Forms: really necessary for combat

[Eric Daniel]

Hey guy's
Why do we practice forms? Do we have to practice forms for combat? What are the good and dad's of practicing forms? Does everything we do have form? Why does it take many, many years to remember one or two Kata, hyung, forms (However you pronounce your form)? Can forms be used in a confrontation on the street?

[FearlessFreep]

*grabs popcorn to watch the show*

[Andrew Green]

Forms are not neccessary for combat.

Not everything martial artists do is done solely for combative value though.

[Flying Crane]

Forms are an important part of many (not all) martial arts. Mostly, they are still found in the more traditional martial arts, but some of the martial arts with a more competitive approach have distanced themselves from them.

Forms are a way of catalogueing and teaching all (or most) of the techniques found in a martial system. Originally, these techniques were battlefield-tested, were found to be valuable, and were then kept as part of a system. Forms were created as a way of organizing the techniques into a curriculum so that it can be practiced systematically, as well as taught to others systematically.

Not all forms today consist of battlefield-tested techniques. In our modern day, we often do not have the opportunity to exhaustively test our techniques in a real life-or-death situation. Some of the forms that have been created in more recent times, then, may consist of techniques that are less reliable than those that were created in older days. Especially, in my opinion, many of the forms that are created with an eye to modern forms competition, are pretty worthless. That is, they are both pretty, and worthless. Fun to watch, very athletic, but very little of value when it comes to reliable technique.

The older forms were created from techniques that were proven effective, but also took into consideration other elements in one's surroundings. This would include geography, types of clothing worn, weapons used, armor, social norms surrounding combat, etc. Because of this, not everything in the older forms is still effective today. What is important to recognize is whether or not your forms are alive, or dead. A living form has techniques that are still useful. A dead form has techniques that are either no longer useful due to societal changes, or are simply flashy but useless, meant for modern competition.

In my opinion, the practice of living forms is very important, as it enables one to practice the complete system. But forms practice alone is not enough. One must drill the application of the techniques with training partners, so that the meaning and usefulness of the form is fully understood. In addition, some type of meaningful contact sparring is also important to develop the skills needed to deal with an unpredictable and changing situation.

The practice of forms should not be done as an end in an of itself. The goal should not be to give a beautiful performance, but rather to develop the techniques that are found in the form. It is also important to understand that the combinations of techniques that are found in a form are only one way to apply the techniques, and are not the only way. Once one has developed their technique, the application can be done in many different ways.

In short, once again in my opinion, forms practice done correctly is a very important part of training in many martial arts. It is not the only important part of training, however.

michael

[clfsean]

*grabs popcorn to watch the show*
**mooching popcorn & taking Alleve in preparation for the headache to follow this thread**

[TonyM.]

forms forms forms forms, forms forms forms forms, forms! wonderful forms!

[arnisador]

It's a choice of how one trains and how one transmits an art. Some arts use them, some don't. Both ways can work.

[Flying Crane]

.

[searcher]

??????????????? *would like to mooch popcorn and alleve, but it is all gone*

[Brother John]

Hey guy's
Why do we practice forms? Do we have to practice forms for combat? What are the good and dad's of practicing forms? Does everything we do have form? Why does it take many, many years to remember one or two Kata, hyung, forms (However you pronounce your form)? Can forms be used in a confrontation on the street?

Why do I practice forms?
Better question, why do you? ASK your instructor! GROW in your art before you begin to worry toooooo much about WHY certain things are done as they are.....because before you have a solid foundation at the beginning, then you don't have a very good perspective or basis for comparison.

Does everything we do have form?
Strange question.
Can you do something, physically, that DOESN'T have "Form"??
Taking years to remember just a couple of forms???
ODD!!!!
Your last question, can forms be used in a confrontation....?

MOST ODD.
Of course they can't. They aren't a "way of fighting" but something to help prepare you to fight.




Your Brother
John

[Eric Daniel]

Your last question, can forms be used in a confrontation....?
MOST ODD.
Of course they can't. They aren't a "way of fighting" but something to help prepare you to fight.
Your BrotherJohnHow do you know that forms are not a "way of fighting"? Are you sure forms can't be used in a confrontation?

