A disturbing conversation...

[bcbernam777]

I had a conversation with an MA supplier 2 days ago, when I quizzed him on Marketing strategy involved in setting up an MA school. Without going in to great detail, the essence of what he was saying is that to make a success of any MA school, you essentially have to become a Mcdojo/belt factory and that by and large people want to live in a fantasy and dont want to put the hard yards in to actually obtain true fighting skill. When I suggested that I did not want to water down the art to make it marketable, he basically said to me, "then you are going to have look at it as a hobby, teach a few people because that is as far as it is going to get".

Does everyone out there think that is true???????????????

[MJS]

I'd have to say that I disagree with the person you spoke to. I personally know of 5 schools in CT. that are far from belt factories. Whats sad, is that there are people out there like this guy, who feed those words to school owners, making them feel that that is the only way to survive. Its a shame that nobody wants to work hard and actually earn something.

Mike

[The Kai]

Just as there are students that don't want to put in the sweat to earn thier chops, there are school owners that take the easy road also

[OnlyAnEgg]

Personally, I don't believe that's universally true; however, it has some truth to it.

The general public is composed of consumers. In order to enter into the market (with the goal of profit) you have to be able to provide the consumer with a product he wants; in this case, the McDojo. Giving the consumer what he wants as quickly as you can in order to obtain profit is the essence of the mass-consumption market.

On the other hand, serving the niche market, that small part of the market that wants a unique product with considerably less-than-mass appeal, such as a legitimate martial art is a longer, slower road to profit. I mean, the goal in business is to make a profit, right? The questions are: how fast do you want that profit and what will you do to obtain the profit?

It seems to me, the supplier you spoke to described the short, fast road to money. Suppliers are like that; they want a profit, too.

respectfully,

egg

[Gemini]

Though I wouldn't say it's always true, I would say that it is true more often than not. The school that stays true to its teachings has a generally harder time being successful, though in cases it is possible. Remember, as unfortunate as it may sound, the success of a school is based on offering what people are willing to pay for. People buy what they want. If a school opens up that is teaching an art that the people in that neighborhood want, it can be successful.

A successful selling strategy is offering what people are willing to pay for, not what you want them to have. In other words, people are not going to pay for something just because it's what YOU want.

"But I teach a REAL art. Not some watered down belt factory".

Unfortunately, most people don't even know the difference until it's too late.

There are of course other factors involved, but this has quite a bit to do with it.

Before you become disheartened, remember many of us here, including myself, belong to successful schools that are not McDojo's. But the threat that they bring is never far off either.

Best of luck to you!

[bcbernam777]

I understand that it is human nature to take the easy road, but I really dont want to take that road, to do that would be to rob them and decieve them by thinking they can fight when they cant, I guess I am going to have to keep my day job and pray for for some measure of success. Any suggestions for how I could reach people who would keep it real??

[MJS]

I understand that it is human nature to take the easy road, but I really dont want to take that road, to do that would be to rob them and decieve them by thinking they can fight when they cant, I guess I am going to have to keep my day job and pray for for some measure of success. Any suggestions for how I could reach people who would keep it real??

Making sure that people understand what the art is about, what you are about, and what your school is about would be good ways to start. Many people have a very distorted view on what the arts are about. Its not hard to figure out what people want. Spending a few minutes talking to them and its amazing as to what you'll learn.

Mike

[OnlyAnEgg]

Any suggestions for how I could reach people who would keep it real??
This may sound harsh; but, take 'em all. Tell them the hard truth about your training up front. Separate the wheat from the chaff through your training. The dedicated will stay. The slackers will fade. It takes time; but, you could develop a decent core class that way.

[Gemini]

I understand that it is human nature to take the easy road, but I really dont want to take that road, to do that would be to rob them and decieve them by thinking they can fight when they cant, I guess I am going to have to keep my day job and pray for for some measure of success. Any suggestions for how I could reach people who would keep it real??That's a very realistic approach. As long as you don't over extend your ability to provide the art (i.e. massive overhead hoping to get enough students to pay for it) and keep your ability to teach in line with your means to provide it, you should be fine. So yes, maybe to start at least, you'll need to keep another source of income.

