forms??? my kenpo rant!

[cfr]

Well now that I know it works...
Anyways, here is my meager martial arts experiece:

6 months in a guys garage. All one on one lessons. Involved kickboxing, brazillian jui jutsu, jap jui jutsu, and judo. Very intense. Very untraditional. He moved away or I would still be there.

5 months of Hapkido. I liked the style itself. But it is a very plush, catering to preppies, not very intense school. (no, not even to the upper belts) I left due to its babying of students.

3 months Kenpo. At my particular Kenpo school, what originally attracted me was the intensity. The owner got her black belt under John Conway Sr. from Panorama City, Ca. a long time ago. She has trined with Ed Parker as well. She currently trains under Dan Inosanto in JKD. (I think thats it) The other head instructor used to do real fighting back before there were rules. (eye gouging, etc.) They also incorporate boxing and Wing Chun into the mix. I left due to a foot injury that Im still recovering from.

My question, and Im sure this ones been beat to death already, is the purpose of forms. I love the boxing drills we do. I really dig the Wing Chun. The Kenpo techniques are cool. But the forms, talk about boring. Oh my God, how do you guys do it? Whats the point? The owner said its to practice when Im alone. But Ive got lots of other stuff I could practice when Im alone. I see it this way, for me to take one hour a week (which probably isnt enough) to practice forms is 52 hours a year. I sure could learn alot of valuable fighting in that kind of time. I dont think the people with these kind of credentials would steer me wrong, but I dont get it. I should probably clarify, Im only interested in self defense. I dont care about tradition. As far as Im concerned, everything changes for a reason. Im not really interested in upholding pure values, learning self confidence, becoming a better me, or anything like that. I like to learn to fight. I am completely non violent and will only use this stuff if I have to. I also have no desire to ever be in a UFC or anything like that. I just love training except when it comes to forms.
I will probably be off due to my foot for another month or two, at which point I may go back to this school. Again, I like the school, definately like the instructors, like the style. But the forms I see as completely pointless. If I had no desire to return, I wouldnt be asking these questions.
Whats your take on forms???
Thankss in advance.

[Nightingale]

www.kenpohands.com

nuff said.

[Bob Hubbard]

I've noticed alot of the techniques and how they relate buried in the Kenpo forms.

[Blindside]

Hi cfr,

Did you do the forms from your Wing Chun? Did you know it had any?

In its simplest application forms are a practice of your basics. While I do plenty of bagwork and shadow boxing, I simply enjoy practicing my basics by practicing a form. It also forces you to things that you might not ordinarily do and this may help you recognize faults in those basics.

That is just a starting point, good luck.

Lamont

[cfr]

Wing Cun is really only done once a week at my school. The head instructor has basically
taken what she likes from it and scrapped the rest. So to answer you, no, we dont do WC
forms and no, I didnt know there were any.

[arnisador]

Check out the Wing Chun (http://www.martialtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=63) forum for more info. on WC. There are three empty hand forms, a wooden dummy form, a staff form, and a butterfly swords form in most WC systems.

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by cfr

Wing Cun is really only done once a week at my school. The head instructor has basically
taken what she likes from it and scrapped the rest. So to answer you, no, we dont do WC
forms and no, I didnt know there were any.

Then, and hopefully I don't sound to pompous, you are missing the real essence of Wing Chun. It is laid out, effectively, in three very useful sets or forms. And you probably really aren't learning Wing Chun, if someone is only teaching the parts they like. You are learning a limited number of techniques that may or may not work if they aren't taken or taught in context.

All of the Chinese Arts that I am familiar with are steeped in form, and in most systems, the forms are the basis of the system and without them to teach the esoteric perspectives or aspects of the systems, you don't really have a system. You, unfortunately, have a limited number of tricks.

I know that many folks will throw Jeet Kune Do at me immediately. That is true, but JKD is not a system per se. That would be by Bruce Lee's own words.

So ... For what it's worth ... I stand by what I said.

...
...
...

Well, I thunk you was askin' fer opinions! :lol: :lol: :lol;

Dan

[Goldendragon7]

Patience and dicipline are two important issues.... you seem to be the type that could utilize these great attributes.

:asian:

[cfr]

As mentioned earlier, Im not a violent person. I have certain spiritual beleifs that I
learn both patience and discipline from. However, when I go to a MA school, I want to learn
to fight. Do forms do this in your opinion? I am open to learning something about them
which I have never thought of. If I wasnt, I wouldnt bother with this post.

