Are Yearly Contracts the Norm Now?

[bandit959]

Hey Folks;
Newbie to the group here, so I'm not sure if this belongs in this forum. If not, I apologize in advance and hope that teh moderators will move it to teh right place.

After a very long absence, I decided to get back into the martial arts once again. I've started the process of checking out schools and I'm finiding it *very* different than 15 years ago.

The major difference that I came across is about 75-80% of the schools I visited all now have contracts. You can't "pay as you go" on a monthly basis as my old school was. (This school isn't in operation. The instructor closed shop when he retired, and I have moved far from the area.) If you can't pay the cost for the year, they offer to finance the cost at a healthy percentage if you can't pay it all up front.

These were the exception rather than the rule back then and I would just look for a different school when I came across a contract school. But I can't seem to find anything else.

I've reached the point where I now call the school and ask about how they conduct business before I go in to see what it is like. I know that I shouldn't let something like that drive my decision, but the contract is not in my best interest.

I won't go into the details about why, but my quetsion to the group here is ...
Are these contract the norm now? Is it just a location thing?

BTW, I'm in the Boston area, just north of the city by about 10 miles.

Thanks for your thoghts!!!
- Rick

[dubljay]

First off welcome to the forum.

Yes it is sometimes hard to find a school that doesn't require a contract any more. I don't blame you for making sure how a school does business before commiting. I have never been fond of contracts, and avoid them as much as possible.

Good luck on finding a school to your liking.

Again welcome to the forum and happy posting.

-Josh

[arnisador]

Welcoem to the site!

Yearly contracts are, unfortunately, all too common. I won't sign them, but that limits my options.

I don't think it's an inherently unethical practice, but it has many down sides and is open to abuse.

See also this thread:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10098

[shesulsa]

Welcome to MartialTalk! I hope you find your stay here pleasant and interesting!

It's hard to find a commercial dojo who doesn't have contracts. The cost of doing business and the security of said business can be contingent upon contract sales. However, I'm not a huge fan of contracts.

I understand that many schools who operate in sessions have good success - usually 12-week sessions up to a certain rank, then longer sessions for more advanced ranks, or requiring so many 12 weeks sessions per rank, etcetera.

I'm with you - if I were starting over again I would NOT NOT NOT sign a contract. What happens if you reach brown belt and then finally realize "wow, this just is not for me?"

Teachers who charge by the month are likely to be renting space from a larger facility such as a gymnasium, fitness center or community center.

Consider speaking with the head instructor and asking:

1. Can I try out a couple of sessions first if I sign a waiver?

2. Can I purchase a short-term session before signing a long-term contract so I can be sure this is the style for me?

[Gemini]

Welcome to the forum.

Most schools that I know of have that are established businesses (as apposed to a rented space such as a gym or room somwhere) have contracts. Of those, most will have you sign yearly or offer savings if you sign something extented such as a black belt program. Getting out of such contracts can more often than not, be difficult.

I'm fortunate that in my school, though we have annual contracts, you can quit anytime you want with no penalty and there is no interest tacked on. It's only for budgeting purposes. Unfortunately, mine is the only school I know of like that.

Ask questions and Good luck with your search.

[bandit959]

Thanks for the welcome and the comments as well as the link. I see that it's been an active topic a couple years back.

I have a variety of reasons why I am a bit trepid when it comes to a contract. I can understand why schools want them, especially when it comes to the kids. The bottom line is it's a business and I can appreciate that fact.

I was honestly thinking about starting up at this place that offered several types of contracts, a 3, 6 and 12 month. The 3 cost more, but I don't mind considering that it give me some flexibility. Especially since I never know when I'll get stuck on travel. I liked the instructors sytle and philosophy, there was a good mix of people there, several were around my my age and the place was well established being there for 13 years boasted the instructor.

I went by on Saturday to sign up and *poof*. Closed for business. So what happens if the school closes it's doors? Then what, especially if you'd paid it forward? I think you're kind of stuck, but at least a 3 month will minimize any financial damage.

I think I need to find a little independant dojo, one that isn't in a national system so to speak.

Thanks again for your thoughts!

[OnlyAnEgg]

Contracts are the main reason I did not return to the TKD studio I enjoyed early on. Moreover, his month-to-month price was twice that of the contract.

