You know who you are!;)

ttt for Kyle, er, um, I mean for any Nasty abusive instructors who shall remain nameless!

Is this an actual thread???



Despair Bear

Um, yeah...

<puts on moderator hat>

Please have or state some topic for this thread. There is a topic suggested in the thread title, but so far the posts have been pretty lacking in content.

<removes moderator hat>

Cthulhu

Okay Mr. MODERATOR -

I confess, the whole purpose of this thread was to harrass, embarrass and otherwise humiliate my heartless BJJ teacher. However, I am unable to delete the first thread and thus, flush the whole topic.

Please do the honors for me. :asian:

You have to admit, your post was pretty nonsensical to all but the intended recipient. You could have provided a background anecdote or something to share with the rest of us so we could also partake in the humiliation :D

If you still would like the thread to be nuked, or if no one else has anything further to add to the matter, then I'll dunk it in a day or so.

Cthulhu

Yes they exist. Some have even said that mine is uneccessarily that way although I would disgaree with them. I have spoken with my instructor and have agreed to what level of physical our training is at. I could tell you about the bloody lips, the chipped teeth, the black eyes but then I'd have to tell you about the times I have smacked him in the groin, re-arranged his nose etc. Dot has seen the level we work at. But it's not always like that. I've seen Jaybacca tailor the level of his instructing to the level of the student he works with.

I have seen instructors beat up, (and that is essentially what they do) their students. What really irks me is when they do so and don't give that student a chance to work back on them. (Yeah, you're real tough to slap someone around and then NOT take it back) Don't think we don't see it.

There are instructors out there who are tough and then there are those who are abusive. Not just physically either. Some people think that opening a school makes them king of the hill. To some point it does but that falls far short of sexual abuse, physical abuse, mental abuse. There is a huge difference between pushing students to excel and being abusive.

What do I say? I say call them on it if you see something that looks abusive. :hammer: Being quiet is just the same as condoning it.
:soapbox:

WOW Gou -

I was just goofing around for the benefit of the other guys in my club, but you just went and started a serious discussion! DAMN you intellectuals! :cuss:

Maybe I've just been lucky, but the handful of people I've trained with are first-class.

When you mention sexual abuse, that's a tough topic in martial arts! Obviously, you can REALLY damage someone's reputation with an accusation like that, in a business that relies on children so much. I heard some whispers (well, a little more than whispers really) about an instructor once, and I got all of those feelings of distaste that you might expect. On the other hand, I've also heard some total BS accusations about some people that I really respect.

I've seen that a few states have tried to curb sexual abuse among martial arts instructors by licensing them. Honestly, I don't have a problem with some kind of criminal background check for commercial school owners. The danger of course is that you get some committee with Renegade in charge, and he refuses to license any of those TKD instructors. Anyone here teach in a state where a license is required?

P.S. My apologies to D-Bear, and anyone else that felt left out by my inside joke. :o

The worst part is that people do this crap and get away with it. I have no problem with allegations being damaging because I know of a guy who was touching his kids and he's still teaching!!!! He's been convicted even. He runs his schools by only teaching his school teachers and having them run his schools. He's not allowed near kids I believe. You can check out his school system at http://www.kanzenkenpo.com/ Don't let anyone tell you different, the guy is convicted. He's not even appealing his conviction, just the type sentence. The guy was loved in the community and you can see the accolades he got but he's a dink toucher.

But then you have the opposite and have people making false accusations. That's just as bad and bullsh*t too because it's an abuse of the legal system. The martial arts often brings it fair share of people to study it because they have issues. Sadly you get people slopping their PC into the dojo and when things don't go their way they tend to get underhanded and they don't care whom they affect.

I tell people who go looking for a Martial Art for their kids to ask if the school will provide a legal criminal background check. I tell them to look and ask for lineage lines and certificates. See if they belong to a national organization, and ask for the number to contact them. It blows my mind away that we ask so much of people dealing with our kids and yet when we see someone with a black belt we assume they'll be ok with kids.


:soapbox:

That's good advice Gou! But very few people ever think of it.

Too many people think because some guy has an X degree black belt he's suddenly of above average moral character. The truth is that martial arts does not improve character like people think.

In regards to what Gou was saying about the way he and Jaybacca train. There is always a time and a place to train vigorously and then there are times to train like mad men. Jaybacca and Gou have the knowledge and skill to be a little "intense" at times.

I actually admire their ability to GO FOR IT. I consider it the best way to actually really learn what it's could be like to have to defend yourself in the real world. I'm not saying to train like that all the time but to actually see if you have the reaction time should the need arise.

