Should black belt and subsequent degrees of it be harder to obtain?

I see all these multiple ranked people and many of them are so young. I saw a TKD 8 year old kid who was a 3rd degree on TV.

Myself, I think black belt should not be given out until 18. Before that they should have a junior program or something. I know that kids are school's bread and butter but maybe they can have the same belts but with a stripe or something.

But on top of that it seems that everyone has a black belt these days and many people can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Is it too easy now? Jeff was telling us what it was like in the old days.

I consider black the point when people become serious students but how can an 8 year old kid have 3rd degree? He's 8 fer cryin' out loud!

I think if you get your rank easy you will give it out easy. Far too many grandmasters for my liking.

:soapbox:

See "McDojo".

I once asked a school owner if his Black Belts were fully qualified. He said yes. (Ages ran from 10-15, I was 18-19 at the time). I offered to spar with em, 10 on 1. He was afraid they would get hurt. Now, I was a no belt...you mean a -REAL- black belt couldn't defend properly against a no belt?

I'm sorry, but if youre 8, or even 15, and a black belt, I think its not worth the fabric its made outta. I know 1 school where -EVERY- fn black belt is a "Sensei". I'm sorry, but I aint calling no 12 year old "Master". They haven't earned it. Bought it maybe, but not earned.

Just my 2 cents.

BJJ rules say: "No blue belt until !6"

I think that's fair. They have some different colors available for kids ranking, but it's definitely different.

Let the kids earn the camo blet, and the tiger strip belt... leave the BB and higher for the ones who really earned em.

I quite agree

I trained for 14 years to achieve shodan, not because I dont understand or am slow but because I wanted to fully understand what I was doing before I considerd myself worth the rank.

Every one please take the time to promote quality in the martial arts.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/kempo-jujitsu/

Personally, I don't think a person should be allowed to test for black belt until they're 18. Not only do the younger students most likely not the have physical development required, but there has to be a level of maturity for the rank. Also, I think it's important that the person earning the black belt be a legal adult, just in case they have to use their skills and somebody gets seriously hurt.

However, it should be taken on a case by case basis, for some people. I've met a few (very few) 16 year-olds who were more mature than 26 year-olds. If that 16 year-old had been with me for several (5+) years, and demonstrated maturity, I may let them test for black belt. Other than that, I think the 'junior black belt' is a good idea for children and young teens. When they turn 18, they can then test for a black belt.

The Okinawa-te ranking system is a bit different than other systems. There are no dan rankings for black belt. Everything after black belt is based on seniority and the number of additional forms learned (Okinawa-te kata are hideously long :D). So, once a person reaches black belt in Okinawa-te, not only are they allowed to teach, but they are allowed to award rank (up to black belt). I know of one TKD school where the teacher is a 2nd degree black belt, but the tests are conducted by his instructor, a 5th degree black belt.

Like my instructor, I don't expect people to call me 'sensei' or 'sir'. If they can pronounce it (:D), they can call me by my first name. I like it casual, but still respectful...not just to me, but amongst the students as well.

Grrr. Babbling yet again.

Cthulhu

Mister or Ma'am is ok. Mrs. or Miss, Sir is ok. Really, it costs nothing to be polite.

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Personally, I don't think a person should be allowed to test for black belt until they're 18.

I largely agree, though I might consider 16 for black belt. I find these very young black belts embarrassing. To begin with, they have no power in their techniques.

The Okinawa-te ranking system you describe sounds interesting. I am reminded of the fact that in many traditional Japanese systems there are no ranks, only a succession of teaching licenses. Do you have a link for this system?


Like my instructor, I don't expect people to call me 'sensei' or 'sir'. If they can pronounce it (:D), they can call me by my first name. I like it casual, but still respectful...not just to me, but amongst the students as well.


I prefer a bit more formality much of the time though when I teach Modern Arnis I follow the same first-name route, in deference to the Professor's desire for a relaxed, informal, fun experience for the students.

The original ranking system was simply white belts for students and black belts for instructors. Belt colors were added, those being from low to high: white, yellow, purple, blue, green, brown, black.

At one time, there were dan rankings, but Shihan Doversola got rid of those (I can't remember when). I know this caused at least one person to leave, since he was anticipating another dan ranking. He eventually founded his own system called Wa-te ryu, which is almost exactly the same as Okinawa-te, except the kata names are translated into Japanese. And they have dan rankings :)

Personally, I've been tinkering with the idea of going back to an intermediate system, back when the rankings in many systems was simply white, green, brown, black. However, this may cause problems with the North American attitude of instant gratification. I'll have to research this more.

As for the ranking system for traditional Japanese bujujutsu ryu-ha...

It is true that the Japanese systems traditionally do not use belt (kyu/dan) rankings. Instead, they rely on licenses or certificates. I think the first license of any real significance is the okuden (though I think there are a couple of levels below this), which basically says you've learned all the basic techniques. I'd say it parallels a shodan. Then there is the menkyo or menkyo-kaiden, which signifies mastery of the system. Back in the 'good old days', a person usually only received one menkyo in his lifetime, which is in stark contrast to the multitude of multi-system black belts we have today.

Gah. I'm pulling this out of the deepest recesses of my befuddled mind, so there's a slight chance I may have gotten a fact or two screwed up.

Any other questions?

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Any other questions?


No, thanks. This was interesting, and I found some related web sites on Okinawa-te. Having all those old Black Belt etc. articles available online is handy.

I completely forgot about those articles! I think there are some old Black Belt and Inside Karate articles on Okinawa-te floating around on the Web. There are Web sites for a few schools, but I don't think any of them have been updated for about a year or so.

My instructor just registered a domain name and is beginning to work up content for an Okinawa-te site that will hopefully have more information than what is currently available on the Web. Also, it should be kept more up to date as well.

Thanks for reminding me about those articles. It's been awhile :D

Cthulhu

I think too many have bastardized the black belt. Lets give one for grades, lets give one for attendance. Never forget the Black Belt for prepaid memberships.

It took me 6 and a half yrs to get my 1st degree Black Belt and many weeks I was there Monday - Saturday for structured classes, and I had a key and practiced on sundays as well. I started working with the kids classes after my third class because I was an assistant gymnastics coach. I usually had 30 - 40 hours a week in the school, always on the floor.