[beauty_in_the_sai]

I think it should be watered down atad for beginners, but once you're pass beginner status, it's full steam ahead. When people first come in a dojo, you'd pry scare them away with too much hard work at once. But once they try it for awhile and love it, then they are more willing to do more work and be more motivated. Watering it down for upper belts though, is a no-no in my book.

[MJS]

I think it should be watered down atad for beginners, but once you're pass beginner status, it's full steam ahead. When people first come in a dojo, you'd pry scare them away with too much hard work at once. But once they try it for awhile and love it, then they are more willing to do more work and be more motivated. Watering it down for upper belts though, is a no-no in my book.

Sorry, I have to disagree here. Why water it down at all?? If people get that 'watered down taste' don't you think that they'll wonder why the sudden change later on??

If people are serious about their training, they won't want anything watered down.

Mike

[Brian R. VanCise]

Mark,

I teach the arts the way they were taught to me, not watered
down! I will also not compromise in the value and moral department!
My Training Hall and students are successful because of this!
I would advise you to stick to the way you want to teach and you
will not be disapointed! Good luck!

Brian R. VanCise

[Gemini]

Sorry, I have to disagree here. Why water it down at all?? If people get that 'watered down taste' don't you think that they'll wonder why the sudden change later on??

If people are serious about their training, they won't want anything watered down.

MikeI couldn't agree more. I thought this way at one time and what a mistake that turned out to be. Once you start them this way, they end up quitting before turning. Just my own exprience has taught me this. Great in concept. Disasterous in reality.

[Makalakumu]

I run a small dojang in Superior, WI. Training at my school is traditional in the sense that it reflects what I was taught. My goal in starting this school was not to make money or to earn prestige. I wanted to create a quality environment where quality martial arts was the norm and not the exception. For me, the following formula helped accomplish this...

1. No Advertising - I don't want just anyone walking through my door. I would rather my students talk about our school with people so they can explain what it like in real-time conversation.
2. Closed Doors - All sessions are closed door, meaning that I don't want people to walk in off the street and jump right in. One reason I do this is because my school is in a bad neighborhood and I don't want to deal with any of the vagrants that inhabit the area. The other is that it forces the prospective student to talk to me...and then I can lay out my expectations in advance.
3. Real Tests - all gradings are free and students can expect them to be grueling challenges. People who earn rank from me will EARN that rank. Tests in my dojang run at least two hours for the lower ranks. Four for upper. The tests are an example of my high expectations.
4. Time requirments - It will take five years minimum to earn chodan in my dojang. No exceptions. The time requirement is important to me because it forces a student to get some experience in the art under their belt.
5. Probationary status - I have one class hour specifically dedicated for new students. Students in this class are expected to learn the basics and to learn the difference between karate and jumping/flipping. Students are not expected to put money down for the until the end of the month and they are not expected to buy a uniform. I want my students to self select for internal motivation.
6. No contracts - I do not believe that someone should be forced to practice MA if they do not wish too.
7. Controlled pain. A visit to my class will probably earn a student some bruises and you will be tapping a lot. All sparring is contact based.

This works for me and I would never say that everyone should do what I do. There is never only one way. However, I believe that I am able to resist becoming a Mcdojo because of these policies.

upnorthkyosa

[beauty_in_the_sai]

Sorry, I have to disagree here. Why water it down at all?? If people get that 'watered down taste' don't you think that they'll wonder why the sudden change later on??

If people are serious about their training, they won't want anything watered down.

MikeIt's not a Sudden change.... It is gradual. Some guy off the street just jumping into full contact sparring or all out brutality isn't a wonderful idea. At first, not alot of people ARE serious about their training. I'm not saying water it down to skim milk, but don't give them the whole milk until they are ready for it. I'm not saying water it completely down, but personally I wouldn't want to be someone off the street being thrown into sparring with a black belt my first night. You are already scared enough when you are a newbie in MA and you go into a dojo. A gradual taking out of the easyness was what my instuctor did. So, about 6 months into martial arts, I was fighting black belts while I was a yellow belt. I wasn't comfortable, ofc, but by taking me out of my comfort zone after I loved the art too much to leave it, he took me out of the "slightly watered down" and threw me into the chocolate whole milk:)

(btw, upnorth, I like your idea of an extra class for beginners. Gets them to feel more comfortable. My instructors school sounds like yours with the exception of the beginners class)

[Epson]

Sounds like Urban Public schools. Most students just want to pass (belt factory)
the one's that do want the knowledge, they will get it even if they have break a moutain.
So just give the students easy belts, it's business.
However establish a few after practice classes. Those are not for the belt, those for hard training. The "belt costumers" will never go or last through those. And you are covered both ways.