I am fortunate to have found the class I am in now. No contracts. Extremely low price and an interested and enjoyable Sensei.

I noticed a difference in the attention the TKD instructor showed to contract vs non-contract students and it was quite dismaying. My Sensei shows the same level of attention to all students. It is the type of attention I would expect from a teacher: a little more time spent with a slower student; more frequent challenges to quicker one.

Good luck with your search,

egg

[terryl965]

Welcome Bandit.

Contacts are a way of trying to guanantee funds with the school to lock people in for a while. My take is simple if you offer a good product and show the student the respect they need they stay without a contract. I hope you find what you atr looking for.
Terry

[DavidCC]

I think the difference is in the overhead. Classes at the YMCA... minimal overhead, so minimal need for the instructor to do any financial planning. A school with it's own location, bills to pay etc... the Instructor needs some kind of stability and predictability. So that's where contracts come in.


I would never sign (or use once I have my own dojo) a contract longer than 12 months.

We use them now (I am an ass't instructor) and they work out well for everyone it seems. We are a military town and so we often have students who are gone for a few months at a time... we have no problem working with them to find a solution: suspend their contract until they return for example. It depends on the school I guess. We could be complate jerks about every little thing and squeeze more money out of people but in the long run that would not be good for the school. One of the values we try to teach is commitment and a contract is just an expression of a committment...
We have 6 and 12 month, the 12 month is $10 cheaper per month (79 vs 69).

[Andrew Green]

They are most often a neccessary method of maintaining the consistant flow of money in order to keep the doors open. Running a school is not cheap.

Having outstanding contracts also makes things easier when dealing with a bank. They are more helpful when you can say I have this much owed to me by contract over the next 6 months, as oppose to I got no guaranteed income over the next 6 months.

They can be abused, and that is waht to wath for. Every contract should have a "How to Cancel" section, and you should be made aware of it before signing.

[searcher]

They are most often a neccessary method of maintaining the consistant flow of money in order to keep the doors open. Running a school is not cheap.

Having outstanding contracts also makes things easier when dealing with a bank. They are more helpful when you can say I have this much owed to me by contract over the next 6 months, as oppose to I got no guaranteed income over the next 6 months.

They can be abused, and that is waht to wath for. Every contract should have a "How to Cancel" section, and you should be made aware of it before signing.
Agreed on all parts!!!!!

[bandit959]

Hey Folks;

Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions. I can understand both perspectives.

But at the end of the day, I have to go with what I feel most comforatble with...what works for *me*. And luckily, I found a no contract school earlier tonight. It's an independant dojo and maybe that's also part of it. The class is a bit younger than me, but I like the instructors style and it's about a 15 minute drive.

BTW, DavidCC, I think that's admirable that you take care of the folks who have to go TDY!

[dubljay]

Glad to hear you found a place to train. The most important thing when considering a dojo is whether or not you feel comfortable there, and no one can tell you that except for you.

[arnisador]

What style did you end up in?

[still learning]

Hello, Looks like you found this (contracts) to be almost everywhere? Every teacher knows students will sign up for class and most will quit after a few months. Very few students will stay to earn a black belt. It takes hard work to reach/earn this belt.

Purpose is to make sure the schools has money to cover the expenses and also to encourage you to stick it out. The longer you stay the more money he will earn from you? Does this make sense?

Our school only do month to month but we do have quarterly and yearly dues if you want it.

Find the one you want and decide if it is worth it? Good luck and Aloha

[bandit959]

I ended up with a Kenpo place of all things. It wasn't really the style I was going for, but there were too many other positives fro me not to try it out. It's close enough to my old style (Gojo Ryu) that I can easily jump back into it, but different enough to challenge me.

And the insturctor is really cool about all the travel that I have to do for work. As long as I can make 4 classes a month, it isn't an issue with him. Of course moving up is problematic, but that really isn't why I wanted to get back into it.

The instructor is really flexible. And I guess that's why the class is a fairly good size. Things might be different if there were only a few people. But so far, I'm really happy... and sore too ;-)

My only regret was waiting so long to get back into it!

[DavidCC]

Hey Folks;

BTW, DavidCC, I think that's admirable that you take care of the folks who have to go TDY!
Omaha has a large USAF presence, if we didn't find a way, the school would suffer. We also have 2 med students who have gone out of the country for months at a time, just because you have a contract doesn't mean you can't be flexible. It's good business and it's the right thing to do.