As for making the degrees of Black belt harder I believe it is our responsiblity to make it harder on ourselves, not have it as set in stone requirement. If a Black Belt in Kenpo spent the time between first and second degree going over every technique and thoroughly explored them by prefixing, suffixing,inserting, modifying, altering, adding,deleting,rearranging,blending, and condensing. They will now have a wealth of knowledge. Now taking the time to do this again with the techniques and their extensions. And things will get progressively harder.

Then there is always doing the techniques forward and backwards on video so that you can find the holes in your technique, and your flaws in motion.

We do not need anyone to make it harder for us, we should be making it harder on ourselves.

If there was to be anything added to make it harder I would have to say a personal form. Utilizing a full breakdown of every technique and transition. Along with a breakdown of the hows and whys.

Interesting point Rob. I think one possible problem with some black belts is that their goal is the rank, not the knowlage and ablity that are required to get it. Many people have the idea that when you reach you black belt you are "done" the game is over and you know every thing. One of the things I like about Aikido is that when you reach the rank of black belt (Shodan) you are consitered a "serious student" and your training truely begins, black belt is also the teaching rank. A sensei is not a master but just a student like every one else.



Despair Bear

Originally posted by Despairbear
One of the things I like about Aikido is that when you reach the rank of black belt (Shodan) you are consitered a "serious student" and your training truely begins, black belt is also the teaching rank. A sensei is not a master but just a student like every one else.

I was told this very early on in my study of karate--a black belt is a "true beginner". I believe it. In many Japanese and Okinawan styles one isn't considered a teacher until 3rd or 4th dan and a shodan is at most an assistant instructor.

I truly believe that one studies the martial arts, and that one must remain a student of them. Even training with material one knows already there are always new variations, applications, efficiencies, and tricks to learn, and more understanding to gain of why things are done as they are.

The very term sensei is often translated as "one who has experienced things in life before you", emphasizing the learning aspect, not the teaching.

Good points. I think one must always seek more, and practice what they know. I mean, how many folks earned a blackbelt 20 yrs ago, stopped doing anything, yet still consider themselves "Good"? If you don't continue to 'learn', you start to 'unlearn'...The whole use it or lose it saying, I guess.

As I'll be saying for a while at least until people start to recognize my name here, I'm new. :) I think DespairBear has a point. The potential problem with rankings is that people's work may be geared mainly towards gaining/earning the next rank rather than learning the material. I've heard that this is one reason the traditional Chinese martial arts don't use a belt ranking system. Everyone is a student all the time and there's always more to learn since you can't be perfect in everything. The thing is people often like to have a measure of their progress and a ranking system provides that. Instant gratification thing? It's nicer to have checkpoints than to just keep working and working? *shrug* I've also heard the idea that with rankings, once you get to something high like a black belt is supposed to be the point where you start to realize how little you actually do know. Just some comments from the little I know or have heard. I'm sure I'll learn more as I go along and by reading the board here (that's part of why I joined).

I'm going to paraphrase Despairbear and say that a master is someone who will always be a student. Some people's idea of a master is somebody who has learned it all. Well, if you've learned it all, what's the point in going on? There are too many people who reach black belt and stop, thinking that's the end of the journey.

Story time!:boing1:

One day, a young man visited the dojo of a renowned karate teacher. After the class, the man inquired about classes. Eventually, he asked, "How long will it take for me to become a black belt?"

To which the teacher replied, "Five years."

The young man paused a moment and then asked, "How long would it take if I came to class every day of the week for an hour?"

To this, the teacher replied "7 years."

Growing a bit confused, the young man asked, "How long will it take if I came every day, for twice as long and twice as hard as everybody else?"

The teacher replied, "10 years."

In dismay, the man asked, "How come when I tell you I'll train longer and harder, you tell me it will take longer and longer to become a black belt?"

"Because," said the teacher, "with one eye fixed upon your goal, you can have only one eye to see the Way."

I'm sure most of you have heard this story before (with probably quite a bit more eloquence, I daresay!), but I think I got the point across.

So many people look at the black belt rank as a final goal to attain, when it is merely another rung up the ladder of knowledge.

Bah. I'm getting melodramatic. I'd better shut up now.:wavey:

Cthulhu

I like story time. can we hear Goldilocks next?

But seriously Cthulhu, you have some good points in what you have said in this topic. People need to take their time and enjoy the experience and not over focus ion the next stripe on their belt.

Good thing to say. Don't worry about making taht next rank, worry about being good enough for it.

This comes from Confucius: The Master said: “Do not worry about lack of fame; worry about lack of ability.”

Once at a meeting of Judo big wigs I suggested we do away with belt ranks for sport Judo. You should have been there to hear the howls!
:soapbox:

There certainly is a few ways to look at this. First providing the child earns the belt vs buying it....They have worked hard to get it and should not be discounted simply because those around him/her are much larger and overwhelming. The ability to win ANY fight is not a fair requirement. These kids are our future and the future of martial arts. we have to allow them the right to figure all this out for themselves when it becomes important enough for them to do so...I think about where I was at that age and I would grab anyone with a smidgon of knowledge to teach me what they knew.

Children learn quickly, have tremendous resiliance and need to be training vs the street. Personally, most of the time I don't give a #$%@ if an adult has a black belt. We will never as a whole move toward the "martial" side of the art while it's about $$$$. BB are status that tells most that you have worked to physically perfect forms and to some degree demonstrate relevent power and sparring ability. Again relevent. If we compare a child to an adult then their rank will never come. Again, assuming that they earned that belt, think about that kid as an adult if they continue to train....Now I think about that adult if they learn to make what they know combative. (mix arts, study combat, empty their cup and KEEP learning) Again, I mean no disrespect but most arts are antiquated and trying to sell fighting with muskets when many others have lazer guided uzi's....Belts are static and personally I think they should ONLY be given to children. Adults should work for more evolved goals as well as more functional ones

Ultimately the ability, attitude and future of the child is in the hands of an Instructor. In this respect we are only pointers of "a" way...not the way.

Alright, I will shut up:soapbox:

I agree with most of what you have to say, Jim. The main thing I'm concerned about with a child earning (not his parents buying) a BB is level of maturity. Your typical 13-year-old will invariably not be as mature as your typical 18-year-old. Of course, it could be argued that a 13-year-old BB is not your typical 13-year-old.:D

In the Okinawa-te system, not only are black belts allowed to teach, but also allowed to award rank; there are no dan rankings in Okinawa-te. Very few people would take a 13-year-old martial arts instructor or assistant instructor seriously.

