Kenpo Manuals

[brianhunter]

Out of all the guys out there selling Kenpo manuals (by belt, forms etc.) Who out there would you say is the best? I have seen the Kenpo 2000 manuals and I was very impressed with the info inside. What else is out there what do you guys like???

[shawn monday]

Brian, i just got Mr Tatums journal...i highly recommend it

shawn monday:cool:

[Rob_Broad]

I actually like the original IKKA manuals. They set the standard for everyone else.

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

I actually like the original IKKA manuals. They set the standard for everyone else.

Rob,

Were you always IKKA or did you start in Tracy's Kenpo? If so, when did you switch over (i.e. rank & year) to WKKA? Just curious since I saw you mentioned a Tracy's technique as one of your favorites on the other thread.

jb:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by jbkenpo



Rob,

Were you always IKKA or did you start in Tracy's Kenpo? If so, when did you switch over (i.e. rank & year) to WKKA? Just curious since I saw you mentioned a Tracy's technique as one of your favorites on the other thread.

jb:asian:

I originally started in the tracey system in 1981, in 1989 I start in AK, I continued to train in the Tracy system until 1993 at which time I left as a 4th degree Black Belt. The Tracy's technique I posted wasn't one of my favorites, someone else named it their favorite and another person asked what the techniques was. I just posted a quick version of the technique. As for the WKKA I was only with them for a year and half, it was too political for me.

Basically I just go where the knowledge is, if an instructor is hosting a seminar and it is something I want to learn I go. I am not worried about attaining new rank at this time.

Currently I am in an "Back to basics" mode where I am re-ananlyzing every form, every set, and all 154 techniques and their extensions. A lot of play with the equation formula and really working on the fundamentals again is where i am at these days.

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad



I originally started in the tracey system in 1981, in 1989 I start in AK, I continued to train in the Tracy system until 1993 at which time I left as a 4th degree Black Belt. The Tracy's technique I posted wasn't one of my favorites, someone else named it their favorite and another person asked what the techniques was. I just posted a quick version of the technique. As for the WKKA I was only with them for a year and half, it was too political for me.

Basically I just go where the knowledge is, if an instructor is hosting a seminar and it is something I want to learn I go. I am not worried about attaining new rank at this time.

Currently I am in an "Back to basics" mode where I am re-ananlyzing every form, every set, and all 154 techniques and their extensions. A lot of play with the equation formula and really working on the fundamentals again is where i am at these days.

Good honest answers...So who (what instructor) actually worked you through the 154 AK techniques and all the extentions? Or are you still exploring them? I couldn't figure that out from your website....

Thanks, jb:asian:

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by jbkenpo



Good honest answers...So who (what instructor) actually worked you through the 154 AK techniques and all the extentions? Or are you still exploring them? I couldn't figure that out from your website....

Thanks, jb:asian:

When I started AK I started with Joe Foster and went through the base 154 techniques before he went and started creatinghis own material. Between 1992 and 1995 I bounced around from seminar to seminar to seminar, where I met Mike and Mark Masterson who took me through the extensions. Mike and Mark Masterson are Kara ho instrustors who originally started in AK. In 2000 I met Steve Stewart and that was my exposure to the WKKA, I started working at white belt with him, under him I was ranked as a 3rd degree brown belt until we parted ways in in the summer of 2001.

I have put together an video collection since the mid 80's and I see the similarities between the Tracy's material and AK, I find there to be more personal expression in AK. Hope this answers all your questions, if not fire away, I am here to answer.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Hope this answers all your questions, if not fire away, I am here to answer.

Why the switch?

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Kirk



Why the switch?

I prefer the quality, not the quantity. I prefer the scientific approach of AK, not the because I said so approach of the Tracy's. There were also political reason for leaving the Tracy system completely.

[Klondike93]

The only ones I have are distributed by my instructor, and I think he wrote them himself. They are written very well with just a few mis-spelled words being the only problem I've seen.