[Rob_Broad]

The forms only contains as much info as are willing to learn from them. If you look at them with a closed mind you will never see the value. The forms have many lessons that come up and bite you on the butt when you are least expecting it(meaning the hidden lesson will just appear one day).

You have taken classes in a diverse amount of arts, but how many of them have you actually studied. There is a lot of great info to be learned from any one style, but to be trying to combine so many things can be counter-productive. It took your instructors years to be able to blend styles so easily and sometimes instructors forget the lessons they learned to make them as good as they are. Study the forms, at this early of a stage you are still playing with the beginner material in the forms, don't overlook what you think you already know.

[fanged_seamus]

I haven't been involved in kenpo for long, but I've seen the value in forms. Here's my take on it (without sounding too preachy, I hope)....

Learning techniques is great, because you get to see the self-defense in action almost immediately. Learning basics (footwork, individual punches, kicks, and blocks, etc.) isn't much fun, but it's absolutely essential since the basics are the "foundation" for every single move and motion in kenpo.

And that leaves forms. Forms, at least to me, seems to link the two (techniques and basics) and make both better. Forms allow you to learn how to link techniques together, flowing from one into the next seamlessly. It ensures that you are synchronizing your motions for maximum effect. It gives you a chance to make sure you are moving with economy and ease.

In Ed Parker's "Infinite Insights" books, he lists some ridiculous number of principles and concepts that forms teach (the number is astounding). While an individual technique may teach some of those same things, no single technique teaches as much as a single form does. And that means that doing the forms is engraining principles and concepts into your motions BEFORE you may see it in a technique. And if your body already "knows" the principle, learning the technique becomes much easier.

I don't think kenpo is really kenpo unless you are practicing all three things -- basics, forms, and techniques. They all feed into each other and strengthen each other. If you take one away, you're not learning to move as fully as you could be.

Just my thoughts. Hope it helps you find some value in the forms.

Tad

[Seig]

I am not a big fan of forms. Having said that, I am going to defend them. One way to think of forms is as Moving Meditation. It gives you the opportunity to clear your mind of outside influences and allow you to feel the flow and rhythm of what you are doing. Forms teach many things; for example, they introduce new concepts that you may have not been taught. They prompt you to question what you are doing. They teach proper body alignment and stance transition. They teach you to defend or attack form different heights, widths and zones. They teach you to attack and defend simultaneously, often from different directions. That is what you can gain from them as a student. As an instructor, it allows me to see how you move in a set pattern to allow me to see if you are developing any bad habits that need my immediate attention. This is just the tip of the Ice Berg.:asian:

[Kenpo Wolf]

,,,but I still do them because I see them as a extension of the basics, combining the hands and the feet with the footwork, not to mention that some of the forms have built in techniques. Although the techniques are my favorite part of kenpo, it is only one part of the whole of kenpo.

[Goldendragon7]

Forms and sets are expressions of basic skills.....

E.P.

:asian:

[cdhall]

I love forms. Early on I was Good at forms, and Bad at fighting so that may have influenced me for a long time. I'm still better at forms I think.

Forms however offer a tremendous amount whether you are willing to learn it or not. Just tonight I analized a guys move, repeated what he said and did and he "saw a light" and thanked me. I just showed him what was already there.

Forms do give you something valuable to do when alone. They improve and test your strength, balance, flexibility, coordination, concentration, mental memory and muscle memory/reflexes (very important) among other things. They also traditionally serve as a "Notebook" offering you a convenient way to learn and practice basics that you will repeatedly employ in techniques and in fighting.

So, they teach you all this and you can get good at it by practicing alone.

You can NOT get highly proficient at fighting without a partner. No. You can't do it. So doing forms can let you simultaneously work on a lot of basics that will improve your fighting, but "shadowboxing" will only help you get better to a certain degree.

I know that on the tournament circuit there are people who fight and don't do forms and they are very good. I guarantee you that they fight a lot of Opponents to hone their skills and don't just do bag work, weight training or non-form and non-fighting drills.

So as a way to improve your overall skill when working by yourself, forms have tremendous value.

They also let your instructor see you move... teach you patience as you try to get them right, work your brain as you try to recall what you're doing... very often offer many, many hidden lessons, teach body alignment, continuity of motion, and a lot of other stuff that everyone has mentioned.

I hope this helps you in with your Journey. Did you see the Karate Kid? You sound a bit like Danielson complaining to Mr. Miyagi. No offense, but there is a parallel between his complaint and yours. Wax on, wax off... "when are you going to teach me something I can use?"