This is why I like the idea of a junior black belt. To me, it indicates that the child in question has put in the time and dedication to learn all the requirements and that he/she should be accorded a level of respect. It could also help instill in the student that the BB is not the end of training, merely another step along the way. The junior BB could very easily be an assistant instructor for children's classes, since this would give him/her teaching experience as well as giving the children a peer as a role model.

When the instructor feels the junior BB has reached an acceptable level of maturity, or they turn 18, whichever comes first, they may test for black belt, or just be awarded it if they have continued to be active after earning the junior BB. If the system the person is studying requires a testing fee for a black belt, it should be waived for someone who has earned their junior BB. I don't know how sticky as issue that is since Okinawa-te doesn't require a testing fee for BB.

My turn to shut up :D

Cthulhu

I've seen little to disagree with you on...I agree that a child is not mature enough to teach adults. I believe that they should stay involved as an assistant to help other children....They cannot have the depth of understanding needed to be at the level an adult bb must be. yet as a child they have excelled and can teach these things to a point to other kids. In teaching they will continue to get better. If a bb is what it used to be most adults that have them...shouldn't...


J

I agree. I see far too many BB's who have very poor form. They're great people, and they know the motions, but the execution of the technique just comes off as very sloppy.

Imagine, though...a kid gets his junior BB at 13, but continues training and assisting with the teaching of other children. I've always believed that teaching helps you understand the material even better. When that kid grows up and is ready to recieve a 'normal' black belt, imagine how potentially awesome that person would be.

Cthulhu

As I said eariler...I really think they have to be seen as our future. I don't teach kids (except my son) I leave that to others. But yeah... I wish I were that BB kid at age 13 or 9. I had to sneak around to get lessons. Hard to get a BB that way.
I did get good at sneaking around...Early JKD training... Find out what their game is and find ways to cheat...JKD fight

I think JKD isn't really good for most children. Before anyone jumps on my back, lemme explain why.

I've said it here a dozen times already...I believe for a person to truly appreciate the concepts and philosophies behind JKD, they need to have appreciable experience in a 'classical' system. So, JKD is a bad choice for Little Timmy's first MA class. However, if we're talking about one of my theoretical junior black belts, they just may be able to 'get it'. However, some of the concepts Lee took straight out of Taoism may be a bit much for them until they get a bit older.

Cthulhu

I agree that JKD isn't great for kids. Unless you have altered the program and teach a watered down version. This, and an appropriate Instructor.
I'm not too sure about needing to have traditional arts background. I believe that you need to have maturity first and foremost. Dan Inosanto has stated that of all those he has taught, he most enjoys teaching people with no background, then from there it would be a kung fu background, and from there lastly a karate background. Not to knock any of it but simply because of circular vs linear orientation in training.
I have taught some extraordinary TKD people who will always look like a TKD person trying to be JKD (if you can picture that). have taught my son and he has done very well with it. For many kids are the $$$saviors of a school. Because I don't teach kids I end up having to be very creative in advertising :mad:
I have taught people with Brain injuries and their abilty to intergrate new learning is quite different. A challenge actually completely opposite of kids.

Well, I'm not saying that an untrained person can't make a good JKD practitioner...not at all! What I believe is that an untrained person can't fully appreciate some of the underlying philosophies of JKD...particularly the ones about breaking away from tradition, form, etc., since they don't have that background to draw from. You can't be liberated from 'the classical mess' if you were never bound by 'the classical mess'.

I find it ironic that Inosanto has karateka last on his list, considering his kenpo background :D Then again, there are some very distinct stylistic differences between kenpo and traditional Japanese/Okinawan karate.

As far as the TKD people and others who 'look like a TKD person trying to be JKD', it all comes down to the individual, I guess. Martial arts training in general involves 'programming' the muscles, nerves, reflexes, etc. After so many years in a traditional system, I can see how some may find it hard to 'reprogram' themselves. I'm sure some just find it easier to do than others. I don't think many people see too much kenpo in what Inosanto does nowadays :D I'm sure that if I were ever fortunate enough to train in JKD, for some time, I'd look like an Okinawa-te person trying to do JKD. I don't think I'd be that way for long, but it is reasonable to expect that stage in my progression.

Guh. Babbling again!

Cthulhu
and I believe this is my black belt post!

To me, it's funny how the perception of a black belt as the instructor is passed on to every art. In January, I decided to really focus on training BJJ, having had a taste of it a few years earlier. Coming up in a school that taught Modern Arnis and Kenpo, I was certainly conditioned to expect a black belt instructor.

When shopping around, I found a purple belt teaching not too far away. (Mr. Kyle) I thought, "How good is a purple belt?", and went to check it out. Well, I didn't grapple with Kyle that first day, but his white belts smoked me like a Cuban cigar.

:uhoh:

I've since learned that the BJJ rank standards are very high. A blue belt generally has 2-5 yrs. of experience. Kyle was purple at 6 yrs, when I started, and has since been promoted to brown.

I then think how many martial artists would scoff at training with a brown belt, even though their training time would exceed many black belts in other arts. It's a very tough standard to apply within any one art, let alone across styles.

:confused:

I am enjoying this thread and I think several people have made many good points. I want to throw a couple thoughts into th mix (some may be repeats as I skimmed a couple of the posts):
1. I think the age is not necessarily the issue, but the maturity and ability level and that usually kids do not have those to earn what we consider black belt level.
2. I realized in my own training that when I started out in Tae Kwon Do a few years ago, I was going for the black belt. The day I received it and was driving home from the test, a light went off in my head. Since then my goal was to become a better martial artist and not seek the belt. Instead, I see the belt as a natural consequence of training and dedication, so I accept these, but we each know in our heart and minds whether or not we have truly "earned" it or not whether or not someone gives it to us.
3. Several have mentioned black belt as a beginning, I agree with this. I see it as sort of like graduating from high school. You have some basic skills but to reach higher learning you must seek further knowledge and development.
4. A black belt who has not trained in their art or practiced in a long time I think really "isn't" a black belt anymore. As Oliver Cromwell (I think) said, "He who stops being better stops being good." It is a quote I keep close to heart on days I don't feel like training.

