Your Favorite Extension

[MJS]

American Kenpo has many techniques as well as extensions. Thought it would be interesting to hear what your favorite extension is!!

Mike

[Seabrook]

Geesh, that's a tough question.

Well, at the top of my head, here are some of my favorites:

Raining Claw
Triggered Salute
Crossing Talon
Gift of Destruction
Dance of Death
Five Swords
Shielding Hammer
Evading the Storm
Snapping Twig
Leaping Crane
Repeating Mace
Twirling Wings
Parting Wings
Defying the Storm
Thrusting Wedge
Begging Hands
Fallen Cross
Retreating Pendulum
Menacing Twirl
The Back Breaker
Gathering Clouds
Bow of Compulsion
Returning Storm
Intercepting the Ram
Destructive Twins
Obscure Claws
Taming the Mace
Heavenly Ascent
Capturing the Storm
Squatting Sacrifice
Detour from Doom

Okay, now I will limit it to my favorite (at least for today, LOL) extension per belt. Ask me tomorrow, and you may get a completely different list.

Orange extension: Dance of Death
Purple extension: Parting Wings
Blue extension: Defying the Storm
Green extension: Capturing the Storm


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[MJS]

WOW!!! That is quite a list Jamie!!

Here are a few of mine:

Clutching Feathers
Dance of Death
Parting Wings
Thundering Hammers


Mike

[Seabrook]

WOW!!! That is quite a list Jamie!!

Here are a few of mine:

Clutching Feathers
Dance of Death
Parting Wings
Thundering Hammers


Mike

YA! Gotta love Dance of Death and Parting Wings eh (notice the Canadian in me) Mike?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[Doc]

My favorite is the long one that connects the wall socket to my big screen TV.

[AvPKenpo]

I think one of my favorites that I have so far is Brushing the Club. Not sure what the original Parker name was, (sorry). The attack is a overhead club from 3o'clock.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I'm of the camp that minimizes the extensions in the context of how poorly most folk do the base techniques. Personal ideology: Spend more time dialing in on the first 2-3 moves of the standard techs, so one does not NEED extensions, or the redundancies embedded within.

Anyways, probably more than 95% of the kenpoists I see doing extensions look like disjointed marionettes flailing haphazardly at the mosquitoes around their heads. Hence, my position of not having a favorite extension.

Yes, I did learn them. No, I don't practice them. Don't know many oldsters that do, and it hasn't hurt their game any.

Best Regards,

Dave

PS -- My favorite extensions would be the ones Pamela Anderson wears in in her hair in those running bikini shots from Baywatch. :-partyon:

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I'm of the camp that minimizes the extensions in the context of how poorly most folk do the base techniques. Personal ideology: Spend more time dialing in on the first 2-3 moves of the standard techs, so one does not NEED extensions, or the redundancies embedded within.

Anyways, probably more than 95% of the kenpoists I see doing extensions look like disjointed marionettes flailing haphazardly at the mosquitoes around their heads. Hence, my position of not having a favorite extension.

Yes, I did learn them. No, I don't practice them. Don't know many oldsters that do, and it hasn't hurt their game any.

Best Regards,

Dave

PS -- My favorite extensions would be the ones Pamela Anderson wears in in her hair in those running bikini shots from Baywatch. :-partyon:


So what about the other 5%? It may not have hurt their game, but how much better would they be if they did the extensions? It's obvious you think they're not a worthwhile endeavor, but did you really LEARN them?

DarK LorD

[Kim Dahl]

Could some one please inlight me, why you would use alot off time on Extension. I meen if you are not Abel to finish the fight in the first couple off moves. Then you are in alot off trouble
anyway. And no extension in the world can help you.
Yours in the arts
Kimpo

[jonah2]

Could some one please inlight me, why you would use alot off time on Extension. I meen if you are not Abel to finish the fight in the first couple off moves. Then you are in alot off trouble
anyway. And no extension in the world can help you.
Yours in the arts
Kimpo


I agree that yes, in a combat situation, survive the initial attack, counter or finish and leave is the course of action to take. No one is going to perform a technique with extension. However, I look at all techniques AND extensions as lesson in themselves. There are flows, targets etc shown in the extensions that are not found in the base techniques that are usefull to add to the tool box. As an example off the top of the bald pate dance of death extension with joint manipulation of the foot and pinning on the ground using the knees ect. Not many other base techs touch this subject.