Frank Trejo was a really amazing fighter by the way. And he was also very good at forms.

:asian:

[satans.barber]

We don't do forms, but I'm only now realising that it's a bad idea. The main things that all belt levels are getting pulled on when out head instructor comes up to grade and stances, and changing from one good stance into another.

If you ask me, these are the 2 things that forms would seem to teach you better than anything else?

He actually produced these personal development sheets for everyone (well, everyone who was at the last grading, so I don't actually have one...) with things on that need lots of work; and on everyone's it says "Can't step back into a fighting stance" (as in from a stood normal stance).

Um, I can't help thinking if we'd been doing short form one from early belts like proper EPAK schools that wouldn't be so much of a problem....?

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. I've never been taught forms so I can only read them and watch video clips to arrive at my conclusions.

Ian.

[jeffkyle]

People get into Martial Arts for all sorts of different reasons. And everyone has their favorites, whether in which style, or what part of the style, etc they like. If you like the self-defense part of kenpo that is great, it will probably always be your strong part.
However, to be a good martial artist I believe you should practice all aspects of any art. Whether you like it or not. Each of them have something good in them that you can constantly learn from and develop yourself to be a better martial artist. But you have to "actively" practice and analyze them, more so that just going through the motions.

[brianhunter]

I understand your point of view I felt the same way for a long time. I used to hate forms....I loved the self defence techs hated the forms! I kept getting told BASICS BASICS BASICS.....and the forms are just that good reinforcement of basics..and without strong basics your self defence techniques will be weak! Self defence techniques are nothing more then series of basics applied to get a certain effect, Forms help greatly improve this. I used to hate short 2, short 1, long 1, but it comes to a point where it all ties together and your developing yourself the way Mr. Parker intended. Stances are where you develop your power and I think forms are great for developing your stance and transition from stances.

Forms seem to be a good point of study for me now....I used to hate it....it forces you to think about zones, defences, attacks, directional movements. Kinda have the whole universal pattern thing going on ;) Some people go through the motions of doing a form I want to be one of those goes who knows and shows whats "in" the form. They have an awsome purpose when you think about it, just give it an honest chance and listen to these guys who have been in it awhile it will make sense.

[jeffkyle]

He still doesn't like Short 2. :)

[Nightingale]

I've taught elementary school, and this forms/no forms argument is reminding me of a discussion I had with my third grade class.

Class: Teacher, why do we need to learn times tables? We're never going to use this!

Me: When you know them, it gets to the point that you use part of that information every single day. When you know them really well, it gets to the point that you use them without even realizing it.

They were then given a homework assignment to ask at least ten adults when and why they used multiplication. I would advise you to go to a tournament, a big one with lots of black belt competitors, and ask the competitors in the black belt forms division what forms have taught them.

I'm not a black belt, but some of the things forms have taught me are:

how to move. how to flow from one motion to the next.

how to balance stability and momentum. Don't move so fast you're off balance, but not so slowly that you're not effective.

good, solid stances. a form without a solid stance doesn't look good. A streetfight without a solid stance can land you on the ground or dead.

Breathing. You'd be surprised how many people on this planet don't breathe effectively. The average person uses about 10% of their lung capacity. Scripted kiahs and breaths in forms ensure that you breathe deeply and often, and it becomes natural. Techniques don't teach this as well, because they're so short.

Discipline. If you really want to know what discipline is, do long form two ten times in a row. Don't just walk through it. Go 100%, competition level, full out, all ten times. I'd be willing to bet that you'd get a better work out than if you spent the same amount of time sparring.

Focus. How to keep your mind on what you're doing. A good, well performed form takes significantly more mental focus than most daily activities. I've discovered now that I read faster, work harder, and am more efficient in other aspects of my life also.



When you're learning something, you don't always see the practical applications. You have to learn the concepts and theories first, before you begin to apply them... how many of us thought that Algebra, Geometry, and Physics were practical applications when we were in high school? not many, I'd guess... however, I used algebra to figure out my monthly budget, and geometry last time I bought furniture, and physics every time I play a game of pool.