Cheers,
Bryan:)

Excellent quote, Bryan! Thanks for sharing!

I agree with that sentiment completely. Look at Bruce Lee. He eventually reached a point where none of his students could touch him. The few challengers he humored near the end of his life couldn't touch him. However, despite his hectic schedule as an actor and celebrity, he still found ways to continue his training, in order to better himself.

For us mere mortals (:D), no matter how good our egos allow us to believe we are, there is always something better. This could be seen as a somewhat 'gunslinger' attitude toward training, so I'll use another phrasing. We can always be better than we were the day before. We can continue to improve simply by kicking higher than we did the day before. Punching faster. Blocking better. In a real fight, you have a real opponent out to knock yer block off. In training, your only real opponent is yourself. So, if you can kick the a$$ of the person you were yesterday, you're on the right track :D

Cthulhu

Cthulhu... I really like that last part...It's true of everyone...we are our worst enemies. Bruce would say that "MA is honestly expressing one's self". I would add to that it's also ultimately working towards conquering one's self as well. We start with our egos. I have that going for us, belts are nothing. In the end we go after our fears. If we get them and still have our egos in tact we can then show REAL compassion and become better people.
Ok too much. but you get the gist of it ...Right? :soapbox:

Yep, I get the gist. :D Bruce also talked about reaching a stage where, if he were to be confronted in a fight, he wouldn't attack, but 'it' would. I see that 'it' as being the id. Once the ego is 'put in its place', and we have properly replaced our improper, inefficient reflexes with combat effective reflexes, then we can simply allow the id, the subconcious if you will, work for us. Thus, when faced with some attack, you don't have to think about a counter, you don't have to worry about how effective the counter will be, you don't worry about looking bad in front of any bystanders. 'It' just happens.

I've found that a lot of martial artists who've had to used their skills in a real fight often have trouble recalling exactly what they did. Their bodies, having had years of conditioning and neuro-muscular programming, simply responded for them.

Cthulhu

Bruce used to spar just boxing with one hand against Dan and James and one day he was doing this with James Lee who was the Hong Kong " golden gloves" equlivient champion. James couldn't touch him ever. this one day Bruce got hit by the lace of James's glove and Bruce's other hand came up. according n he hit James so hard so often Dan couldn't even see it. quickly James was on the ground with a broken jaw. Bruce walked away looked at Dan and said I know you don't agree with what happened but I can't help it...it just happens"

As related to me by Dan Inosanto through Paul Vunak

I read that story somewhere, but I swear it was Dan Lee and not James Lee. Maybe the names got mixed up somewhere? I'd have to lean toward Dan Lee, because James was no mere student, or instructor, but a very close family friend. The two Lee families practically lived as one integrated family for quite some time. Also, where ever I read that story also had a quote from Dan Lee regarding the incident.

Cthulhu

You're right. I tend to mix the two up. I have never read that story anywhere however. It does tell some about how Bruce would respond. There are many others with Joe Lewis and other unknowns

many many years ago, one of my teachers at the gun range Handed me a paper after 60 hours of training, i was 15 at the time. When he certified me what he said has stayed with me since then, each time i have gained a piece of paper that says i have completed something i remember what this man said to me.

" J you have worked hard, practiced, and studied. I am giving you this piece of paper that says your done learning under me, its now time for you to go and really learn what you have been training in.

This piece of paper is Just your " License to learn”; until you apply, what you have learned and teach others you will not have learned other then the education side of your trade.

So now each time i rank its part of the deal, it is just my license to learn. As far as belting and ranking adults, in FMA. I dont do it unless their intending to teach and need the legality of the paper for societal acceptance to do so... its the only reason i even bothered to design a ranking-belting-teaching certification format for my classes....

I dont charge for testing and i dont charge for the rank papers. But if your going to come to me and want to belt and rank at any level even starting at level one, as an adult its only going to happen if your intending to teach.

so part of the requirements for any of my students that want to belt and rank, is a set number of hours for each level trained in that they have to teach as one of there requirements before they can be tested and then promoted to a new level.

Different system for children. Their rankings are based on other things...... as far as teaching a martial art, i teach FMA and i dont normally teach children FMA under the age of 12.

when i do allow children from the age of 12 or so into the class, there are acceptations, most of the time i require them to come into the class with a partner, normally one of there parents or older siblings.

FMA is weapons based art, and i learned great care for weapons at a young age, but i also so saw much abuse of them with younger children that did not have the proper guidance at home... where parrents would send there kids to a class and have no clue as to what they were learning.

I do not teach children’s classes. if I have them in my class, it is with everyone at that level regardless of their age. I do not break them up into age groups, because I personally feel that its better for all my students to be able to work with all ages and levels.

Note: these are my preferences when I teach my classes; each has their own path to be sure………

Even my own children, i have two boys one 22 and 15. The 15 year old was sent to take traditional kung fu first for a year or so before i would even start teaching him FMA because he wanted to play with the weapons to much.

My 22 year old was a total pacifist and did not come to me to learn until he was 19 and wanted to travel and hitchhike across the united states. In addition, most of what I taught my older son was realty based things from JKD-FMA and then out and out Self-defense and awareness stuff that would be suited for his life style planed.


Ms. J bows deeply
:asian:

Ms J who's the photo? and would you tell us some more about yourself and your experience. I have enjoyed your post's and would consider it of much value to know more about you and your training.

hahah thats my most recent photo, i know tis sort of scary, but its better then the one of me stabbing my busness partner:

there is a bio on line that goes over some of the experance... and then theres this web site that has much on it about our organzation..

www.f-a-t-e.org

thats the main org site.

here is my professonal bio page on the site,
http://www.f-a-t-e.org/Bios/management/Ms.%20J%20Bio.html

Please note: it was put there for the marketing of the org and programs for the communty.

there are a number of bios on this site
http://www.f-a-t-e.org/Bios/Fate%20Bios%20site%20map.html

as well as a masters bio page for our teachers and heros.
http://www.f-a-t-e.org/Bios/masters%20Bios/Masters.html

but....... i belive all this information is listed on my profile here with martialtalk......:)

Ms. J.....

Empowerment, spiritual growth, healing...

