Sparring - Sink or swim?

[shesulsa]

Another user posted on another thread how hard and disconcerting it was to start sparring with little knowledge.

How did you start sparring at your school? Did you start early? Did you start after a rank or two? Where you weaned into it by practicing technique first?

[Andrew Green]

When I started I just got tossed into it...

Now, what I do is I start people off with restrictive, but live drills and build into sparring. So there is no one day where someone spars for the first time, they do it right from day one. The rules just get less restrictive as they go.

[Aqua4ever]

We start sparring as soon as our instructor feels you can handle it if you express an early interest (like me) or after your first belt grading (white striped) which is usually within a month or two. I was very nervous at first, but I don't remember traumatic experiances ;) we start every sparring class with basic drills so you learn those while everyone reviews and refines, and then you are allowed to try sparring, always with someone who knows what they are doing. You start slowly and with everyone giving you pointers and then you grow. I love sparring now and love helping "newbies" become accustomed to it.
good thread
Aqua

[shesulsa]

Now, what I do is I start people off with restrictive, but live drills and build into sparring. So there is no one day where someone spars for the first time, they do it right from day one. The rules just get less restrictive as they go.
Kewl. Do you start with techniques and go live with them? or do you start with simple sparring drills (punching, weaving, etc.) - I know you mainly grapple now, so did you start on the ground? More info, please ... :ultracool

[Loki]

Sparring is much like an internship: you work with higher ranking students who adjust their work to your level instead of pummeling you to the ground. You learn it gradually. Heck, when I attend black belt training (plan to resume in October), they still have to go easy on me.

I was hooked fast, I started sparring a month into training with still only a white belt. Some people had better control and slowed down to help me learn, others had worse and went hard. It's a matter of habit to learn to tell someone to slow down.

[Lisa]

I have always been taught a technique first. Had the ability to practice it in a restricted nature with my partner showing little or no resistance to get the "feel" for what we are doing. There is a lot of questions and answers on the floor when we are being taught. Lots of "what if I do this, etc" Once everyone is comfortable with the situation, it will build to live sparring. We have had people uncomfortable at first, they have the option to sit out whenever it has crossed their comfort level. Heck, sometimes I have sat out because I am not sure of the technique I am being taught and it needs to sink in in my brain first. Over time and with practice the technique sinks in. Live sparring is important IMHO even for beginners. It gives them the feel for it and allows them to build on their skill base. Until you feel the resistance of your partner and what they will do to counter, you truly can not understand the technique, at least that is how I see it with grappling and that is just MHO.

[Blindside]

Our sparring preparation is something like "So do you have all the yellow belt basics? Got a cup and mouthpiece? Good, gear up and spar..... him (points to a black belt.)"

Of course the instructors job is not to pummel the student, but to fight just above their level. Personally, I would like to see a bit more prep than that, but thats how we do it. Seems to work out fine in the end.

Lamont

[Andrew Green]

Kewl. Do you start with techniques and go live with them? or do you start with simple sparring drills (punching, weaving, etc.) - I know you mainly grapple now, so did you start on the ground? More info, please ... :ultracool
Works the same for grappling, striking or weapons.

But I'll stick to striking here.

I'd start with a basic technique, like a jab. Teach it static, hitting a pad. Make sure the structure stays clean and the form is good.

Get the feeder to start moving around, get the footwork in there too.

Drop the mits and grab another set of gloves, work the defence. Couple times real slow to get the form, then start moving around and gradually add speed.

Get both people throwing jabs one at a time at random.

Let them double up on it, try to bring in counter punching, slipping, and other jab related things.

Here they are sparring, but with only a jab. Start building in crosses and hooks, then all the rest of the goodies. Eventually they are doing mma sparring

[OnlyAnEgg]

In both disciplines I have experience in, sparring occured first class. In TKD, the black belts sparred along with the rest of us, as well as Samnabim. Same at the Ko Sutemi I am now taking. In TKD we had one sensitive black belt and one brutal one. The KS class has Sensei and a brown belt. Sensei was very instructive. The brown was just happy he had someone his size and gender to tussle with (we have many children and a few adult women). I am told that this time of the year, classes tend to be a little thin d/t vacations.