[OnlyAnEgg]

I think there's a significant difference between easing a new student in and 'watering down' the art. On the other hand, when I began TKD, I was on the floor half a dozen times the first day. It is fighting, after all.

[MJS]

It's not a Sudden change.... It is gradual. Some guy off the street just jumping into full contact sparring or all out brutality isn't a wonderful idea. At first, not alot of people ARE serious about their training. I'm not saying water it down to skim milk, but don't give them the whole milk until they are ready for it. I'm not saying water it completely down, but personally I wouldn't want to be someone off the street being thrown into sparring with a black belt my first night. You are already scared enough when you are a newbie in MA and you go into a dojo. A gradual taking out of the easyness was what my instuctor did. So, about 6 months into martial arts, I was fighting black belts while I was a yellow belt. I wasn't comfortable, ofc, but by taking me out of my comfort zone after I loved the art too much to leave it, he took me out of the "slightly watered down" and threw me into the chocolate whole milk:)

(btw, upnorth, I like your idea of an extra class for beginners. Gets them to feel more comfortable. My instructors school sounds like yours with the exception of the beginners class)

I agree with Onlyanegg. There is a big difference between gradual and watering down. The example you gave, throwing the student into full contact sparring is of course something on a gradual progression. Having the Mcdojo mentality is watering down. I find this interesting:


At first, not alot of people ARE serious about their training.

A dojo is a place to learn, not fool around. Many parents enroll 5 yos. Is a 5yo serious? Most likely not, however, correcting improper behavior ASAP will start to make them serious. Would you say the same about someone who has a desire to be a pro football, baseball or basketball player? What about someone who wants to enlist in the military? People who do not take that training serious have it known to them from day one!

Mike

[hardheadjarhead]

I had a conversation with an MA supplier 2 days ago, when I quizzed him on Marketing strategy involved in setting up an MA school. Without going in to great detail, the essence of what he was saying is that to make a success of any MA school, you essentially have to become a Mcdojo/belt factory and that by and large people want to live in a fantasy and dont want to put the hard yards in to actually obtain true fighting skill. When I suggested that I did not want to water down the art to make it marketable, he basically said to me, "then you are going to have look at it as a hobby, teach a few people because that is as far as it is going to get".

Does everyone out there think that is true???????????????


No.

What, exactly, is a McDojo? People have a difficult time coming to a consensus on this. I saw one criteria being the school's location in a strip mall...which is a great location but doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on the school.

The definitions of "McDojo" vary...and some of the people casting the allegations around are people who have failed to make a commercial venture successful (or who fear they'll fail).

The term "McDojo" suggests a franchise like McDonalds. The word makes one think of ingesting an unhealthy product. The analogy fails, however, as many martial arts franchises are extraordinarily expensive. A Big Mac is not going to strain a person's budget. That said, some perfectly good martial arts schools are expensive--training at the Inosanto Academy is not cheap. We might liken these schools to four star restaurants if we extend the analogy that far (and I don't think Inosanto would be adverse to strip mall locations).

Currently one of my franchised competitiors charges $100 a month for two one-half hour lessons a week. Younger children have classes of twenty minutes for the same price. Up to green belt no forms are taught without first paying an extra fee.

After green belt (actually a "camo" belt) the rates go to $200 a month, and they're allowed five classes a week...BUT have to sign a three year contract, purchase fighting equipment, purchase weapons, extra patches. I know of another school that requires a different uniform for different days of the week. Patches are required for all uniforms, and patches are awarded to the students at every turn and are very loosely based on merit. I don't think there is anything wrong with patches, note...unless it generates a ridiculous amount of revenue and significantly lightens the wallet of the parents.

