What concerns you with training?

[Shinkengata]

I've been doing more reading than posting for the past few months on various forums, and i see a lot of people concerning themselves with aspects of taijutsu that i personally find useless, or rather unimportant. But i always have to remind myself that these folks are not necessarily in it for the same reasons i am, and that there is nothing wrong with that. So im curious as to what things everyone here concerns themselves with when it comes to training.

Me, personally. I don't care about ryuha, or kata, or lineages, or ranks. I don't care about historical factoids or spiritual mysticism. I don't care about the historical weapons. What concerns me is becoming proficient at what i do. When i train with a traditional weapon, my main goal is to attempt to extract whatever modern applications i can out of this training. Im constantly thinking "What modern object does this resemble in shape or nature, and how can i translate this training over to that object?"

Im constantly asking myself "Does this work for me? Can i train to where it will eventually work? Is there a better way?"

Anybody else care to share?

[Brian R. VanCise]

Shinkengata,

I to like you am interested in the practicality of Budo Taijutsu and how I would apply a given technique in today's violent modern world! I am interested in the history of the Bujinkan but it is way down the line of importance. Some people would say that the history is the essence of Budo Taijutsu and therefore extremely important. I do not knock what they are saying just that for me right now the importance is in being able
to use the skill sets that we are learning. I am someone interested in doing first and learning the history second. Now having said all of that
I certainly see the relevant points of knowing when a technique should be
matched up against say someone in armor because we still do have
people in armor such as military, police, corrections officers, nuts, etc.
So that type of tactical history is important to me!

Brian R. VanCise

[Don Roley]

I see your point. But I feel that to understand the art completely, you have to know some of the things you rail against.

Kata, done correctly, are very effective means of instruction. And to know how to use those skills, you have to know the enviroment they were used in.

You mentioned picking up a weapon and being able to figure out how to use it. But to take those lessons, don't you have to take into account things like armor that they may have faced? And some of the schools were built around armor and fighting on ships while others were built around no armor. Knowing the schools would seem to be a needed area rather than just trivia if you are going to break open the bones and such the marrow from everything you get your hands on.

But of course, all these things have their bad side. I laugh at people who quote lineage lists but have never worn Japanese armor. Some people have done neither and I can respect that. And I have trouble with "kata collectors" that practice kata off of notes and videos. But I want to jump in and learn everything that might be of use to understanding this art. I do not care much about rank, but I do care about the way Hatsumi might be thinking and that is related to the way he gives out rank.

I can see you point and find myself nodding. I hope you can see mine and do the same.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Me, personally. I don't care about ryuha, or kata, or lineages, or ranks. I don't care about historical factoids or spiritual mysticism. I don't care about the historical weapons. What concerns me is becoming proficient at what i do. When i train with a traditional weapon, my main goal is to attempt to extract whatever modern applications i can out of this training. Im constantly thinking "What modern object does this resemble in shape or nature, and how can i translate this training over to that object?"

It helps to keep in mind that a traditional martial art is NOT necessarily synonymous with effective self defense practice. The only benefit I see from choosing something like we do before concentrating exclusively on "RBSD" training, is that there are a whole lot of other goodies available for you along the way to true proficiency.

I'm willing to study not only Japanese history, but language and philosophy to the best of my abilities to whatever extent is necessary for me to get better at Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. I once said elsewhere that it's the same for most people about clapping their hands before training - it's probably fair to say that the majority of the Bujinkan's members aren't shintoists. But it's the same thing about taking your shoes off if you were to visit a mosque; doing that doesn't make you into a muslim, it's just common courtesy to display respect for other people's culture.

As a side note, there is a shihan I know of whom is extremely skilled and travels to Japan several times a year, but has also said that he deliberately avoided learning Japanese so as to "not getting caught up in terms and definitions" and to "grasp the feeling and essence of training" better. I honestly don't know what to make of that.

[Shinkengata]

As a side note, there is a shihan I know of whom is extremely skilled and travels to Japan several times a year, but has also said that he deliberately avoided learning Japanese so as to "not getting caught up in terms and definitions" and to "grasp the feeling and essence of training" better. I honestly don't know what to make of that.

I can sort of identify with that, since my instructor would sometimes have "Silent Classes" where not a word was spoken, and we were taught strictly by example and gestures.