Man, doesn't anyone just enjoy laying a beating on somebody anymore?
:hammer:

Well GouRonin some of us do but what my girl and I do in the bedroom is none of your buisness.......(grin).....





Despair Bear

GuroRonin wrote: Man, doesn't anyone just enjoy laying a beating on somebody anymore?


No no no not me......... i am way too old fat and slow for being beaten up on....... hehehe

I keep the wild stuffs in check for realty on the streets, or in sparing, with full gear on within my personal limatations, again tis my personal path and correct for me based on my limitations now.

As far as in the training hall, again i am way too old fat and slow to worry about ego and body bashing, i have had enough broken bones and burses training and facing life in my past to have enough wisdom to learn, that when your old fat and slow you dont need to get whooped on or whoop up on someone just for fun without proper gear on at least.

if it’s any consolation though for you.....:)

you will see me on occasion watching everyone else get whooped up on for fun and wishing i was not old, fat, slow, handicapped and could be out there whooping up for fun.......
that or watching my students have fun beating each other up on occason..... though thats fun its also part of the job......:)

Aggression and the study of it brings each of our responses into prospective, Tuhon Bill did an interesting article on human aggression with in the past year, i dont know he has it on his site still. If not let me know and i will forward the copy i have of it here if anyone is interested. again just another prespective to look at and a differant path...

Ms. J.... the wana be ass whooper....... :samurai:

Hahaha

PS. Please note healing-spirituality and Empowerment did not come up until asked…:) but since you did......

when your old fat and slow,

1) healing has to come first because your always in pain,

2) spirituality :angel: comes because you cuss and groan a lot when your getting out of bed in the morning and have to much praying to make up for it.

3) Empowerment comes because you managed to do it… i.e. get out of the bed…..:)

:asian:

I agree Gou, like the dog brothers, "Higher conciousness through harder contact". Age, man, I can feel the bumps, breaks and bruises, surgeries, strains,sprains and pains of the years. I think this iss the part where the great insights and awarenesses are suppose to come

Thanx guys and girls. You all made my morning!
:hammer:

By the way did you hear that Jaybacca? Mz J said that I should have proper gear on before you start beating on me! Ya %$#@er!

Oh Icepick...I feel your pain...
:rofl:

Hey, i did not say that.... I said i need to have proper gear on before i let anyone beat up on me because i am old fat and slow...... heheheh.......

I am more then willing to watch you get whooped on without gear on if you like, and i am even willing to come and take pictures for you lol.....

As Far as harder contact and the dog brothers, there is much i could say on this but it would be from a number of perspectives. not just one.

Again, there is validity in many training methods based on the requirements and needs of each student individually, do i believe you have to go and be whooped on with only shorts in the park?

I believe that for some yes it is a part of their path.......

In addition, I understand the core concepts of where and why...... regardless of me covering the other issues....... remember my frist instructor nearly 20 years back in FMA was Filipino and use to hang out in the park with his friends growing up. And why he would chaise me on the beach with his stick saying I am not aggressive enough. Hahaha

Ms. J bows deeply....

"When i am an old women, I do not want them to say,
"She is such a charming old women"
I would rather them say,
" Be carfull that old women is armed and Dangerous!!!!!!!"

You're not helping me out any here.

God I hope Jaybacca isn't reading this.

What am I saying?

He can barely read. I should be ok.

I hope...

:shrug:

552 and 582 posts from Gou and Cthu....you guys are in great computer condition......When do you train?:D

Ouch!

I think the proper responce to that is



"I Acsept"



Despair Bear

Ms. J gets this evil grin in on her face and glint in her eye..... :angel:

552 and 582

is that the number of posts they made or is that the number of words they posted?



" The old Wickad Woman Ms. J....."

Actually, I use dynamic tension with each stroke of the finger on the keyboard. Also, I clench my butt muscles 1000 times/hour while in the chair, so I can now squeeze coal to diamond. Ugh. Unpleasant images :D My wife just read that and is laughing her a$$ off.

I usually train twice a week in a class and solo as often as my daughter permits. Every time I do kata, she wants to get up and 'dance' with me. It's cute, but makes it very difficult to train kata when she's awake :) Also, I train my brother whenever he manages to come visit.

I'd like to get more physical training in as well. I once made a makiwara post, and that was a great workout and tension reliever. Then I went and broke the damn thing. I'm hoping to get some type of striking bag eventually...WaveMaster, B.O.B., heavy bag, something. Maybe I'll make another makiwara post. Dunno.

Cthulhu

With the exception of the last 3 weeks due to a personal problem I train every night thank you. In about 5 days I will be able to resume my schedule. I spend my time either working out in my own garage, or at other schools.

Some of us ARE just that good.
:D

I just happen to be an opinionated S.O.B. whose read far too many books about the martial arts and has found a venue to inflict the results of that reading upon an unsuspecting world. That's one long sentence :)

Cthulhu

I would ignore the comment about the number of posts you guys have made. he is just jealous because he ahsn't had anything worth while to say.

Thats why the servers had thos hiccups....its been trying to do a word count here.... :)

Rob who? No I am just trying to fake it ? :rolleyes: . Diamonds out of coal. yeah baby, good trick. Gou...hope you know it was a joke. I am sure you train every night. I have heard, or read I should say. Me I am also nursing a back surgery and training has been frustrating. Still teaching every night but training.....well. Let's just say I have been doing a lot of sensitivity drills

Slow down there kids. IFAJKD was only thowing out some jabs. I don't think he was serious. Let's not turn on ourselves here.

I too for a bit here have had a string of bad luck but you deal with it and move on. Train when you can and where. Luckily I have my garage set up as a training place.
:D

I was only joking with the nothing better to say comment. I hope no offence was taken by it.

No offence taken. I've always hated each and every one of you all equally.
:rofl:

Ya Gou I know that you hate us all equally, that is why we all love you. You treat everybody equally.... like the dirt between your toes.

I take no offense Rob. Injuries...bad luck yeah. I was doing a very slow take down on Erin, (Vu,s wife) and as I set her down she rolled towards me and pop, dislocated my finger. It was like this kind of thing aways happens at the worse time. Oh well poped it back taped it up and finnished the weekend...Still trying to hold a fist...what does anyone know about dit da jow, not sure on the spelling. I used it once on an elbow wrench, actually a snap and it healed well in terms of brusing but this was old world stuff complete with beatles and ?????. Where can you get legit stuff and has anyone used the comercial stuff out there?