Most things in karate have very obvious applications...

basics...how to throw a punch...gotta know that one, right?

techniques...what to do when someone throws a punch at you... have to know that too....

sparring...well, knowing how to fight is good, and its kinda fun...yeah, I'll keep doing that...

kata...um....huh?...what do I do with that?... you ask around, gather information, learn everything you can, and let it sit in your brain until your martial arts understanding has expanded enough that you can comprehend it. I'm just beginning to see the larger picture, but I will add that I have never met an extremely accomplished martial artist who doesn't think they have more to learn from their katas, even ones like short 1 that they have been doing for years.

respectfully,

Nightingale

[cfr]

People people people. So sorry to really stress out some of you by asking this question.
Apparently there are some really die hard forms fans out there. I thought I mentioned
I am open to learning something about them which I have never thought of. I really didnt
mean to show any disrespect or insult anybody. Just to find out if there is any value
to them which I am missing. Ive read lots of good ideas here and Im a little more open
minded now then before. One thing Im still kind of confused on though is this. How does
anyone explain all the styles which dont use forms. If you are saying something like "Im
a much better martial artist because of forms" , does that mean you would not be as good
of martial artist if Kenpo didnt use them??? Or if you were in another art which doesnt use
them??? Just a thought.

[Blindside]

Hi cfr,

I don't think you stressed all that many people out, it is that they have strong feelings on the subject.

I was thinking of the arts that do not have use forms/kata and many of them are martial sports (fencing, kendo, wrestling, BJJ, muay thai) but there are some martial arts (JKD, many FMA systems, that being said, some FMA instructors do place value in forms.)

Many of the systems that don't use forms use "live application" instead, such as doing their sport, or full contact sparring (JKD), use of sticks instead of blades for simulation (FMA.) Many modern systems use combinations of forms and live application (Judo, most Kenpo, Wing Chun). I think that if you are going to eliminate forms you must replace them with some other training methodology.

I honestly believe I could train a good Kenpoist without the use of forms, certainly nobody thinks Professor Chow's kenpo was poor because he didn't use forms. Who knows, this may be the arrogance of a mere 1st Black speaking.

Salute,

Lamont

[Rob_Broad]

I don't think anyone is stressed out because of the initial question, we are just passionate about the art we love. You are proabably looking at a century of training among the peple who posted in this thread, I know that between the Golden Dragon and myself there is over 50 yrs of training combined. Forms are an integral part of the art, and should never be overlooked.

As for styles that do not do any forms, that does make the practioners of that style any less effective or any less of a martial artist. It just means they are using different tools to accomplish the same job. But a style that originally has forms should not take them out, because that is where many of the lessons are hidden. Just imagine a boxer not learning to uppercut, would that person be lacking an important part of their training?

[kenpo3631]

No a bad question. It gets the brain working with an infinite hypothesis.

This is a forum for opinions and you said yours.

My feeling is this, regardless of the number of years one trains at Kenpo, if your instructor understands the Art...you will soon realize that the forms were Mr. Parkers "babies". They contain all of the opposites and reverses in the Art, plus numerous other concepts touched upon in other replies or that are forthcoming.

I personally have all the forms up to Long 6, and you know what, if I could just master one of them it would be Long Form 4....however I don't have several lifetimes so I guess I will keep on pluggin.:asian:

[RCastillo]

I came in too late to add my 2 cents. Thanks for waiting for me!

Ya bums!:soapbox:

[Nightingale]

well, Rich...

he who hesitates meditates...
in the horizontal position.

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

well, Rich...

he who hesitates meditates...
in the horizontal position.

Sounds like a plan, I better hit the hay!:o

[Seig]

Originally posted by RCastillo

I came in too late to add my 2 cents. Thanks for waiting for me!

Ya bums!:soapbox:
That's what ya get for nappin old timer!:soapbox:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Seig


That's what ya get for nappin old timer!:soapbox:

Gee, Thanks for your support! I think I'll line up in back of the class.:o

[Goldendragon7]

but not the ONLY tool.......... sure you can be trained without forms.... it all depends upon what it is that you are after. Many of us want a Martial "ART" which includes, expands or explains the definition of Martial. If you just want to spar then sure shadow boxing has a minor role but you need to spar......

All is found in your specific goals desired....