[Gemini]

How do you know that forms are not a "way of fighting"? Are you sure forms can't be used in a confrontation?You've gotten some excellent replies to your questions. I would recommend you re-read them and think about the responses. If you do, I think you'll find your questions were answered. I'm by no means trying to discourage you from asking questions, just take some time to digest what you've already received.

Regards,

[Kenpo_man]

Forms are fun to do and look nice as some have already said but they do not include even close to enough of the dynamics of combat to properly prepare a person for combat. There are no feints, no contact (except for the rare two person form which, again, lacks feints) and no fear of being hit. Also, what about grappling. Grappling is an important factor for combat yet I've never seen a grappling art with a form to practice, only techniques.

(I remember when this question would have started an argument but everyone here seems to see forms in a more realistic sense. Has martial arts evolved enough to actually question old traditions??? wow!!!)

[clfsean]

Forms are fun to do and look nice as some have already said but they do not include even close to enough of the dynamics of combat to properly prepare a person for combat.
They're not supposed to. They're a textbook. Textbooks teach theories & techniques. Application of the textbook theory & technique teaches dynamics.



There are no feints, no contact (except for the rare two person form which, again, lacks feints) and no fear of being hit.
Hmm... not my two mans. They'll remove body parts if you miss.



Also, what about grappling. Grappling is an important factor for combat yet I've never seen a grappling art with a form to practice, only techniques.
Koryu jujutsu & Judo ...



(I remember when this question would have started an argument but everyone here seems to see forms in a more realistic sense. Has martial arts evolved enough to actually question old traditions??? wow!!!)
Nah... I don't question, I just examine. Most people who question haven't examined yet or don't understand what they did find & see.

[FearlessFreep]

As a musician, I like to think of it as "forms are to martial arts what scales are to jazz" Playing scales ianot playing jazz, but the basic theory and muscle motion used in scales are a building block to playing jazz and howmuch you learn from scales and how you apply them and go inside them to learn from them will effect what you get out of them and how you apply them to your playing. Forms are not the MA or even how to do the MA but they contain the fundamental building blocks of the MA and what you get out of them depends on what you look for in them and how you approach them and how you use them.

[DavidCC]

In kids' class last week we were talking about what to do if confronted by a group of attackers (correct answer: run!) and one littel guy, who is very thoughtful for 6 years old, had this to say:


Instructor: "What should you do if 5 of those mean kids who hang out behind the school start to threaten you"
Ian: "Well, if they were all in the right spots, you could do Pinan One"

the hardest thing I did that day was not fall down laughing :boing1: :boing1:

[mantis]

as long as you know the principles..

[tradrockrat]

Hey! Who ate all the popcorn?


I'm putting this in quotes so there is no mistaking that the words ARE NOT MINE, but just something I heard a long time ago, and I thought it might be nice to hear what you all have to say on it:



Martial - 1. of soldiers and war: characteristic of or suitable for soldiers, the military life, or war

There are three levels of martial activity:

Martial Combat
Martial Sport
Martial Art

To confuse one with the other is to miss the point entirely. A martial art has at its heart the esthetic of motion. Yes it is based on Martial Combat, and yes it is honed through Martial Sport, but to think that martial arts is for self defense is to demean it. Martial arts is an ART! If you want to defend yourself, take self defense courses. Forms and other "useless" aspects of M A's are actually what makes martial arts an Art. They are where the esthetic resides. Perfection of motion - that is art. Does a right cross have to be "perfect" to work? Of course not. If it's thrown well, and connects, it will do the job -- but a perfect right cross is art. Everything in its place. You don't hire DaVinci to paint your shutters, you don't use forms in the street. At the same time, you don't hire "Bubba's House Painters" to do The Last Supper.

[Brother John]

How do you know that forms are not a "way of fighting"? Are you sure forms can't be used in a confrontation?

huh??

Forms as a "Way of fighting"...???
You mean....that some attacker is going to stick to the routine?? That he knows what to do next and will do so from the proper angle and at the proper time??

I really don't understand what you are getting at.




Look....
Forms contain a lot of information, techniques, principles....etc. etc. If you really study these things and work on the "QUALITIES" that forms work entails... then your ability to fight will grow. They aren't "How to fight" lessons persay.... more like preparation.
Flow, good form, precision, continuity of action, smooth transitions, balance, speed, power, focus.......................the list goes on.