There of course are the instructors that seem to think that you need to be injured, in some form, at the end of a class. I think this demoralises the majority of students (except Gou of course ;) who's too pigheaded ..... err I mean stubborn to give up). What student wants to show up at work with a black eye or a limp or a tenserband on the wrist. There is such a range of instructors out there, from the ones that have a "No Contact" rule, where the students learn the moves but never use them against an opponent, to the other extreme I was speaking about earlier. An instructor has to find a middle ground to teach the student how to truly defend oneself but without scaring his/her students away. I have no doubt in Jaybacca's ability to do just that, he can train hard with the ones that know how, but with students like myself, take it back some knotches so I/we can learn. (that should be worth a free class eh? ;) )

I look forward to a time when I too can "bang" with the best of them, being confident in my ability to defend myself and defend those I care about.

Plus being able to kick Gou's ass around the mat once in a while would be kinda kewl to. :D

Dot

We got good Mods here....Nice catch there Cthulhu ....and of course Gou who found a good way to use a well, 'empty' thread to get a serious point out.

Good job folks... Info like this needs to be out there so people know the truth and can find quality instruction.

My instructor has the amazing ability to spar at different belt levels. For example, when working with me, he'd tell me he would spar like a yellow belt, and sure enough, he'd spar like the yellow belts in the class. He'd then go up the ranks, and back down again if need be. This way, if someone of one rank didn't have a person of similar rank to work with, he'd spar with them at their level, actually enabling them to get some hits in. Of course, when he got to us higher ranked people, he'd 'kick it up a notch' and pound us around some.

I've seen some people put students through bizarre exercises for workouts that, while they were incredibly painful and difficult to do, they had absolutely no physical benefit. My instructor would always let students know what a particular exercise would develop. If a student was having difficulty, he'd change the tempo or the exercise, or discretely stop the exercise and go into lecture mode, allowing us to rest.

Of course, I always had the problem of not knowing when to quit, especially when grappling. More than once, I've passed out in class because I knew I'd break out of that headlock eventually...zzzzzzz. That, or I'd keep fighting an arm bar or something a bit longer than I should and hurt the joint. I'm a bit more careful with that, nowadays, having premanently tweaked most of my joints. However, I still have trouble knowing when to quit during workouts, pushing myself so much that I nearly pass out. Kind of embarassing.

As far as physical abuse goes, and this isn't just for martial arts, if something is causing undo pain, or just doesn't feel right, STOP. If you have one of those instructors who tells you to suck it up and 'eat the pain', tell him to eat his own @$$. Then find another school with an instructor who knows how to train people. Don't be afraid to speak up if you think something isn't right.

Cthulhu

"Intense?"
"Pig headed?"
"Stubborn?"
You're in cahoots with my wife!!!
:cuss:

Originally posted by GouRonin
The truth is that martial arts does not improve character like people think.

Martial arts certainly does improve character, and this is one thing that differentiates a true martial art from a fighting system. A martial art is effective in the battle to improve oneself as well as in the battle against others. But one must have some character to begin with if this is to work.

I'm sure we ..... I mean I have no idea what you are talking about!! :angel: Everyone knows you are irresitable Gou :ladysman:

Seriously though, I admire what you, Jaybacca, Rob, Dusty and the others can do. Your ability to adapt to changing situations and conditions. That's what I believe is the ultimate goal of any martial artist. To take the give situation and use it to your advantage

It is a credit to your's and the others, instructors and their abilities to teach kenpo, and other forms of martial arts. Bravo to all the instructors out there that teach because they want to spread the art first, not just to make money.

dot :wavey:

I do not think that martial arts improve character. I think that is one of the greatest fallicies perpetrated by the martial arts community. Many arts have seen god awful things go on, Arnis itself is going through a horrible time at the moment. I spoke before of Joe Foster the dewey toucher. The tai chi dudes we've been talking about. These are examples of poor character.

Character is developed by the experiences one lives. One takes these experiences and makes them into what one wants. Putting someone into a martial art will NOT make them a better person in itself. It is the passing on of the teacher's experiences and the use of the practitioner that shapes the character.

In short, you take what you get and you make it what you want. The avenues are there for better character but you can get the same from planting gardens.

:soapbox:

I think its a matter of perspective....and the individual..

take a real SOB!...teach him the ins and outs of a various martial art, and what do you end up with? A highly trained SOB.

Is it possible that along the way, he will "see the light"? Maybe. Maybe not.

A "good" person will find the deeper meanings, and grow from them, thereby developing "good" character.

An "evil" person will use his new knowledge for "wrong" and develop a "darker" character.

It depends on how you look at it.

"Faster it is, yes...once you start down the Dark path, forever own your soul it will" - Yoda. :asian:

I'm not too worried about being here...it just makes it easier to sneak up on people.
:rolleyes:

The benefits a person gains in the study of martial arts all comes down to that individual. Since everybody is different, the benefits gained will be different for each person.