I think I've responded to a dit dat jow question a loooong time ago :)

I tend to stay away from the stuff, myself. Recipes seem to vary from person to person, as well as preparation methods. I've heard of one version that called for the maker to bury the mixture somewhere to let it ferment or something. Someone else pointed out a blood toxin in the ingredients of another ddj recipe.

As much as I like studying Asian culture (and being part Asian myself), I think I'll stick to Western medicine for my injuries :) They've done right by me so far.

Cthulhu

yeah, but I have found good results with herbs and teas, I just started to explore this area. Enjoy it alot. ddj has worked for me but as you say the recepies do vary. Why reinvent the wheel if anyone knows of one that is ligit I would like to know.

its the mc dojo infection taking over that is poping out all these 10 year old 3rd dan black belts i personally feel that they should not be allowed to test till they are 18 and should have some sort of junior program for them... as far as young martial artists with high ranks im 23 and a 3rd dan and i can assure you that i worked my ass of for my rank.. and i work my students just as hard... my black belt test was 12 straight hours of pure hell... hour long full contact sparring sessions countless pushups and situps and throwing punchs and kicks till i could not keep count along with performing every kata and demonstrating countless self-defense techniques... by the end of the day when my sifu handed me that belt and said congratulations welcome to the true begining i knew i had earned it... and that is exactly the way i test students now... not as hard core for under black belt...

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

If there was to be anything added to make it harder I would have to say a personal form. Utilizing a full breakdown of every technique and transition. Along with a breakdown of the hows and whys. [/B]

This is exactly what my instructor requires starting at blue belt. It has forced me to really research the principles behind american kenpo, in addition to learning how one move flows correctly to the next.

Originally posted by GouRonin

Should black belt and subsequent degrees of it be harder to obtain?

I see all these multiple ranked people and many of them are so young. I saw a TKD 8 year old kid who was a 3rd degree on TV.

Myself, I think black belt should not be given out until 18. Before that they should have a junior program or something. I know that kids are school's bread and butter but maybe they can have the same belts but with a stripe or something.

But on top of that it seems that everyone has a black belt these days and many people can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Is it too easy now? Jeff was telling us what it was like in the old days.

I consider black the point when people become serious students but how can an 8 year old kid have 3rd degree? He's 8 fer cryin' out loud!

I think if you get your rank easy you will give it out easy. Far too many grandmasters for my liking.

:soapbox:

I agree with you, but I think 16 is ok to promote to black belt. Under that should be some sort of junior program and when they reach 16 or 18 they should have to complete an adult black belt test.
So I wonder what he was a 3rd degree in? Mickey D's martal arts?

:shrug:

Chuck

What system or style are we doing this ranking in? Is the rank in a sport TKD system or a street system, or a system founded by former Navy Seals who only know how to kill and cripple.
Yes I know not all TKD people are into sport. I remember meeting the ROKs.
If we are talking the sport im sorry but I could care less because they are only going to get killed in the street anyway. Hell, what they do should not be allowed to be called a martial art. Now if we are talking the system that truly teaches how to maim and kill Kids should not be allowed in .
I don't like teaching kids but I will. But I let them know that they will not reach black till their 18 (16 if exceptional in mind and ability) and there are many things I will not show them till they are old enough to understand what death and the takeing of life is all about.
Yes I know some kids in other places kill and are at war all their lives but not where I live. If it comes to that I willchange my teaching ways and teach how to kill to all I teach.
Shadow

Let the 8yr old 3rd Dan got 30 minutes with Gou. Certainly a 3rd Dan can handle 1 Kenpoist.

:)

What is the price to become a black belt? $3.00 wholesale + S/H.

What is the price of a Dan? $1 for the certificate.

What is the price of experience? It is priceless.

:asian:

Originally posted by TLH3rdDan
as far as young martial artists with high ranks im 23 and a 3rd dan and i can assure you that i worked my ass of for my rank.. and i work my students just as hard... my black belt test was 12 straight hours of pure hell... hour long full contact sparring sessions countless pushups and situps and throwing punchs and kicks till i could not keep count along with performing every kata and demonstrating countless self-defense techniques... by the end of the day when my sifu handed me that belt and said congratulations welcome to the true begining i knew i had earned it... and that is exactly the way i test students now... not as hard core for under black belt...

Why? Did that 12 hours of hell make you a black belt suddenly? Hmm...I would be just as happy if one day after putting in a lot of time and working hard at what I'm doing if my teacher tossed me a black belt and told me to start wearing it.

Why do people still need to have these marathon tests of sparring, punches, kicks, sets, kata, and blah blah blah? When I box we'd work out. That was it. As if one day of doing something can compare to years of use of it. Over that time you have done thousands of kicks and punches, you've done the kata a zillion times, tons of sparring, countless sit ups.

If I was asked to do all of that I'd ask "Why?" and they'd better have a good reason for it.

Vlad explained there is a difference between "activity" and "action" and I agree for the most part. An action occurs when it is needed. It is spontanious. An activity is a response to itself and is unecessary. So any busy work like doing things that don't need to be done for 12 hours straight seems to be an activity.

Just my 2 cents...

Originally posted by GouRonin

Why do people still need to have these marathon tests of sparring, punches, kicks, sets, kata, and blah blah blah?

If I was asked to do all of that I'd ask "Why?" and they'd better have a good reason for it.


Quite often you will find that it is not what you do on the day that counts, but how you carry yourself in between times.

For example, our gradings are roughly 5 hours long, we start the day with a run, as a group. We then go through 5 different work stations each timed to fit into the available time. The trial black belts go for longer in each area, thereby giving the lower ranks time to rest and have a drink.

In between times we are watched more closely than during our activities. If we look beaten or run down we will lose points, but if we carry ourselves like we can still do it all again then we gain brownie points toward our grading.

It doesn't matter if you can't get through the hard stuff as long as you give every ounce of yourself on the day. It's hard, but sooooo gratifying at the end. Kinda like hitting your foot with a hammer to make yourself feel better, because it feels so good when you stop.

Hope this sheds some light.
--Dave

Originally posted by D.Cobb


Quite often you will find that it is not what you do on the day that counts, but how you carry yourself in between times.