What the form Teaches IS important, but what the forms really do for us is not so much add to the Quantity of what we do, but accelerate the Quality of how we do it!!!!

Something to think about.




Your Brother (hope you understand)
John

[BlackCatBonz]

As a musician, I like to think of it as "forms are to martial arts what scales are to jazz" Playing scales ianot playing jazz, but the basic theory and muscle motion used in scales are a building block to playing jazz and howmuch you learn from scales and how you apply them and go inside them to learn from them will effect what you get out of them and how you apply them to your playing. Forms are not the MA or even how to do the MA but they contain the fundamental building blocks of the MA and what you get out of them depends on what you look for in them and how you approach them and how you use them.
amen, brother!

as to forms not containing anything about throwing or grappling.....ever seen pinan shodan?

the first 4 movements are a cornucopia of throwing and joint locks.

[MJS]

Hey guy's
Why do we practice forms?

Forms are a pre-arranged set or pattern designed to teach blocks, strikes, kicks, stances, how to block/strike at the same time while moving, etc. The list can go on and on.


Do we have to practice forms for combat?

IMO, understanding what the moves are doing in addition to being able to do the moves is very important. If we stop and think about it, a form is a series of SD techniques. Can a form teach you how to fight? Putting on some gear and sparring is going to give you a better feel for that.


What are the good and dad's of practicing forms?

The list can be endless. You'll find answers to this question in my above replies.


Does everything we do have form?

Not form in the way of a kata, but you do need to have proper 'form' when executing your various moves.



Why does it take many, many years to remember one or two Kata, hyung, forms (However you pronounce your form)?

As I said above...we can do a form and never understand it beyond just moving in a set pattern. The translations are the important part. So, to answer your question...practice, practice, practice!

[quoteCan forms be used in a confrontation on the street?[/QUOTE]

Will the attackers on the street be set up in the same position as they are in the kata? Of course not. Again, they (the kata) are a preset series of moves, SD techniques. It is possible to apply ideas/concepts to a SD situation.

Mike

[MJS]

Also, what about grappling. Grappling is an important factor for combat yet I've never seen a grappling art with a form to practice, only techniques.

Grappling meaning grabs, chokes, holds: That is addressed in forms. Again, all the more reason to understand what we're doing in those forms.

Grappling meaning BJJ, Judo, etc.: I have not seen any of these arts go through a 'form' in the sense that we're discussing here. However, they do contain preset drills. For example: running through a pin-flow series can be considered a 'form'. You can run a series of escapes which can be considered a 'form'. A boxer does not have 'forms' but we can look at the various combos that are thrown during focus pad drills. Again, not a form like a pinan, but in a way, its still a form. :)

Mike

[Shaolinwind]

Hey guy's
Why do we practice forms? Do we have to practice forms for combat? What are the good and dad's of practicing forms? Does everything we do have form? Why does it take many, many years to remember one or two Kata, hyung, forms (However you pronounce your form)? Can forms be used in a confrontation on the street?
Because they typically have all the moves we need to know at our current level, absolutely, I don't know what that means, yes, because they are hard, not exactly.

Short answer by me (please note that I am frequently wrong). I'll leave the details to those who know more about martial arts, but for me I feel repeating forms has endless benefit.

[Brother John]

Grappling meaning grabs, chokes, holds: That is addressed in forms. Again, all the more reason to understand what we're doing in those forms.
Mike

Mike...
this tid-bit usually blows people away. Especially if all they've ever done is observe the surface of the forms instead of plumb their depths.


Your Brother
John

[arnisador]

Grappling meaning BJJ, Judo, etc.: I have not seen any of these arts go through a 'form' in the sense that we're discussing here.
Judo does have two-person forms, but they're not very much emphasized anymore.

[arnisador]

It's the same thing whether one studies solo forms, two-person forms (as in Kenpo or one-step sparring from TKD), or isolated techniques. Either you take those ideas from your training and train them effectively, or you don't. There's nothing wrong with solo forms or two-person forms. (A colleague studies an art with some three-person forms.) You either make it live, or not.

Kata can be great. It communicates techniques, builds in responses, and allows for solo practice when a partner isn't available. But you need free-flowing partner training to functionalize it.