Some schools take students through stripe belts. A number of variations of these are offered through wholesalers. While there is nothing wrong with stripe belts, charging a test fee for every one of them can rack up huge amounts of revenue. Students might test every eight weeks in some schools, going through stripes, tips, tape or what have you. Some students will go through thirty or so tests...and pay thirty test fees.

I use the stripe belts. I find they're useful in keeping students motivated to train. It takes four to seven years for a kid to get to black belt in my school...without those stripes they get frustrated and quit. Note that I don't charge for stripes...and they have to take a comprehensive test to earn them.

There is nothing wrong with students having a rich fantasy about the martial arts...particularly children. Adults need to be gently disabused of their illusions, but we can indulge the kids a bit. At some point we have to teach kids that one can't kick seven people while airborne, that lying on a bed of nails while blocks are shattered on your stomach isn't really a big deal, and that there are tricks to certain board/brick breaks that make it look harder than it really is.

Taking undue profit from their illusions is unethical.


Regards,


Steve

[arnisador]

Without going in to great detail, the essence of what he was saying is that to make a success of any MA school, you essentially have to become a Mcdojo/belt factory and that by and large people want to live in a fantasy and dont want to put the hard yards in to actually obtain true fighting skill. When I suggested that I did not want to water down the art to make it marketable, he basically said to me, "then you are going to have look at it as a hobby, teach a few people because that is as far as it is going to get".
To make a full-time living at it you usually have to teach kids and give them frequent rewards (belts and stripes). You hav eto tell their parents that it's helping them in school, too.

In a big city you'll find enough people who want to be hard-core that you may be able to do it your way...but for every one school of 30 students, mostly adults, working up a good sweat and leaving sore and tired, you'll find at least ten schools with 250 students doing, for all practical purposes, Tae Bo (under whatever name).

So, to make a living at it--pay the rent, utilities, salaries, advertising costs, insurance, etc.--I'd say that while "fantasy" is a harsh way to describe it, it's true that people aren't looking for something to truly prepare them for combat but for light exercise and a fun hobby.

Is this so bad? We have people who do poorly in school do, but we don't close them down. There's always a bell curve. I'm not too worried by this. There are always people--like most of us--who take it very seriously. But for every Tiger Woods or Michelle Wie there are hundreds of weekend golfers who don't care enough to work hard at improving their game but prefer instead to wander around the course having fun. Lots of people play tennis without putting in a great effort to take their game to the next level. Is it so different?

[arnisador]

Any suggestions for how I could reach people who would keep it real??Word of mouth is your best bet. Encourage your serious students to speak with their friends about the school. Offer them (financial) incentives to do so. That's the best way to find like-minded people with reasonable expectations. Explain to prospective students what you do and why you do it, but also make it clear to them that they won't be thrown into a Muay Thai match their first night of class--that you have a plan for getting them up to that level, and it'll be hard, but not dangerous, work. Advertise via flyers at gyms, colleges, and other places where younger and more active people are apt to be. Hooking up with a good-sized gym can really help--especially if you can offer a combined package. If you can get some LEOs or military interested and they talk you up that can certainly help. The people you want to reach are those who want effective self-defense and who don't mind a hard workout. They're a different bunch from the average 12 year old who decides he wants karate lessons for Christmas.

Some people offer both hard-core and easy-going classes at the same school, but I feel that often doesn't work so well--it causes friction between the groups. Some schools offer special training for brown belts and higher, and that can help.

Lower your financial expectations if you go this route (which I think is the right way to go, by the way--one just must be realistic). How many of us have, at one time or another, posted that some of the best training around is being offered in someone's garage, not a commercial studio?

[bcbernam777]

I apreciate everyones feedback, and welcome the comments made. I will give you a snapshot of what I am doing at the moment.

1) offering grades:this is simply to carve up the curriculum in to bite sized and therefore digestable chunks, the grades are free, I am not going to charge someone for what they have legitimatly earnt, however the grading requirements are very strict, in essence, they need to prove that they can do the business, before they have the right to earn that belt.

2) Abstain from drills: It is my personal (tested) experiance that these can do more harm than good (I am refering to hit/block/hit/block type deals [if you know what I mean]) and focus more on the basics i.e. stance, technique, energy development, sensitivity (chi sao).