[swiftpete]

I can sort of identify with that, since my instructor would sometimes have "Silent Classes" where not a word was spoken, and we were taught strictly by example and gestures.
I'm going to mention it to my instructor as we're usually interested in shaking things up a bit. Might be good to have a go. I would doubt they would be totally silent though, as there would still be the 'hurgh', 'oof' and occasionally 'aaaarrrgggh' sounds.:)

[Don Roley]

As a side note, there is a shihan I know of whom is extremely skilled and travels to Japan several times a year, but has also said that he deliberately avoided learning Japanese so as to "not getting caught up in terms and definitions" and to "grasp the feeling and essence of training" better. I honestly don't know what to make of that.

So, if there is no interpeter around and the Japanese shihan says "this is a bad example of what not to do" he would not know and think it is something to do.

And if the teacher says, "work on your timing" this guy will just nod his head and go on doing the same thing he was.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Personally I feel if you are training in Japan it could only help
to learn some of the language to the best of your ability!
Knowing customs and the culture behind them could only
help as well! This is a functional skill set if you are training
in Japan that could only help you! Is it completely necessary?
Probably not because I did not go to a class that did not have
an interpretor at it! (Soke, Nagato, Senno, Oguri, Shirashi, Noguchi,
etc.) If I was to stay in Japan for a long time would I really try and
learn the language better, you bet. As it is I am trying to learn
enough so that I can pick out some of the details that I otherwise
might miss!

Brian R. VanCise

[Don Roley]

Good post Brian.

Of course, I can see the other side of the coin as well. All of us probably can think of someone who should just shut up and try to movements instead of sitting and talking to their training partner about it.

Boy, I could tell stories about that.

[Shinkengata]

I have no plans to go to Japan..

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

In that case, I pity you.

[Cryozombie]

Here we go again.

I love the mentality that you should drop everything and go to japan.

Got a House, a Job, a Mortgage and a family? Too bad! Go to Japan!

Lessee... Here's me personally...

Do I want to pay my mortgage and have "less than Japanlike" taijutsu skills... or do I want to lose my house and live in a box with my mad "Japan like" taijutu skills.

Id certainly NEED them more with the latter being the case...

[mrhnau]

Here we go again.

I love the mentality that you should drop everything and go to japan.

Got a House, a Job, a Mortgage and a family? Too bad! Go to Japan!

Lessee... Here's me personally...

Do I want to pay my mortgage and have "less than Japanlike" taijutsu skills... or do I want to lose my house and live in a box with my mad "Japan like" taijutu skills.

Id certainly NEED them more with the latter being the case...

LOL great point... the time/money that would be involved in going would not be trivial. I've thought about it myself. I doubt I'd be going any time soon. For some people, it might be important enough to remortgage the house, but I can't see myself having the money and time enough to make the trip meaningful enough... I guess if you are careful enough saving ($20 a month for a long time), you could save enough for your 5th dan test... Until that point, is it -needed-? Might be beneficial, but....

MrH

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I love the mentality that you should drop everything and go to japan.

Did I imply anything like that?? :mad:

No matter what you surely can't be suggesting it's negative to ASPIRE to being able to go to Japan.

[Cryozombie]

Did I imply anything like that?? :mad:

No matter what you surely can't be suggesting it's negative to ASPIRE to being able to go to Japan.

No, but lets face it, its TIRING at best to constantly hear things like

If you arent training in japan you arent getting real training

and

I pity you if you dont go to Japan

I think we all get the point that it would be GOOD to go train with the source, but thats not Viable for everyone... and it gets old hearing from those who are there that the rest of us suck because we are not.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

There are several people I know of who have not been to Japan themselves for several years whom I value training with a lot more than many who go there regularly (all of those do train with others who have regularly gone, however). Please stop jumping to conclusions like that.

[Cryozombie]

There are several people I know of who have not been to Japan themselves for several years whom I value training with a lot more than many who go there regularly (all of those do train with others who have regularly gone, however). Please stop jumping to conclusions like that.

Its not just your posts, Nim.

[Bigshadow]

Here we go again.

I love the mentality that you should drop everything and go to japan.