[kempoguy71]

Form training can mean different things to different people / systems…

As some have already mentioned it could be understood as an encyclopedia / catalogue of techniques; it could be the performance of a specific technique as taught in Japanese swordmanship or traditional jujutsu; and some would even say that forms could represent kinetic chains (see below).

In a Karate context, depending on the system/teacher, the applications of the forms may be “wysiwyg” (what you see is what you get), in other words the translation of the form is based on obvious movement (an upward block is an upward block etc.); while others teach bunkai (applications) of the forms that may not be very obvious when looking at the kata.

I have also been taught that forms were designed as kinetic chains (particularly in Chinese Internal Martial Arts). This would mean that through the practice of forms one learn to become biomechanically more efficient; learn the principles of proper structural alignment and power generation; learning how to regulate your breath and how it relates to the reduction of fear reactivity; as well as the concept of dynamic relaxation.

You could also in some instances say that through the practice of forms you are studying human combative behavior (within its cultural context).

One of my teachers (of a Japanese Budo) used to say that the study of Budo (Martial Ways) and forms / kata is for one primary purpose, what the Japanese calls "Ningen Keisei", character building. And explained the main principle behind “Ningen Keisei” as being: perseverance, i.e. never giving up even when discouraged, and that your training is about unceasing training... How you practice the art rather than what one practices, being the primary purpose of training.


I’d also like to comment on forms training as seen through traditional / classical (Japanese) martial arts to offer a slightly different perspective for this discussion.

Most traditional / classical arts (at least as I understand it) were developed out of principles that were tested in “real” combat (created out of necessity in many instances). They were founded upon revelations experienced during combat/battles and distilled down to find the essence of these conflicts. You could say these systems underwent a process of natural selection (“survival of the fittest” if you will), meaning that arts with flawed operating systems ceased to exist (these practitioners got killed over time).

The arts that made it went through constant refinement over centuries (in many cases) by succeeding generations. They had to distill the principles and philosophies and create a basic operating system in order to simplify transmission. Hence the use of forms…

BTW, this does not mean that these traditional systems aren’t based on sophisticated principles and philosophies. I ask, how can we dismiss these revelations that were taken from real combat experience? Again, some people may argue that combat (or it’s essence) has changed and that the realities of today are different from the realities faced by our ancestors. But I won’t get into that here…

We should remember that their training consisted almost entirely of kata training, whether done solo or with a partner. However, once at an advanced level the teacher would often switch movements of the kata mid-stream when teaching their students. Keep in mind these kata were performed at full speed and intent (often with the use of a bokken / wooden sword), in order to teach their students to switch techniques without thinking. This was sometimes referred to as 'oyo waza'. In any event, I wouldn't hesitate to call these practitioners "martial artists".

I think that the saying “Shu, Ha, Ri” is appropriate when discussing forms within this context. This means to embrace the form, diverge from the form and finally discarding the form. In some ways by adopting the cultural trappings and absorbing the art through the practice of kata you become part of the art with free expression of the combative principles. This is perhaps the fundamental difference between modern and traditional/classical martial arts.


Let me end by saying that I feel the study and understanding of forms as a whole is what separates many of the “traditional” systems from an empty form of pugilism.


Hope this made some sense...

KG

[BlackCatBonz]

a kata teaches you the proper "form" for the art you are studying.
lots of systems have an upper block or lower parry....but the way they do that movement is going to be evident in the way that they do it in their own kata.
it is important when learning your forms to imitate as closely as possible the correct way of doing it. doing an upper block correctly contains elements that wouldnt normally be seen on first glance. i think imitation part of learning should take the longest so that the correct form becomes an intrinsic part of the motion.

instead of questioning why at first.....just do. there will be plenty of time later in your training to ask all kinds of questions.
i find it funny that after a few months of training.....new students think they are going to re-invent the wheel and want to come up with all kinds of better ways of doing things.

[MJS]

Judo does have two-person forms, but they're not very much emphasized anymore.

Yes Sir, I believe thats correct! I recall a similar discussion on kata in Judo and someone did mention that there was mention of this. I did a search online and came across this.

http://judoinfo.com/katamenu.htm

Not sure if this is what you're referring to, but this is what I found.

Mike

[MJS]

Mike...
this tid-bit usually blows people away. Especially if all they've ever done is observe the surface of the forms instead of plumb their depths.