I agree with some here that on first sight the techs with extension look too lengthy and complicated and totally un realistic but when you examine the extra lessons within the extension they are useful - well they are to me anyway

I dont like the 'whats your favourite' type questions but I thought I'd respond in this off shoot from the original question

jonah

[Jagdish]

My favorite is the long one that connects the wall socket to my big screen TV.

Doc:

What about the Wi-fi connection.:roflmao:

Yours,

Jagdish

[MJS]

We seem to be getting a bit off track here. This thread is for discussing what your favorite extension is. Please refer to this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=450390#post450390

to discuss the pros/cons of the extensions in the Parker System.

Thanks,

Mike

[Seabrook]

My favorite is the long one that connects the wall socket to my big screen TV.

So, you have a big screen TV to?

Gotta love NFL games on the big screen!

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[KenpoVzla]

Come on guys don´t take it so literally here. Learning the extensions will just give you more insight on what to do when in a real situation.

In Kenpo you´re never expected to complete a perfect technique when out in the streets (even without extension), but say you know so many techniques and so many extensions that you are able to pick out (instantly) a very good combination out of some techniques when facing an attacker. Í think that´s the place that´s desired, not to be able to complete say, Crossing Talon perfectly with extension and everything.


So yes, in summary, extensions are helpful.

[Seabrook]

Could some one please inlight me, why you would use alot off time on Extension. I meen if you are not Abel to finish the fight in the first couple off moves. Then you are in alot off trouble
anyway. And no extension in the world can help you.
Yours in the arts
Kimpo


The extensions offer what-if scenarios should the base technique go wrong. Also,while the extensions utilize many of the rearranged movements already contained in the base techniques, they uniquely show how upper body principles can also be applied to the lower half of the body. For example, you will see more leg sweeps and buckles in the extensions than were previously done in the base techniques. With compounded variables of foot maneuvers and timing, the techniques become more advanced. From this perspective, much of the extensions involves new material and gives instructors the opportunity to evaluate different ways the techniques can be performed.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[Seabrook]

We seem to be getting a bit off track here. This thread is for discussing what your favorite extension is. Please refer to this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=450390#post450390

to discuss the pros/cons of the extensions in the Parker System.

Thanks,

Mike

I agree Mike, sorry.

So what is everyone's favorite(s) extension?


Jamie Seabrook

[Doc]

Come on guys don´t take it so literally here. Learning the extensions will just give you more insight on what to do when in a real situation.

In Kenpo you´re never expected to complete a perfect technique when out in the streets (even without extension), but say you know so many techniques and so many extensions that you are able to pick out (instantly) a very good combination out of some techniques when facing an attacker. Í think that´s the place that´s desired, not to be able to complete say, Crossing Talon perfectly with extension and everything.


So yes, in summary, extensions are helpful.
I'm sure Jim Mitchell would agree with you, however in our curriculum any useful info that MIGHT be addressed in the "so-called" extensions are covered in the default techniques. Call what we do a "throwback/forward." You see, I remember when the 32 chart orange "extensions" - weren't.

[AvPKenpo]

...any useful info that MIGHT be addressed in the "so-called" extensions are covered in the default techniques...

I am only trying to discover what other kenpo camps think, so please don't flame me I am only looking for knowledge.
Continuing on with the extension point of view let us pick apart a technique that all parties should have that is similar. Most here will know "deflecting hammer" or to some "deflecting the kick." The extension(granted our extension may be slightly different than most) is not covered in the default technique.

Deflecting the Kick (Deflecting Hammer) If these are not the same tech please let me know.

I am going to give a very short explanation of this technique, (sorry my time is slightly limited)
1. Starting in a natural stance step back to six w/ left foot to rt. nuetral bow, execute a rt downward deflecting block w/ left check in checking position.
2. Execute a step drag with oppenent timing should be check w/step(pinning or preventing possible punch)inward elbow w/drag.

Now I believe this is where a lot of schools stop the original technique. Please correct me if this is not the case. Some of the schools may actually teach more to this tech.

Extension (again slightly vague sorry wish I had more time on my hands)
3. With right hand execute an outward crane hook to the neck, left hand grabbing oppenents rt wrist(this can be done several different ways such as doing a sliding hooking pin), stepping back with right foot to a left nuetral bow. The wrist that you have in your left you should drag along their back as you bend them over. Putting them in a kindof reverse hammer lock. (I should have picked an easier technique to picture):D The oppenent is bent over completely now.
4.Execute a right knee to the collar bone.
5. As you land back into your lt nuetral bow dislocate the attackers arm by pulling toward you as you execute a right downward handsword strike to the neck.
6. Coverout

Now my question is: How does the first half of the technique or original technique cover what is in the extension portion? There does not seem to me to be a lot of similarities.
The other question is who teaches only the first part and why?
Or are there other versions of this technique that other BB's teach? (without using obvious point referencing)

I am interested in hearing all replies.