So, mostly, I swam and sometimes sunk a bit.

egg

[karatekid1975]

In TSD, we weren't allowed to start sparring till our first grading. I was excited about it, at first. But I attended a sparring clinic shortly after my first grading. It was suposed to be just drills, and light contact sparring for the newbies, but this girl kicked me hard in the stomach. I about puked all over her. After that, I hated sparring (fear of getting hit). I would avoid it at all cost, which worked most of the time.

When I started TKD (again, couldn't spar till my first grading), I didn't have a choice in the matter. If you were a yellow belt or above, you sparred. So, I went against my fear and got in there and sparred. I actually didn't do too bad :) I suprised myself.

Now if I don't get hit or a little "ding" it wasn't worth sparring LOL (against BB's that is). With lower ranks, I tone down and help them out. I give them pointers, and combos to work on.

In Jujitsu, my first class was me spending time on the ground after being thrown like a rag doll by my instructor (thank goodness for the previous Judo experience ... The breakfalls came in handy LOL).

[jfarnsworth]

I started sparring on the first day of class. Head instructor said grab someone's gloves and spar him.

[searcher]

I started on the second class. I did not have my equipment at the first class. I prefer that my students start from the very first class. This does not allow them do build up doubts and get scared. I will not allow for hard or heavy contact their first few times sparring, but after they get the hang of it the contact level goes up. My higher ranking students know that if they hurt a junior student then they will have to go the gauntlet.

As the students rank goes up they need to understand that the contact is going to be very hard. I will not promote a student to 2nd Kyu, 1st KYU, or Sho-dan without being able to fight and defend themselves. I pride myself that my sudents can fight and defend themselves well. We take sparring very seriously, just as many do.

[Blindside]

My higher ranking students know that if they hurt a junior student then they will have to go the gauntlet.

What is "the gauntlet?"

Lamont

[Shaolinwind]

My first experience with sparring in kung fu was today in my first intermediate class.
It's closely monitored and we wear lots of pads. The do in fact encourage us to use a particular set of techniques, usually ones they taught earlier in the class.



Another user posted on another thread how hard and disconcerting it was to start sparring with little knowledge.

How did you start sparring at your school? Did you start early? Did you start after a rank or two? Where you weaned into it by practicing technique first?

[OnlyAnEgg]

What is "the gauntlet?"
Merriam-Webster defines a gauntlet as: a double file of men facing each other and armed with clubs or other weapons with which to strike at an individual who is made to run between them.

Last night, we had a similar exercise: one person, say the defender, stood before a line made of the rest of the class. On 'hajime!', the first person in the line stepped in to spar with the defender. Each consecutive start brought a fresh fighter to that person until, one at a time, the entire class had opposed him. Then the first person became the last person in the line and the first person in the line became the defender.

That's sort of a gauntlet, too.

egg

[Blindside]

Thanks Egg.

Actually I know of the historical use of the punishment, I was interested in its use in a modern karate dojo.

Lamont

[Adept]

I started sparring on the first night. As a general rule, the instructor pairs beginners with more experienced reliable students.

[mj-hi-yah]

Great thread and timely for me as I'm taking responsibility for a sparring class starting tonight! :uhohh: :lol: I'm looking forward to it actually, and I want it to be a productive class so I'm interested in all of your ideas and drills - keep them coming please. :asian: The gauntlet sounds interesting! :uhyeah: It sounds scary in a fun way and I think it's important to put some fun into the mix. In our school we start sparring at blue belt. For me as an instructor the challenge will be to meet the needs of all levels from blue to black.

[Eldritch Knight]

We have 10 person gauntlets in kendo, too. Each person entering makes as many attacks against the first person in the gauntlet as possible in 20 seconds. Then they move onto the next person in line, 20 seconds there, and then keep going until they finish off the line. We call it jukkiri, and there are many variations from school to school. Very hardcore, but its usually for our advanced students.

In kendo, it's considered bad form to put on the armor and spar if your basics aren't competent. Even though sparring can be considered the backbone of the art, picking up bad habits shows disrespect to it as a martial art, and doesn't serve to preserve its tradition.