Your Brother
John

Very true John! I'm still amazed as to how many applications are out there. Every time I taught a kata, I always tried to make a point of giving at least 1 explaination/application for the moves.

Mike

[Kenpo_man]

They're not supposed to. They're a textbook. Textbooks teach theories & techniques. Application of the textbook theory & technique teaches dynamics.I sort of know that. In fact, it's pretty clear that it was the point I was trying to make.



Hmm... not my two mans. They'll remove body parts if you miss.I said no contact except for two mans so I don't see how what you're saying is any different than what I said.



Koryu jujutsu & Judo ... I didn't know they had kata, that's cool. I guess I was reffering more to grappling on the ground than on stand up grappling. I'm talking about submissions and the positional game, not techniques that include chokes or take downs. I've personally never seen somebody on the ground rolling around by themselves doing a "ground kata". Just because I said that I'll find ten people with an example of one I bet . . .lol.

[Kenpo_man]

Hmm... not my two mans. They'll remove body parts if you miss.Perhaps you were referring to me saying "the rare two man form". The word rare was to illustrate that two man forms themselves are pretty rare when compared to the number of solo forms out there.

You know, every time I'm not extremely clear on here, somebody hears something different than what I meant. I gotta remember that.

[Gemini]

You know, every time I'm not extremely clear on here, somebody hears something different than what I meant. I gotta remember that. Happens to everyone now and again. Don't sweat it. You're the artist drawing the picture. If someone fails to understand your point, just try again. :wink2:

Regards,

[Pacificshore]

Hey guy's
Why do we practice forms? Do we have to practice forms for combat? What are the good and dad's of practicing forms? Does everything we do have form? Why does it take many, many years to remember one or two Kata, hyung, forms (However you pronounce your form)? Can forms be used in a confrontation on the street?
1. Why do I practice forms?
Well because I enjoy them and it has been a big part of my years of training. Plus, I've learned so much more about kata as I matured in my training.

2. Do I have to practice forms for combat?
No, I don't think so.....well maybe, sure.

3. Does everything we do have form?
Heck, I hope so!

4. What are the good and bad of practicing forms?
The good, new knowledge, body mechanics, etc.
The bad, unrealistic expectations from lack of understanding what kata training is all about.

5. Why does it take years to learn a form?
Depending on the kata, or how much knowledge your seeking in a kata will determine the length of time you spend on it.

6. Can a form be used in a street confrontation?
A kata can be used in any confrontation as much as a broom can be :rolleyes: ......again go back to the unrealistic expectations in the good and bad of learning forms.

Just my 2 cents :idunno:

[arnisador]

http://judoinfo.com/katamenu.htm

Not sure if this is what you're referring to, but this is what I found.

Yes, I do think that that's right. They're practiced in series, as a kata, somewhat similar to doing all 12 seitei iaido techniques in a row.

But, often people never learn them at all anymore--even black belts!

[arnisador]

Perhaps you were referring to me saying "the rare two man form". The word rare was to illustrate that two man forms themselves are pretty rare when compared to the number of solo forms out there.
I dunno. A person could say that Kenpo has about 150 of them--all very short. It's a matter of perspective, perhaps.

[bcbernam777]

Forms are not neccessary for combat.

Not everything martial artists do is done solely for combative value though.
Sorry, totally wrong, forms are essential for combat, it is in your form (I am speaking from a WC perspective but also from the perspective of someone who has studied several MA's before WC), that you learn your techniques, you absorb the concepts of fighting and develop your centre of gravity. Of all of those people I have sparred with, the ones with the higher skill level where those who had trained in an MA that contained forms. The most marked aspect of those who I sparred with who did not have a form/s in their MA, was that they lacked a strong sense of structure and had a lower develop center of gravity. (this has been my observation through personal experiance and as such I limit the scope of my reply soley to those experiances)

[beauty_in_the_sai]

I personally like forms. I know it disagrees with JKD, but I mainly like them for the art and beauty of it. I don't think they'd work well in a fight though. What they do do, however, is help build concentration and help you work on your technique. I also use them as somewhat of a meditation as I block out everything when I do forms.

[Eric Daniel]

You've gotten some excellent replies to your questions. I would recommend you re-read them and think about the responses. If you do, I think you'll find your questions were answered. I'm by no means trying to discourage you from asking questions, just take some time to digest what you've already received.

