Did Karate originate from Okinawa, or China?
What is your perspective? There are many stories about where karate Originated from.

One story is that Funakoshi (the "father" of Modern Karate) learned Karate in Okinawa and was asked to deminstrate his ability in Japan and that evryone liked the deminstration so Funakoshi taught Karate to the Japanese. Here Funakoshi changed the name from Te-do to Karate- Do.

Another story is that Miyagi (the founder of Okinawin Goju-Rye Karate) somehow got to china and the chinese taught Miyagi the Martial Arts. Miyagi later came back to Okinawa and taught the Martial art to the Okinawins. So did Karate Originate from china or Okinawa?

I will take all your opinions that I can get. This will hopefully help me get the answer to the Question posted.

Sincerely, Eric

There is no specific date and place.

Basically there was the Okinawan fighting art, called "te" for hand. But there was a large cultural connection to China, as Okinawa makes a great trading post in that region it kida bounced back and forth between China and Japan as to where it drew most of its influence from.

At one point China gave a cultural gift of 36 families setting up in Okinawa to teach the Chinese arts (how literally family should be read is questionable), this brought Chinese martial arts.

Many of the martial artists also travelled to China to study martial arts, medicine, etc. Bringing more Chinese influence.

"te" became "to-te", the first symbol refering originally to the Tang dynasty, but spoke in Okinawan (Tang soo do - same characters).

After Okinawa became a Japanese Prefecture the name started to shift to karate, or "Empty hand" in order to distance itself from China, as the Japanese didn't care too much for the Chinese at the time.

I'm quite sure Funakoshi wasn't the first to use "karate" as the name, but as he became the most influential instructor in Japan he often gets credited for creating the name, when really his role was more cementing it.

In 1936 the Okinawan master had a meeting to discuss the future of karate, and the name was one of the issues. They decided that as "karate" was the name being used in Tokyo, and the youth looked to Tokyo for influence that was the best name to promote the art under.

Did Karate originate from Okinawa, or China?
What is your perspective? There are many stories about where karate Originated from.

One story is that Funakoshi (the "father" of Modern Karate) learned Karate in Okinawa and was asked to deminstrate his ability in Japan and that evryone liked the deminstration so Funakoshi taught Karate to the Japanese. Here Funakoshi changed the name from Te-do to Karate- Do.

Another story is that Miyagi (the founder of Okinawin Goju-Rye Karate) somehow got to china and the chinese taught Miyagi the Martial Arts. Miyagi later came back to Okinawa and taught the Martial art to the Okinawins. So did Karate Originate from china or Okinawa?

I will take all your opinions that I can get. This will hopefully help me get the answer to the Question posted.

Sincerely, Eric
What you state here, and what Andrew Green states, are all true, to my knowledge. Okinawa had it's own fighting systems known as 'Te', with a couple different regional variations. It was influenced by Chinese martial arts, i believe including Miyagi spending time in China (tho he was not the first or last). There were also Chinese in Okinawa who brought their arts and influenced the development of Te.

The story is commonly accepted that Funakoski was an Okinawan who demonstrated Te in Japan, and thereby introduced what became Karate to Japan.

I know there are several commonly available books that can give you more info, but I don't have their titles handy...

"Karate-Do; my way of life" by Gichin Funakoshi would be a good place to start.

Karate came from me. I am the fountainhead of all wisdom.

Regards,

Me.

Karate is Okinawan. It is a combination of native Okinawan arts and a strong Chinese influence. Here are some threads to look at for more info.:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1521
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=812
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=804
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11422
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1603

How native is native? How far back do we want to go?

Many would argue that Karate's original roots came from Bodhi Daruma (Indian monk), who travelled and spread around his style of boxing to China, which then eventually spread to Okinawa, and then to Japan.

How native is native? How far back do we want to go?

Many would argue that Karate's original roots came from Bodhi Daruma (Indian monk), who travelled and spread around his style of boxing to China, which then eventually spread to Okinawa, and then to Japan.
I suspect that this is overly simplified. All cultures have had combat methods since humanity climbed down from the trees. People have fought each other for ever, and they have all had their methods. This includes the ancient Okinawans

This also includes the ancient Chinese peoples. They had martial arts long before Daruma. Assuming the legend of Daruma is true, this only establishes one martial lineage of many. It just happens to be the one that got a lot of press.