[Shaolinwind]

On similar lines to that, we have a sparring thing they jokingly call mortal combat. A person stands in the center of a circle of people, all of whom will attack when their number is called by an instructor. You in turn must block and be ready for the next attack.


We have 10 person gauntlets in kendo, too. Each person entering makes as many attacks against the first person in the gauntlet as possible in 20 seconds. Then they move onto the next person in line, 20 seconds there, and then keep going until they finish off the line. We call it jukkiri, and there are many variations from school to school. Very hardcore, but its usually for our advanced students.

In kendo, it's considered bad form to put on the armor and spar if your basics aren't competent. Even though sparring can be considered the backbone of the art, picking up bad habits shows disrespect to it as a martial art, and doesn't serve to preserve its tradition.

[arnisador]

We start at a low level, and work our way up.

In arnis, the techniques we practice are the ones we use in sparring; same in JKD. In many arts one practices techniques that perhaps can't be used in sparring (e.g., clawing techniques) or don't work well in such a setting (as opposed to when one is grabbed by the lapels, say). It makes a difference.

[Grenadier]

Since there are many kinds of kumite, I'll just limit my discussion to free-sparring.

I've seen several philosophies carried out at the various schools at which I trained. I've also seen each one work just fine.

At some schools, they'll start you out right was as a white belt. Some sensei will only allow such white belts to go slowly. Others will allow normal speed fighting, and others will even allow full contact, although this is limited to a few select styles.

Some schools will make you wait until you have at least gotten your yellow belt (assuming yellow comes after white). The sensei usually constantly emphasizes that the student should keep things simple, and not try anything complex at this point.

Some schools make you wait until you are at least an advanced student (3rd kyu / brown belt). Their philosophies are that you should be proficient with the techniques first, before applying them.

Which one is the best? I honestly cannot say answer that, since any of the above methods can work just fine, if your methods of teaching are solid. The ones who follow Mas Oyama's methods (full contact at white belt) usually end up being a good group of karateka, and can refine their techniques along the way. Those who wait until the techniques are already refined do just fine from the start. Who's to say who is right or wrong as long as it works?

The way I see it, if the sensei is following a proven cirriculum, and is a reasonably good teacher, then I would certainly trust him to decide when is the right time for someone.

[searcher]

Merriam-Webster defines a gauntlet as: a double file of men facing each other and armed with clubs or other weapons with which to strike at an individual who is made to run between them.

Last night, we had a similar exercise: one person, say the defender, stood before a line made of the rest of the class. On 'hajime!', the first person in the line stepped in to spar with the defender. Each consecutive start brought a fresh fighter to that person until, one at a time, the entire class had opposed him. Then the first person became the last person in the line and the first person in the line became the defender.

That's sort of a gauntlet, too.

egg
That is pretty close. The only difference is that the one that screwed up is always the one going down the line sparring with the different fighters. This person keeps going until they have found the error of their ways and know better next time.

[Raewyn]

We start sparring once we reach our second belt rank, and we are pretty much thrown into the thick of it really, which can be very scary escpecially for those who have really no idea on what they are doing (that would be me). Now even though I am higher up in the belt ranks I still hate sparring, so I don't think I have really learnt anything other than the fact it can be alot safer to sparr higher ranked people then lower ranked people as the higher ranks know more about what they are doing and have more control!

[CuongNhuka]

In Coung Nhu it is acctuly against the rules to start sparring untill green belt (thats the third rank by the way). Getting to green belt takes normally about 1 - 1 and a half years. Though every stlye does things differnitly. Anouther example in Coung Nhu when you get to brown belt (fourth) you can start to sweep other brown and abouve. A more "normal" thing is at black you can punch to the face. Brown belt will take about three years, and black six. Hard huh (joke)? One of our students is a 5th dan in Tae Kwon Do and says that a black belt in Tae Kwon Do is about as hard as a green belt in Coung Nhu. and she's a two black stripe, you have to test for stripes in Coung Nhu by the way.
Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John
sorry about getting off topic

[Andrew Green]

Imagine signing up for Tennis and being told it's against the rules to have a match until at least a years traininghttp://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/nixweiss.gif