Regards,
Yes but than Others would not be interested. I know what my answers our! I just like to here others opinions.

[Eric Daniel]

[QUOTE=Kenpo_man]Forms are fun to do and look nice as some have already said but they do not include even close to enough of the dynamics of combat to properly prepare a person for combat. There are no feints, no contact (except for the rare two person form which, again, lacks feints) and no fear of being hit. Also, what about grappling. Grappling is an important factor for combat yet I've never seen a grappling art with a form to practice, only techniques.

Are you sure there is no form in grappling? Do you do rolls? I am sure there is "form" to rolling you just have to analyze it. When you do or at least first learn a takedown or throw don't you go step by step? That can be a form ( A really strange one but still a form.) I may be going over the edge a little bit but isn't there "form" to everything we do in life? There can be "form" when you are driving, cooking, cleaning etc.

[Andrew Green]

Well, the top fighters in the full contact stream of things. Boxing, Muay Thai, MMA... As well as in the grappling based arts, Freestyle, Greco-Roman, Catch, BJJ... All manage just fine without forms. Going over to weapons, fencing seems to manage quite nicely.

In fact, many styles throught history have done quite nicely without using "forms".



Sorry, totally wrong, forms are essential for combat, it is in your form (I am speaking from a WC perspective but also from the perspective of someone who has studied several MA's before WC), that you learn your techniques, you absorb the concepts of fighting and develop your centre of gravity. Of all of those people I have sparred with, the ones with the higher skill level where those who had trained in an MA that contained forms. The most marked aspect of those who I sparred with who did not have a form/s in their MA, was that they lacked a strong sense of structure and had a lower develop center of gravity. (this has been my observation through personal experiance and as such I limit the scope of my reply soley to those experiances)

[Flying Crane]

Well, the top fighters in the full contact stream of things. Boxing, Muay Thai, MMA... As well as in the grappling based arts, Freestyle, Greco-Roman, Catch, BJJ... All manage just fine without forms. Going over to weapons, fencing seems to manage quite nicely.

In fact, many styles throught history have done quite nicely without using "forms".
True, there are those who do well without forms. Doesn't mean forms are worthless. There are also those who do well with forms.

[Eric Daniel]

Well, the top fighters in the full contact stream of things. Boxing, Muay Thai, MMA... As well as in the grappling based arts, Freestyle, Greco-Roman, Catch, BJJ... All manage just fine without forms. Going over to weapons, fencing seems to manage quite nicely.

In fact, many styles throught history have done quite nicely without using "forms".
Isn't there form when you learn to takedown a person?

[FearlessFreep]

I thought Muy Thai had forms?

[Flying Crane]

Isn't there form when you learn to takedown a person?
This is a good point. Forms are not necessarily the lengthy sequences of techniques typically done solo that are common to many of the traditional Asian martial arts. Any combination of techniques, long or short, done solo or with a partner, could be considered "Forms". It is the process of practicing the techniques in a somewhat "idealized" format, with the intent of learning/perfecting the physical movement that is "form". For example, a boxer throwing a jab/hook/cross combination over and over to develop the muscle memory is practicing forms. Likewise, practicing takedowns to get the technique right, whether done with a partner, or done alone with visualization, is also the practice of Forms.

[arnisador]

I thought Muy Thai had forms?
Well, I don't think those are intended to have combat applications. They're basically an elaborate greeting, I believe.

[FearlessFreep]

OK, under the heading of "Everything I know about Muy Thai I learned from whatching Ong-Bak: The Thai Warrior (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368909/)" I thought he was doing some fort of form near the beginning as part of his training

[Andrew Green]

True, there are those who do well without forms. Doesn't mean forms are worthless. There are also those who do well with forms.
The Question was are they neccessary. Clearly they are not. That deoes not mean they are worthless, just not neccessary.

[bcbernam777]

Well, the top fighters in the full contact stream of things. Boxing, Muay Thai, MMA... As well as in the grappling based arts, Freestyle, Greco-Roman, Catch, BJJ... All manage just fine without forms. Going over to weapons, fencing seems to manage quite nicely.