[tshadowchaser]

Unfortunately contracts are what keep many schools open. With out knowing that the dues are going to be paid it is hard on many to pay the rent.

[Flying Crane]

Sometimes you can find an instructor who keeps low overhead by teaching in the city parks or his own back yard when the weather is good, or in places like the local community college. Sometimes these people can be better instructors, as they are often not trying to make a living thru teaching. When a formal school is opened up, it creates a much stronger obligation to the business side of things, and the teaching quality can suffer because of it. When someone is teaching in their spare time, just because they enjoy it and want to pass on the arts, then the quaility can be better. Just something to consider, although it can be harder to find these guys since they are often not in the yellowpages. I would think a city like Boston might have people like this, tho.

[arnisador]

I ended up with a Kenpo place of all things.

How's this working out?

[JAMJTX]

"Are these contract the norm now? Is it just a location thing?"

They are the norm at schools where money matters most. At these contract schools (aka McDojo) you will also likely find a lot of kids, very young black belts, watered down arts and easy promotions with higher than normal certificate fees. The certificate fees (how much and how often) are also something you should ask a commercial instructor.

Good teachers understand that martial arts are not for everyone and most people quit. (Especially the young kids that fill up the McDojos change thier minds often). They want dedicated people in thier schools and don't want to take time away from dedicated students to teach someone who really does not want to be there. They also care about thier reputation.

Having people locked into a contract who wants to leave is not good for the student, the school or the instructor. The best teachers will never have these kinds of contracts - especially not the kind that they sell to a collection agency and you make your payments to them rather than the school.

[Danny T]

Hello All,
Hello All,
I have a training center and we do "Agreements" (contracts)!
Was opposed for many years to them however, it comes down to commitment. Only 15% of our students are children (under the age of 13) approx 65% are adults (18 on up). Biggest problem we had was students (mostly the adults) not attending. Signed up and trained for 3-4 months and found other things in life got in the way. They would come once a week or sometimes a couple of times a month. Always had an excuse of something came up. We looked very hard at our programs, instructors, schedule of classes, and performed interviews with students and parents. Also had an anonymous questionnaire for them to fill out. The number one reason given by most as to why they found it difficult to continue or make the classes was they didn't have to. Even those who "loved" everything about training, it was the ability to just not go that allow them to make excuses to not train.

So we had developed;
The Agreement of Tuition, Training, and Instruction.

Basically one year of tuition for instruction and training in a particular art for two one hour session per week is X amt of $$. PMATC is committed to instruct and train that art from date XX-XX-2005 to XX-XX-2006 for X amt. The student can pay the tuition up front and receive a discount or by the month. If you don't attend classes the tuition is still owed and must be paid. What happened was attendance increased to a monthly average of 97% and the student enrollment increased by 28%. The only thing we changed was the tuition agreement.

We do have a release clause in case of job loss, disability, or moving out of the area, so there is some flexibility within the agreement. We allow new prospective students to view and participate in any two classes for no charge so they know what they are in for. After that all we want is a commitment from them that they will attend and train for one year. We are committed to provide an excellent training facility, training environment, and instruction to the student which will enhance their learning experience and martial growth. They are committed to attend, learn and train. It is all about commitment!

Since instituting The Agreement we have performed two polls with our students. The first at 4 months and the second at the llth month to learn what caused the increase in attendance and more importantly, the increase in our enrollment. Again the number one answer was the sense of commitment we were asking them to make and our commitment to them and how that commitment pressed them to make classes and to continue. At the end of the first year of using our "Agreement" we had a 98% retention and sign up for year 2.

Contract and Agreements work due to the committment the student must make to themselves as well as the training center.

Danny Terrell
Progressive Martial Arts Training Center
Wing Chun * Muay Thai * Kali * Grappling

[autumn1973]

My school charges monthly. There is some other school nearby that also charges monthly but they were more expensive (with 3 of us going it would have been a stretch financially and that dojo is kind of like a McDojo, heh heh, I like my instructors way of doing things better)
I do remember my husband bringing home a disclaimer type thingy to sign- we may have to hit you in odd places so don't sue us type of thing- which is perfectly okay because sometimes you do get hit in the, um, for lack of a better term...boobs or crotch area and obviously they have to cover themselves but that's all we had to sign, no contract or anything.