3) Incrementally lead to sparring: Not throwing them into the deep end as this will only serve to the student developing a tense energy instead of relaxed, and pliable energy, but aiming to get into full contact both empty hands and weapons, and both single and multiple sparrign situations.

4) concept based instead of technique based teaching: I want to teach my students how to fish, I dont want to catch the fish for them, I want them to learn how to think, how to keep their hands alive, redy to flow with a situation, (again this is why I find that drills counteract this)

although in the early stages it may seem light, stance development can be an intense and very gruelling experiance, at times I want to tel my student to take it easy for his sake, but I cant do this, I cant rob him, I wont.

I am going to push through what ever I need to to ensure that I pass on the effective and powerful art passed down to me by my Sifu, I wont go the way of quick, easy and pretty fixes to pull the massess, I wont dishonour my Sifu in this way. His desire is that the real deal be taught, I will do it.

I think for those who suggested referal growth, this will have to be the way for me, it may take longer, but hopefully will ensure that I get the real deal in terms of students, I guess it is better to train 10 people who want to be effective, than 100 people who want to play at it. If they want to take it easy and play at it they are better of going somewhere else. I dont judge them, its their choice, I guess they are just not the type of student I am after, they would be unhappy with me and Iwith them.

[Makalakumu]

What, exactly, is a McDojo? People have a difficult time coming to a consensus on this.
I think we need to look no further then McDonalds if we want to find out what a McDojo actually is. Take a look at your average big mac and draw your own analogies...

There are many steps that have gone into making this sandwich (Mcdojo).

1. The first step is standardization. Every peice of this product is monitored and controlled so that they will all be the same.
2. The next step is the obtainment of the materials. The cheapest, most readily available, ingredients are the ones that go into the pot.
3. The next step involves the use of chemicals. Hundreds of chemicals are added to the natural ingredients in order to hide the substandard flavor.
4. The next step is assembly. This sandwich is put together by people who don't care about the product and it is done as fast as possible.
5. The next step is marketing. Only the best looking (specially prepared) products end up in ads and all packaging is flashy, complete with canned specially designed phrases that catch the ear.
6. The last step is consumption. The consumer who buys this product is looking for something consistant, comfortable, and cheap.

In my opinion, a "McDojo" is a franchise whose "product" resembles a Big Mac.

upnorthkyosa

[MJS]

I apreciate everyones feedback, and welcome the comments made. I will give you a snapshot of what I am doing at the moment.

[quote]1) offering grades:this is simply to carve up the curriculum in to bite sized and therefore digestable chunks, the grades are free, I am not going to charge someone for what they have legitimatly earnt, however the grading requirements are very strict, in essence, they need to prove that they can do the business, before they have the right to earn that belt.

Good idea. Even if there were no actual belts, but instead level, etc. I think its good that you're making sure that they can do/apply the material. One sign of a belt factory or whatever you want to call it, is people running around with high rank and they can't do the material.


2) Abstain from drills: It is my personal (tested) experiance that these can do more harm than good (I am refering to hit/block/hit/block type deals [if you know what I mean]) and focus more on the basics i.e. stance, technique, energy development, sensitivity (chi sao).

Drills along the lines of focus pad work would be good. It won't be a dead, stationary pattern, but instead include some movement while hitting.


3) Incrementally lead to sparring: Not throwing them into the deep end as this will only serve to the student developing a tense energy instead of relaxed, and pliable energy, but aiming to get into full contact both empty hands and weapons, and both single and multiple sparrign situations.

Agreed. Have them get the basics/fundamentals down.


4) concept based instead of technique based teaching: I want to teach my students how to fish, I dont want to catch the fish for them, I want them to learn how to think, how to keep their hands alive, redy to flow with a situation, (again this is why I find that drills counteract this)

:)


although in the early stages it may seem light, stance development can be an intense and very gruelling experiance, at times I want to tel my student to take it easy for his sake, but I cant do this, I cant rob him, I wont.

I am going to push through what ever I need to to ensure that I pass on the effective and powerful art passed down to me by my Sifu, I wont go the way of quick, easy and pretty fixes to pull the massess, I wont dishonour my Sifu in this way. His desire is that the real deal be taught, I will do it.