In fact, many styles throught history have done quite nicely without using "forms".
Like I said I am speaking from personal experiance of facing those who train with forms asn those who do not, and I rely on my personal experiances rather than subjective facts. To say that those arts manage without forms I will concede to but who is to say that perhaps they could have tapped into more potential in their arts through the use of forms, again this is a subjective argument, and hypothetical, besides all of this when we talk about form/s what is it we mean??? a preset format of techniques put together to teach not only technique but more importantly concept, if that definition is acceptable then there are many preset movements that many styles practice without being labelled forms, which could infact be called forms.

[arnisador]

OK, under the heading of "Everything I know about Muy Thai I learned from whatching Ong-Bak: The Thai Warrior (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368909/)" I thought he was doing some fort of form near the beginning as part of his training
Is this Ram Muay (?) ceremonial dance, or an actual martial arts form? I know they do a ceremonial form, but I don't know of a martial one.

[Andrew Green]

To say that those arts manage without forms I will concede to but who is to say that perhaps they could have tapped into more potential in their arts through the use of forms,
But the other side of that is that maybe those that did could have tapped into more of there potential if they had spent the time doing other things ;)

Until someone sets up a well planned double blind with a large sample base and it gets validated in more like studies, there is nothing but subjective opinions to go on.

All we can say is that good fighters can be trained with or without them, so they are not neccessary. Whether or not they are helpful, neutral or hurtful is a different issue.

[bcbernam777]

But the other side of that is that maybe those that did could have tapped into more of there potential if they had spent the time doing other things ;)

Until someone sets up a well planned double blind with a large sample base and it gets validated in more like studies, there is nothing but subjective opinions to go on.

All we can say is that good fighters can be trained with or without them, so they are not neccessary. Whether or not they are helpful, neutral or hurtful is a different issue.
Well in my belief, if you are to have anything that will give you an edge in a fight then I do see it as necessary, so I repectfully disagree with you, but I still feel the love :inlove: ;)

[Eric Daniel]

4. What are the good and bad of practicing forms?
The good, new knowledge, body mechanics, etc.
The bad, unrealistic expectations from lack of understanding what kata training is all about.

Why is there a lack of understanding of what kata training is all about? Does anyone know what kata training is all about?


6. Can a form be used in a street confrontation?
A kata can be used in any confrontation as much as a broom can be :rolleyes: ......again go back to the unrealistic expectations in the good and bad of learning forms.
Just my 2 cents :idunno:I believe a broom can be used in a confrontation if you have one in your hand at the time of the confrontation. If you practice things with a staff, can't you use the broom as a staff?

[Eric Daniel]

Well in my belief, if you are to have anything that will give you an edge in a fight then I do see it as necessary, so I repectfully disagree with you, but I still feel the love :inlove: ;)
I think that this is a great point. Froms may give you an edge in a fight!

[Bigshadow]

I believe a broom can be used in a confrontation if you have one in your hand at the time of the confrontation. If you practice things with a staff, can't you use the broom as a staff? Plus you can always fly off on it, if the situation gets unbearable. :rofl: j/k of course. :D

[DavidCC]

Isn't there form when you learn to takedown a person?
Most of the forms I have learned - descened from Okinawan forms, mostly - there are many levels of application. At the first layer of the onion a movement is just a strike or block or appears to be just a transation between this and that . But you peel back the onion a little more and there is more meaning there. The Japanese described 4 layers of meaning to a kata, I can't rememebr the Japanese words for them... the first shallowest and most obvious, is bunkai, a word most of us are familiar with.

but anyway, in these okinawan kata there are takedowns and throws in there, but you have to peel the onion a bit to see them, get passed the basic bunkai layer and go deeper.

[Flying Crane]

The Question was are they neccessary. Clearly they are not. That deoes not mean they are worthless, just not neccessary.
Not necessarily necessary (heh heh), but one option that can be useful.

[Eric Daniel]

Most of the forms I have learned - descened from Okinawan forms, mostly - there are many levels of application. At the first layer of the onion a movement is just a strike or block or appears to be just a transation between this and that . But you peel back the onion a little more and there is more meaning there. The Japanese described 4 layers of meaning to a kata, I can't rememebr the Japanese words for them... the first shallowest and most obvious, is bunkai, a word most of us are familiar with.

but anyway, in these okinawan kata there are takedowns and throws in there, but you have to peel the onion a bit to see them, get passed the basic bunkai layer and go deeper.
That is valid point. I think people have to learn the movements of a form and than look much deeper into the form to learn what the form means.