Michael

[Michael Billings]

The Yellow Belt Techniques do not have extensions as written. I do like yours' however. Here is the material I have at http://kenpo-texas.com/techyel.html


4. DEFLECTING HAMMER (front- right front thrusting ball kick)

1. With your feet together step back with your left foot toward 7:00 into a right neutral bow stance (to move out of the Line of Attack), while simultaneously executing a right downward diagonal block, against the outside of your opponent's right kicking leg. Your left hand checks at your solar plexus.
2. Without hesitation and while still in your right neutral bow, shuffle forward as your left hand checks inward and toward your opponent's biceps. Your right hand cocks at the right hip in preparation for an elbow strike.
3. Just as you conclude the shuffle execute a right inward horizontal elbow strike to your opponent's face, "with" a left sliding check down and onto your opponent's right elbow.
-Michael

[AvPKenpo]

Mr. Billings,
That is almost identical to the way we teach our beginners as well. Thank you for your post.

Michael

[Seabrook]

I teach the footwork in Deflecting Hammer slightly different. I find that by stepping straight back to 6 o’clock, you improve the economy of motion for the elbow strike (one continuous motion) and that you lose this somewhat by stepping off line. I also feel that stepping off line also takes away borrowed force. Again that is my opinion, although I know a lot of Kenpoists that feel the same way that I do.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[parkerkarate]

I teach the footwork in Deflecting Hammer slightly different. I find that by stepping straight back to 6 o’clock, you improve the economy of motion for the elbow strike (one continuous motion) and that you lose this somewhat by stepping off line. I also feel that stepping off line also takes away borrowed force. Again that is my opinion, although I know a lot of Kenpoists that feel the same way that I do.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)



I totally agree with you. Although stepping off works in Thrusting Salute you would have to form another line of entry to get the elbow so it does take away from the borrowed force.

[jonah2]

I teach the footwork in Deflecting Hammer slightly different. I find that by stepping straight back to 6 o’clock, you improve the economy of motion for the elbow strike (one continuous motion) and that you lose this somewhat by stepping off line. I also feel that stepping off line also takes away borrowed force. Again that is my opinion, although I know a lot of Kenpoists that feel the same way that I do.

Although I agree with the borrowed force element I cant agree with the keeping on line. By keeping on line you must phyiscally block the kick to avoid being hit or evade far enough backward to avoid contact. Both of which I wouldn't want to do. I dont want to rely on a block of a front thrusting chrarging leg!!, or be too far away to counter.
Using a step off line you use a parrying block therefore only 'deflecting' the strike slightly letting his momentum continue on 12 - 6 line. The returning elbow still uses borrowed force but on a slight angle.
I think the trouble with some executions of deflecting hammer is that the block is taught as a block to some how turn the attacker to then attack him from behind with the elbow. We learn it as a parry block with step off line keeping him on his original line.

Jonah

[Seabrook]

By keeping on line you must phyiscally block the kick to avoid being hit or evade far enough backward to avoid contact.
Jonah

I teach Deflecting Hammer for a rear leg side kick, although it works off a front kick as well.

I find the "deflection" works great by stepping to 6 o'clock. It also allows you to continue the circle (by not stopping the motion) from your downward block to the right inward elbow better. I used to practice it by stepping offline as well, but find that 6 o'clock works much easier. But hey, I know a lot of people that can make it work nicely by stepping to 7:30 as well, so to each his own.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[jonah2]

I teach Deflecting Hammer for a rear leg side kick, although it works off a front kick as well.

Interesting not seen that but hey cant see why not in principle. However I thought (IMHO) the whole thought behind the tech was deflection of the strike while still letting him past using his momentum for the elbow. There is more momentum in a fast moving front thrust kick than a side kick. This is probably where our differing thought lie.


I find the "deflection" works great by stepping to 6 o'clock. It also allows you to continue the circle (by not stopping the motion) from your downward block to the right inward elbow better.

Cant see how stepping to 6 inproves the continuation of the circle as opposed to 7 / 8. The path of the arm through block to elbow is the same which ever direction you step. Any way far be it for me to argue with you Mr Seabrook. You have FAR more experience than me. Am I not seeing something here

Respectfully - Jonah

[Solidman82]

I don't now nor have I ever taken any style of Kenpo. But reading the names of these moves oddly enough entices me to find a good school. It's like reading the cheat-sheet from Tekken or something.