I've never seen any of the other manuals, are there ways to purchase them without being in the respective organization?

I would really like to get the IKKA ones as they're the ones everyone talks about so often.


:asian:

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad


Hope this answers all your questions, if not fire away, I am here to answer.

Once again I respect your honest reply and your journey...

jb:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Klondike93
Are there ways to purchase the manuals?


Sure,
Contact Ed Parker Jr. @ www.edparkerjr.com
then go to Kenpo then manuals

He has what you want.

:asian:

[Klondike93]

I sent him an e-mail to see about availability and total cost.


:asian:

[Kenpo Wolf]

I would love to get my hands on a copy of a few of those Ed Parker manuals, but they are rather spendy. Who all here has them and are they worth it? In other words, do they go in depth into the techniques rather then just a description?

[Sandor]

from the shameless endorsements dept...

I have all of the manuals that Ed sells. They are excellent in the quality of the material, organization etc. as one would expect from the source of the material; his fathers notes. You won't go wrong by purchasing them.

On a side note... in my travels I have seen a fair share of pirated versions of Ed's manuals and it really ticks me off to see them out there. The majority of them are people letting thier friends photocopy their legitimate original copy. Please, if you see this happenning, discourage the practice. It is illegal and will only hurt all of us in the end. Sorry, just had to say it. I belive they are a fine product and the man deserves the income for his efforts to help us out.


Peace,
Sandor

[Sandor]

Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf

I would love to get my hands on a copy of a few of those Ed Parker manuals, but they are rather spendy. Who all here has them and are they worth it? In other words, do they go in depth into the techniques rather then just a description?

The tech manuals and forms manuals offer a pretty high resultion look at the material. They are not like Skip Hancocks books that I've seen in the sense that tons of explorations are paraded out afterwards. They do go a long way into communicating the techs and forms in the proper syntactic Kenpo terms for the movements.

As for the price... I don't think they are unreasonable. I've bought technical books that topped at $185. Considering that most technical manuals of any topic worth purchasing are usually in the 50-70 USD range they are quite a bargain.

Peace,
Sandor

[Kenpo Wolf]

Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf

I would love to get my hands on a copy of a few of those Ed Parker manuals, but they are rather spendy. Who all here has them and are they worth it? In other words, do they go in depth into the techniques rather then just a description?

I did'nt mean a bootleg copy if it came across that way. Sorry for the misunderstanding. What I meant is I would like to buy a original copy, what a oxymoron(spl), from the EPJ's site. I will definitely buy the journals as soon as I finish paying off my truck in a few months. Thanks a lot for the excellent advice.

[BillPiper]

I have most of the IKKA manuals. I also have Kenpo2000 manuals thru 1st Brown. I even have a manual or two from Eric Lamkin at www.arnis.com. He produces and excellent, informative, and clear set of manuals.

[Sandor]

Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf



I did'nt mean a bootleg copy if it came across that way. Sorry for the misunderstanding. What I meant is I would like to buy a original copy, what a oxymoron(spl), from the EPJ's site. I will definitely buy the journals as soon as I finish paying off my truck in a few months. Thanks a lot for the excellent advice.

I didn't interpret your question as a request for a bootleg copy. I did however feel it necessary to point out to the group as a whole that the bootleg industry in our art is way out of hand.

I get requests all the time from folks (some of them even post in this forum) asking if I would make them a copy of this tape or that manual, in a barter, for a reduced fee, or, more often then not, for free.

It bothers me to see it happen because the consumer base for anyone who is marketing a product as specific as a tech manual or video for Kenpo is actually pretty small to begin with, never mind the amount of folks who actually would buy those items in that particular niche market. It would really surprise me if the actual number of kenpo video sales topped 2,000 units in a year for all of them across the entire Kenpo genre, yet it is very rare that I go somewhere and not see bootlegs of videos and manuals in peoples collections.