I think for those who suggested referal growth, this will have to be the way for me, it may take longer, but hopefully will ensure that I get the real deal in terms of students, I guess it is better to train 10 people who want to be effective, than 100 people who want to play at it. If they want to take it easy and play at it they are better of going somewhere else. I dont judge them, its their choice, I guess they are just not the type of student I am after, they would be unhappy with me and Iwith them.

IMHO, you're off to a very good start with your goals! :ultracool

Mike

[FearlessFreep]

In my opinion, a "McDojo" is a franchise whose "product" resembles a Big Mac.

Ironically, I no longer eat at 'McDonalds', either...for many of the reasons mentioned...

[mantis]

I had a conversation with an MA supplier 2 days ago, when I quizzed him on Marketing strategy involved in setting up an MA school. Without going in to great detail, the essence of what he was saying is that to make a success of any MA school, you essentially have to become a Mcdojo/belt factory and that by and large people want to live in a fantasy and dont want to put the hard yards in to actually obtain true fighting skill. When I suggested that I did not want to water down the art to make it marketable, he basically said to me, "then you are going to have look at it as a hobby, teach a few people because that is as far as it is going to get".

Does everyone out there think that is true??????????????? in any industry/field/profession there's a way to make quick cash that will succeed on the short run, but will definitely fail on the long run.
I'd strive to create a name, a legacy. this way i might not sell to everyone, but i'll sell until i die!

[mj-hi-yah]

I had a conversation with an MA supplier 2 days ago, when I quizzed him on Marketing strategy involved in setting up an MA school. Without going in to great detail, the essence of what he was saying is that to make a success of any MA school, you essentially have to become a Mcdojo/belt factory and that by and large people want to live in a fantasy and dont want to put the hard yards in to actually obtain true fighting skill. When I suggested that I did not want to water down the art to make it marketable, he basically said to me, "then you are going to have look at it as a hobby, teach a few people because that is as far as it is going to get".

Does everyone out there think that is true???????????????Consider what you think makes a successful school. For some people success is connected to how much money they earn regardless of how they earn it. This may or may not be the case in some of the more commercialized schools. There are some people who desire what a commercial school may have to offer, and I agree with what others have said, that if there are people who are willing to pay for it, there will be school owners who achieve great financial success whether or not there is quality of instruction.

To some people success is connected to personal satisfaction that comes from a job well done... with financial gain being a bonus to that, but not the main goal. Keep in mind though that in order to keep the doors open and the lights burning, there are bills that must be paid. A good MA business need not be in the form of a Mcdojo. You can stay true to the quality of instruction that you hold important and run a reasonably successful business. In order to do that you need to show people why what you are teaching is important and have them take some ownership for their learning of the material. People will want to do things that they feel they are good at. If you make it your goal to help people find personal success in what you are teaching by encouraging their efforts to improve and not just rewarding them with inauthentic external tokens, such as belts that have no personal meaning, they are more likely to stay with it for the long haul, and your business can be both a personal and a financial success.

[Grenadier]

The term "McDojo" primarily refers to a school that does not really place much of an emphasis on the quality of the teaching, and the finished product. It's more of the lack of quality, instead of a cheap cost. If anything, from what I've seen, "McDojo's" tend to cost more than decent schools. A McDojo is more interested in the all mighty dollar, instead of giving good instruction.

Standards are lax, and fundamentals are usually not strongly emphasized. The term "McDojo" does not necessarily contain itself within any particular given style of martial arts; there can be Shotokan Karate McDojo's, Tae Kwon Do McDojo's, Jiu Jitsu McDojo's, etc; instead, it's the manner in which the material (or lack thereof) is presented, and the strength of the standards used (again, or lack thereof).

Some students will stick with a McDojo because they do not know any better, or of any better. Others will stick with a McDojo because they want the quick and easy black belt, which is often times promised too easily.

Usually, the students who come from a McDojo are exposed for what they are when compared to their peers from other dojos. If, for example, one takes a look at two Shotokan karateka, one coming from a good school and one coming from a Shotokan McDojo, it's usually going to be painfully obvious who came from which dojo, if you just look at their fundamentals, whether it is seen in kihon, kumite, or kata. Just look at the stances, the kime, the zanshin, etc. The old saying of "it all comes out in the wash" holds especially true.