How native is native? How far back do we want to go?

Many would argue that Karate's original roots came from Bodhi Daruma (Indian monk), who travelled and spread around his style of boxing to China, which then eventually spread to Okinawa, and then to Japan.
This is still in debate, the part over Dhurama. Many Chinese MAists say that chinses martial arts predates the Shaolin Temple. The ones accepted into the ranks of the Shaolin soceity brought with them their own fighting arts and that they taught them to the other monks and these were all refined. My info comes from the documentary that A&E had on some time back. Dhurama taught a version of Yoga to the monks so they could pray better and not fall asleep.

This all depends on the perspective of “originated”. In Japan it is accepted that Funakoshi brought it over from Okinawa. Given that then Japanese karate originated in Okinawa. From Okinawa, the history becomes a little more blurred due to much of the historical records being destroyed during the WW but, most point to China with a lot of kata coming directly from China . Now from the China perspective I have no clue I have heard India and heard that it is indigenous to the country.

I think we must go styles-specific. Because each major styles of Karate has different histories.

There are several prominent Okinawan teachers whom people believed to have been schooled in Chinese Kungfu in mainland China. People such as Bushi Matsumura, Tode Sakugawa, Aragaki Seisho, Uechi Kanbun and Higashionna Kanryo studied in China or so to speak.

From here we can go to style-specific. Matsumura taught Anko Itosu, whom taught Funakoshi, whom later taught Nakayama who founded JKA Shotokan. Aragaki Seisho taught Higashionna, who later taught Miyagi Chojun and Mabuni Kenwa. Miyagi founded Goju-ryu and Mabuni founded Shito-ryu. Uechi Kanbun taught his son Uechi Kanei, who later found Uechi-ryu.

Matsumura also taught his nephew, Matsumura Nabe, whom later taught Hohan Soken, whom later founded Matsumura Seito Shorin-ryu Karatedo.

Itosu has many students other than Funakoshi, and his students founded Shorin-ryu, which has many streams.

Isshin-ryu was founded by Shimabukuro sensei who studied both Shorin-ryu and Goju-ryu from Miyagi sensei.

Mabuni sensei has many students, and thus his Shito-ryu also has many derivatives, such as the Iwata-Ha Shito-ryu, Tani-Ha Shito-ryu, Hayashi-ha Shito-ryu Kuniba-Ha (Motobu-Ha) Shito-ryu etc.

Goju-kai was founded by Yamaguchi sensei who studied with Miyagi sensei.

Wado-ryu was founded by Otsuka sensei, who combined Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu and Yagyu Shinkage-ryu Kenjutsu with the teachings of Funakoshi, Miyagi and Motobu.

Kyokushin was founded by Oyama who studied Goju-ryu with So Neichu (a student of Yamaguchi) and also with Funakoshi san. Oyama was also a licensed Daito-ryu teacher under Yoshida Kotaro, and he incorporate some Jujutsu techniques in Kyokushin self-defenses.

We must also consider the influences of Chinese people who visited Okinawa to teach, for example Mr. Go Kenki, a white crane stylist who lived in Okinawa in early 20th century. His teachings were incorporated into some streams of Okinawan Karate.

So in essence, Okinawan Karate can be considered as late 19th century-early 20th century Okinawan adaptation of Chinese Kungfu.

I am sure I made many mistakes here, so elders and senseis please correct me :)

Itosu has many students other than Funakoshi, and his students founded Shorin-ryu, which has many streams.

Actually, many Shorin ryu branches don't have much to do with Itosu, but Kyan. Chotoku Kyan was taught by, among others, Matsumura. Some branches of Shorin(ji) ryu karate that are in Kyan lineage: Shorin ryu Seibukan, Shorinji ryu Kenkokan, Okinawan Shorinji ryu, Shobayashi Shorin ryu, Shorinji ryu Renshinkan and Kokusai Shorinji ryu to name a few (I've probably forgotten some). Also the founders of Matsubayashi ryu and Isshin ryu were students of Kyan

Wado-ryu was founded by Otsuka sensei, who combined Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu and Yagyu Shinkage-ryu Kenjutsu with the teachings of Funakoshi, Miyagi and Motobu.