I find myself agreeing both with this point and with GouRonin's, though overall I agree that when the student is ready, the test is unnecessary. There is some satisfaction, some closure, and some marking of a transition that comes with "passing a test" but I too would be just as happy to be tossed a belt when it's ready. The belt represents years of hard work, not just one day's effort.

I don't like having to grade other peoples' students--as I have done a great many times in Modern Arnis (recommending belt levels to the Professor at camps)--because I can only judge the technical level I see demonstrated, not character, commitment to the art, and so on. Overall, I'm not that enthusiastic about the belt test concept.

How widely used are belt tests in Japan and Korea? I think it's fairly common in TKD, kendo, judo, and so on.

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Quite often you will find that it is not what you do on the day that counts, but how you carry yourself in between times.

That's my point.

Originally posted by D.Cobb
It doesn't matter if you can't get through the hard stuff as long as you give every ounce of yourself on the day. It's hard, but sooooo gratifying at the end. Kinda like hitting your foot with a hammer to make yourself feel better, because it feels so good when you stop.

Why do you do this?

Originally posted by paulk

I quite agree

I trained for 14 years to achieve shodan, not because I dont understand or am slow but because I wanted to fully understand what I was doing before I considerd myself worth the rank.

Every one please take the time to promote quality in the martial arts.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/kempo-jujitsu/ Hey paul that is pretty cool! So you, like myself wanted to understand exactly what you were doing. I'am in the same boat. It took me 22 yrs. to get the same rank. My sifu was pretty proud to see that i was one of his only students to go all the way! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce! please feel free to go to my website at http://www.chiduce.swsites.net and http://maxpages.com/butokutsururyu

Like my instructor, I don't expect people to call me 'sensei' or 'sir'. If they can pronounce it (:D), they can call me by my first name. I like it casual, but still respectful...not just to me, but amongst the students as well.

Grrr. Babbling yet again.

Cthulhu [/B][/QUOTE]

Cthulhu you gain more respect from your students if you dont enforce the sensei thing. In fact ill ask - do you think you are respected more? Its how much you give to your students, thats how respect is gained, not through yelling, ranting, raving and enforcing ridiculous conditions within any training facility, due to minor acts of "disrespectfulness".
I respect my kru (trainer) no end due to his passion for what he does, the way he treats me and trains me and tries to help me in everyway he can to become better at what i train in - muay thai.
hes a legendary bloke and highly respected amongst his peers here where i live.
good for you anyhow i like your style

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

What system or style are we doing this ranking in? Is the rank in a sport TKD system or a street system, or a system founded by former Navy Seals who only know how to kill and cripple.
Yes I know not all TKD people are into sport. I remember meeting the ROKs.
If we are talking the sport im sorry but I could care less because they are only going to get killed in the street anyway. Hell, what they do should not be allowed to be called a martial art. Now if we are talking the system that truly teaches how to maim and kill Kids should not be allowed in .
I don't like teaching kids but I will. But I let them know that they will not reach black till their 18 (16 if exceptional in mind and ability) and there are many things I will not show them till they are old enough to understand what death and the takeing of life is all about.
Yes I know some kids in other places kill and are at war all their lives but not where I live. If it comes to that I willchange my teaching ways and teach how to kill to all I teach.
Shadow

1. the navy seals use muay thai not TKD
2. sport TKD people might, boxers dont, i wouldnt take on mike tyson, lennox lewis, hell roy jones jnr would have me (most for that matter) for breakfast am im 10 kg (22 lbs) heavier, i respect boxers moreso than any other fighters on this planet.
3. i agree with all you guys on the young black belt thing i think it underrated and some governing bodies of the ancient systems will have to step in and stop all the crap that is being taught around the world at the moment, and the commercialism that corrupts all the arts. they are truly being wrecked and arts tarnished such as TKD for a prime example. most of them are just plain crap, cant fight for nuts.
4. as far as taking lives are concerned, even in thailand very few people actually die in full on ring fights, compared to how many take place, NHB basically, and the TKD guys i spar (ITF & WTF) could certainly not kill anyone from what ive seen. although however slightly possible it may be. im a no bull crap kind of guy and really talking about killing people with some martial arts moves is just down right hilarious (what some people claim to be able to do). And a little kid isnt going to muster enough coordination and power to do this anyway, so who really cares. never mind a lucky shot when your an adult. but they should be restricted to a lower belt and wait or some subsidiary belt i agree.

just my 10 cents worth

Originally Posted By: thaiboxer
they are truly being wrecked and arts tarnished such as TKD for a prime example. most of them are just plain crap, cant fight for nuts


I don't know about being wrecked. TKD is the most popular
style in the U.S right now. Their numbers are far greater than
any other style. I'm baffled as to why it continues this way.

I have a friend studying TKD right now. He refuses to admit that
it's one of the least effective styles for street self defense. He's
been at it less than a year, and he's done a bunch of "double
promotions". He's like 2 or three belts away from black. At the
rate he's going, he'll be ranked a blackbelt in just under 2 years
of training. He won't dare go to another style, because his ego
won't let him start as a white belt. When he's done studying TKD,
he's going to study another Korean style, because they'll more
than likely let him wear his black belt in the do jang. I just hope
his ego will allow him to walk away from a fight, instead of him
attempting to defend himself. His favorite "joke threat" that
he uses on me is "I'll kick you in the head". :shrug: He feels
that's the end all, be all of defense. He doesn't buy that his
balance would be thrown WAY off in order to perform that kick,
and that it's an extreme level of skill necessary to perform that
kick without telegraphing the hell out of it.

When belts are awarded so quickly, I think there's a LOT of
people who like the guarantees of "you'll have a b.b. in 2 years"
I think ego has a lot to do with it. Unless their membership
starts to dwindle, I think it'll be wrecked, but I don't think it'll
suffer after the "wreck" is complete.

hi kirk
yeah geez i hope your mate doesnt ever run into anyone who can even averagely defend themselves, and dislike being taunted, its big mouths like that that cop a pasting ultimately. just big noting. i spar against quite a number of TKD exponents, there are two in our class that have recently come across to MT. they are hopeless to say the very least, and in the first couple of times they have sparred still using their TKD technique, as they are accustomed to that obviously. they cop a pasting. A high roundhouse is easily defended by using the forearm as to block a western boxing hook punch or deliberately hit their foot with your elbow to try inflict some damage on them (although this is a little more difficult).
he'll learn the hard way, an easily obtained BB will certainly not help him defend himself any better, he may be of the illusion that he can but hey, real life is what matters, and big noting oneself and ones ability in any aspect in life is usually a sign that there is a weakness there.