[CuongNhuka]

Mr. Green, being as polite as possible, are you talking to me or someone else. I add the polite as possible because last time I asked this question to some one they assumed I was being rude.
Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

[Andrew Green]

No one in particular ;)

[CuongNhuka]

Well, to add to conversation nothing more, tennis is just tennis. Martial arts aren't all sparring, or all fighting, or all forms, or all any one thing in particular. Martial arts a way of defending and perfecting yourself, mentally, physically, spiritually. True you could say and do the same with tennis. But many old, old, old schools of martial arts didn't do much of any sparring. Most modern schools will, but martial arts are not just about sparring. Tennis is mostly about playing a game. True you have to do much other play games, but every thing you do when you play the game, you practice outside games, and vice-versa. With martial arts a lot of what you do when you practice outside the ring is not what you do in it. I have to go now, but we'll talk latter.



Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,



John

[Andrew Green]

But many old, old, old schools of martial arts didn't do much of any sparring.
Can you provide any Primary sources that show this?

[arnisador]

Imagine signing up for Tennis and being told it's against the rules to have a match until at least a years training
An interesting point!

[CuongNhuka]

Mr. Green, no I cannot give examples of my comment that many old schools didn't do much sparring, come to think of it I probably shouldn't have put that down. As for Arnisador, once again tennis is a sport for most of the people involved. Martial arts are a way of life. It’s like comparing the growth of potatoes and turnips. They can be similar, but they simply are different things. Most of the Wing Chun and other kung fu schools around were I life do similar to what coung nhu does; you can’t spar until you have a good feel for the techniques.

Now if you're experienced in another style (tae kwon do people are pretty common cross trainers in Coung Nhu) you're allowed to spar when you start. But at Green Belt you have to spar in class, and Brown Belt you have to spar at tests. I hope this stays casual conversation and doesn't end a verbal slug fight.



Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,



John

[dubljay]

While I agree with the concept of making sure a student has a good touch on basics before being thrown into the ring I feel that a year is a rather long time to wait. I've heard that the first 6 months to year is the most dangerous time for a beginning martial artist. Why? Because they are developing new reflexes, ones that may be opposite of 'natural' pre-existing ones. Like learning to step into an attack to jam up the opponent, not many inexperienced, untrained people react that way, the usual reaction would be to drop back, to get out of the way. Sparring will help smooth out these reflexes, especially if the sparring sessions are with a seasoned instructor with plenty of sparring experience. A careful balance must be maintained when teaching a newbie how to spar; you must ensure that no bad habits are formed, while simultaneously encouraging the positive things.


Just my opinion

-Josh

[CuongNhuka]

Good point I suppose. Either way, I suppose it is mostly a matter of style, school, and personal oppoin. But that is how we do things in the Coung Nhu world, and we can be kinda crazy at times.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

[CuongNhuka]

Almost forgot, sparring, Randori, boxing, wrestling, sticky hands, and so forth may help the way you react to situations, but it is not the same. And the way I understand what you just said Mr. Doublejay, you think it will. Any form of freestyle has rules that restrict your actions. Sparring may help you do some things in a fight, but the only true way to make sure you react correctly in a fight is to fight. Sparring and so forth will help, but only so much. They are not the same. And it took me over a year to build the muscle memory to do much of anything in a sparring, I’d be afraid of how I would do in fight. Sparring and so forth takes allot of muscle memory, which can take a very long time to build. If you practice only the moves for a good long time until you can do them with any skill at all. o.k. I think that is all might have forgotten something else (joke).

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,



John

[dubljay]

You are right, sparring is not fighting. But the confidence that can be built up in sparring will give a student faith in their technique. Simply put if the person doesn't belive that they can fight, they have already lost. Sparring doesn't make good fighters, techniques don't make good fighters, drills don't make good fighters. Its the combination of those, and the confidence of those skills that make a good fighter.

[Andrew Green]

You are right, sparring is not fighting.
And lab mice aren't people, but I'd imagine most people would prefer that it be tested on the mice, before on them.

The mat is our lab, everything should be put to the test there.