I once took Ed Jr. to a seminar that he was instructing and there, right before our eyes, was an entire school filled with bootleg copies of the tech manuals. Only difference was the cover had the name of a certain selfproclaimed '*cough* SGM *cough*' on it and the copyright info conveniently missing from the pages. Other than that they were exactly(word for word and page number for page number and format) the same. Of course, that person denied actually pirating the work and insisted they were his original works. So, the sad reality of it is that the manuals are even being pirated by school owners who sell them and keep the monies to themselves. I don't think we'll be back there anytime soon...

My point, after all this ranting... is... We need to be very open and honest about the issue and actively discourage the practice. It is STEALING whether or not folks want to own up to the facts. They become thieves by participating in the bootlegging process.

When folks purchase these items they support the folks who do a lot of hard work to put them in our hands and maybe continue to give them the incentive to continue thier efforts. If we don't and turn a blind eye then, eventually the lesson in futility is driven home and there will not be any new products put to this particular market.

Peace,
Sandor

[satans.barber]

The point at which a demand curve intersects a supply curve is called the point of equilibrium, the point at which buyers are happy to buy and sellers are happy to sell.

It would seem to me that the prices of most martial arts media are WAY above the point of equilibrium, sic. Larry Tatum tapes at nearly £25 each, it's ridiculous.

If they charge above equilibrium, then people are inclined not to buy things. Say someone could supply a Larry Tatum tape for £10 that was bootleg, maybe I'd be happy to pay that, say it was £15, maybe I'd stretch to that, if it got above that then no, it's too expensive.

So look, we've found a point of equilibrium (for me as a consumer), which is 60% of the market price.

The point is that suppliers are stimulating the black market by inflating prices, they bring it on themselves. VHS re-production can be found at very competetive prices, so I can't believe they're going to be oporating at a loss by reducing the prices to something more reasonable.

As for books, I don't know as much about that, but I can only imagine it's a similar situation, although getting books printed is more complex and costly than getting tapes reproduced.

The point is that you're not depriving a company of the money if you were never going to buy the good in the first place. That doesn't make buying bootleg stuff right, it's just a fact.

Ian.

[Sandor]

Originally posted by satans.barber

The point at which a demand curve intersects a supply curve is called the point of equilibrium, the point at which buyers are happy to buy and sellers are happy to sell.

As I stated earlier it is not my opinion the prices are out of hand. Try buying a video on a specialty topic and see what the fair market price of the video is. You will find that the price for say a video in the medical field on a particular subject is 4 fold the price you pay for a martial arts video.


It would seem to me that the prices of most martial arts media are WAY above the point of equilibrium, sic. Larry Tatum tapes at nearly £25 each, it's ridiculous.


See note above.


If they charge above equilibrium, then people are inclined not to buy things. Say someone could supply a Larry Tatum tape for £10 that was bootleg, maybe I'd be happy to pay that, say it was £15, maybe I'd stretch to that, if it got above that then no, it's too expensive.

So look, we've found a point of equilibrium (for me as a consumer), which is 60% of the market price.

The point is that suppliers are stimulating the black market by inflating prices, they bring it on themselves. VHS re-production can be found at very competetive prices, so I can't believe they're going to be oporating at a loss by reducing the prices to something more reasonable.


So, getting a tape dupe in a run of say a thousand costs 1£ per unit and maybe the cover(though that price is really a reflection of making a run of 5,000 or 10,000 units...a more fair number for such a small quantity would be 2£). It would be great if the cost of the item and the retail of the item are the only things to consider. They are not, however. I work in this field and it becomes very expensive to do a small project like a Kenpo video. A fair number would be $5,000 USD (not including the previous run of units at 1,000). So, the 1,000 tapes and project cost are now easily 6,000USD without any marketing to buy adspace in the appropriate publications.



As for books, I don't know as much about that, but I can only imagine it's a similar situation, although getting books printed is more complex and costly than getting tapes reproduced.


Well, again there are costs and overhead in the production of said books. Printing, binding, the labor to produce said content etc. It all adds up to the point I made in the begining.


