The company you keep

[Tgace]

Instructor-Student Commonalities in the Martial Arts: Leadership Traits and Similarities (http://faculty.mckendree.edu/scholars/summer2005/mcgee.htm)

An interesting study about the teacher/student relationship in the martial arts and "leadership".




In a rigid social hierarchy, like martial arts, it would make sense that people would become more similar as a function of time, because everyone’s situational experience is relatively the same within the dojo. However, this hypothesis is not supported by Sylvia and Pindur (1978). Their findings suggest state that socialization takes place early and is independent of time and rank.

Martial arts schools are hierarchal, indoctrination-like social systems. Because of their rigidity, participants share the same experiences. Also, during this same time, modeling of super-ordinate positions occurs. These in-class experiences and modeling yield similar personalities among members. These similar personalities contain leadership qualities, such as a high need for cognition, strong locus of control, and strong motivation. Due to the subjective and reflexive nature of evaluation, those who have leadership qualities most similar to their instructors will be promoted to the next rank. Those who lack leadership qualities similar to their instructor will not be promoted. Not being promoted has nothing to do with being liked by the instructor, but not being qualified by displaying the attitude of one who is to be promoted to a higher rank. Or, because of this lack of attitude similarity as perceived by the student, there are differences in values that cause him or her to withdraw from classes. Hence, time "weeds out" those who are dissimilar from their instructor.

[Tgace]

So for those instructors out there. Do you see a strong similarity between your instructor and yourself?

[Sarah]

Im not an instructor, but that is SO true!

[Tgace]

So if the instructor is an *******. Is it safe to assume that his senior students are *******s too?

[Eternal Beginner]

So if the instructor is an *******. Is it safe to assume that his senior students are *******s too?
Unfortunately, I have noticed this to be true. I have not yet seen a really bad instructor (bad being defined as any one of or all of - immaturity, temper, ego, lack of knowledge, misrepresentation and a plethora of other characteristics) retain quality people under his/her tutelage.

Like minds seem to find eachother and reinforce good, or bad, behaviour.

[Sapper6]

So if the instructor is an *******. Is it safe to assume that his senior students are *******s too?

oh no. can it be true? of course. is it true all the time? absolutely not. it's up to student to determine what he learns from his instructor, and it certainly doesn't have to be personality.

i could mention some names that prove my theory correct, especially in the kenpo world, but i'll refrain.

[Marginal]

Instructor-Student Commonalities in the Martial Arts: Leadership Traits and Similarities (http://faculty.mckendree.edu/scholars/summer2005/mcgee.htm)

An interesting study about the teacher/student relationship in the martial arts and "leadership".

[/size]
Doesn't strike me as an impartial study.

[Tgace]

I would also have to guess that senior students that turn into instructors are intended (in some way) to be "representative" of the art/school by the person who promoted them. There seems to be a connection there somewhere.

[Gemini]

From my own experience, I would have to agree with the study in general. To Sapper's point, I'd say yes, there would be exceptions to the rule, but there always is. By and large, I think it's accurate.

[Tgace]

There HAS to be some similarity to cult behavior within all this too IMO.

[Tgace]

Here's an interesting tangent from this topic with some relevance.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/sanity.htm


In the Continuum section we said: Or, someone who has bought into the dysfunctional person's world view. One must take pause and consider the significance of this concept. Why? Well, putting it into totally unscientific terms: A major motivation of dysfunctional person is to get you to buy into/support their reality.

Until you realize this you won't realize how persistent a dysfunctional person can be in achieving this goal. And that means you will be vulnerable to being manipulated. A dysfunctional people can be like the Pied Piper. They can lead you down a path where their particular distortion of reality becomes not only acceptable, but normal. This is to say, through constant pressure you gradually come to accept the behavior as the way things are. In more extreme cases, you can end up replacing your "reality" with theirs and changing your standards of acceptable behavior .

There are all kinds of different reasons for this. If you believe the same thing, they aren't crazy. If you believe them, then they have influence over you. If they can make you miserable too, then it isn't their fault that they are miserable. If they can tear you down, they can build themselves up. If you enable their behavior, they have carte blanche for it. If you believe the same thing it means they are "right." If you accept that you have to put up with them acting that way, it is okay for them to act out. If you blow up at them, it proves that they are victims of a horrible world. If you do this, they are justified to do that. If they can control you, you can't hurt them, etc., etc., etc.. The list of possible motivations to get you to buy into their reality is endless. And the probability that there are several of these motives going on at once, really mucks up trying to get a clear idea of what is going on. But the long and short of it is they want you to play their game.

[Jelik]

Interesting... very interesting....