:asian:

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by cfr

. How does
anyone explain all the styles which dont use forms. If you are saying something like "Im
a much better martial artist because of forms" , does that mean you would not be as good
of martial artist if Kenpo didnt use them??? Or if you were in another art which doesnt use
them??? Just a thought.

the question really is why are forms not used in certain styles- as noted combat sports aren't form oriented since they rely on fewer techniques and are able to be executed with minimum injury risk to the practitoners. there simply isn't a need to have a form for boxing (beyond say shadow boxing), muay thai or gracie jiu jitsu.

in fact pure grappling styles have little use for forms- real resistance is the only way you can teach grappling skills.

some modern eclectic styles which are based on quick self defense skills are not looking to achieve anything more then drills to activate gross motors skills for common attacks.
the object here is to ingrain these skills in a short amount of time studying. there is no black belt or higher realm to obtain, no
need for internal strength training; the basics aren't overly scrutinized and general targets are emphasized (testicles, knees, eyes, throat) for effectiveness.

forms were developed as a method of training and study for both teacher and student alike dealing with the striking/kicking arts mainly. chi kung training also applies. essentially if stances, breathing, footwork, body alignment, are important to your art, the forms allow for correction by teacher and self correction by student as well.

there is something to note with kenpo forms- they were worked backwards- the original Chow Kenpo had no forms- the forms Parker developed with his chinese mentors in SF were made to absorbed the kenpo techniques. In chinese chaunfa and japanese karate- applications are pulled from forms. they don't have technique lists as you see in Kenpo- they have forms from whence technique application can be derived.

in some ways its understandable your position on forms- if you are doing the techniques in the air and on a body- what can stringing them together and doing them solo bring to the process. a fair question.

some have given you those answers already.

and there are more but it's a good start.

side note: arts that use forms/kata include

Indonesian Pentjak
Chinese Chaunfa
Indian Martial Arts
Polynesian Martial Arts (lua)
Japanese Karate

most of these arts were precursor systems that many modern masters used as the basis for their own newly created "no form" systems.


peace :asian:

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by jazkiljok



the question really is why are forms not used in certain styles- as noted combat sports aren't form oriented since they rely on fewer techniques and are able to be executed with minimum injury risk to the practitoners. there simply isn't a need to have a form for boxing (beyond say shadow boxing), muay thai or gracie jiu jitsu.

in fact pure grappling styles have little use for forms- real resistance is the only way you can teach grappling skills.

some modern eclectic styles which are based on quick self defense skills are not looking to achieve anything more then drills to activate gross motors skills for common attacks.
the object here is to ingrain these skills in a short amount of time studying. there is no black belt or higher realm to obtain, no
need for internal strength training; the basics aren't overly scrutinized and general targets are emphasized (testicles, knees, eyes, throat) for effectiveness.

forms were developed as a method of training and study for both teacher and student alike dealing with the striking/kicking arts mainly. chi kung training also applies. essentially if stances, breathing, footwork, body alignment, are important to your art, the forms allow for correction by teacher and self correction by student as well.

there is something to note with kenpo forms- they were worked backwards- the original Chow Kenpo had no forms- the forms Parker developed with his chinese mentors in SF were made to absorbed the kenpo techniques. In chinese chaunfa and japanese karate- applications are pulled from forms. they don't have technique lists as you see in Kenpo- they have forms from whence technique application can be derived.

in some ways its understandable your position on forms- if you are doing the techniques in the air and on a body- what can stringing them together and doing them solo bring to the process. a fair question.

some have given you those answers already.

and there are more but it's a good start.

side note: arts that use forms/kata include

Indonesian Pentjak
Chinese Chaunfa
Indian Martial Arts
Polynesian Martial Arts (lua)
Japanese Karate

most of these arts were precursor systems that many modern masters used as the basis for their own newly created "no form" systems.


peace :asian:



Learn something new every day! Well said man!

[Goldendragon7]

First off Chow did have forms..... I have seen a video clip of him competing with it.

In American Kenpo, Forms and Sets are expressions of Basic skills. As such they are divided into sections...... the first 4 forms are dictionaries....... short 3 and beyond are considered the encyclopedia and the sets are the appendices.

As to the "training" of these drills, remember we can practice either "SOLO" or with a "PARTNER OR PARTNERS". To just practice solo is to not achieve the full benefit of the drills. So it is obvious that you must expand your training to include partners to be able to add resistance and variation to the meanings thus more reality than just solo where you are in idealand and everything you do works.

:asian:

[Rainman]

Originally posted by jazkiljok



the question really is why are forms not used in certain styles- as noted combat sports aren't form oriented since they rely on fewer techniques and are able to be executed with minimum injury risk to the practitoners. there simply isn't a need to have a form for boxing (beyond say shadow boxing), muay thai or gracie jiu jitsu.

in fact pure grappling styles have little use for forms- real resistance is the only way you can teach grappling skills.



peace :asian:

two man set is a form- I believe I have seen a grappling equivilent from either gracie or machado or both. Chin na is grappling and it does have a form as well. So does eagle claw system- has a grapling form that is. As far as I understand, a form is just pre arranged movements and/or teks... meanings and so forth could fill a book.