The point is that you're not depriving a company of the money if you were never going to buy the good in the first place. That doesn't make buying bootleg stuff right, it's just a fact.

Ian. [/B]

Sadly, these are not 'companies' to deprive but individuals who put a treendous amount of their time and monies into the production of these items. If a project is done at say 10,000 USD and the cost of each item to produce was a mere $10 per, It will take many years of selling the item to get out of the red. The reason you can buy a copy of *insert name of favorite movie here* at the local shop is that they (as in the copanies producing the product) can do so in huge numbers, say 500,000 per run and sell those 500,000. Good luck selling 1,000 copies of a kenpo video in the same 4-5 day window that blockbuster moves half a million copies of Harry Potter.

I think you miss my point. The items(books and videos) available to the Kenpo world are specialty educational products and as such will indeed cost more to produce and see a profit on. I buy lots of computer books every year. Not one of them cost less than $49.95 USD. I would bet there are a lot more people in the computing field who buy those books(just in the US) than people studying Kenpo (worldwide).

So, the information has a certain value far beyond the tangible product purchased. How much would it cost you to hop across the pond and get a class with Mr. Tatum?

Peace,
Sandor

[GouRonin]

The reason that theft is way out of control in Kenpo is the cost of most things people sell. The 2 are related.

Second, the manuals are useless without an instructor who knows what they are doing.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by GouRonin
The reason that theft is way out of control in Kenpo is,
One, the cost of most things people sell is too high
and
Second, the manuals are useless without an instructor who knows what they are doing. ....... The 2 are related.


Now, Gou, just get everyone to realize that.

:asian:

[jfarnsworth]

I guess I might be behind times. I don't have a manual. I can't really afford to buy manuals off of Mr. Parker Jr.'s web site. :rolleyes: I guess I'll have to keep doing what I'm doing. Writing my own for myself. I put all key notes that I've learned over the years. Mr. Planas' seminar's that we go over each and every technique one by one. Yeah it's going to take me a few yrs. but what do I have but time huh.
Jason Farnsworth

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by Sandor



Sadly, these are not 'companies' to deprive but individuals who put a treendous amount of their time and monies into the production of these items. If a project is done at say 10,000 USD and the cost of each item to produce was a mere $10 per, It will take many years of selling the item to get out of the red. The reason you can buy a copy of *insert name of favorite movie here* at the local shop is that they (as in the copanies producing the product) can do so in huge numbers, say 500,000 per run and sell those 500,000. Good luck selling 1,000 copies of a kenpo video in the same 4-5 day window that blockbuster moves half a million copies of Harry Potter.

I think you miss my point. The items(books and videos) available to the Kenpo world are specialty educational products and as such will indeed cost more to produce and see a profit on. I buy lots of computer books every year. Not one of them cost less than $49.95 USD. I would bet there are a lot more people in the computing field who buy those books(just in the US) than people studying Kenpo (worldwide).

So, the information has a certain value far beyond the tangible product purchased. How much would it cost you to hop across the pond and get a class with Mr. Tatum?

Peace,
Sandor

Bravo, I have to agree with all you said. I am in Video Production also. I know first hand how much everything costs. Especially if you are going to do a PROFESSIONAL job. Anybody can do a video, but most people don't afford to do one professionally. If people would take the time to understand how a professional can help them, there would be better quality videos out there.
I am not just talking information(believe it or not there is some help there also), I am talking being able to hear them speak, getting the most out of the time of the video(more info in a shorter amount of time), being able to see from multiple angles, and being able to see what is happening becuase the video is not so poor. A professional (unfortunately there are people that claim this that don't know the first thing about video) can help with the flow from concept to completion. When I have the chance to make a Kenpo Video it WILL be one of the best on the market becuase I have seen what not to do.
Now I do need to see some updated videos, most that I have seen have been a few years old. Tatum's mainly. I thought he had good information, but I would have changed quite a bit of it. Well okay, almost all of it. I would not have changed his information, but I would have adjusted the delivery of the information, and how it was shot.