[Tgace]

IMO the ultimate point is to be VERY AWARE of the type of persons that you associate with. If your instructor is a decent person (at least under his MA instructor hat) and a good and honorable role model, this phenomena could be a good thing.

[Jelik]

There is an interesting philosophy / quote that goes something like: "Show me who you spend your time with now, and i will show you your future"

[Grenadier]

Sometimes students will, indeed, become more like their teachers, and sometimes they might actually be motivated to become different. There's simply no guarantee how one might turn out, regardless of how well you know someone.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm going to give a bit of history, that can show this.

Many of the folks here remember the name of Hanshi Robert A. Trias. He was a man of good character, and given his successes in the martial arts, and founding the Shuri-Ryu (aka Shorei-Ryu) style, he was certainly had to be doing the right things.

Trias had a very promising student by the name of John Keehan, who seemed like a normal guy, if I am not mistaken. Keehan had been a pillar in the USKA, and had produced a good number of black belts as well.

Then one day, Keehan decided to do something rather, shall we say, unorthodox, changing his name to Juan Raphael Dante (aka "Count Dante"), advertising in comic books as "The World's Deadliest Man" (or something like that), and causing a lot of trouble with other dojos. I won't bore you with the further details of this sad tale, since it's probably already well-documented in several places. Simply put, when I look at the multitude of excellent yudansha that Trias produced, I wouldn't normally expect there to be someone of this nature amongst that crowd.

The above example just shows, that even some of the best teachers can produce a bad apple.

[Andrew Green]

So for those instructors out there. Do you see a strong similarity between your instructor and yourself?
Too some extent, but not always. Sometimes you get students that are... well... nuts. Usually they leave on there own, but sometimes need to be pointed to the door.

[arnisador]

So if the instructor is an *******. Is it safe to assume that his senior students are *******s too?
Well, that seems to often be the case.

But:
"Martial arts schools are hierarchal, indoctrination-like social systems."

This isn't true of all schools!

[Rich Parsons]

So if the instructor is an *******. Is it safe to assume that his senior students are *******s too?


Maybe . . .


It depends . . .


If a person is looking for followers then maybe a certain typew of person will stick around.

If a person is looking for serious students then maybe a totally different type of person will stick around.

Yet, just because a student or the instructor are *Fill in the Blank*, this does not mean that the other is automatically.

Is it possible? Yes it is.

I am similiar to my instructor in Balintawak. We both are Engineers. Yet, no one else I know of is an Engineer who studies with him. He is unassuming, and quiet, and not looking for the spot light. Yet this does not mean that all of his students are the same. The same of Anciong Bacon, some of his students liked to create templates, and yet Anciong did not. A difference in teaching methods, other of his students liked to see "Blood", while he would not mind seeing blood if the situation called for it, but not just because people were training.

Just because the train together does not mean they are the same. The personalities in the club I train in Flint, I am very unique as are many of the others. Some have Military service, others do not. Some have been or are Police some are not. Some are Mechanics, some were line workers, and some are other professions.

Now, if the person is an *Fill in the Blank*, and you stay, there must be a reason why, either you are similiar or you find value in the training, or your patience is very good and/or there is no other place to train.

Just my experience.

[arnisador]

I think this is the right reason for the phenomenon...those who disagree tend ti leave; those with simialr ideas tend to stay.

[Andrew Green]

Well, that seems to often be the case.

But:
"Martial arts schools are hierarchal, indoctrination-like social systems."

This isn't true of all schools!


It is of those that attended by students that want that ;)

Some people need a pecking order, makes them feel big to have people under them. They end up instructors eventually and end up with students that need a pecking order. So it's right back to the question ;)

[RickRed]

Well, that seems to often be the case.

But:
"Martial arts schools are hierarchal, indoctrination-like social systems."

This isn't true of all schools!


Actually it is. It just isn't as formal in some schools.

There is a pecking order, there is required knowledge of rituals and drills/techniques, there is the social 'rites' that mark your progress to the inner circle.

In every school there is the 'head instructor' that dolls out instructions to lower ranking instructors that send it down to lowers and students and peons.

Some arts are very formal: Like Trad Karate or TKD.

While other arts are less formal: MMA programs that base pecking order on wins/losses and not 'ranking' like belts and uniforms. Boxing schools.

[Navarre]

I believe that each person around whom we spend a large amount of time influences our perceptions in some way. Certainly there is a "group mentality" that is fostered in any class although all good ones promote individuality as well.

When I was a child I was actively disliked by those who raised me. Twenty years of that shaped my perception of myself into something I work daily to disbelieve. Much of my time as a child was therefore spent alone so I became acutely aware of what is going on in my inner thoughts.