I don't practise Wado ryu, so I can't be sure, but I think that Otsuka didn't study with Miyagi. Funakoshi and Motobu, sure and at least according to some web pages also with Mabuni

Actually, many Shorin ryu branches don't have much to do with Itosu, but Kyan. Chotoku Kyan was taught by, among others, Matsumura. Some branches of Shorin(ji) ryu karate that are in Kyan lineage: Shorin ryu Seibukan, Shorinji ryu Kenkokan, Okinawan Shorinji ryu, Shobayashi Shorin ryu, Shorinji ryu Renshinkan and Kokusai Shorinji ryu to name a few (I've probably forgotten some). Also the founders of Matsubayashi ryu and Isshin ryu were students of Kyan

Thank you for the corrections sensei!



I don't practise Wado ryu, so I can't be sure, but I think that Otsuka didn't study with Miyagi. Funakoshi and Motobu, sure and at least according to some web pages also with Mabuni

Yes, when i wrote Miyagi sensei actually I meant Mabuni sensei. It was a typographical error :) Sorry for the confusion!

From what I gathered, Otsuka sensei's principal Karate teacher was Funakoshi sensei. But Otsuka sensei was a close friend of Konishi Yasuhiro sensei of Shinto Jinen-ryu (Ryobukai), and often Otsuka sensei visited Konishi sensei's dojo. So Otsuka sensei studied with Mabuni sensei and Motobu san during those sessions in Konishi's dojo.

Thank you for the corrections.

Thank you for the corrections sensei!

Sensei ? Me ? :uhyeah: Thanks for the compliment, but I'm still a student, not even a black belt yet :)

Sensei ? Me ? :uhyeah: Thanks for the compliment, but I'm still a student, not even a black belt yet :)

Hehehe, same here, I have spent 5 years in this Wado club (3 years in Goju before it), and have been 3rd Kyu for 2 years :( me = lazy person :P

I think we must go styles-specific. Because each major styles of Karate has different histories.

I think you're right. Generalizing makes matters seem much simpler than they really were. Uechi is unique, I feel, for instance.



So in essence, Okinawan Karate can be considered as late 19th century-early 20th century Okinawan adaptation of Chinese Kungfu.

I think in fairness that many styles are not only an adapted form of kung fu, but also merged indigenous Okinawan techniques and practices in (most notably with regard to weapons, of course; see this thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1603)); for the contributions of various arts to Karate, see this thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=812). I would start from the early 19th century but I basically agree with you.

Everyone knows that Japanese Karate comes from Chinese Gung-Fu!
Thats what the man said...

If I may, Karate comes from two seperate lineages. First, before Sokon Bushi Matsumura or Tode Sakugawa the fighting arts of the Okinawa Royal guard came with King Shunten. He was actually the son of Minamoto Tometomo and it is believed that the Samurai left to watch over Shunten taught him the Minamoto ways. Of course this lineage is also the forerunner of Daito Ryu Aikijutsu of Sokaku Takeda. Sakugawa was interested and learned some Chinese Martial Arts from Kusanku. Matsumura was said to have seen the logic in this and went to China for 26 years to study, where he learned the Fukien White Crane and the Shantung Black Tiger systems of the Lohan. Thats the way it was explained to me.

Did Karate originate from Okinawa, or China?
What is your perspective? There are many stories about where karate Originated from.

One story is that Funakoshi (the "father" of Modern Karate) learned Karate in Okinawa and was asked to deminstrate his ability in Japan and that evryone liked the deminstration so Funakoshi taught Karate to the Japanese. Here Funakoshi changed the name from Te-do to Karate- Do.

Another story is that Miyagi (the founder of Okinawin Goju-Rye Karate) somehow got to china and the chinese taught Miyagi the Martial Arts. Miyagi later came back to Okinawa and taught the Martial art to the Okinawins. So did Karate Originate from china or Okinawa?

I will take all your opinions that I can get. This will hopefully help me get the answer to the Question posted.

Sincerely, Eric


Karate originated on the Ryukyu islands/Okinawa. karate is the original Okinawan native systems mixed with chinese systems from fukuin provance of southern china. if it was simply transplanted chinese martial arts, it would have be called "chuan fa" from the begianing till now. what makes karate karate is the blending and refining of what the okinawans liked and found fit them from the fukiun crane systems and provably a few others and what they had developed on their own from weapons work and their own unarmed systems. with out a fairly heavy Okinawan influince it really is not and should not be called Karate.