Ok I am done for now...........:soapbox:

Michael

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by AvPKenpo



Now I do need to see some updated videos, most that I have seen have been a few years old. Tatum's mainly. I thought he had good information, but I would have changed quite a bit of it. Well okay, almost all of it. I would not have changed his information, but I would have adjusted the delivery of the information, and how it was shot.

Ok I am done for now...........:soapbox:

Michael

You're absolutely right about Larry's tapes, but they were done about 10 years ago and shot on Beta cam (which wasn't cheap). The new knife videos and sets videos were done with Tim Bulot in Texas, and he proved to do a much better job and much cheaper than the other. Ck them out, they're worth it. I'm waiting to do an interacitve DVD- rom next time out when money permits, YEEEEHHAAA, that's the stuff there.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by satans.barber



It would seem to me that the prices of most martial arts media are WAY above the point of equilibrium, sic. Larry Tatum tapes at nearly £25 each, it's ridiculous.


The point is that suppliers are stimulating the black market by inflating prices, they bring it on themselves. VHS re-production can be found at very competetive prices, so I can't believe they're going to be oporating at a loss by reducing the prices to something more reasonable.


Ian.

You have to remember it is not the reproduction of the tape that is costly, it is the black market that is costly to us. If the Masters do not make any money(or even make it to the black), they will not make any more tapes. So it is costing us in the long run not to buy a tape from who made it. Especially if you enjoy and use the information provided.:asian:

Michael

[AvPKenpo]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo



You're absolutely right about Larry's tapes, but they were done about 10 years ago and shot on Beta cam (which wasn't cheap). The new knife videos and sets videos were done with Tim Bulot in Texas, and he proved to do a much better job and much cheaper than the other. Ck them out, they're worth it. I'm waiting to do an interacitve DVD- rom next time out when money permits, YEEEEHHAAA, that's the stuff there.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Cool I will look around for them. Thanks for the lead.

Michael

[Sandor]

Originally posted by GouRonin

The reason that theft is way out of control in Kenpo is the cost of most things people sell. The 2 are related.

Second, the manuals are useless without an instructor who knows what they are doing.

Whelp, I agree there is a connection between the two BUT... well.. I already stated my thoughts on that. Let me just add that I do understand the financial burden of the cost, I don't have a big bank to work with either and not all the videos in my collection are worth what I paid for them. Many of them like the Huk Planas forms videos and Larry Tatums latest releases are excellent. Some of them, well... caveat emptor.

The manuals are indeed useless without an instructor to be sure but I would add to that statement that videos without an instructor are just as bad, if not worse. Now folks see what to do but have no way to guage whether or not they are doing it correctly(this applies mainly to people who have no experience in a formal martial edumacation with an instructor, as usual the experienced pratitioner will benefit.. they know what to look for etc.).

Peace,
Sandor

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Now, Gou, just get everyone to realize that.

That Kenpoists like to rip people off?

Shouldn't be hard to do...
:rolleyes:

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
I guess I might be behind times. I don't have a manual. I can't really afford to buy manuals off of Mr. Parker Jr.'s web site. I guess I'll have to keep doing what I'm doing. Writing my own for myself. I put all key notes that I've learned over the years. Mr. Planas' seminar's that we go over each and every technique one by one. Yeah it's going to take me a few yrs. but what do I have but time huh.
Jason Farnsworth

You just keep doing what you are doing. I didn't get a chance to see you move a lot last weekend because Big Guy kept trying to kill me but from what I saw you were doing just fine.

For those who were not there I met jay last weekend. Hell of a nice guy and a good kenpoist.

Well, as far as kenpoists ever go he's a good one...
:rofl:

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by GouRonin



You just keep doing what you are doing. I didn't get a chance to see you move a lot last weekend because Big Guy kept trying to kill me but from what I saw you were doing just fine.