My primary positive influence prior to martial arts was, believe it or not, comic books. I was drawn to those heroes who stood firmly on their principles despite great odds. When many children from bad homes turn to drugs and crime, I instead was sustained by the belief that I could be more if I only persevered and held to honorable actions.

Thus, when I had the opportunity to learn martial arts at the age of 15 I found a "society" that encouraged the same beliefs. My sensei was an adult example of the person I was trying to become. Therefore, his class suited me well.

He had told me upon one occasion that I was the best student he'd ever had. Was that because I was already like him, because I fit well within his own system, or did I have something intrinsic that made me predispositioned for martial arts (at least as he perceived it)?

So, after about 10 years in his system I relocated for grad school and (with no local schools in my style) began a new style. This instructor has amazing techniques but his approach to the philosophy of martial arts is much different. He takes a "get them before they get you" approach that is has little problem with an aggression and pain.

I did not agree with his philosophy (and still don't) but his techniques were so impressive that I stayed at the school. He welcomed me in and in short time I was a steadfast member of the class.

I have been well respected there throughout my 12 years of training with him. I have never waivered on my personal philosophy nor approach to martial arts. Some students in the class have had views similar to mine, many closer to his. I have seen many students come and go in both systems. I hold one of the highest ranks in the second style and am still viewed as a welcome addition to its roster.

My second sensei told me on a few occasions that I am one of the finest students he has trained in 40 years and hopes that I will continue a school for him, maybe even be the representative for the entire organization, after his passing. Giving myself the benefit of the doubt based on his words, it seems to me that one can indeed rise high and succeed in a group even if that person's philosophy is quite different from the majority and its leader.

I think that martial arts is different than most other closed organizations because of the powerful tenets of individuality and respect upon which the Art is built. The military rewards those who follow orders the best and achieve the results of the entire collective. Sports like football are the same. If you can't adapt to the collective's mentality then you don't belong and don't succeed.

But the Art is by its very nature created to reward those who set and achieve their own goals guided by the structure of the group. Therefore, I believe that one can succeed in any martial arts organization and "fit it" as long as the individuals within that group respect each other as they should.

[mantis]

i used to get "tortured" and sometimes beaten up by my master in country X.. but now if I am to teach in the US i cannot touch no body.. in fact i will probably get sued if i make someone do an extra 10 push-ups!
my master didnt take money, so he only taught those who are serious.. but here you have to pay rent for the studio so you better accept 'any' student!

[MA-Caver]

When I instruct anyone in anything, I generally use the same methods but use my own style of teaching because it's what I'm comfortable with. I'm comfortable in being me. Thus I will teach/tutor/instruct in what I know but do it with my own brand of imparting information.
I dunno if I'm a type A personality or what but it would seem logical that a type B personality would be more likely to assume the characteristics of their (long-time) instructor while a type A may do what I do and use the same methods (because ...if they're smart... they see that they work) or principals with their chosen art.

[beauty_in_the_sai]

I don't think I'm like my instructor, and he gave me my black belt! I don't teach others the same way, and he's alot more strict than I am. Don't get me wrong, he was cool. His strictness was sometimes what drove me into stuff I thought I couldn't do (like beating up a 3rd degree at a tourny the first day after I got my 1st dan. I was scared to death till I heard my instructor yell at me. Gives you somewhat of an adrenaline rush). But anyway, our personalities and the way we run things is somewhat different, and he never did try to weed me out.

Becky

[Bester]

I'm nothing like my instructor. He's a 2 fisted beer drinker, I hardly touch the stuff. He chain smokes while teaching, I wear a gasmask when on his floor.

I do however know others who are much like their instructor.

[mantis]

Instructor-Student Commonalities in the Martial Arts: Leadership Traits and Similarities (http://faculty.mckendree.edu/scholars/summer2005/mcgee.htm)

An interesting study about the teacher/student relationship in the martial arts and "leadership".

[/size] only in a sense that we're both asians!
i see similarities between me and martial artists in movies more than my instructor. unfortunately

[Phoenix44]

We have about 10 instructors, mostly part time, at our school. All of us have trained with Sensei since the beginning of our respective martial arts careers. The age range is 21-50; male, female; single, married, divorced; some have kids, some don't; white collar professionals, laborers, technicians, artists; Jews, Christians, pagans. Shodan to Godan.

We are alike in our perseverance and dedication to the art, and we're all good friends, but similar personalities? Heck no!

[Tgace]

There is an interesting philosophy / quote that goes something like: "Show me who you spend your time with now, and i will show you your future"
yep.