I can certainly see your point. I am in the same situation. I have family, a finite amount of vacation time available any given year (of which it is expected to spend it with family) and a finite amount of money that corellates with the family). In light of all that, I am planning to go in winter of 2006 and try to make it an annual thing. I do think it is important to go if possible. Drink from the source so to speak.

With that said, my personal approach to training is this... I want to train in Japan first and foremost and if I cannot (which happens to be the case for now) I will happily train with teachers who DO TRAIN IN JAPAN regularly.

So in essence, I don't think not going to Japan is a bad thing, the next best thing is to train with people who do. :D

[Shinkengata]

In that case, I pity you.

I'm curious to see some footage of your "taijutsu" to see just exactly how wonderfully better yours is than everyone else's in america, since you've apparently reaped massive benefits of going to Japan. Send me a video. It can be either a hard copy through snail-mail or an mpeg. You "pity" me and im going to find out why. I wanna see how going to Japan to train has made you any different from the thousands of other U.S. BBT practicioners who would have trained in japan and would still get their ass handed to them by MMA or BJJ.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I'm curious to see some footage of your "taijutsu" to see just exactly how wonderfully better yours is than everyone else's in america, since you've apparently reaped massive benefits of going to Japan.

Again, please stop jumping to conclusions. Not one single time have I said the time I spent in Japan was the most beneficial training period for me personally (actually, I would say that period for me would be the fall and winter of 2003).


You "pity" me and im going to find out why.

I pity you because it sounds as if you're satisfied. People who are too satisfied with staying at the level they're currently at in my experience are neither pleasant to train with nor likely to gain any real proficiency.


I wanna see how going to Japan to train has made you any different from the thousands of other U.S. BBT practicioners who would have trained in japan and would still get their ass handed to them by MMA or BJJ.

I don't think this applies to me...

[Cryozombie]

I pity you because it sounds as if you're satisfied. People who are too satisfied with staying at the level they're currently at in my experience are neither pleasant to train with nor likely to gain any real proficiency.

So... you cannot imporve in your skills, if you are satisifed with your training environment?

Hows that work?

[Cryozombie]

U.S. BBT practicioners who would have trained in japan and would still get their ass handed to them by MMA or BJJ.

Haha. Sure. In the ring or on the mats maybe.

Thats another thing I am sick of... this MYTH that MMA and BJJ guys are somehow "magically" unbeatable.

please.

Hows that MMA guy gonna fare on the street when he "shoots" at my legs and I pepper spray his ass then stab a pen into his eye?

Or do they have a magic defense against that too?

:rolleyes:

Its one thing to be good at a fair fight, its another thing when I have my .45

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

So... you cannot imporve in your skills, if you are satisifed with your training environment?

Hows that work?

"He who stops getting better, stops being good."

As a side note, I was at a big seminar recently in which a former Bujinkan 5th dan and now a world-famous BJJ champion attended the dinner party they threw in the evening. He didn't get into a fight with anyone.

[Don Roley]

Here we go again.

I love the mentality that you should drop everything and go to japan.

Got a House, a Job, a Mortgage and a family? Too bad! Go to Japan!

Lessee... Here's me personally...

Do I want to pay my mortgage and have "less than Japanlike" taijutsu skills... or do I want to lose my house and live in a box with my mad "Japan like" taijutu skills.

Id certainly NEED them more with the latter being the case...

Well, this art is centered in Japan, so you should have a current conection with Japan.

If you are not going to Japan yourself, you should be training under a teacher that does when he can. Or train with instructors that do at every chance you can.

There are still a lot of mistakes floating around in the Bujinkan that should be corrected. It is only natural that since we know there were mistakes, that we get a connection to the source to try to find corrections for those mistakes over time.

But just as a general principle, we should always be seeking out better instruction and guidence. There are a lot of people who seem to think they don't have to get any more guidence, and those are the types that make me shake my head.

But in your case, I would advise you to not show up to Japan, at least at your level. You have a connection to Japan throught your teachers and you teacher's teacher. If you ever get to a point where you think that none of the America teachers are in a position to teach you a lot, then it would be time to go to Japan. If you were teaching, I would be more insistent. But really, you should be getting the basics down as best you can at the kyu level and not worry about it now.

But there should be the connection!