Now, the question remains, does this mean that an expensive school is a McDojo? The answer is this: Not necessarily. There are many good schools that give excellent instruction, that can charge a hefty amount and have the people that are willing to pay.

Also, another question is "Are there cheap McDojo's?" The answer is: Yes. Some will offer a relatively low price, in order to get as many students as possible, figuring that the sheer quantity of subscribers will generate a greater volume of profit.

[mj-hi-yah]

I think for those who suggested referal growth, this will have to be the way for me, it may take longer, but hopefully will ensure that I get the real deal in terms of students, I guess it is better to train 10 people who want to be effective, than 100 people who want to play at it. If they want to take it easy and play at it they are better of going somewhere else. I dont judge them, its their choice, I guess they are just not the type of student I am after, they would be unhappy with me and Iwith them.I just read this post. It sounds like you are off to a good start and have a good philosophy. My instructor does not advertise at all. In listening to what you say here, I think that is a good way for you to go. Our school is relatively small, but the turnover of adult students is also very small, and at times it feels more like a family than anything else. People come and work hard and their belts are really earned, especially the adult students. I do imagine that my instructor will not get rich at this in the financial sense, as there are many bills to pay, but he has often told me he considers himself to be very rich and lucky to have the students he has and to be doing something he loves without compromise. So just know that if that is your ideal than you may not become rich in the monetary sense but most likely you will consider yourself a success! :asian:

MJ :)

[Flying Crane]

I think if you want to remain true to your art and keep quality high, you need to start small and grow gradually. Find a small group of students who are serious about their desire to learn a quality art, and are serious about their commitment to training regularly, realistically, and intensly.

Keep your overhead small. Start by meeting in city parks for your training sessions. This may also give you some exposure, and attract a few more potential students.

If the park is not an option for some reason, look for other options such as your garage or backyard. Maybe you could offer classes at the local community college or YMCA or gyms. You might even end up with different groups of students who train with you at each location.

Eventually, you may grow large enough that it makes sense to secure your own school. The problem is that once you are responsible for the costs of running a formal school, then the money side becomes a much bigger issue. This is when you fall into the danger of becoming something like a McDojo. Just enter into this with your eyes open.

You will probably have to keep an alternative means of income for a while, maybe even a long time, but perhaps your following will eventually grow big enough that you can break away from that.

We all have the dream of making our living by doing what we love. It can be hard to do, but can also be very rewarding. I think making baby steps in that direction is the way to make it happen. Be patient and stick to it, and don't compromise your integrity or your standards.

I have also been considering the possibility of starting a small training group. I have had some people express an interest in studying under me, but I have not had the time to organize a class yet. I have a lot of obligations and interests, and time is short. But these are issues I have considered as well, so I find this thread, and the comments people have made, to be very interesting. Thank you everyone. Best wishes, and keep us updated how things progress.

michael

[arnisador]

A few threads that try to define a McDojo:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24570
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17939
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15102
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=878
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15156

Trying to decide just what is and isn't a McDojo has been a popular topic of conversation!

[mj-hi-yah]

Michael's last post makes some very important points about starting small. I also want to add that it is not evil to make a living from martial arts instruction. You have a service to offer, and if people want that service they will buy it. Your fees should be reasonable, but if you do not charge enough that you eventually must shut your doors on the students that have committed to learning with you, it is tragic in a different sense. Having some sort of business plan is responsible. :asian:

[Kamaria Annina]

I also disagree to what that person said. I absolutely do not believe in belt facorties. I firmly believe that one should stick to the traditions of their art. In our studio, we aren't even allowed to approve new techniques, (aside from sparring techniques) because, it wasn't the way our founding master taught us. To me, the belt factory situation is nothing more than a false comfort.

[Tgace]

Believe in them or not, when it comes to making money they are kicking ***.

[Flying Crane]

I firmly believe that one should stick to the traditions of their art. In our studio, we aren't even allowed to approve new techniques, (aside from sparring techniques) because, it wasn't the way our founding master taught us.
Believe it or not, the Martial Arts should be a living art. This means that it does change from person to person and generation to generation. In part, changes happen simply because people are different and no two people do things exactly the same. There is a difference between holding true to tradition, and being stifled by it. If the attitude expressed above is taken to the extreme, you may find your art to be limited and limiting. Don't close your mind to new ideas, regardless of their source.