For those who were not there I met jay last weekend. Hell of a nice guy and a good kenpoist.

Well, as far as kenpoists ever go he's a good one...
:rofl:

Thank you for the comment. I appreciate it. I just try to do the best with what I have to work with. That's about all anyone can do. About this kenpo manual thing anyone can buy one I guess. I personally will appreciate the one I'm working on more since it'll be in my own words with different variable extensions that Mr. Planas has taught at those seminar's.
Jason Farnsworth

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by GouRonin

That Kenpoists like to rip people off?

Shouldn't be hard to do...
:rolleyes:

NO...... that's not what I was referring to! And you know it. That was a cheap shot!:rpo:

We were not talking about "ripping people off" but rather 1, to bring the prices down to a more affordable level for most and 2, your statement that the manuals are useless without an instructor that knows what that are doing.

:asian:

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
NO...... that's not what I was referring to! And you know it. That was a cheap shot!

Frank Trejo once asked me this question. "When is the best time to hit someone? WHEN THEY'RE NOT LOOKING!!!"

Sounded like good advice to me.


Originally posted by Goldendragon7
We were not talking about "ripping people off" but rather 1, to bring the prices down to a more affordable level for most and 2, your statement that the manuals are useless without an instructor that knows what that are doing.

I agree with bringing the prices into a more affordable range and that manuals without an instructor are near useless.
:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by GouRonin
Frank Trejo once asked me this question. "When is the best time to hit someone? WHEN THEY'RE NOT LOOKING!!!"
Sounded like good advice to me.


Cool, I'll remember that advice next time I see you.

:D
:asian:

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Cool, I'll remember that advice next time I see you.

:D
:asian:

You mean next time Gou "doesn't" see you.
:D

[GouRonin]

Like you could catch me.
:wavey: :wavey:

[Seig]

If you don't see him comming, you can't run!:D

[Goldendragon7]

I know where he lives and I know what brand treats Samson likes..... hee hee:shrug:

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Seig
If you don't see him comming, you can't run!

Uh...I'm pretty sure I'd hear him coming... if I put my ear to the ground.

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
I know where he lives and I know what brand treats Samson likes..... hee hee

D@mn! He's discovered my weakness! My kryptonite so to speak. Mental note to self: Must come up with alternate plan!

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by GouRonin



Uh...I'm pretty sure I'd hear him coming... if I put my ear to the ground.

DOH! That's as bad as the border guard crack....:rofl:

[Goldendragon7]

:rolleyes:

[GouRonin]

I'll just make sure it's a windy day and if he gets close I'll let a big gust of wind carry me away. Or I'll turn sideways and disappear. Ha ha ha!

[Goldendragon7]

the kite string and tie.....
:p

[truetokenpo]

Where does one get a copy of the original IKKA manuals?



I actually like the original IKKA manuals. They set the standard for everyone else.

[AmericanKenpoChris]

They have the complete set of the manuals on ebay.

[Kenpodoc]

Another possibility is Rich Hale's computer version. He's selling them on ebay and I really like mine.

Jeff

[IWishToLearn]

Rich's are very VERY well done.

[thatdude]

I originally started in the tracey system in 1981, in 1989 I start in AK, I continued to train in the Tracy system until 1993 at which time I left as a 4th degree Black Belt. The Tracy's technique I posted wasn't one of my favorites, someone else named it their favorite and another person asked what the techniques was. I just posted a quick version of the technique. As for the WKKA I was only with them for a year and half, it was too political for me.

Basically I just go where the knowledge is, if an instructor is hosting a seminar and it is something I want to learn I go. I am not worried about attaining new rank at this time.

Currently I am in an "Back to basics" mode where I am re-ananlyzing every form, every set, and all 154 techniques and their extensions. A lot of play with the equation formula and really working on the fundamentals again is where i am at these days.


Do you have all the techniques on paper?

[thatdude]

Would you post them?