[Shinkengata]

Haha. Sure. In the ring or on the mats maybe.

Thats another thing I am sick of... this MYTH that MMA and BJJ guys are somehow "magically" unbeatable.

please.

Hows that MMA guy gonna fare on the street when he "shoots" at my legs and I pepper spray his ass then stab a pen into his eye?

Or do they have a magic defense against that too?

:rolleyes:

Its one thing to be good at a fair fight, its another thing when I have my .45


I was speaking in terms of the unarmed combat. I think it's already been well established that MMA and BJJ tend to play by the rules. My main point is that the way they train has yielded consistently higher quality practicioners than our own art, and going to Japan to train is going to do little to change that if the BBT practicioner continues to train in the half-assed ways i've been seeing for so long. I purchased MMA gloves not long ago because they're light and relatively unobstructive, yet they allow you to practice atemi on your partner with much more ferocity and realism with reduced chance of severe injury.

Nim i apologize if i came off as flaming you.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

My main point is that the way they train has yielded consistently higher quality practicioners than our own art, and going to Japan to train is going to do little to change that if the BBT practicioner continues to train in the half-assed ways i've been seeing for so long.

I agree with you that this way of training is a problem at times in the Bujinkan, that's what I sometimes like to call "Hatsumi syndrome". I think however that you're going to have to be a little more precise when you speak about "higher quality" practitioners. For starters - have you ever wondered why there are relatively few masters (Mestre Bimba of course being a notable exception) of traditional martial arts that look like big and muscular athletes even in their latter years?
The answer - they burned out on the way...


I purchased MMA gloves not long ago because they're light and relatively unobstructive, yet they allow you to practice atemi on your partner with much more ferocity and realism with reduced chance of severe injury.

It doesn't feel the same to get hit with gloves on, I think you already know that.

[Shinkengata]

Beats getting hit full speed with bare knuckles.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Depends on where.

[Cryozombie]

I was speaking in terms of the unarmed combat. I think it's already been well established that MMA and BJJ tend to play by the rules. My main point is that the way they train has yielded consistently higher quality practicioners than our own art, and going to Japan to train is going to do little to change that if the BBT practicioner continues to train in the half-assed ways i've been seeing for so long.

I guess that makes sense, I just see "fighting" from a different perspective.

I wont "fight" with rules like i am in the schoolyard.

So let me ask you this... if you are a "higher quality practicioner" because you have trained, more days a week, with more intensity... and are just better... but wind up getting killed in your first street fight against a guy who is just "not as good as you" because he had a friend and ring fighting doesnt teach a lot of situational awareness,

Are you REALLY better trained? Or just better suited to your environment?

The reason I ask, is because I dont neccessarly think you can compare the two arts... one that teaches you to take a single opponent to the ground and dominate him, vs one that teaches you to use a knife and a stick in a fight, like Escrima or Arnis, to one that teaches you to exploit an opponents weak spots like Taijutsu does. (Im stuck on this eye blinding idea because I am working on, amongst other things, ideas around using distractions to the eyes to break up my opponents timing)

They are all different methods of combat. Comparing them as to which is better is going to depend on the Arena you put them in. Who is better, a cowboy trick shooter who can shoot a moving nickel out of the air, or a Marine Sniper who can hit a target that you or I cant see by looking at it with our naked eye. Depends, are we at a wild west show, or on a bluff overlooking a battlefield?

[Shogun]

I used to have more concerns when I trained every week. now, I only get to train every now and then, an occasional seminar, and those lovely dvds put out by hatsumi so I can see how others move. so, not much anymore. but Bujinkan budo's "weakness" happens to be its biggest strength, the non-specific training. By not adhering to specialized fields of studies


Funny, quick, slightly on topic story:

I was discussing martial arts with an instructor of another art about how weapons and different ryuha are used today. we were discussing Kukishin ryu Biken and he asked the relevance of deep shifting stances, and the large weapons used. I asked him what he'd do if he was sweeping his patio, and some guy comes up and tries to hold him up? maybe with a machete or knife? and other similar questions. see, his chosen art form does not have much as far as "environmental training" is concerned. also, the training they do does have self defense applications, but the view is limited, and it is quite possible they may overlook an important life saving aspect.