Boxing, Wrestling, Exercise and arresting holds (things that are common to all cultures) were all merged into a stand-alone, multi-purpose physical culture practiced as an art rather than serving the specific purposes of it's parent disciplines. Chan/Zen Buddhism was the collagen that held it together.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Buddhism#Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Buddhism#Japan)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art#Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art#Japan)

Was the orginally question a general broad stroke or was it specific?

The term Karate can be used either way, in the USA the term karate can be a very general meaning, must people use it loosely to mean all types of Martial Arts.

If the question refers directly to Karate Do now this is specific and will refer to the history of this Art specifically.

Which is it?

Karate was created on okinawa. It drew heavily, but not exclusively on chinese kungfu (or chuanfa, since kungfu is bad terminology), it also incorporated skills imported from other parts of asia, along with the native Ryukyu boxing arts. The chinese influence came over in several waves, but never replaced the okinawan arts. only strongly influenced them.

But saying that karate originated in china is very wrong. It is the okinawan origin that defines karate. Both Miyagi and his okinawan teacher kanryu studied chuanfa in Fukien China, for a few years each, but they didnt learn everything they knew there. They also drew on a base of okinawan "karate" teachings, and blended it all in what finaly became goju ryu.

Some karate styles, like uechi ryu, is more influenced by chinese chunfa than other styles of karate. Kanbun Uechi had almost no martial art training at all before he went to live in Fukien, china, and actually didnt start his own style until he lived in mainland japan (after first moving back to his native okinawa from china for several years), not teaching in okinawa until Kanbun was old and his son opened a dojo there. But those are exceptions.

This brings up a point which I'm gonna post in the Kung Fu section. Did Shaolin and WuDan practices exist as martial arts before the popularization of TouDi? Or were they simply exercise sequences? Did the Chinese develop "martial arts" after seeing what Kamo and Funakoshi were up to? Allen Pittman has observed that there are similarities between BaGua and some Orissa Dances from India. Patrick McCarthy referes to Boxing, Wrestling, forms (I'm assuming animal frolics or Yoga) and arresting holds as parent disciplines of TouDi. It makes me wonder if the Chinese forms had any practical hand to hand combat content or if they were simply exercises and dances.

Karate still originates. My karate came from me with a little help from my sensei.

This brings up a point which I'm gonna post in the Kung Fu section. Did Shaolin and WuDan practices exist as martial arts before the popularization of TouDi? Or were they simply exercise sequences? Did the Chinese develop "martial arts" after seeing what Kamo and Funakoshi were up to? Allen Pittman has observed that there are similarities between BaGua and some Orissa Dances from India. Patrick McCarthy referes to Boxing, Wrestling, forms (I'm assuming animal frolics or Yoga) and arresting holds as parent disciplines of TouDi. It makes me wonder if the Chinese forms had any practical hand to hand combat content or if they were simply exercises and dances.

yes the chinese had systemized Chuan Fa for a long time before 1500 or so AD. there were schools and of course the shaulin monistarys that tought systems of combat. the systems that sakagawa learned from kusanku and some others were already systems in their own right. some where chinese, some Okinawan.

Greetings,

A bit about Uechi Ryu. Kanbun Uechi took a trip to China to avoid being conscripted into the military actually. While there he studied at the Central Temple in Fukien Province with Master Zhou Tzu Ho (his Okinawan name is Shushiwa). He was taught a martial art called Pangainoon (which means half hard - half soft), a system based on the movements of the Tiger, Dragon and Crane. It consisted of 3 kata if memory serves, Sanchin, Seisan and San Seiru (sp), as well as several training exercises I'm not familiar with. After studying there for about 10 years he made his way back to Okinawa. He continued his training adding components of Okinawan Karate, from which styles I do not know. Master Uechi married and became a farmer but did not teach publically. He had to be tricked into teaching by a friend who would tell him "accounts" of fights he was supposedly in and asked his advice on what he should have done. He finally opened a dojo and taught until his death at the age of 71. Today, Uechi Ryu Karate-Do is one of the most highly regarded styles taught in Okinawa.

It has a very interesting history. Anyone interested should google it.

Regards,
Ins

yep, that is what my reserch indicated in the case of Uechi Ryu as well.