[BlackCatBonz]

Most of the forms I have learned - descened from Okinawan forms, mostly - there are many levels of application. At the first layer of the onion a movement is just a strike or block or appears to be just a transation between this and that . But you peel back the onion a little more and there is more meaning there. The Japanese described 4 layers of meaning to a kata, I can't rememebr the Japanese words for them... the first shallowest and most obvious, is bunkai, a word most of us are familiar with.

but anyway, in these okinawan kata there are takedowns and throws in there, but you have to peel the onion a bit to see them, get passed the basic bunkai layer and go deeper.
bunkai does not represent a single layer.....
the term is made by combining 2 characters the first being "bun - 分: relation, degree, dividing, detached"
the 2nd being "kai - 解: to solve, answer, untie, know"

in short, you could say "analysis" or "breakdown"......but the term itself goes much deeper than that.
bunkai is discovering the minute details or the "hidden" movements.

this is the fun part of kata, IMO, but it takes a long time to get familiar with the form at first.

[beauty_in_the_sai]

I don't think forms are absolutely necessary, but nevertheless, I still like them. They keep some of the history of the art in it, they are a good way to take out your anger without hurting someone (this can also be done with a punching bag), and they've helped me with concentration and technique. I think beginners need them, but after you are more advanced you don't need them, but I still like them anyway. I rather like the way my instructor taught.... We did forms 25% of the time and fighting 75% of it. He thought self defense and fighting were more important, but he also wanted to keep the traditions and history alive.

Becky :)

[jbclinic]

some or most forms display multiple attacks, that could help you flow in a street situation,some if not all teach you to hone your breath control,flexability etc, importantly forms whenpracticed helps biuld your awareness. so keep the forms for when you've mastered them then expand on them,forms could add to your tool box

[Eric Daniel]

some or most forms display multiple attacks, that could help you flow in a street situation,some if not all teach you to hone your breath control,flexability etc, importantly forms whenpracticed helps biuld your awareness. so keep the forms for when you've mastered them then expand on them,forms could add to your tool boxThis is a great point. What kind of things can forms add to your tool box?

[Flying Crane]

This is a great point. What kind of things can forms add to your tool box?
Often, forms contain applications that are very obvious. But in addition, they often contain more subtle applications that are less obvious. If you study them closely, you may discover some things you didn't realize were there. I think this vagueness is at least partially responsible for why many people don't like forms. In our Western society and culture, we are accustomed to a learning environment in which all the information is handed to us on a silver platter, for easy taking. Forms can contain a lot of information that isn't always obvious, and you need to struggle with them in order to uncover what is inside. It can be frustrating, but if you give forms the attention they deserve, it can also be very rewarding.

[MJS]

This is a great point. What kind of things can forms add to your tool box?

Many things can be learned. This is the reason why its so very important to understand what the moves in the form are for. Stances, locks, throws, sweeps, blocks while transitioning from one move to the next...these are just a few things that can be learned.

Mike

[Eric Daniel]

Thats great, Everyone should analyze their forms and see what kind of applications they come up with!

[Kenpo_man]

I dunno. A person could say that Kenpo has about 150 of them--all very short. It's a matter of perspective, perhaps.
lol. I suppose that is true.

[Kenpo_man]

[quote=Kenpo_man]Forms are fun to do and look nice as some have already said but they do not include even close to enough of the dynamics of combat to properly prepare a person for combat. There are no feints, no contact (except for the rare two person form which, again, lacks feints) and no fear of being hit. Also, what about grappling. Grappling is an important factor for combat yet I've never seen a grappling art with a form to practice, only techniques.

Are you sure there is no form in grappling? Do you do rolls? I am sure there is "form" to rolling you just have to analyze it. When you do or at least first learn a takedown or throw don't you go step by step? That can be a form ( A really strange one but still a form.) I may be going over the edge a little bit but isn't there "form" to everything we do in life? There can be "form" when you are driving, cooking, cleaning etc.

Again, I suppose, but I was thinking more along the lines of kata. The series of prearranged movements, generally named(e.g. "pinan shodan" or "panther set").