compete in the men's/boy's divisions when I was competing. It is just not fair to the guy. No matter what the guy looks bad... either he beat up a girl, or got beat up by a girl!! And often guys will either (like you) go softer because that is how they were raised, or go crazy with no control to make sure they don't get beat by a girl. Either one isn't good for either the guy or girl who is sparring. Guys can see my superior technique (if it is superior that is) even when we aren't going full out. And hopefully respect for my knowledge and skill can be maintained/earned through that. I wish men and women could spar exactly as men and men or women and women spar, but we just aren't there as a society. Whether a society like that would be a good thing as a whole is a whole other topic.

[Zida'sukara]

I did not have any problem with being not respected. From the first day on, the people were nice and friendly and the class atmosphere was not like, Ow i am better or what so ever. I think everybody had respect for everybody and when somebody said something than "almost" all the others listened to what was said, didnt matter what belt or grade the person was wearing. :)

The "almost" I mentioned on purpose as there were a few new people who had a big ego and they ácted different than the rest but after a while, they left or they turned into nice and friendly persons and by doing that they did fit in the group afterall.

[RachelK]

No matter what the guy looks bad... either he beat up a girl, or got beat up by a girl!! And often guys will either (like you) go softer because that is how they were raised, or go crazy with no control to make sure they don't get beat by a girl. Either one isn't good for either the guy or girl who is sparring.

That's the hardest part about training with men. Most are either too soft, out of misguided chivalry, or too hard, out of fear of being "beaten by a girl." This puts a lot of pressure on the female martial artist. It is easy to think that you are only prevailing because your male sparring partner is "letting you win." Likewise, the ones who are too brutal to make sure that they aren't beaten by you also put the female practitioner in an uncomfortable position. If you respond in kind, you risk injuring your partner, but if you let them beat you up just to appease their ego, then you yourself might become injured. I treat the too-brutal classmates as legitimate threats to my personal safety. When they are too brutal, I do not think, this is just training. I think, here's a crazy guy coming at me, and I'm going to defend myself just as if he were a random stranger attacking me on the street.
I know it's hard for guys to find the balance but it's very important if you want to train well with women. You don't necessarily have to play by a different set of rules. If you are afraid of striking us in the breasts, remember that we are also afraid to strike you in the balls. Both sexes have to be careful about these sensitive areas. With proper attitude, gender shouldn't be an issue in training. Unfortunately, it usually is, in my experience. I treasure the handful of guys with whom I can train well, as equals.
Best,
Rachel

[IcemanSK]

In every school/gym I've trained in, I've had talented female instructors that I've learned a great deal from. From the 15 year BB that taught me it was "ok to hit girls" (or at least try) when I was a 15 year old white belt; to Chris Kreuz (a World Champion pro boxer) who I outweighed by 30 lbs but could never lay a glove on; I've learned that there's no such thing as the "weaker sex."