I was going to say that an exception would be physical fitness; that all MA practitioners will have improved physical fitness. However, that won't always be the case as every class invariably has at least one slacker, who never really tries. Thankfully, they usually don't last long.

Personally, I gained a bit of control over my quick temper. This wasn't concious; it just happened. I definitely don't see myself as 'enlightened' or a 'better human being'. In fact, I'm just as bad a misanthrope as I was before taking up MA seriously, if not worse.

Then you have the people who just want to learn how to fight. My instructor told me of one fella who didn't want to do anything but spar. He'd spend his weekends getting into fights. He didn't really work on forms or techniques. His time as a brown belt was longer than some black belts' entire time at the school. Clearly, martial arts practice did not make him a better person. A better fighter, maybe, but not a better person.

I think martial arts practice has the potential of making someone a 'better person'. However, it all comes down to the person as to whether or not that actually happens.

Ack. Babbling again.

Cthulhu

Greetings all,
I think abuse in the dojo comes down to willingness. Is a student willing to train in a manner that produces physical harm? Is a student willing to be screamed at in the name of disciplin? If that is the level of trainng the student seeks out then it is not abuse it is trainng. But when a new student walks into a dojo and gets beat-up by the teacher to show him/her that they know nothing that is assault time to call the cops.



Despair Bear

I agree with Despairbear...a perfect example is what happened with many Chung Moo Do schools in the early- to mid-nineties. Those students suffered all manner of physical and mental abuse, much of done to extort more money from said students. Some were outright attacked and I've heard of at least one account where a student was hospitalized after doing a series of punitive exercises. The worst part is, many of these students were so brainwashed, they didn't leave the system.

If you want to hear some true horror stories, go to Google groups and look up the old posts on CMD. Not pretty. Not pretty at all.

Cthulhu

I agree some has to be on Gou 's wife side.

But seriously. I know of abusive instructors and have a few of them myself. I got my nose busted 3 times in 3 months sparring with an instructor, and when I busted his I did more push ups than anyone in the school had ever seen.

I have even had people try to be abusive when they were working for me, they liked to hit a little too hard when sparring, or slam the student too hard during a technique. They great thing was there class was always the after the beginners that they were mean too, and I would show them what it is like to be abused.

People like Jaybaca, and Gou who work together on a regualr basis no eachothers threshhold and like to push that limit on a regular basis. That can be good, but they are not malicious in their training. I have seen a Jaybaca class, it is not for the thin skinned out of shape kenpo guys like me, but they do give me something to shoot for.

A five year old grandson of a friend of mine begged to be taken to a local TKD school. He had watched classes through the window and was hooked. (until he went to class the first time.)

If the kids did not perform a technique properly the first time or were not paying attention the instructor verbally berated those kids. Calling them "stupid and worthless, etc..." What I found to be the worst though was that the parents didn't stand up for their own kids.

This kid had banged sticks with me in the past, and now is so soured on the Martial Arts that he won't even practice with me.

Ick. Instructors like that idiot should be nailed for abuse.

Fabricate some excuse for the boy to be at your classes. Maybe watching a few classes with quality instruction, he'll get over his bad experience.

Cthulhu

I have worked out with a few instructors that many found to be over abusive in their sparring and in the class in general. However I went into these clases knowing the instructors reputation. The end reslut I got one heck of a learning experence and stayes long enough to find out that what appeard to be overly arsh was in reality their way of finding out who realy wanted to learn and to aquaint the student with pain and how to get past it.
They only wanted the best and they only kept the ones who would not give under a little pain. They taught survival not sport However if they thought a student teacher was picking on someone or that anything was questonable in the persons ethics Well woe be to that person they really learned pain
On the sexual abuse issue. I knew of one instructor whom I had always heard made passes at almost every female in his classses. Some stayed some went. For some reason no one ever complained to the police. Don't even know of a instance of a husband or boyfriend "takeing him out".The man wasn't that great at what he taught. alway wonder why he survived.
Shadow

There was a Martial Art Instructor that was in Missouri years ago that was convicted and went to prison for raping a 12 year old girl in the dojo.He is now out and teaching in the State of Washington he is a Master.What bothers me about this is the guy was simply allowed to move after he got out of prison and now has a very successful chain of schools in another state do you think he learned his lesson?

Given what usually happens to people like that in prison.... we can only hope so.

Personally, I think those type of predators should be permanently 'fixed'...but thats just my opinion.

:asian:

I could not agree more they need to be "fixed" surgically so that they could no longer experience that type of feeling anymore.I truly hope he was taken care of in prison but I seriously doubt that he was.The prison system here in Missouri protects these perverts and only puts them with their own kind.Beacuse they have "rights" you know.