Remember: what we practice today in the martial arts is simply something that somebody else, a human being just like you are, created. While he is hopefully much more knowledgeable and experienced in the martial arts, as a human being, he is also subject to imperfections, mistakes, and short-sightedness. As human beings, we are all flawed.

Hopefully, your art was created based on sound and effective technique. However, it is not sacred. It was not created by a diety. To treat it as if it is sacred will ultimately stifle your practice, and your skills.

[Solidman82]

I think that these days we've all just lost perspective and as a result, we all think of school as a grey area now. I believe the purest and (just my opinion) best form of teaching is single student to teacher. Or in some cases 2 or 3 students (rivalry can help sometimes). I think a nifty experiment would be to take a student or two avidly interested in martial arts (doesn't mean skilled, just interested) a decent martial artist and natural teacher (I think good teaching is something not everyone can do). and just send them away to a secluded area to live and train together for a year without the issue of money, contracts, rank, or status in the world of martial arts. if you had to ask me my theory on what would happen I believe you'd produce some high quality and probably humble fighters that would've excelled greatly from the experience.



Just a thought,
Jeff

[Kamaria Annina]

Believe it or not, the Martial Arts should be a living art. This means that it does change from person to person and generation to generation. In part, changes happen simply because people are different and no two people do things exactly the same. There is a difference between holding true to tradition, and being stifled by it. If the attitude expressed above is taken to the extreme, you may find your art to be limited and limiting. Don't close your mind to new ideas, regardless of their source.

Remember: what we practice today in the martial arts is simply something that somebody else, a human being just like you are, created. While he is hopefully much more knowledgeable and experienced in the martial arts, as a human being, he is also subject to imperfections, mistakes, and short-sightedness. As human beings, we are all flawed.

Hopefully, your art was created based on sound and effective technique. However, it is not sacred. It was not created by a diety. To treat it as if it is sacred will ultimately stifle your practice, and your skills.

I agree with the majority of what you say, however I disagree whenever two seperate try to develop completly different teachings. We've had this problem at my dojo, and it looks as if there are two different arts under roof, and it does create confusion. If a person wishes to do that, I believe they should branch out and run their own school to their own liking. That, I have no problem with. Yes, in our school, we make new methods, but we do not try to change the basic things we were taught... front kick, etc. (hopefully that'll clear up what I meant?)

[arnisador]

Not all arts want to be living arts. Look at iaido--there's an attemptto preserve a legacy there. Not everyone trains for self-defense!

[Flying Crane]

Not all arts want to be living arts. Look at iaido--there's an attemptto preserve a legacy there. Not everyone trains for self-defense!
this is true, but Iado is not an art that claims to teach modern, useable self defense. any art that does make this claim needs to be alive.

[Flying Crane]

I agree with the majority of what you say, however I disagree whenever two seperate try to develop completly different teachings. We've had this problem at my dojo, and it looks as if there are two different arts under roof, and it does create confusion. If a person wishes to do that, I believe they should branch out and run their own school to their own liking. That, I have no problem with. Yes, in our school, we make new methods, but we do not try to change the basic things we were taught... front kick, etc. (hopefully that'll clear up what I meant?)
Perhaps I misunderstood what you intended to say, but the language you used seemed to indicate a rigid and ultra-strict situation. If that is not the case, then I apologize for jumping the gun. I just wanted to caution you to keep an open mind, that is all.

[arnisador]

this is true, but Iado is not an art that claims to teach modern, useable self defense. any art that does make this claim needs to be alive.
No argument! But I think it's important to remember that there are many arts and many reasons people study them. Someone taking kyudo, or western foil fencing, isn't necessarily looking for anything that will help them defend themselves. The martial arts community is broader than that!

[Kamaria Annina]

Perhaps I misunderstood what you intended to say, but the language you used seemed to indicate a rigid and ultra-strict situation. If that is not the case, then I apologize for jumping the gun. I just wanted to caution you to keep an open mind, that is all.
Don't worry about it, I respect your opinion :) Lately, I've been picking up various books, expanding my knowledge to other arts, I think it's a good thing, just to see what else is out there.