Originally posted by thaiboxer
1. the navy seals use muay thai not TKD

Actually, they use whatever they get their hands on. They are trained to use weapons and explosives and most of the training they get is minimal and they tend to seek out whatever they can on their own time.

This is no ONE art they study as an official group.

Originally posted by GouRonin



Actually, they use whatever they get their hands on. They are trained to use weapons and explosives and most of the training they get is minimal and they tend to seek out whatever they can on their own time.

This is no ONE art they study as an official group.

who cares i wouldnt like to come across one of them anyhow in battle. they really would kill you.

Originally posted by thaiboxer
who cares i wouldnt like to come across one of them anyhow in battle. they really would kill you.

Yeah, guns tend to do that.
:iws: :rolleyes:

Actually, seals are very good hand to hand combat fighters! I've had the honor of meeting a few as well as one of the original UTD guys. This is why the Eagle Globe And Anchor on the Marine Hat and Seal Hat differ only with the Eagle holding it's head down in humility for the Seals. The Navy Seal is also a Marine of the highest honor and humility! They are trained very well. Though as always, it all depends on which type and ones that you would meet up with. Member's of Seal Team 5 are noticably different from members of Seal Team 6. I also have friends that are Delta and Recon. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

in response to gou its not the 12 hours that suddenly made me a black belt the 5 years leading up to that point did that... the 12 hours was more of a lets see what your really made of... it was a test of wills it was a are you going to break under pressure... it was a lets see what you have really learned in your training... it was not just an activity.... it was a chance to drive me beyond where i had been and beyond the hows and whys of technique it was to push me to the limit in that 12 hours... and it really never ended... i dont know what more to tell you... here is something that you might be able to compare it to as far as the idea behind it... think of it as a sort of crucible for martial arts... or a hell week for martial artists... all rolled into one 12 hour period... and before you draw your own conclusions... no i am not saying it was just as hard as those two events... i am saying it served the same principal... more or less initiation, a welcoming, a pressure test, a last chance to weed out the week, to see who is for real and who is there for a work out and and a piece of paper. hope that answers some of your questions

As a friend of mine once said, "It's your soap, your dick, you wash it."

I understand what you are saying, it's just seems really stupid and a waste of time to me. I will always see that as activity, not action.

lmao interesting quote there gou lol and glad that i kinda made sense in that too lol

Originally posted by TLH3rdDan

in response to gou its not the 12 hours that suddenly made me a black belt the 5 years leading up to that point did that... the 12 hours was more of a lets see what your really made of... it was a test of wills it was a are you going to break under pressure... it was a lets see what you have really learned in your training... it was not just an activity.... it was a chance to drive me beyond where i had been and beyond the hows and whys of technique it was to push me to the limit in that 12 hours... and it really never ended... i dont know what more to tell you... here is something that you might be able to compare it to as far as the idea behind it... think of it as a sort of crucible for martial arts... or a hell week for martial artists... all rolled into one 12 hour period... and before you draw your own conclusions... no i am not saying it was just as hard as those two events... i am saying it served the same principal... more or less initiation, a welcoming, a pressure test, a last chance to weed out the week, to see who is for real and who is there for a work out and and a piece of paper. hope that answers some of your questions

i want to know how you actually had time to do this 12 hour marathon of sorts? i have a full time job and train as hard as i can befoer and after work most days (injury pending due to hard sparring), and i certainly wouldnt have the time to do a 12 hour grading.
we have grading sessions after a certain amount of lessons racked up, we do rigorous combination work for 1.25 - 1.5 hours then a certain amount of 3 minute sparring rounds, pending on which singlet colour we are grading for. but really everyone regardless of singlet colour grading all know the same moves, even from early on, and by no means is it an indication of talent or ability, but only on time really. but alternatively if our kru doesnt believe we have done enough to attain or shown fighting spirit, then the grade (especially black singlet - and especially during full contact sparring) will not be obtained by the individual.
i think it should be earnt the hard way, should be a special achievement for sure, one that you should be proud of and cheerish, not paid for. but that is evident when you spar or fight these "fake" black belts. so really they are traitors to themselves, and who cares, they can claim everything under the sun, as long as you know deep down you can defend yourself, what else matters, thats what were doing it for really right?

well i was in college at the time and it was on a sunday 7am to 7pm so it was pretty easy to find the time for that...

Originally posted by TLH3rdDan

well i was in college at the time and it was on a sunday 7am to 7pm so it was pretty easy to find the time for that...

fair enough, good stuff.

Originally posted by GouRonin

Why do you do this?

Sometimes I want to know just how hard I can go. It's not about whether or not I can do the stuff, if I couldn't, I wouldn't be there on the day. It's about the distance I am prepared to go for the prize, or to win. It's about the strength of my character, am I prepared to do everything I can, give 1000%, and then when it looks like I can do no more, can I do it just 1 more time?

I am the only one that I do this for, it's about being mentally tough. I know I can fight. I know I am good at it. I know that I possess that unbeatable spirit that martial artists often talk about. I want to know just how far that will take me on a physical level. More than all this, I want to show me that I am getting better everytime I do it.

For me, the martial arts are more than kick punch stuff, they're about every day being better than the day before. About getting from every day, not just getting through every day.

Above all, I do it for the sense of achievement.

--Dave

:asian:

im pretty much the same dave. Ive actually lost quite a great deal of weight 10 kilograms since starting and maintained it, whilst eating what i basically want really.
Ive pushed myself harder and harder to get fitter and stronger and have more endurance, still am, im not by far anywhere near fit enough to enter a ringwar yet as an example. (unfortunately time is a problem, i am full time work)
But the personal satisfaction of knowing you have achieved what you have through hard work, and can mix it with the best in your class, compared to when you first started, well there is no comparison.
No substitute for hard work in technique/fitness, getting into a real fight will determine this, regardless of belt rank or years spent learning.

Originally posted by thaiboxer

No substitute for hard work in technique/fitness, getting into a real fight will determine this, regardless of belt rank or years spent learning.

Amen to that Brudda!! :D