Sometimes I wonder if my MA instructor should have contracts, even if it is just quarterly, because it would certainly make life easier for him from a business standpoint.
Half the students show up when they feel like it and I am pretty sure that some of them pay when they feel like it too. I think he just loves to share his knowledge but it is unfair of the other students to keep doing that to him IMO.

[Grenadier]

There's nothing wrong with yearly contracts, as long as the school also allows something that is less than a yearly contract as well. Some people will want to quit after a few months, some even shorter than that.

Many schools offer quarterly contracts (3 months at one time), in addition to the yearly+ contracts, so that all bases are covered.

If a school insists that you have to sign something that is no shorter than a year, then that's where I get wary.

[hongkongfooey]

I have my first class at a Kenpo studio this coming Monday. a week at The class is around 2.5-3.0 hours long, and the price is just $10 a class. Best of all no test fees.

HKF

[TheBattousai]

I hate to see and hear such things happen in the martial arts, but hopefully things will change.

[Fluffy]

Yup and welcome to the group!

The big difference between 1985 and 2005 is the professionalism. The days of running a school month to month are done, in most casses that is. The Professional school is a business, and has to be run as such to keep the doors open. Expect "programs" aka contracts to be out there. It's the norm. Also expect a collection agancy to be collecting the monthly fees, I don't like being both the instructor and the guy squeezing you for your money.

But look out for the downfalls, long contracts - longer than 12 months - not always bad but signing someone off the street to a 36 month contract is should raise a red flag. Look out for hidden fees, if they do not tell you about testing fees or required gear, I would not trust them. Also ask about how aften they test, you do not want the curreculem shoved down your throat, you want time for reflection and practice.

Master Fluffy

[1redcat]

My school charges monthly, although you can pay quarterly or semi-annually and get a price break. The norm around here seems to be a quarterly contract. Testing fees are extra, but at my level are not particularly staggering.

[Kacey]

I think that yearly contracts (or other term lengths) have become more popular for the reasons already stated - commitment, income flow, convenience (autodraft can be a great thing for many bills), and so on. If done properly, as described by some posters, contracts are not a bad thing if, as discussed, there are other options available and there are contract terminations available - if not, you are being scammed - RUN, do not walk, out the door.

There is a McDojo chain in my area which runs on contracts that are worded (more or less) "I, the undersigned, agree to pay $X every month for Y months. In return, IF I attend class at least Z times per month, I will attain X rank". There is no termination clause in these contracts - I knew someone who went who signed up her 10 year-old at one of these places on a 3-year contract, and after a year her daughter developed other interests... a year later, my friend was STILL paying on the contract; it was expensive, but a lot cheaper than the court costs to try to break the contract.

Some years ago, after I received my teacher's license, I met the owner of this chain at a teacher job fair; he was out in the lobby with the Peace Corps and a couple of other businesses that wanted to hire teachers for various reasons, mostly as corporate trainers. I decided to talk to him to see why he was there. What he told me was, for some reason, while he had plenty of students, he didn't seem to have any who were good instructors (go figure:idunno:). So he decided to hire teachers, pay them minimum wage to work out 30 hours a week for 9-12 weeks, test them, assign them a rank, and set them up in franchises as instructors - and he described this plan in a way that made it clear he thought it was perfectly reasonable. I thanked him for his time and never looked back - newer dictionaries should have a picture of his logo as the definition of McDojo.

While I know there must be instructors who use contracts and do so properly, this experience has left me prejudiced against contract establishments. I teach at a YMCA, which has (of all things) a 7-week session; they don't offer any other options for payment - the only options are join the Y and get a discount, or pay the non-member rate for the class - and the Y very carefully sets it up such that the difference between Y membership + class cost is very close to paying the non-member rate, so most of my students are members of the Y, even if they don't use the facility for anything else. If I were instructing as a career, rather than a sideline, I suspect I would do things differently, but as things stand, I like it the way it is.