[kenpo tiger]

On similar lines to that, we have a sparring thing they jokingly call mortal combat. A person stands in the center of a circle of people, all of whom will attack when their number is called by an instructor. You in turn must block and be ready for the next attack.
In our school, that's called 'no mind'. It's good real training in that you have no idea of what to expect, as in the real world.

I started martial arts in a style where sparring was taught from white belt, each session beginning with drills and then pairing off with a person who wanted to practice what you did, i.e., just basic drills, light contact, or all-out sparring. One could tailor one's training. Drawback: since it was voluntary as to what you wanted to practice, a lot of people stuck to Level 1 - drills - and thus deprived themselves of the full benefit of sparring.

Been in tkd - sparring in that particular dojang was voluntary. Watched people spar for the first time on their black belt test.

In my kenpo school, I began sparring when I earned my purple belt. We are required to have a certain number of hours' experience sparring before we are considered for testing for black. Again, it's voluntary as to how many sparring classes one attends, but you'll be Brown I a long long time if you don't come to spar. And -- one deprives oneself of the 'real' aspect of their training. Our master instructor teaches sparring utilizing our kenpo self defense techniques (not just a free-for-all in the ring), which really puts things into perspective. Like a chess game, we have to 'condition' our opponent into thinking we're attacking one body part when our target was really somewhere else all along.

As to having women in your sparring class. Benefits us tremendously, since the chances are we will be attacked by a man, not another woman. Benefits you males also, since our femaleness is our best disguise -- teaches you to never underestimate your opponent.:asian:

[CuongNhuka]

Good points Doublejay and Mr. Green. But like I saide earlier, it seams to be a matter of style, school, instructer, and personal oppoin. And to kempo tiger, that last line is pretty funny (and not I'm being sarcatisic and don't think you could do anything to me, cause you could probably kick my butt in no time). But keep in mind that most of the people who have beat me up, not including sparring and the like, were girls. They also tend to be short and/or attractive. but thats really just me.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

[beauty_in_the_sai]

After the first two classes, I got thrown into it. My opponent was only allowed to lightly tap me, but I was scared all the same. He was alot bigger and older than me. So there I was with my little white belt at 14, trying to fight a huge blue belt. It was a bundle of laughs for everyone else....and now for me too.


PS. Andrew Green, nice ninja chick picture. He's cute!

[Andrew Green]

PS. Andrew Green, nice ninja chick picture. He's cute!
It's a Penguin thatnk you very much :p

[kenpo tiger]

<snip> And to kempo tiger, that last line is pretty funny (and not I'm being sarcatisic and don't think you could do anything to me, cause you could probably kick my butt in no time). But keep in mind that most of the people who have beat me up, not including sparring and the like, were girls. They also tend to be short and/or attractive. but thats really just me.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John
Ah John. No offense taken on my part. After all, being short and attractive is an asset, is it not? Sounds like you didn't mind at all. BUT--- the point here is that many guys do tend to underestimate [short, attractive] :) women.

[Shu2jack]

ATA for the most part standarizes what schools do when it comes to sparring. We try to "build people up" to sparing. First it is forms to get the basic foundation of technique down so we don't have people just flailing out attacks. We complement it with one-steps to help give students an idea of distance and how close they need to be to execute a certain attack. The infamous "camo" belt is when sparring is required, but most students begin sparring the rank below that to get the used to sparring.

As for contact, it varies from school to school and in age groups. My school has the kids (6-12) at "light" contact at the beginner ranks and up to slightly below moderate contact at black belt. With 13 year olds and above; it is light contact with the new students and we gradually work our way up to "moderate" contact with black belts going "hard" contact if they choose to. It is pretty much left up to each person. Some green belts want to hit hard with the black belts and that is fine. Some blue belts don't want to hit as hard and that is fine to.

[Gemini]

I started as a yellow belt. The bare minimum requirement in our school. I was hooked and have done it ever since. Now I teach it.

Back then we were just thrown into it. Now, students must demonstrate a certain level of acheivement in knowledge of their range, control of power, concept of timing and degree of conditioning before they allowed to enter sparring class. Because people develop at different rates, there is no set belt level.