:asian:

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

First off Chow did have forms..... I have seen a video clip of him competing with it.


:asian:

just not at the time he taught Mr. Parker. it is my understanding that the original forms that Ed Parker introduced were chinese (hun gar? ) which he got from his visits to the SF chinese masters - they did not come from Chow (correct me here otherwise).

Chow added forms later as he both changed the name of his system and his partnerships- as to the creation of those forms- well bill Chun jr. has his story. Castro his story. Kuoha his. Cerio had one too...

i simply concluded that they were not apart of his original kenpo karate which Ed Parker came to the mainland with.

ps- a vid with Chow in some competition? well, did he win? :)

also for rainman- read my post again- i don't make a blanket statement, cause it's a wide world- but in general i'll stand by my comments- chin na is the grappling component of the chinese arts- taught in all styles by those knowledgeable- it is not a style onto itself. i did say pure grappling systems- i.e. not focused on kicking or striking arts/ most schools of grappling (judo, wrestling, shootfighting) do not teach a "grappling" kata. bbj? haven't heard of or seen it yet- (bbj's please correct othewise.) also only know of a sword kata in aikido.

peace.

:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by jazkiljok

it is my understanding that the original forms that Ed Parker introduced were chinese (hun gar? ) which he got from his visits to the SF chinese masters

I have seen kenpo forms demonstarted and they certainly looked Chinese to me--down to the one finger salute behind the elbow.


but in general i'll stand by my comments- chin na is the grappling component of the chinese arts- taught in all styles by those knowledgeable- it is not a style onto itself. i did say pure grappling systems- i.e. not focused on kicking or striking arts/ most schools of grappling (judo, wrestling, shootfighting) do not teach a "grappling" kata. bbj? haven't heard of or seen it yet- (bbj's please correct othewise.) also only know of a sword kata in aikido.

I would agree about Chin Na (maybe not taught in all styles). Judo does have kata, as do some Japanese jujitsu styles. Apart from sword arts (iaido, kenjutsu) it's rare to see Japanese swordsmanship outside of aikido and ninjutsu.

[jazkiljok]

What the judoka call kata are two men sets with one being uke the other tori- they are essentially what we call doing "techniques" in kenpo- one man dummies the other whups butt. The point is you really got to throw, lock, etc to do these exercises- he’s not going fly in the air and fall without you having to move him- i.e. resistance. --(no aikido cracks please)

There aren’t any one man forms/kata- though I was told that Jigaro had some for his advanced ranks- design to teach….. well... kicking and striking. :shrug:

Perhaps I should have said regardless of style- the chinese frequently bounced around to who ever had certain knowledge and would simply add to there base style these grappling skills-just as they would learn weapons. Chin Na is almost always an aspect taught of some chaunfa/kung fu style- i.e Taichi, Praying Mantis, Shaolin, Full Process Color Dragon, etc... but i've yet to see anyone offer it solo.

:asian:

[Rainman]

Originally posted by jazkiljok



also for rainman- read my post again- i don't make a blanket statement, cause it's a wide world- but in general i'll stand by my comments- chin na is the grappling component of the chinese arts- taught in all styles by those knowledgeable- it is not a style onto itself. i did say pure grappling systems- i.e. not focused on kicking or striking arts/ most schools of grappling (judo, wrestling, shootfighting) do not teach a "grappling" kata. bbj? haven't heard of or seen it yet- (bbj's please correct othewise.) also only know of a sword kata in aikido.

peace.

:asian:

Probably arts with a competitive nature. I've seen chin na presented on its own (very rare) but mainly as a sub system within arts as you have said. My main point was that I have seen grappling forms that do exist... although more than likely they are very rare. Shootfighting allows puches and kicks, elbows and knees has roots in sumo, wrestling, muy tai, and judo. I think no punches to the head.

Had some lessons with an olympic judo coach- no striking- no kata but it never occured to me to ask about his thoughts on such. He was very knowledgable and someone I wish I would have stayed in contact with. Wrestling doesn't have submissions as far as I understand so while it is grappling it is (stand up as well) limited in scope. That may or may not detract from purity depending on what you are using as a point of reference.

Forms as a point- they exist where they do for a myriad of reasons- Pure is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. Grappling and striking can be one in the samething depending on how you interpret movement.



:asian: ;)