[Seabrook]

Darren,

Check out this clip of Larry Tatum executing Deflecting Hammer.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[Seabrook]

Oops. Here is the link to Larry Tatum's technique:

http://www.ltatum.com/TipOfTheWeekArchives.html

Just click Week 5.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[jonah2]

Darren, Check out this clip of Larry Tatum executing Deflecting Hammer.

Mr Seabrook - thanks for the link. I will have to wait 'till I can use a computer with sound on it - Hard to understand the instruction given by Mr Tatum on the pc i'm on right now. I will respond next week if I get the chance.

I'll go through it with my instructor too. Thats the beauty of these forums - you get to constantly evaluate your tool box when your outside the studio. God bless MT eh!

jonah

[MJS]

I teach Deflecting Hammer for a rear leg side kick, although it works off a front kick as well.

I find the "deflection" works great by stepping to 6 o'clock. It also allows you to continue the circle (by not stopping the motion) from your downward block to the right inward elbow better. I used to practice it by stepping offline as well, but find that 6 o'clock works much easier. But hey, I know a lot of people that can make it work nicely by stepping to 7:30 as well, so to each his own.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

I've always done Def. Hammer off of a right front kick,stepping to 7 o'clock, although it can as you said work from a side kick.

Question for you Jamie. When doing the tech. off of the front kick, are you stepping to 7 or do you still step to 6?

Mike

[AvPKenpo]

Here is one of the reasons we do not teach Deflecting Hammer(Deflecting the kick) as a step back to 7 or 7:30.
http://storage.msn.com/x1pkqY8sUaqsi_FiiO2fDItPop4dFwqPA-7epqLktVIex5YbGylDP8BSPKRMhdmD8yTxhgz1TJFgyHwpa-NPdwqKAtIvwagazLw7phKXGJ9x5N4QNC-UlxBB5_81jhbSE7ym4u8zEmzADkldMklBIhxxg
The shoulders and red line which represent the kick are at the same point. I only rotated the body from 6 to 7:30 which is represented by the yellow line or toe heel line. As you can see the centerline for the body gets closer to the kick as you go up the circle. For me sometimes it is easier to see. We also do not necessarily block the kick. We get out of the range of kick and when the kick is at its length we then guide the leg to where we want it. As his momentum is carrying him/her forward we then shuffle in with the elbow to maximize the strike.

Michael

[Doc]

Here is one of the reasons we do not teach Deflecting Hammer(Deflecting the kick) as a step back to 7 or 7:30.
http://storage.msn.com/x1pkqY8sUaqsi_FiiO2fDItPop4dFwqPA-7epqLktVIex5YbGylDP8BSPKRMhdmD8yTxhgz1TJFgyHwpa-NPdwqKAtIvwagazLw7phKXGJ9x5N4QNC-UlxBB5_81jhbSE7ym4u8zEmzADkldMklBIhxxg
The shoulders and red line which represent the kick are at the same point. I only rotated the body from 6 to 7:30 which is represented by the yellow line or toe heel line. As you can see the centerline for the body gets closer to the kick as you go up the circle. For me sometimes it is easier to see. We also do not necessarily block the kick. We get out of the range of kick and when the kick is at its length we then guide the leg to where we want it. As his momentum is carrying him/her forward we then shuffle in with the elbow to maximize the strike.

Michael
Although your illustration is correct, it does not account for the ultimate variable, "footwork." Your assumption that the move to 7:30 is simply a "step out" is probably in most instances when threatened by a front kick from the rear, is incorrect. Although the footwork is in fact toward 7:30, your illustration is more akin to a "cover" type move. Whereas most, under these circumstances, would "step" AND push-drag toward 7:30 adjusting the distance and "elongating" their position for a counter.

Both methods have validity, and I have no problem with those who choose to teach this type technique this way or the other, however you should be aware of the variables available to you in footwork to accomplish your goal(s), and that might influence your interpretation of "why" you choose one methodology over another.

[kenpoworks]

I base the initial defensive action of Push, Punch,Kick SDTs around move the target and then build from there, Deflecting Hammer is no different, I usally teach push drag to 7:30 and stil manage to borrow the oponents force on the elbow strike.

[Seabrook]

I've always done Def. Hammer off of a right front kick,stepping to 7 o'clock, although it can as you said work from a side kick.

Question for you Jamie. When doing the tech. off of the front kick, are you stepping to 7 or do you still step to 6?

Mike

Hi Mike,

I still like 6 o'clock, but again, I agree people can make it work by stepping to 7 o'clock.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)