[Marginal]

Some years ago, after I received my teacher's license, I met the owner of this chain at a teacher job fair; he was out in the lobby with the Peace Corps and a couple of other businesses that wanted to hire teachers for various reasons, mostly as corporate trainers. I decided to talk to him to see why he was there. What he told me was, for some reason, while he had plenty of students, he didn't seem to have any who were good instructors (go figure:idunno:). So he decided to hire teachers, pay them minimum wage to work out 30 hours a week for 9-12 weeks, test them, assign them a rank, and set them up in franchises as instructors - and he described this plan in a way that made it clear he thought it was perfectly reasonable. I thanked him for his time and never looked back - newer dictionaries should have a picture of his logo as the definition of McDojo.


Sounds like Stephen Oliver's Mile High Karate.

[Kacey]

Sounds like Stephen Oliver's Mile High Karate.

Since you mentioned it... yeah, it was. Are you in Denver, or has his, uh, fame spread farther than that?

[jdinca]

We have 4, 8 and 12 month contracts. The longer the contract, the better the price. The 12 month also includes more private lessons.

[arnisador]

We have 4, 8 and 12 month contracts. The longer the contract, the better the price.

Yeah, where I take JKD/BJJ I started out on the month-to-month, then went to the 4 month rolling contract for a $10/month break. I find that a fair deal.

[ldgman1970]

My school does six month and year contracts and you get a better deal if you sign up for a year. The big difference at my school is that you are required to pay the full amount for whatever contract length you sign up for. I was a little shocked by this at first but I think from an administrative and cash flow point of view this makes things a lot easier. You have to remember that most martial arts studios aren't like health clubs where they have thousands of members paying monthly so I can see how cash flow would be a major concern. I also think people are more likely to at least commit for awhile once they have shelled out for six months or a year. My shool does have an introductory program for $35 which includes five private lessons and three group classes and I think this more than ample time for someone decide if they like the school and the style.

[Marginal]

Since you mentioned it... yeah, it was. Are you in Denver, or has his, uh, fame spread farther than that?I'm near Denver, which is close enough since he seems to have a school on every corner, and advertises like mad to boot. There's one of his schools in Boulder, and one recently opened in Lafayette as well.

I'm mainly aware of him because of other message boards and mailing lists. He usually gets mentioned when someone starts talking about contrracts. I've read similar accounts on usenet etc.

[green meanie]

Hey Folks;

Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions. I can understand both perspectives.

But at the end of the day, I have to go with what I feel most comforatble with...what works for *me*. And luckily, I found a no contract school earlier tonight. It's an independant dojo and maybe that's also part of it. The class is a bit younger than me, but I like the instructors style and it's about a 15 minute drive.

BTW, DavidCC, I think that's admirable that you take care of the folks who have to go TDY!

Keep us posted! Tell us what you found and how things are going there.
And welcome aboard! :)

[Fluffy]

Since you mentioned it... yeah, it was. Are you in Denver, or has his, uh, fame spread farther than that?

He's in every MA trade mag I see, full page adds in MA Success and MA Pro. The Denver area is one of the hot spots for TKD, with Master Oliver and the home of the USTF around the corner.

~Fluff

[Kacey]

He's in every MA trade mag I see, full page adds in MA Success and MA Pro. The Denver area is one of the hot spots for TKD, with Master Oliver and the home of the USTF around the corner.

~Fluff

I guess I've been ignoring the ads more successfully than I realized - I didn't notice that Stephen Oliver's rep had spread that far. The extent of the USTF I was aware of, but last I heard they weren't using contracts.

[Fluffy]

We've decided to use 6 month and 1 year contracts (programs) at our new club....

[Fluffy]

I guess I've been ignoring the ads more successfully than I realized - I didn't notice that Stephen Oliver's rep had spread that far. The extent of the USTF I was aware of, but last I heard they weren't using contracts.

Have I asked you if you knew Master Gerry Brown (USTF) out of Greeley (sp)? Forgive me if I already have.........

[Kacey]

Have I asked you if you knew Master Gerry Brown (USTF) out of Greeley (sp)? Forgive me if I already have.........

You haven't asked, but I don't know him - Greeley is 60 or 70 miles from Denver, and, while I've been through there, I haven't stopped in Greeley for anything longer than buying gas. Also, I am not in or affiliated with the USTF, so while I know some of the Denver members from attending some of the same events, I'm not familiar with their membership in general, and not at all outside of the metro area.